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I've been testing this strategy a lot recently (played on 1.6-1.7k platinum), and surprisingly, it either put me ahead, or in a good position in the game.
The point of this build is really to just research cloak before banshee, build no more than two banshees(unless the situation calls for it) while expanding or adding on more raxes.
It seems that the timing of the first banshee will either come fast enough to counter a rush(with cloak), or just give you a ton of energy to work with by the time you reach his base. From this point on you really are ahead no matter how he responds. You really should not be losing a banshee to one scan, but if you do, the second banshee will come in fast enough to abuse your opponent some more. Turrets aren't really effective vs banshee range, and if you force them to place more than two, you are even further ahead.
In the early game, cloaked banshees serve as VERY powerful defensive and offensive units, giving you ample time to get out a army large enough to defend, that forces your opponent to save scans while keeping them in the dark.
Both of these replays show that despite a fast viking, this build is very powerful because banshees can survive scans if microed correctly(not really shown in this replay since I'm chobo), and even if the opponent gets early turrets, that would allow you to get a very early expansion and protect it with cloak.
The main flaw to this build is that it is susceptible to any rush that comes somewhat significantly before the first banshee, otherwise that rush will probably fail since it would have to be pretty marine heavy to work. I have never played against fast ravens, and I highly doubt anyone would ever go for it, and even if they did it you would probably be in a better position still.
This shows pretty much the perfect situation for this build. Opponent does a pretty quick rush with a fast viking after he sees that my army count is very low. First banshee popped at 6:57, slighly delayed due to the fact that I overreacted to seeing one reaper and made a hellion/more marines. Cloak done at 7:30 Second banshee saves me defensively(forces him to scan and wins me the game).
This is me oppening up with a very badly with a fail reaper that put me behind, only to be saved by the power of cloaked banshees! First banshee at 7:26, delayed because of my 10 rax opening. Cloak done at 7:55. Second banshee does insane amounts of damage offensively..
I am not writing this thread to say that this build is unbeatable or new, since a lot of terrans are already using it in different ways(with a "cheese" timing, this build would be so much stronger). I am just saying that it is indeed really hard to beat, and this thread is to discuss how to counter it once it is scouted, and how to recognize if your opponent will be going for the cloak research.
In summary to lazy people:
Strengths
-Strong Unit Overall
-Opponent Scans instead of mules
-Map control once cloak kicks in
-Second banshee has a HUGE window of opportunity if opponent does not turret up
-Fast expansion can be placed
Weaknesses
-Must survive for about 7 minutes with very limited units
-please suggest more!
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its not that hard of a build to scout and counter by really just getting a fast e-bay.
fun build to do though.
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Fast ebay = 125 minerals, +at least two turrets = 200 minerals. So now you're down 325 minerals, and gave up all map control to cloaked banshees until you can push with a raven or at least 2-3 scans stored.
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I used to do a fast cloaked banshee strat too, but one counter is when the opponent get banshee without cloak and has faster vikings. Cuz 2 vikings and 3+ marines will kill ur banshee in one scan easily, and you won't have vikings to kill his air force.
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Dodging scans and keeping a distance is pretty easy as banshees do have a good amount of life. If the first scan fails you get free reign over his main. If you mis micro, you still have the second banshee coming to either defend or harass again with.
The timing to get 1 banshee and two vikings is also going to be pretty long, and almost EVERYONE will get the banshee before the two vikings anyways, giving you a timing advantage.
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You forgot the hard counter to this build: 1 Port raven + viking. If he scouts you doing this, you lose, period.
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I usually rush to reactor double vikings in this match up, use them to scout, and if i see a tech lab on the port I just make sure to always have 50 energy for a scan. Cloaked banshees are sooooo common in this matchup it's ridiculous. With 2 vikings and a decent scan you're pretty much able to either kill a banshee or send it into full retreat. Also, i think marines are underused in this matchup as well, it's nice to have a group to back up your mineral line early.
I watched the first game and the only reason that attack worked was because he blindly attacked haphazardly without scouting, didn't build a reactor on the starport, and seemed to not notice the fact that his scv's were getting raped.
It's not that banshees are bad in the matchup, it's just getting them super early, they're easily countered if your opponent knows what he's doing.
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yeah i hate banshees lol. still trying to get a good build with a quick raven, or when to cut marines at the start or be ready to def quick siege push
edit: oh hey that's me losing! <3
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Its all stuped.
U can have 2 banshees at 4:30-5:00 (real time; replay time is 4/3 of real time, so 4:30 of real time will be 4.30*4/3=6:00 in replay timer) and cloak started after 2-4 banshee appear.
Thats why u can dont wory about early push.
10 rax, 11 gas, 11 suply, 11 OC. Wall. then when u have 100 gas make factory and raise 2nd gas. when factory rdy place 2 starports.
btw, use factory to make tech lab on it. so u can get banshees faster. switch to that tech lab 2ND starport, when start to build tech lab at 1st starport. that is done to make two fast banshees, not one.
all defence u use here is 1 marine and scv's reparing the wall [oh, i forgot about reaper. so make about 6 rines]. u can use bunker with 1-4 rines but then u ll get banshees a bit later.
then we go to enemy base and if theres viking we go back, w8 cloack and come again. (we dont make clocck as OP recomended before banshee. we make it AFTER banshees. cas first two banshee will need to charge up some enegry cas other way their cloack time will be too low)
NOTHING will help him. he can mass vikings but usually i kill most of his scv's. then u ll have about 30 scv vs 15 scv.
just make mass rines and continue banshee harrass. your primary target are siege tanks (cas only they can stop your rines).
make stimpack and combat shields and push.
kill with banshee all tanks (u can even sacrifice ALL banshee) and finish him with mass marines. (use about 5-10 rax w/o reactor cas u ll need all gas for banshees and stimpack, combat shield, +1 infantry attack grades); sure place some turrets against vikings to make "safe zone" for your banshees to retreat.
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The answer to this is rax (reactor), fac(lab), port (lab)
Open raven and then tech swap to reactor vikings. Move out with the marines you made up til this point and 2~ tanks. PDD his choke and GG.
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here is replay
(patch 11)
my opponent had starport+reactor and turrets but it didnt help him.
his only chance was raven but i think we can deal with it attacking from two sides (so raven can protect only one side), or sacrificing banshees for workers (if he has raven then he has less vikings so banshee can tank damage)
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Another good answer would be to just rush him with a good amount of marines + 1-2 ghost. If he does not have siege tanks, he is doomed.
Ghost EMP>Banshee. Also, Ghost deals 20 dmg to Banshee. Marines should handle the rest.
You need to scan for an early factory and check the ramp for the number of troops. If it is lightly defended, banshees can be assumed and you need to be fast on your toes to counter them.
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sc2calc.net
ghosts? rofl
Kill rate: one Banshee will kill 1 Ghost(s) without dying (60 health left) **
Cost efficiency: for every Ghost you can get 1.3 Banshee(s) ***
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Yes, because sc2calc.net wins games. Oh wait...you actually need to add 4-5 marines to the ghost and recalculate that battle.
Ghost counter the banshees by revealing them and destroying their energy. The 20 dmg is topping on the cake, and will always be dealt because of the same 6 range that ghosts and banshees share - so no kiting.
In my experience, at the time of this attack the opponent will have 1, at best 2 banshees, fresh from the starport (or even produced after I have downed their closest supply depots).
I will have a good army of marines + a couple of ghosts who will EMP the banshees and will take them down.
Hell, all you need is one good EMP on the banshees. They cannot stand ground against a superior marine force. They need to, because the rest of their army is not there anymore...
If they build a bunker, they will not have the banshees as fast, and I can add a few marauders to break it.
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nono.. ghosts cant defeat banshees what are u speaking about ^^ Oo
i can repair banshees with scv's and dont forget that i ll have marines too
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On May 14 2010 16:21 superbabosheki wrote:
Fast ebay = 125 minerals, +at least two turrets = 200 minerals. So now you're down 325 minerals, and gave up all map control to cloaked banshees until you can push with a raven or at least 2-3 scans stored.
1 turret and a viking thats useful later on is more cost effective
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how do u deal with vikings? cauz most of the terran play that timing rush with a bunch of marines/tanks and 1 or 2 vikings. Even if your cloacked banshees do enough damage to his economy, you will lose air control, because he will be ahead by at least 1 or 2 vikings, and you only have a starport with a tech lab, and no reactor so.. i don't know, i still didn't watch the replays but i will for sure :D
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On May 14 2010 20:28 Origine wrote:
how do u deal with vikings? cauz most of the terran play that timing rush with a bunch of marines/tanks and 1 or 2 vikings. Even if your cloacked banshees do enough damage to his economy, you will lose air control, because he will be ahead by at least 1 or 2 vikings, and you only have a starport with a tech lab, and no reactor so.. i don't know, i still didn't watch the replays but i will for sure :D
i m telling u that i ll use banshees then to kill tankes and my marines pwn all then.
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ye ok, so you don't build tanks at all when you go for banshees?
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On May 14 2010 20:37 Origine wrote:
ye ok, so you don't build tanks at all when you go for banshees?
sure..!!
watch my repaly, its worse seen, nice game there.
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EPT
