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NATO
United States459 Posts
The toss doesn't even have to hide that they're going voids - I scout it every time, build up marines and vikings and still lose. What do I do? They kill vikings so fast I can't even get my scvs to start repairing. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/5690 http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/5974 Maybe vikings need a better moving shot? They really decelerate a lot when they shoot.  | ||
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Skvid
Lithuania751 Posts
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YoureFired
United States822 Posts
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mrlie3
Canada350 Posts
Just think of it as 2 DTs or 4 Banshees or 6 Mutalisks that you can never ever ever stop, even after proper scouting. -.- I'd say start your build preemptively for anti-VR for now and wait for patch 13... | ||
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Shade692003
Canada702 Posts
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krowe
United States184 Posts
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mrlie3
Canada350 Posts
On May 20 2010 13:37 krowe wrote: I use gretorp's ghost build, have never been beaten by void ray since. I've tried ghost build as well but it seems toss will switch to mass stalkers once he sees 1 ghost and it doesn't seem to work since you are behind in marauder counts. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
When he did attack, you had 3 marines and 2 marauders. He could have just walked in with his 4 stalkers, and that would have been enough. anyway, don't let the void ray charge, attack it immediately. There was a moment when he let it's charge die, and you had 5 marines, so you could have killed it then, but you let it charge up again before attacking. Don't do that. | ||
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QueueQueue
Canada1000 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123413 | ||
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PROJECTILE
United States226 Posts
Are you serious? Have you rewatched your own replays? There's massive gaps in your macro and micro in both of these games that have nothing to do with void rays being imbalanced. In fact, in neither game did you really engage with both vikings and marines heavily. The only times you did engage (on scrap station) you: the first time managed to hold them off temporarily, and the second time, attempted to attack 6 or so fully charged vikings with an equal number of vikings and less than 5 marines. That is not how it works. On scrap station, your opponent went forge and built 4 cannons FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER. That's a huge mineral gap, you honestly should have finished him off with tank/marine/viking in under 10 minutes. Then, on top of that, you never scouted him for several minutes until you FINALLY scan him and see he's going 2 stargate with a fleet beacon. That either means a)carrier b)mass void rays with upgrade c)mothership. VIKINGS COUNTER ALL 3. Your next move after scouting this was to...build 2 medivacs? You had 2 starports, one with a reactor, and you built medivacs? The reason vikings own mass void rays (to a certain extent) is that you can easily outproduce him and you can have a sizable marine force when he tries to engage your vikings that will tear them to pieces. You had neither. You were never ahead in viking:void ray ratio and only once did you only once had more than 10 marines (interestingly enough, he backed off in this case). Also, the fact that you FE'd that early is totally nonsensical, and you'd get run over by any decent 1 basing toss with pretty much any build he chooses doing that. Sorry for being harsh, but you making statements like "Marines + Viking certainly doesn't work." when there's holes the size of lake michigan in your play is kind of silly. | ||
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GoodCat1
Israel266 Posts
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NATO
United States459 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
SCV scouts + scans should tell you a lot of info, even if you don't scan the SG directly. Toss can't afford to go 3gate > SG for VR rush, and unless he spreads out his stuff extremely well you should be able to get an idea of what he is trying to do. There are some times where you aren't able to tell, and in that case you have to play really defense and expect everything. Yes it puts you in a disadvantage, but more often than not you will be able to guess what he is doing and if you defend properly you will usually be ahead. For example, the recent Stats vs Flash game. Did you see how many turrets Flash made when they proved to be useless? He had no choice, and some times you just have to accept that. In SC2 it's a lot easier though, because of how fast you can get an OC. | ||
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hellz.atalvez
United States25 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:07 NATO wrote: So everyone yelling at me because they are scared of a void ray nerf... are you suggesting every game vs toss I just fast tech to starport, and forget the fact that every other strategy will decimate me? Please calm down all they are suggesting is you scout earlier (i recommend around 12/13 supply when ur first rax finishes or early) but please do not act as though the forum-goers are yelling at you when you refuse to accept their advice | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
it helps to put a turret down and sit the viking near it, thus the viking can hit the void ray and if they chase the viking they'll get shot at by the turret. | ||
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Brett
Australia3822 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:07 NATO wrote: So everyone yelling at me because they are scared of a void ray nerf... are you suggesting every game vs toss I just fast tech to starport, and forget the fact that every other strategy will decimate me? Why did you post a request for advice/help/information like this if you're not going listen to it the advice/help/information you get? Particularly if it's useful given your current outlook... I suggest you re-read the options suggested and re-evaluate your own play. If you want to sit there and wait for a void ray nerf that may not even come, that's your prerogative but its a pretty pointless thread. The smart gamers will be looking for ways to combat it with what they have. They're already doing it. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
Have your First rax crank marines non-stop and make it the last one you do an Add-on to. I go off 1 gas to increase mineral return for lots of rines. My push is with +1 and Shield upgrade- that's when I expand. Your push is like 80% Marine 20% Marauder. It's great vs Rays and Immo- the last thing you want to see is a gang of Stalkers, with a few Sentries for Guradian and Zealots. If you see that back off and add Marauders/Tech Labs. | ||
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NitroN7
Canada18 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:21 DuneBug wrote: uhh it's hard to directly counter void rays with vikings unless you have more of them than they do... it helps to put a turret down and sit the viking near it, thus the viking can hit the void ray and if they chase the viking they'll get shot at by the turret. And due to reactors, and Vikings being cheaper, AND support from marines, it's very easy to accomplish that. | ||
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krowe
United States184 Posts
On May 20 2010 13:38 mrlie3 wrote: I've tried ghost build as well but it seems toss will switch to mass stalkers once he sees 1 ghost and it doesn't seem to work since you are behind in marauder counts. Well if you do the build right, as you work your way into starport for medivacs, by then you should have a bunch of marauders, you only need 3-4 ghosts max for emp and sniper shot, then have the marines and marauders ready. I would say the upgrades are really important as well, emp and stim together really annihilate his army. | ||
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NATO
United States459 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:21 hellz.atalvez wrote: Please calm down all they are suggesting is you scout earlier (i recommend around 12/13 supply when ur first rax finishes or early) but please do not act as though the forum-goers are yelling at you when you refuse to accept their advice Thank you for remaining calm. Scouting wasn't the problem, because in either case I noticed this very early. The problem is knowing what to do in response. Thanks to everyone who pointed out the ghost build, I am looking into that now. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
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NATO
United States459 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:23 Brett wrote: Why did you post a request for advice/help/information like this if you're not going listen to it the advice/help/information you get? Particularly if it's useful given your current outlook... I suggest you re-read the options suggested and re-evaluate your own play. If you want to sit there and wait for a void ray nerf that may not even come, that's your prerogative but its a pretty pointless thread. The smart gamers will be looking for ways to combat it with what they have. They're already doing it. I am simply complaining about the two people who were unhelpful. I am sorry I had not gotten around to thanking those who were. Thanks to everyone who suggested the ghost build again, I am looking into that. It is not helpful to me to just say I am a noob and don't understand the basics of the game. Obviously I am not pro, but I am not 1500+ gold from being a noob as well. I am not suggesting a nerf of any kinda, simply that it seems those responding emotionally (resorting to near-name calling) are scared of such. And to you, thank you for not simply joining in the trolling, but trying to get this conversation back on track. | ||
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NATO
United States459 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:31 Luddite wrote: before trying anything fancy like fast ghosts, I'd really recommend just building more marines. When I initially encountered this, I tried responding with a lot of marines. They all got toasted because of the rays range, shield regen, cliffs, and ample buildings to charge on. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/3220 So after getting completely decimated doing that, I have been trying other things. | ||
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Orangu
Canada198 Posts
in the first game you should have scouted him and known exactly what he was doing as he had 0 units up until like 6-7 mins in, now in this game he actually placed his cannons pretty poorly and you could have killed his workers with like a marine but assuming his base was properly protected there was no need to take the island expansion since against voids its actually much more dangerous than taking your nat and you get your eco boost faster. to deal with the voids you did fine against the initial attack other than using stim a little inappropriately and moving too close to the edge, you can sit back and chill and let him expose his voids before stimming and attacking. I think you did lose this game since you tried to drop him while you didn't know where his voids were which then killed your base, its fine to scout around find them and then send a harassment drop a bit later on or just sit back and expand as he does have map control with so much money into those base destroyers. In the second game on DO i think you just tried to expand too fast on that map, i mean if you can get away with it great but here it obviously backfired, generally i fully expect some sort of air attack so i focus on defending which i do really by just getting a couple rax and constant production of marines and then getting starport with reactor and pump out some vikings and i find i generally have no problem with voids. In fact here is a replay of me vs a P going 2 stargate voids into expand and HTs, now i did lose this game but not to the voids instead mostly due to the fact that i forgot stim and then instead of microing my army during the first fight i was freaking out about how i forgot stim lol, so bad i know. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/5985 | ||
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never_Nal
Costa Rica676 Posts
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NATO
United States459 Posts
On May 20 2010 15:03 TangJuice wrote: Hey watched your replays and i noticed a couple things, in the first game you should have scouted him and known exactly what he was doing as he had 0 units up until like 6-7 mins in, now in this game he actually placed his cannons pretty poorly and you could have killed his workers with like a marine but assuming his base was properly protected there was no need to take the island expansion since against voids its actually much more dangerous than taking your nat and you get your eco boost faster. to deal with the voids you did fine against the initial attack other than using stim a little inappropriately and moving too close to the edge, you can sit back and chill and let him expose his voids before stimming and attacking. I think you did lose this game since you tried to drop him while you didn't know where his voids were which then killed your base, its fine to scout around find them and then send a harassment drop a bit later on or just sit back and expand as he does have map control with so much money into those base destroyers. In the second game on DO i think you just tried to expand too fast on that map, i mean if you can get away with it great but here it obviously backfired, generally i fully expect some sort of air attack so i focus on defending which i do really by just getting a couple rax and constant production of marines and then getting starport with reactor and pump out some vikings and i find i generally have no problem with voids. In fact here is a replay of me vs a P going 2 stargate voids into expand and HTs, now i did lose this game but not to the voids instead mostly due to the fact that i forgot stim and then instead of microing my army during the first fight i was freaking out about how i forgot stim lol, so bad i know. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/5985 Hey, thanks so much, that was fairly helpful. I do understand my mistake in the first game - dropping when I didn't know where his voids were. I think I was just so fed up with dealing with them, and I knew I had a bigger army, I just wanted to end it. Can you go more into the details on how I managed the units I did have? I felt like it was still really hard to defend against void rays even though I was building the "direct counter." I feel like I usually have to manage units that are soft countered to make them effective, but direct counters just kinda work on their own (for other cases, obviously to a certain extent). For instance: Should I leave buildings to give me vision, or is that just charge fodder? How far should I keep my marines back when waiting, so I can engage without losing range instantly? When should I stim - when I first see the rays go in? Or maybe wait til he seems committed? Maybe I did something wrong, but on the DO game, I felt like I was getting starport as fast as reasonably possible without going double gas. I think I built fact when the gas was available, and then did the reactor trick to get instant reactor on my starport. Sadly his voids came right when they started producing. Obviously some marines instead of the command center might have helped, but I thought I could get enough vikings fast enough. | ||
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earky
United States87 Posts
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palanq
United States761 Posts
it might be difficult not to lose anything, but you'll probably be okay and perhaps ahead, since VR is pretty expensive. the toss ground army should be weaker than usual after the void rays are fended off, so consider doing some timing push once you have enough marines. at the very least you can force the void rays to come back home to defend, perhaps? | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Orangu
Canada198 Posts
On May 20 2010 15:14 NATO wrote: Hey, thanks so much, that was fairly helpful. I do understand my mistake in the first game - dropping when I didn't know where his voids were. I think I was just so fed up with dealing with them, and I knew I had a bigger army, I just wanted to end it. Can you go more into the details on how I managed the units I did have? I felt like it was still really hard to defend against void rays even though I was building the "direct counter." I feel like I usually have to manage units that are soft countered to make them effective, but direct counters just kinda work on their own (for other cases, obviously to a certain extent). For instance: Should I leave buildings to give me vision, or is that just charge fodder? How far should I keep my marines back when waiting, so I can engage without losing range instantly? When should I stim - when I first see the rays go in? Or maybe wait til he seems committed? Maybe I did something wrong, but on the DO game, I felt like I was getting starport as fast as reasonably possible without going double gas. I think I built fact when the gas was available, and then did the reactor trick to get instant reactor on my starport. Sadly his voids came right when they started producing. Obviously some marines instead of the command center might have helped, but I thought I could get enough vikings fast enough. Hey, so yah voidrays are a very strong unit so its going to be normal to feel very pressured by them until you get very comfortable defending against them, that being said really just try and feel things out over the course of a lot of games, its very hard to say the exact best way to defend since there are so many variations that are possible right now and then i am by no means an expert and could easily just not know something. As far as i can tell its good to keep your buildings back to leave space for your units to maneuver and not get picked at, keep your marines and vikings in separate control groups and try and keep your vikings in front of your marines scouting around to spot for em and abuse the range advantage if he tries to poke in then if he does attack the vikings pull them back a bit while stimming the marines and attack em, unless the P has good control and attention the voids will follow the vikings into your marines, also try and keep both optimally positioned such that if he wants to attack anything he has to fly over land, now obviously this is not always going to be possible so generally your goal is to take as little damage as possible while keeping at your macro and then picking off the voids when you can, you shouldn't feel like you HAVE to kill off ALL of the voids right as they start attacking you, just chill macro and defend and eventually you will get enough stuff to shut it down completely at which point he will have sunk all this money into voids early on, which is really very costly off of 1 base, and is usually a lead into an expansion where you can attack and kill him with your 2 bases while he is just getting his 2nd up. Now on a map like scrapstation or DO where mass voids could actually work it might be a good idea to get an engbay up and get turrets with the +1 range upgrade and cluster them in groups of 2/3 in key spots in your base along with some marines/vikings to help defend while you push since the ground distance is so long while the air distance is so short between bases on those maps, or you could also just opt to expand a lot while defending and harassing with drops/hellions/reapers if he sticks to mass voids. on pretty much all other maps the ground distance is so short that if he sticks to mass voids just go kill em. | ||
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hellz.atalvez
United States25 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:31 Luddite wrote: before trying anything fancy like fast ghosts, I'd really recommend just building more marines. The problem with mass marine is that voids can run in snipe a marine take 0 damage to hp while the shields suck it up regen for 20sec and run in and do it till you're dead all the while stopping your expo and opening up their's... ghosts cut the shields down and either a) force the rays to back off b) destroy them opening up your expo or even a counter push depending on the situation | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
Or you can get 1 starport and get 1 viking and siege before expanding, or you can open ghost marine. | ||
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AJ-
United States316 Posts
Beating VR openings (this is the part that you care about): 1st rax constantly build to 4 rines -> reactor -> continue rine production - i've had some close calls with this but it times well defending 1stargate VR attacks, but i have never defended a 2stargate attack although i don't know if that is possible to do lol (end direct answer) Rest of the build (this part is extra aka you can stop reading) Banshee+cloak to exploit warp and star tech's 0 detection and robo's lack of anti-air. i tech as i mass marine - this usually ends up (1) harassing, keeps the toss in his base making stalkers (2) winning outright or (3) forcing an all in push - (3) sucks but hopefully i have scouted and have added enough bunkers to survive what i see coming Transition into biotank key sidenotes: - i research medivac energy before i go into reactor port and move the factor to the tech lab for tanks or add a rax to it for earlier stim/shields, this is situational - i go heavy on the medivacs+marine because rines do massive damage if they are upgraded and kept alive and tanks eat up the stalkers i've force him to make. MMtank also does fine against anything the toss can throw at you as long as you kept up in macro (tanks for colossi/templar - marines against air/immortals) - you can substitute tanks for marauders if that's easier for you or if you like marauders but i find them to be weak substitutes - (1) tanks hit harder and shoot farther (3) marauders can be exploited by FF+colossi or templars, and (3) tanks and medivacs give you a better balance of resources than MMM so you can scan without having your gas skyrocket Add Ghosts emps always a good choice against toss and easy access to nukes lets you be mobile and devastating if you're too afraid to unseige and lose your position. the eventual ghost+tank combo gives you a devastating 1-2 punch for your fights - this is last because of the i prioritize gas to medivacs and tanks, as i get more bases i can afford this tech but you can make your own build with whatever transitions you want I've had a lot of success with this. Good luck moving up the ladder! | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:07 NATO wrote: So everyone yelling at me because they are scared of a void ray nerf... are you suggesting every game vs toss I just fast tech to starport, and forget the fact that every other strategy will decimate me? Actually, if you watch the latest Day[9] Daily, he talks about how flexible 1rax1fact1port is as an opening, and how it has the flexibility to decently face any build other than fast immortals (and even then, can win with some good micro). | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
For example: 3 vikings with no micro(not even focus fire) beat 2 void rays and 2 of the vikings survive, and the vikings are notably cheaper - 450/225 vs 500/300, have a lower build time and can be double built, so even just vikings rape void rays easily. If you add marines it becomes even worse for the void rays, since they can't take advantage of their range against marines and marines are even more cost effective against them than vikings are, due to being light armored, small and cheap. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
On May 20 2010 17:35 TheYango wrote: Actually, if you watch the latest Day[9] Daily, he talks about how flexible 1rax1fact1port is as an opening, and how it has the flexibility to decently face any build other than fast immortals (and even then, can win with some good micro). You can actually hold immortal with a bunker at your ramp with siege and enough marines. Don't even need to micro ^^ | ||
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Viruuus
Germany451 Posts
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zephon
France26 Posts
Terrans can build 2 starports with reactors and pump up mass vikings very quickly and actually EMP+microed vikings beats VR very hard. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On May 20 2010 17:26 hellz.atalvez wrote: The problem with mass marine is that voids can run in snipe a marine take 0 damage to hp while the shields suck it up regen for 20sec and run in and do it till you're dead all the while stopping your expo and opening up their's... ghosts cut the shields down and either a) force the rays to back off b) destroy them opening up your expo or even a counter push depending on the situation I think the OP was mainly just talking about how to defend against early void rushes though, so there's only 1 or 2 void rays, and there's no way to get ghosts out fast enough unless you really rush them. | ||
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zephon
France26 Posts
On May 20 2010 18:24 Luddite wrote: I think the OP was mainly just talking about how to defend against early void rushes though, so there's only 1 or 2 void rays, and there's no way to get ghosts out fast enough unless you really rush them. Terrans should always have 1 ghost in their army in PvT (no matter what strat the Terran is going to). And ghost can be tech very quicker than VR, no? | ||
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shawabawa
United Kingdom417 Posts
On May 20 2010 18:34 zephon wrote: Terrans should always have 1 ghost in their army in PvT (no matter what strat the Terran is going to). And ghost can be tech very quicker than VR, no? For ghost: barracks/tech lab/ghost academy/ghost for voidray: gateway/cyber/stargate/voidray I'm pretty sure rushing straight to ghost with only one barracks will get you fucked vs a lot of builds, whereas protoss can usually comfortably go stargate after 1 gate. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 20 2010 18:37 shawabawa wrote: For ghost: barracks/tech lab/ghost academy/ghost for voidray: gateway/cyber/stargate/voidray I'm pretty sure rushing straight to ghost with only one barracks will get you fucked vs a lot of builds, whereas protoss can usually comfortably go stargate after 1 gate. The difference is that Terran can concurrently add their tech lab and ghost academy, while Gateway/Cyber/Stargate have to be added in succession. Also, the main bottleneck in making ghosts is gas--getting more barracks and pumping marines is very feasible. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On May 20 2010 18:34 zephon wrote: Terrans should always have 1 ghost in their army in PvT (no matter what strat the Terran is going to). And ghost can be tech very quicker than VR, no? you CAN, yes. however it's generally not a good idea to be like "gotta get ghosts as fast possible! ghosts are the key!" You'll die to any sort of normal timing attack. | ||
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araged
Czech Republic189 Posts
Doing that ghost build is worth once your opponent knows what's he doing, or you are certain that you can transition out of it / execute it properly. Getting ghost academy and ghosts early on is pretty damn expensive and denies early starport. | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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shammythefox
United Kingdom286 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:07 NATO wrote: So everyone yelling at me because they are scared of a void ray nerf... are you suggesting every game vs toss I just fast tech to starport, beacuse every other toss strategy will lose to DDDDD fixt for truth | ||
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NATO
United States459 Posts
Haha, I actually agree with this. I think there's a problem in PvT right now, because void ray is almost the only viable strategy. This makes me sad. Me thinks P could use some buffs in other units, or possibly gateway build time that isn't so ridiculously long. | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:27 NitroN7 wrote: And due to reactors, and Vikings being cheaper, AND support from marines, it's very easy to accomplish that. exactly. void rays (AS CURRENTLY USED) are not a good strategy. they have never worked on the asia server, and after terrans stop crying and start countering it right they will never lose. i play terran btw. | ||
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aust1nz
United States28 Posts
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Happy Frog
Australia490 Posts
I just wanted to assure you that we're looking into this and we're monitoring this unit closely." link | ||
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Percutio
United States1672 Posts
Also don't be afraid to kill zealots with Vikings if you lose the ground war badly, because losing the ground war will get way less of your army and base killed than losing the air war, and don't forget to repair the Vikings. I wouldn't suggest marines because sentries do so much to help void rays beat marines, especially charged void rays. | ||
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ahcho00
United States220 Posts
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Cynthedic
United States34 Posts
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
It looks like you are opening for a marauder/marine opening early, and then transitioning into Vikings/ general air in the midgame. As Terran, I almost always open with rines off of a reactor, fast tech to ghosts and Vikings, and then back-tech to marauders in the later midgame and push, and I have a nearly 90% win ratio vs. toss. also, if it makes you feel better, VR's are getting nerfed in the next patch, while rines/rauders are getting buffed because stim is cheaper. | ||
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NATO
United States459 Posts
On May 21 2010 14:51 Cynthedic wrote: This thread should've ended when somebody posted you link to gretorps strat. have you been using them? results? This requires a lot of changes to what I do, and my practice partner wanted to try their own things, so I only got to try it to some degree. If there is a good (1400+ plat) player (my current partner is 1700+) willing to help me with this, I would be much appreciative. | ||
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torfteufel
Germany86 Posts
just dont skip marines and you are in perfect shape, because thats the only reason this build even exists. take your expo and an easy win.... | ||
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PoD
Canada45 Posts
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NATO
United States459 Posts
On May 21 2010 14:59 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: I think the math works out to be about 4 marines + 1 viking = 1 VR (and the VR get totally raped) It looks like you are opening for a marauder/marine opening early, and then transitioning into Vikings/ general air in the midgame. As Terran, I almost always open with rines off of a reactor, fast tech to ghosts and Vikings, and then back-tech to marauders in the later midgame and push, and I have a nearly 90% win ratio vs. toss. also, if it makes you feel better, VR's are getting nerfed in the next patch, while rines/rauders are getting buffed because stim is cheaper. No....that doesn't make me feel better. I wanted to learn how to overcome this, not have Blizzard screw Toss again. Terran is already too powerful against them, which is why I think all Toss players resorted to using this strategy. | ||
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Z3kk
4099 Posts
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PoD
Canada45 Posts
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rbkl
772 Posts
Sorry if this has been rehosted, but what does this mean? If we are going to rename our characters, possible ladder reset? | ||
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On May 21 2010 16:39 rbkl wrote: "Removed identifier from the character naming process and added the ability to refer friends for invitation into your party or lobby." Sorry if this has been rehosted, but what does this mean? If we are going to rename our characters, possible ladder reset? welcome to the wrong thread. please take off your shoes. | ||
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Curio
3 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On May 21 2010 15:33 NATO wrote: No....that doesn't make me feel better. I wanted to learn how to overcome this, not have Blizzard screw Toss again. Terran is already too powerful against them, which is why I think all Toss players resorted to using this strategy. Jesus, what a bunch of chicken-little fairweather posters. Go look at any of the current tournaments going on, Protoss does way, way better than Terran, and has a much larger winshare against Terran on BNet. | ||
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ahcho00
United States220 Posts
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DarthHalo2
United States19 Posts
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
It is because your micro and positioning is bad Think of it like sc1 2 hat mutas, if you got bad marine micro, and hes got good muta micro, obviously you are going to lose | ||
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Satallgeese
United States239 Posts
This is how. Void rays, while very powerful, are really slow to massively produce. If you scout a stargate and suspect voidrays, then switch all rax to marines IMMEDIATELY. Normally, Toss get excited once they get their first ray, and try to rush with only one. If you keep your marines moving and spread out, you can quickly counter it before it gets anywhere near your min line. Also, vikings are the best counter to void rays, one Starport with reactor pumps out two vikings in the time it takes for one. Those vikings plus rines destroy rays very easily. Also, you HAVE TO PUSH TOSS. If you allow him to get crit mass rays, then its your own fault because there is no direct counter to X amount of rays. The best counter to rays is to not let him get them. In this replay, I went Bioball, he tried to get a ray to harass but my timing spotted it so I switched to marine + viking. After discouraging his voidrays by patroling my base and sniping one or two, I switched back to bio ball and IMMEDIATELY PUSHED to force him to dedicate his mins to a ground army. He stopped my push, but because I rallied my units to his main, he though I had no army so he pushed, putting all his mins and gas into ground instead of rays. That is essential! Do not let him get rays! Trick him into making a ground army, get reapers to snipe his starport, anything! But the only true counter to rays is not letting him get them in the first place! Edit: Crap, accidentally posted in the thread that was linked in the original thread. Sorry for bumping this, TL. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:21 DuneBug wrote: uhh it's hard to directly counter void rays with vikings unless you have more of them than they do... it helps to put a turret down and sit the viking near it, thus the viking can hit the void ray and if they chase the viking they'll get shot at by the turret. hmmmm...... vikings cost 150m75g and take 42 seconds to build but can be doubled out with a reactor. Void rays cost 250m150g and take 60 seconds to build. So yes, that sounds about right. | ||
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:07 NATO wrote: So everyone yelling at me because they are scared of a void ray nerf... are you suggesting every game vs toss I just fast tech to starport, and forget the fact that every other strategy will decimate me? nobody is scared of a voidray nerf. their range allready got nerfed because of the harassing issue. even before the nerf most good terrans found a good way to deal whith any early fasttech aggressin by P. its called the 1/1/1 opening. I know this is a very general advice but if you get it done properly than you have a rock solid opening in PvT. note that its a rather defensive opening and it will not provide early pressure on P. edit: On June 05 2010 04:45 BlasiuS wrote: unnecessary bump, this OP was made before patch 13, when void rays still had 7 range. oh well iam sorry for participating then | ||
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Competent
United States406 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
vikings if theres voids no voids, banshees banshees just destroy toss | ||
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BADSMCGEE
United States94 Posts
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NitroN7
Canada18 Posts
On June 05 2010 16:11 roymarthyup wrote: the solution is to fasttech starport every game vs toss. most of the pro terrans are doing it vikings if theres voids no voids, banshees banshees just destroy toss Fast Raven > Fast banshee unless you scout no robo. Ravens are almost as bad for Toss as EMP was. One spell means 0 DPS from stalkers for awhile. | ||
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Joseki
United States200 Posts
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