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On May 15 2010 05:44 XXXSmOke wrote:
This build is meh to risky, Vikings are way better, I always do reactor port to mass vikings and I just laugh at any dual port banshee builds even with cloack I will destroy them all. Turrets, scan GG banshee. At the same time Viking harass is extremely powerful. I can kill the same amount of workers that banshees do just as fast with a few vikings.
How do you destroy cloaked banshees with vikings when you can't shoot them? Did you read the thread at all??
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When they pop out they don't have alot of cloak time and like any good terran you save up a scan for the push then if you see from the push no tech lab on starport you use it for mule.
1 scan is all you need then by time you need 2nd eng bay should have been done and turrents should be up because you get them to put up a block in on the terran if he has tanks as well or what not.
1 basnhess will get ya like 5 scv maybe but i have found it can get you nothing and just F you in long run cause if the first few sec does not work with them then its just GG most times : /
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Banshee smells like cheese, decent players who scouts it can easily come out ahead...you know I think it doesnt even need to be scouted... owell go ahead; they fly, they shoot things, they cloak. nice. If only the pilot dont have that egg shaped helmet or i would banshee spam versus everything.
Anyways It seems to me like tank/viking is the only way to go in tvt.
It auto blocks banshee
anyone know how mass marauders counter tank/viking openings, or if thor/tank can fight this?
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guyz it seems u didnt watch replay that i posted at the 1st page. just watch it and u ll understand that vikings ant turrets are useless.
BEFORE POST SOME SHIT WATCH REPLAY
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After reading many replies in this thread I have given up hope of any sort of strategic discussion in these forums :/
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On May 15 2010 06:11 AeonFlux wrote:
guyz it seems u didnt watch replay that i posted at the 1st page. just watch it and u ll understand that vikings ant turrets are useless.
BEFORE POST SOME SHIT WATCH REPLAY
Yeah so I watched your replay.... I recommend to everyone else, don't bother with it. If you see it, you'll understand.
Banshee cloak rush is decent but if you over-commit you are all-in and that can fail super easy. In your case you chose all in, but the blue terran didn't know what the fuck he was doing so this was a poor example. By the time you pushed out with all those marines and scvs, a good terran player sould have been able to shut down that banshee harass with 2-3 turrets, 1-2 scan, and a lot less vikings WHILE producing tanks and scouting.
And don't say you would have shot down his tanks with your banshees. Good luck when there is 4 vikings and a turret protecting them. And it doesn't matter how many marines you have, 4-5 correctly placed tanks will rape any number of marines you could have sent.
You got lucky in that rep. You should only use 2-3 banshees to harass and keep his scv count low, and bring them back when they are almost dead, while building an army and expansion. That is what a banshee opening is.
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Ghost or raven is the way to go. Turrets and scan are panic solutions that ends up costing you a lot and if you rely on them for more than one minute then you are dead because they are too easy to go around.
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Fast banshee cloak is a very strong solid opening that allows you to put pressure on opponent AND scout him without a scan AND expand.
No it's not an auto win build, but its a solid opening that transitions into anything else very fast.
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Doesn't fast cloak lose if the other guy rushes standard banshees?
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With Terrans getting vikings early, this strategy is very susceptible to failing. There's 2 main ways that it fails:
1) enemy scouts it early enough, builds 2 turrets and can't be harassed. Techs to viking.
2) Makes a fast viking followed by a raven.
Seeing a starport with a tech lab is enough for the enemy to start preparing. You state how the first banshee will die to a good Terran, but the second will have free reign. Well, if you build a banshee while the enemy builds a viking, and you build your second while the enemy gets his raven out, there isn't as much free reign as you'd hope for. Fast cloaked banshees worked for me very well early in the beta, but with high level players it CAN be difficult to pull off. People that lose to this now are just people too greedy to spend money on turrets or a raven.
But it's really funny when someone goes 3rax and you destroy everything :D
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Two port banshee is a pretty horrible build.
The reasons for this are, it is easy scoutable and it really does not transition properly into other builds as stated before.
If your opponent goes 2 rax, fac, 1 starport build + engineering bay, he can not only defend without any damage to his base, he can contain you without any problem too.
A 2 starport banshee with cloak build means, you wont have any addons on your factory or barracks.
You can only build marines + hellions + command center.
So no marauders, no siege tanks, no tech.
If I build 2-3 turrets in my base, and then setup in front of your base with a marine/rauder mix and 2 vikings + some scv's with turrets you can not do a single thing.
In the meanwhile I have build my Command center, made it an orbital command and now I got the base advantage.
It is a lie the build transits properly into any other build, since you are stuck with 2 starports with techlabs on it.
Why would you want 2 starports in TvT?
You want either mech upgrades, vikings, tanks, marauder upgrades, medivac's, marine upgrades and maybe a raven.
Going heavy air against Terran is suicide. E.O.D.
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On May 15 2010 08:48 Fluxx wrote:
Two port banshee is a pretty horrible build.
The reasons for this are, it is easy scoutable and it really does not transition properly into other builds as stated before.
If your opponent goes 2 rax, fac, 1 starport build + engineering bay, he can not only defend without any damage to his base, he can contain you without any problem too.
A 2 starport banshee with cloak build means, you wont have any addons on your factory or barracks.
You can only build marines + hellions + command center.
So no marauders, no siege tanks, no tech.
If I build 2-3 turrets in my base, and then setup in front of your base with a marine/rauder mix and 2 vikings + some scv's with turrets you can not do a single thing.
In the meanwhile I have build my Command center, made it an orbital command and now I got the base advantage.
It is a lie the build transits properly into any other build, since you are stuck with 2 starports with techlabs on it.
Why would you want 2 starports in TvT?
You want either mech upgrades, vikings, tanks, marauder upgrades, medivac's, marine upgrades and maybe a raven.
Going heavy air against Terran is suicide. E.O.D.
Don't try to act smart if your not even going to read the opening post. This is a one port cloak into expansion build. Since banshee production is stopped after the second, a terran that spent resources on turrets or vikings will have useless units for a while as you will be focusing on more of a tank/thor/mm defense(depending on what opponents unit composition is).
The point of this build is to force the other terran into either scanning over muling, over panicking(which leads to producing units he normally wouldn't, thus changing his build), and to give yourself a strong offensive and defensive unit in the early game.
I give up...
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I get it. I've been doing this kind of thing for basically every 1v1 game I've played (against all 3 races).
I'll open with a 10 rax 10 depot with a fast OC opening, getting 1 Marauder for defending against several different types of early rushes. I then get 1 Reaper if I feel I need more scouting information, but from that point, I'm pumping Marines from 2 Barracks, as money allows, trying to skimp on the Marauders at this point.
I'll go straight into a 2 port opening (using the Factory to make both tech labs), getting 2 banshees, then cloak, then 2 more (if I can, if not, I'll be making Vikings or Medivacs at this point). Right when the Banshees finish, I have enough money to expand, and the Banshees should give me complete map control, at least temporarily.
It seems pretty safe, and reliable, because even if you don't kill a whole lot, you force your opponent into doing something they don't want to do (sit with their army and detecting units in their base, or build static defenses to protect themselves). And by getting a 2nd rax before I go for the banshees, I can be safe against most early pushes, or at least delay them long enough for the first 2 banshees to come out and help.
And, from there, I can transition into whatever I want..... Granted, I'm a low plat player..... But it seems solid. Maybe not ideal, but solid. And simple.
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this build transitions well... why woudlnt it? u can lift off addons and replace fact with starport..or rax or whatever.
I duno I dont rly like thors vs banshees either, banshees deal so much dmg so fast while thor deals low damage with splash (recently nerfed against armored air) . Thor deals with harassment well tho, but almost every TvT lately has for me has been Who can handle their vikings the best and/or containment strategies with tanks
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Sweden33719 Posts
Arnold, Banshee's are light so the nerf doesn't affect them at all (tho when the patch notes were first released, I was raging :D), although in general they were hugely nerfed vs T I think (now need 3 shots vs marauders, tanks etc).
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here i just won vs 2 fast thors
cas thors have no detection so bashee have 1st srike which kills 1st thor.then he scans but 1 thor cant do anything.
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On May 15 2010 14:12 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Arnold, Banshee's are light so the nerf doesn't affect them at all (tho when the patch notes were first released, I was raging :D), although in general they were hugely nerfed vs T I think (now need 3 shots vs marauders, tanks etc).
How do you handle the cloak ? Do you prefer eng bay or raven ? And how do you choose between pushing with some rines/tanks/thor/raven and expanding ? I mean it depends on what your opponent is doing obviously, but what makes you go one way or the other ?
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On May 15 2010 16:51 AeonFlux wrote:here i just won vs 2 fast thors cas thors have no detection so bashee have 1st srike which kills 1st thor.then he scans but 1 thor cant do anything.
Just the fact that you said this proves your opponent was bad. Banshees have first strike so thor dies? Are you serious? You'd need like twenty 'first strikes' to kill a thor before he gets you. If at any point he bothered to scan and/or repair, then his first thor would have lived.
Let's not even get into the fact that at the time of his push, he had 700 extra gas and two macro buildings. He was also consistently late with the turrets and bad with the decision making. You killed a copper player.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 15 2010 19:57 StyX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 14:12 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Arnold, Banshee's are light so the nerf doesn't affect them at all (tho when the patch notes were first released, I was raging :D), although in general they were hugely nerfed vs T I think (now need 3 shots vs marauders, tanks etc). How do you handle the cloak ? Do you prefer eng bay or raven ? And how do you choose between pushing with some rines/tanks/thor/raven and expanding ? I mean it depends on what your opponent is doing obviously, but what makes you go one way or the other ?
Unless you are thor dropping, you probably need to get engineering bay before raven. Turrets don't have great range, but their detection range is still good (longer than they can shoot).
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my opponent was about 50th place platinum. btw i m too about 50 place in plat (i play not much, about 0-5 games a day)
but my problem is not tvt, in tvt i have about 90% win rate, but i lose much to imba zerg and imba toss
banshee make 22 damage to thor (2x(12-1 armro)) so 10 banshee kill thor (400 hp) in two hits. (so u have no time to scan)
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EPT
