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I've been testing this strategy a lot recently (played on 1.6-1.7k platinum), and surprisingly, it either put me ahead, or in a good position in the game.
The point of this build is really to just research cloak before banshee, build no more than two banshees(unless the situation calls for it) while expanding or adding on more raxes.
It seems that the timing of the first banshee will either come fast enough to counter a rush(with cloak), or just give you a ton of energy to work with by the time you reach his base. From this point on you really are ahead no matter how he responds. You really should not be losing a banshee to one scan, but if you do, the second banshee will come in fast enough to abuse your opponent some more. Turrets aren't really effective vs banshee range, and if you force them to place more than two, you are even further ahead.
In the early game, cloaked banshees serve as VERY powerful defensive and offensive units, giving you ample time to get out a army large enough to defend, that forces your opponent to save scans while keeping them in the dark.
Both of these replays show that despite a fast viking, this build is very powerful because banshees can survive scans if microed correctly(not really shown in this replay since I'm chobo), and even if the opponent gets early turrets, that would allow you to get a very early expansion and protect it with cloak.
The main flaw to this build is that it is susceptible to any rush that comes somewhat significantly before the first banshee, otherwise that rush will probably fail since it would have to be pretty marine heavy to work. I have never played against fast ravens, and I highly doubt anyone would ever go for it, and even if they did it you would probably be in a better position still.
This shows pretty much the perfect situation for this build. Opponent does a pretty quick rush with a fast viking after he sees that my army count is very low. First banshee popped at 6:57, slighly delayed due to the fact that I overreacted to seeing one reaper and made a hellion/more marines. Cloak done at 7:30 Second banshee saves me defensively(forces him to scan and wins me the game).
This is me oppening up with a very badly with a fail reaper that put me behind, only to be saved by the power of cloaked banshees! First banshee at 7:26, delayed because of my 10 rax opening. Cloak done at 7:55. Second banshee does insane amounts of damage offensively..
I am not writing this thread to say that this build is unbeatable or new, since a lot of terrans are already using it in different ways(with a "cheese" timing, this build would be so much stronger). I am just saying that it is indeed really hard to beat, and this thread is to discuss how to counter it once it is scouted, and how to recognize if your opponent will be going for the cloak research.
In summary to lazy people:
Strengths
-Strong Unit Overall
-Opponent Scans instead of mules
-Map control once cloak kicks in
-Second banshee has a HUGE window of opportunity if opponent does not turret up
-Fast expansion can be placed
Weaknesses
-Must survive for about 7 minutes with very limited units
-please suggest more!
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its not that hard of a build to scout and counter by really just getting a fast e-bay.
fun build to do though.
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Fast ebay = 125 minerals, +at least two turrets = 200 minerals. So now you're down 325 minerals, and gave up all map control to cloaked banshees until you can push with a raven or at least 2-3 scans stored.
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I used to do a fast cloaked banshee strat too, but one counter is when the opponent get banshee without cloak and has faster vikings. Cuz 2 vikings and 3+ marines will kill ur banshee in one scan easily, and you won't have vikings to kill his air force.
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Dodging scans and keeping a distance is pretty easy as banshees do have a good amount of life. If the first scan fails you get free reign over his main. If you mis micro, you still have the second banshee coming to either defend or harass again with.
The timing to get 1 banshee and two vikings is also going to be pretty long, and almost EVERYONE will get the banshee before the two vikings anyways, giving you a timing advantage.
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You forgot the hard counter to this build: 1 Port raven + viking. If he scouts you doing this, you lose, period.
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I usually rush to reactor double vikings in this match up, use them to scout, and if i see a tech lab on the port I just make sure to always have 50 energy for a scan. Cloaked banshees are sooooo common in this matchup it's ridiculous. With 2 vikings and a decent scan you're pretty much able to either kill a banshee or send it into full retreat. Also, i think marines are underused in this matchup as well, it's nice to have a group to back up your mineral line early.
I watched the first game and the only reason that attack worked was because he blindly attacked haphazardly without scouting, didn't build a reactor on the starport, and seemed to not notice the fact that his scv's were getting raped.
It's not that banshees are bad in the matchup, it's just getting them super early, they're easily countered if your opponent knows what he's doing.
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yeah i hate banshees lol. still trying to get a good build with a quick raven, or when to cut marines at the start or be ready to def quick siege push
edit: oh hey that's me losing! <3
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Its all stuped.
U can have 2 banshees at 4:30-5:00 (real time; replay time is 4/3 of real time, so 4:30 of real time will be 4.30*4/3=6:00 in replay timer) and cloak started after 2-4 banshee appear.
Thats why u can dont wory about early push.
10 rax, 11 gas, 11 suply, 11 OC. Wall. then when u have 100 gas make factory and raise 2nd gas. when factory rdy place 2 starports.
btw, use factory to make tech lab on it. so u can get banshees faster. switch to that tech lab 2ND starport, when start to build tech lab at 1st starport. that is done to make two fast banshees, not one.
all defence u use here is 1 marine and scv's reparing the wall [oh, i forgot about reaper. so make about 6 rines]. u can use bunker with 1-4 rines but then u ll get banshees a bit later.
then we go to enemy base and if theres viking we go back, w8 cloack and come again. (we dont make clocck as OP recomended before banshee. we make it AFTER banshees. cas first two banshee will need to charge up some enegry cas other way their cloack time will be too low)
NOTHING will help him. he can mass vikings but usually i kill most of his scv's. then u ll have about 30 scv vs 15 scv.
just make mass rines and continue banshee harrass. your primary target are siege tanks (cas only they can stop your rines).
make stimpack and combat shields and push.
kill with banshee all tanks (u can even sacrifice ALL banshee) and finish him with mass marines. (use about 5-10 rax w/o reactor cas u ll need all gas for banshees and stimpack, combat shield, +1 infantry attack grades); sure place some turrets against vikings to make "safe zone" for your banshees to retreat.
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The answer to this is rax (reactor), fac(lab), port (lab)
Open raven and then tech swap to reactor vikings. Move out with the marines you made up til this point and 2~ tanks. PDD his choke and GG.
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here is replay
(patch 11)
my opponent had starport+reactor and turrets but it didnt help him.
his only chance was raven but i think we can deal with it attacking from two sides (so raven can protect only one side), or sacrificing banshees for workers (if he has raven then he has less vikings so banshee can tank damage)
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Another good answer would be to just rush him with a good amount of marines + 1-2 ghost. If he does not have siege tanks, he is doomed.
Ghost EMP>Banshee. Also, Ghost deals 20 dmg to Banshee. Marines should handle the rest.
You need to scan for an early factory and check the ramp for the number of troops. If it is lightly defended, banshees can be assumed and you need to be fast on your toes to counter them.
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sc2calc.net
ghosts? rofl
Kill rate: one Banshee will kill 1 Ghost(s) without dying (60 health left) **
Cost efficiency: for every Ghost you can get 1.3 Banshee(s) ***
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Yes, because sc2calc.net wins games. Oh wait...you actually need to add 4-5 marines to the ghost and recalculate that battle.
Ghost counter the banshees by revealing them and destroying their energy. The 20 dmg is topping on the cake, and will always be dealt because of the same 6 range that ghosts and banshees share - so no kiting.
In my experience, at the time of this attack the opponent will have 1, at best 2 banshees, fresh from the starport (or even produced after I have downed their closest supply depots).
I will have a good army of marines + a couple of ghosts who will EMP the banshees and will take them down.
Hell, all you need is one good EMP on the banshees. They cannot stand ground against a superior marine force. They need to, because the rest of their army is not there anymore...
If they build a bunker, they will not have the banshees as fast, and I can add a few marauders to break it.
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nono.. ghosts cant defeat banshees what are u speaking about ^^ Oo
i can repair banshees with scv's and dont forget that i ll have marines too
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On May 14 2010 16:21 superbabosheki wrote:
Fast ebay = 125 minerals, +at least two turrets = 200 minerals. So now you're down 325 minerals, and gave up all map control to cloaked banshees until you can push with a raven or at least 2-3 scans stored.
1 turret and a viking thats useful later on is more cost effective
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how do u deal with vikings? cauz most of the terran play that timing rush with a bunch of marines/tanks and 1 or 2 vikings. Even if your cloacked banshees do enough damage to his economy, you will lose air control, because he will be ahead by at least 1 or 2 vikings, and you only have a starport with a tech lab, and no reactor so.. i don't know, i still didn't watch the replays but i will for sure :D
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On May 14 2010 20:28 Origine wrote:
how do u deal with vikings? cauz most of the terran play that timing rush with a bunch of marines/tanks and 1 or 2 vikings. Even if your cloacked banshees do enough damage to his economy, you will lose air control, because he will be ahead by at least 1 or 2 vikings, and you only have a starport with a tech lab, and no reactor so.. i don't know, i still didn't watch the replays but i will for sure :D
i m telling u that i ll use banshees then to kill tankes and my marines pwn all then.
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ye ok, so you don't build tanks at all when you go for banshees?
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On May 14 2010 20:37 Origine wrote:
ye ok, so you don't build tanks at all when you go for banshees?
sure..!!
watch my repaly, its worse seen, nice game there.
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Why the hell has nobody mentioned the biggest banshee killer in the game - the thor? Seriously, it's got what, 10 range and decimates a banshee in like 3 hits? Just 1 of those suckers and good turret placement and you're safe to do whatever. You'll be getting the armory eventually anyways so it's not like it's wasted tech. Also it allows you to expo really really easily without investing much at all, and it's not like the banshee player can switch to vikings and hope to out-air you. He has to cut air completely.
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usually terrans won't go thor until they spot something, if you're a decent player, you just hide all your tech buildings, and your opponent just don't know what you are going to do.
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thor? what a useless unit
btw in my replay my opponent made two thors, but too late, i had just 3 banshee that time and 100500 marines.
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On May 14 2010 20:12 AeonFlux wrote:nono.. ghosts cant defeat banshees what are u speaking about ^^ Oo i can repair banshees with scv's and dont forget that i ll have marines too
Yeah... I cannot post a replay from work, but I have a feeling you are talking about much later in game.
At what time (in minutes) do you get your first banshee?
It would also be interesting to see your army composition at that time.
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i get 2 banshee and 6 rines at 7th minute of reaplay time (3/4 of 7 = 5.25 real time). i get invis at 8:30 of replay time (6:15 real time).
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On May 14 2010 21:18 AeonFlux wrote:
i get 2 banshee and 6 rines at 7th minute of reaplay time (3/4 of 7 = 5.25 real time). i get invis at 8:30 of replay time (6:15 real time).
Excellent, I will search through my replays and find the two where I was countering the fast banshee. That will show what army I had by 7th minute of replay time.
It's a bummer that I cannot see the timer when in-game (only available in replays). I would love to have it in game, so I could actually check the clock for timings...
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Works better on certain maps--Desert Oasis, Scrap Station, etc. Steppes of War you're likely to die to early aggression.
Good timings can help counter this. 7-8 minutes is about when most builds will have 2 Starports and cloak, so if you know when that lines up with the timing of your build, you just start saving scans. I've definitely been spanked by this before I realized the timings ("Surely, I can pop a MULE now!) If you're trying for any kind of tank push, you should try to be outside his base pushing by around then.
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On May 14 2010 22:00 ComTrav wrote:
Works better on certain maps--Desert Oasis, Scrap Station, etc. Steppes of War you're likely to die to early aggression.
Good timings can help counter this. 7-8 minutes is about when most builds will have 2 Starports and cloak, so if you know when that lines up with the timing of your build, you just start saving scans. I've definitely been spanked by this before I realized the timings ("Surely, I can pop a MULE now!) If you're trying for any kind of tank push, you should try to be outside his base pushing by around then.
better yet, if you're doing a tank push get 1 port with reactor and pump ~4 vikings, make a turret at the position you are holding when you push, and win. keep a turret and 1 viking in your base to defend. this macro is possible with rax fact port.
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im by no means good (1500+ plat) and everyone calls me a noob when i beat them 
But this strategy has made me not puke when i see its TvT and i actually won quite a few with it today.
I think i lost only one game, on incineration zone where my enemy got most his scvs killed but mined with mules and pushed with 2 tanks + marines + some vikings through the rocks in the backdoor and owned me with it
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This is definetly my favorite opening build. With 1 barrack, 1 factory and 1 starport you can transition to anything after your initial cloaked banshee. I like to transition into siege tank right after, then contain them and expand but you can change things around based on how they react.
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AeonFlux, plz stop posting. You are easily the biggest idiot I have yet to see on these boards.
then we go to enemy base and if theres viking we go back, w8 cloack and come again. (we dont make clocck as OP recomended before banshee. we make it AFTER banshees. cas first two banshee will need to charge up some enegry cas other way their cloack time will be too low)
NOTHING will help him. he can mass vikings but usually i kill most of his scv's. then u ll have about 30 scv vs 15 scv.
just make mass rines and continue banshee harrass. your primary target are siege tanks (cas only they can stop your rines).
make stimpack and combat shields and push.
So bad. The reason that fast cloak works is b/c your opponent has very limited detect in the first 5-7 mins. What do you think he is going to do once he scouts your tech-labbed starport, sit on his ass? 3 turrets by minerals = gg as he has 25 SCVs while you have 15 b/c of your failed strategy.
ghosts? rofl
Kill rate: one Banshee will kill 1 Ghost(s) without dying (60 health left) **
Cost efficiency: for every Ghost you can get 1.3 Banshee(s) ***
I know that your head is a bit dense, but surely you are not that stupid to figure out that EMP = no cloak, and that the ghost will not be soloing the banshee.
ono.. ghosts cant defeat banshees what are u speaking about ^^ Oo
i can repair banshees with scv's and dont forget that i ll have marines too
It was spelled out to you in 5 paragraphs but you are too dumb to read, apparently. Cool deal at getting all those SCVs and marines into their base to support your fail banshee push.
thor? what a useless unit
btw in my replay my opponent made two thors, but too late, i had just 3 banshee that time and 100500 marines.
Thor is a hard counter to banshees and will be supported by tanks / hellions, along with many more marines than you can make with your dinky 11 port economy.
Back to the topic of this thread, fast cloak is indeed very powerful in TvT, particularly if you send your banshees in one-by-one to maximize cloak duration of the second and third banshees. It is tempting to send two banshees together as they one-shot SCVs, but both end up having to retreat and will run out of energy during the second attack.
I like dropping a reactor on my rax once I have the 50 gas (cloak researching, banshee in production), and then swapping the tech lab port to the reactor after the third banshee while landing the factory on the tech lab. This is because more than 3 banshees is generally a waste in TvT once he gets vikings, ebay and/or thors out - you can immediately switch to the counter to his counter of your banshees (generally tank/viking) while macroing up to capitalize on your SCV advantage, which along with the early reactor will easily give you air control. You can always re-introduce cloaked banshees if you allow your opponent to recover enough to amass his own tank/viking army.
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AeonFlux, plz stop posting. You are easily the biggest idiot I have yet to see on these boards.
ty.. i m alwayz pleased be top at smthng.. at least i m top in your list of idiots.. i m happy then
So bad. The reason that fast cloak works is b/c your opponent has very limited detect in the first 5-7 mins. What do you think he is going to do once he scouts your tech-labbed starport, sit on his ass? 3 turrets by minerals = gg as he has 25 SCVs while you have 15 b/c of your failed strategy.
I see u didnt watch my replay. 3 banshees kill turret very easily. i have non-stop scv production so i always have 30 and my opponent have 10-25 (depending on success of banshee harrass)
I know that your head is a bit dense, but surely you are not that stupid to figure out that EMP = no cloak, and that the ghost will not be soloing the banshee.
but mby your head is clever enogh to get that ghosts casts 50 gas more then banshee? ^^ so probably i ll have some units which will not be soloing your ghost
Thor is a hard counter to banshees and will be supported by tanks / hellions, along with many more marines than you can make with your dinky 11 port economy.
its not 11 port, i produce scv non-stop
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 14 2010 21:00 AeonFlux wrote:
thor? what a useless unit
btw in my replay my opponent made two thors, but too late, i had just 3 banshee that time and 100500 marines.
Thor into raven > banshee openings. Of course, Thors aren't good on all maps.
EDIT: At least they did in previous patches, I don't think the thor changes should influence this too much.
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thor is same as vikings. why vikings and raven cant stop banshee?
cas 1 raven cant cover 2 sides.
thats why to counter banshee u need two ravens and good anti air and its vikings or thor.
BUT
u cant get two ravens fast enogh. and good quanitity of thors and vikings.
so u have much vikings/thors and no ravevs, or u have two ravens and not enought thor/vikings = u lose your workers anyway= u have even less vikings/thors
2 banshee = 60 sec build time (in game= 45 real time). 1 scv = 17.5 sec so u can get 3 scv when i get 2 banshee.
so any time 2 banshee kill 4 or more scv u are losing your income.
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Sweden33719 Posts
... Are you seriously suggesting that a few range 10 thors aren't going to be able to keep my SCVs safe? Lol?
I'll happily trade a couple of SCVs for a banshee each time you decide you want to do a fly-by over a bunch of thors.
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u need two thors and two ravens. i ll kill your scv's much faster then u ll have 2 thors and 2 ravens. and one more problem is when u get thor i have 4 banshee. u make raven i have 6 banshee. 6 banshee kill thor but u can repair thor with scv's thats your chance to defend but i ll win any way
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Ravens cost gas. Turrets cost minerals. I'd much rather spend 400 minerals to setup some intelligent turrets than 200 gas for a raven early on. I need that gas for tanks/research/thors/more factories/armory/starports. Raven makes sense IF you were planning on pushing out of your base soon after or you were already committed to air. Most cases I'm opening fact/armory and taking a fast expand because I don't like playing 1 base cheese builds, so thors are the way to go for me.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 15 2010 04:35 Floophead_III wrote:
Ravens cost gas. Turrets cost minerals. I'd much rather spend 400 minerals to setup some intelligent turrets than 200 gas for a raven early on. I need that gas for tanks/research/thors/more factories/armory/starports. Raven makes sense IF you were planning on pushing out of your base soon after or you were already committed to air. Most cases I'm opening fact/armory and taking a fast expand because I don't like playing 1 base cheese builds, so thors are the way to go for me.
Yep exactly, 1 fac thor -> cc -> engineering bay if needed (such as vs banshee), get raven when you want to push.
And I don't get what kind of thor build Aeon is playing vs if he thinks he has 4 banshees by the time you have 1 thor (it's much closer to 1 banshee by the time the first thor arrives).
Thor first TvT is really safe, even if you don't continue making mass thors.
I'm not even saying fast banshee with cloak is bad, but it's annoying how you are talking about it like it auto-wins vs anything, which it just doesnt.
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On May 15 2010 04:40 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 04:35 Floophead_III wrote:
Ravens cost gas. Turrets cost minerals. I'd much rather spend 400 minerals to setup some intelligent turrets than 200 gas for a raven early on. I need that gas for tanks/research/thors/more factories/armory/starports. Raven makes sense IF you were planning on pushing out of your base soon after or you were already committed to air. Most cases I'm opening fact/armory and taking a fast expand because I don't like playing 1 base cheese builds, so thors are the way to go for me. Yep exactly, 1 fac thor -> cc -> engineering bay if needed (such as vs banshee), get raven and rape. And I don't get what kind of thor build Aeon is playing vs if he thinks he has 4 banshees by the time you have 1 thor (it's much closer to 1 banshee by the time the first thor arrives). Thor first TvT is really safe, even if you don't continue making mass thors. I'm not even saying fast banshee with cloak is bad, but it's annoying how you are talking about it like it auto-wins vs anything, which it just doesnt.
I usually go 2-4 marines, tank, thor, tank + siege + CC or so. I haven't really run up against any hard counters to that style of opening yet.
I need to get a Euro account so I can better see how you guys play across the pool. Apparently you know what you're doing =P
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This build is meh to risky, Vikings are way better, I always do reactor port to mass vikings and I just laugh at any dual port banshee builds even with cloack I will destroy them all. Turrets, scan GG banshee. At the same time Viking harass is extremely powerful. I can kill the same amount of workers that banshees do just as fast with a few vikings.
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On May 15 2010 05:44 XXXSmOke wrote:
This build is meh to risky, Vikings are way better, I always do reactor port to mass vikings and I just laugh at any dual port banshee builds even with cloack I will destroy them all. Turrets, scan GG banshee. At the same time Viking harass is extremely powerful. I can kill the same amount of workers that banshees do just as fast with a few vikings.
How do you destroy cloaked banshees with vikings when you can't shoot them? Did you read the thread at all??
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When they pop out they don't have alot of cloak time and like any good terran you save up a scan for the push then if you see from the push no tech lab on starport you use it for mule.
1 scan is all you need then by time you need 2nd eng bay should have been done and turrents should be up because you get them to put up a block in on the terran if he has tanks as well or what not.
1 basnhess will get ya like 5 scv maybe but i have found it can get you nothing and just F you in long run cause if the first few sec does not work with them then its just GG most times : /
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Banshee smells like cheese, decent players who scouts it can easily come out ahead...you know I think it doesnt even need to be scouted... owell go ahead; they fly, they shoot things, they cloak. nice. If only the pilot dont have that egg shaped helmet or i would banshee spam versus everything.
Anyways It seems to me like tank/viking is the only way to go in tvt.
It auto blocks banshee
anyone know how mass marauders counter tank/viking openings, or if thor/tank can fight this?
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guyz it seems u didnt watch replay that i posted at the 1st page. just watch it and u ll understand that vikings ant turrets are useless.
BEFORE POST SOME SHIT WATCH REPLAY
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After reading many replies in this thread I have given up hope of any sort of strategic discussion in these forums :/
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On May 15 2010 06:11 AeonFlux wrote:
guyz it seems u didnt watch replay that i posted at the 1st page. just watch it and u ll understand that vikings ant turrets are useless.
BEFORE POST SOME SHIT WATCH REPLAY
Yeah so I watched your replay.... I recommend to everyone else, don't bother with it. If you see it, you'll understand.
Banshee cloak rush is decent but if you over-commit you are all-in and that can fail super easy. In your case you chose all in, but the blue terran didn't know what the fuck he was doing so this was a poor example. By the time you pushed out with all those marines and scvs, a good terran player sould have been able to shut down that banshee harass with 2-3 turrets, 1-2 scan, and a lot less vikings WHILE producing tanks and scouting.
And don't say you would have shot down his tanks with your banshees. Good luck when there is 4 vikings and a turret protecting them. And it doesn't matter how many marines you have, 4-5 correctly placed tanks will rape any number of marines you could have sent.
You got lucky in that rep. You should only use 2-3 banshees to harass and keep his scv count low, and bring them back when they are almost dead, while building an army and expansion. That is what a banshee opening is.
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Ghost or raven is the way to go. Turrets and scan are panic solutions that ends up costing you a lot and if you rely on them for more than one minute then you are dead because they are too easy to go around.
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Fast banshee cloak is a very strong solid opening that allows you to put pressure on opponent AND scout him without a scan AND expand.
No it's not an auto win build, but its a solid opening that transitions into anything else very fast.
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Doesn't fast cloak lose if the other guy rushes standard banshees?
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With Terrans getting vikings early, this strategy is very susceptible to failing. There's 2 main ways that it fails:
1) enemy scouts it early enough, builds 2 turrets and can't be harassed. Techs to viking.
2) Makes a fast viking followed by a raven.
Seeing a starport with a tech lab is enough for the enemy to start preparing. You state how the first banshee will die to a good Terran, but the second will have free reign. Well, if you build a banshee while the enemy builds a viking, and you build your second while the enemy gets his raven out, there isn't as much free reign as you'd hope for. Fast cloaked banshees worked for me very well early in the beta, but with high level players it CAN be difficult to pull off. People that lose to this now are just people too greedy to spend money on turrets or a raven.
But it's really funny when someone goes 3rax and you destroy everything :D
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Two port banshee is a pretty horrible build.
The reasons for this are, it is easy scoutable and it really does not transition properly into other builds as stated before.
If your opponent goes 2 rax, fac, 1 starport build + engineering bay, he can not only defend without any damage to his base, he can contain you without any problem too.
A 2 starport banshee with cloak build means, you wont have any addons on your factory or barracks.
You can only build marines + hellions + command center.
So no marauders, no siege tanks, no tech.
If I build 2-3 turrets in my base, and then setup in front of your base with a marine/rauder mix and 2 vikings + some scv's with turrets you can not do a single thing.
In the meanwhile I have build my Command center, made it an orbital command and now I got the base advantage.
It is a lie the build transits properly into any other build, since you are stuck with 2 starports with techlabs on it.
Why would you want 2 starports in TvT?
You want either mech upgrades, vikings, tanks, marauder upgrades, medivac's, marine upgrades and maybe a raven.
Going heavy air against Terran is suicide. E.O.D.
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On May 15 2010 08:48 Fluxx wrote:
Two port banshee is a pretty horrible build.
The reasons for this are, it is easy scoutable and it really does not transition properly into other builds as stated before.
If your opponent goes 2 rax, fac, 1 starport build + engineering bay, he can not only defend without any damage to his base, he can contain you without any problem too.
A 2 starport banshee with cloak build means, you wont have any addons on your factory or barracks.
You can only build marines + hellions + command center.
So no marauders, no siege tanks, no tech.
If I build 2-3 turrets in my base, and then setup in front of your base with a marine/rauder mix and 2 vikings + some scv's with turrets you can not do a single thing.
In the meanwhile I have build my Command center, made it an orbital command and now I got the base advantage.
It is a lie the build transits properly into any other build, since you are stuck with 2 starports with techlabs on it.
Why would you want 2 starports in TvT?
You want either mech upgrades, vikings, tanks, marauder upgrades, medivac's, marine upgrades and maybe a raven.
Going heavy air against Terran is suicide. E.O.D.
Don't try to act smart if your not even going to read the opening post. This is a one port cloak into expansion build. Since banshee production is stopped after the second, a terran that spent resources on turrets or vikings will have useless units for a while as you will be focusing on more of a tank/thor/mm defense(depending on what opponents unit composition is).
The point of this build is to force the other terran into either scanning over muling, over panicking(which leads to producing units he normally wouldn't, thus changing his build), and to give yourself a strong offensive and defensive unit in the early game.
I give up...
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I get it. I've been doing this kind of thing for basically every 1v1 game I've played (against all 3 races).
I'll open with a 10 rax 10 depot with a fast OC opening, getting 1 Marauder for defending against several different types of early rushes. I then get 1 Reaper if I feel I need more scouting information, but from that point, I'm pumping Marines from 2 Barracks, as money allows, trying to skimp on the Marauders at this point.
I'll go straight into a 2 port opening (using the Factory to make both tech labs), getting 2 banshees, then cloak, then 2 more (if I can, if not, I'll be making Vikings or Medivacs at this point). Right when the Banshees finish, I have enough money to expand, and the Banshees should give me complete map control, at least temporarily.
It seems pretty safe, and reliable, because even if you don't kill a whole lot, you force your opponent into doing something they don't want to do (sit with their army and detecting units in their base, or build static defenses to protect themselves). And by getting a 2nd rax before I go for the banshees, I can be safe against most early pushes, or at least delay them long enough for the first 2 banshees to come out and help.
And, from there, I can transition into whatever I want..... Granted, I'm a low plat player..... But it seems solid. Maybe not ideal, but solid. And simple.
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this build transitions well... why woudlnt it? u can lift off addons and replace fact with starport..or rax or whatever.
I duno I dont rly like thors vs banshees either, banshees deal so much dmg so fast while thor deals low damage with splash (recently nerfed against armored air) . Thor deals with harassment well tho, but almost every TvT lately has for me has been Who can handle their vikings the best and/or containment strategies with tanks
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Sweden33719 Posts
Arnold, Banshee's are light so the nerf doesn't affect them at all (tho when the patch notes were first released, I was raging :D), although in general they were hugely nerfed vs T I think (now need 3 shots vs marauders, tanks etc).
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here i just won vs 2 fast thors
cas thors have no detection so bashee have 1st srike which kills 1st thor.then he scans but 1 thor cant do anything.
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On May 15 2010 14:12 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Arnold, Banshee's are light so the nerf doesn't affect them at all (tho when the patch notes were first released, I was raging :D), although in general they were hugely nerfed vs T I think (now need 3 shots vs marauders, tanks etc).
How do you handle the cloak ? Do you prefer eng bay or raven ? And how do you choose between pushing with some rines/tanks/thor/raven and expanding ? I mean it depends on what your opponent is doing obviously, but what makes you go one way or the other ?
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On May 15 2010 16:51 AeonFlux wrote:here i just won vs 2 fast thors cas thors have no detection so bashee have 1st srike which kills 1st thor.then he scans but 1 thor cant do anything.
Just the fact that you said this proves your opponent was bad. Banshees have first strike so thor dies? Are you serious? You'd need like twenty 'first strikes' to kill a thor before he gets you. If at any point he bothered to scan and/or repair, then his first thor would have lived.
Let's not even get into the fact that at the time of his push, he had 700 extra gas and two macro buildings. He was also consistently late with the turrets and bad with the decision making. You killed a copper player.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 15 2010 19:57 StyX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 14:12 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Arnold, Banshee's are light so the nerf doesn't affect them at all (tho when the patch notes were first released, I was raging :D), although in general they were hugely nerfed vs T I think (now need 3 shots vs marauders, tanks etc). How do you handle the cloak ? Do you prefer eng bay or raven ? And how do you choose between pushing with some rines/tanks/thor/raven and expanding ? I mean it depends on what your opponent is doing obviously, but what makes you go one way or the other ?
Unless you are thor dropping, you probably need to get engineering bay before raven. Turrets don't have great range, but their detection range is still good (longer than they can shoot).
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my opponent was about 50th place platinum. btw i m too about 50 place in plat (i play not much, about 0-5 games a day)
but my problem is not tvt, in tvt i have about 90% win rate, but i lose much to imba zerg and imba toss
banshee make 22 damage to thor (2x(12-1 armro)) so 10 banshee kill thor (400 hp) in two hits. (so u have no time to scan)
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Go watch your own game again. From the time you engaged to the time he scanned, he was sitting on his ass for ten seconds. He had the energy, he just didn't bother. Quite frankly, he is no good.
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On May 16 2010 01:01 AeonFlux wrote:
my opponent was about 50th place platinum. btw i m too about 50 place in plat (i play not much, about 0-5 games a day)
but my problem is not tvt, in tvt i have about 90% win rate, but i lose much to imba zerg and imba toss
banshee make 22 damage to thor (2x(12-1 armro)) so 10 banshee kill thor (400 hp) in two hits. (so u have no time to scan)
Not sure why this guy still has posting abilities but we can see his stunning skill in this thread
everything is imba
and therefore arguing with him further is futile.
Regarding the 2 cloak-banshee opening I have one question. Why would you not start your first banshee then get cloak research going so that he can build energy while it researches? I don't see the timing window being effected this way and you have far more cloak time. It would effect your 2nd banshee a bit more but again it seems a safer way to go about it.
Offensively I don't like this because it assumes no scouting/no correct response from your opponent. However the ability to poke in and do damage if he didn't see it coming is nice, and the fall back to using them defensively for your expansion is pretty cool.
I will try this out with a practice partner later and see how it goes. The 7-8 minute mauarader push vs my expansion build has run into issues for me especially as he tends to just elevator them to the main if the expansion is bunkered. Maybe this will help
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can this also work with TvP or TvZ?
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Do this build against lower ranked people/custom games.
Usually doesn't work in normal TvT as they WILL burn a scan, see the fact with 1 rax opening and just build a starport with a reactor to outproduce you.
Good build against a T that is greedy and doesn't want to waste a scan.
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2 turrets = wasted banshees
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I like banshees but I usually skip cloak unless I intend to make a lot of em, 4+
They can still gather intel/harass/force your enemy to play defensive or counter (and go overboard on counter) while you switch tech, say tank/thor/rines. Its often a minimal cost if you go single starport, because you will want raven, medivacs or vikings later on.
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EPT
