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So it seems these days it's the fashion to fast expand with zerg, hoping to be able to defend the incoming cheese, so that you can steam roll your opponent effortlessly in the mid/ late game. It's obviously looked at as a macro strategy due to the fact it relies on numbers and macro mechanics once you are safe.
I on the other hand, would argue that it's more of a greed build, or even an economic cheese due to the fact that you are gambling on not being killed early.
I cannot understand why more top players do not use safer builds, which guarantee them safety from cheese. Zerg's macro potential is so strong, that a good player should be able to at least match or overcome the disadvanatge of having to expand ever so slightly later.
You only have to watch a few of the latest top tournaments, to see that going 14/15 pool 15/16 hatch is a great way to get free losses even if you are a great player.
/discuss
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Overuse of the term cheese; discuss.
IMO, I think provolone > cheddar, but that is just one man's opinion.
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I think you have a point though. It seems odd that attacking too early is "cheesey" but expanding too early is strategy.
I know the zerg FE is almost necessary at a high level, I get that. But I think players like Darkalbino who has replays in a thread here, and a few I have see from korea are onto something.
They basically get to lair first, then expand around ~25 or so supply. I'm studying Darkalbino especially and TheWinD. The other koreans I like I do not know their names because it just shows as ????? in SC2 beta.
EDIT:
Here is dark albino. Very bottom of page 2.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123528¤tpage=2
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Fast expanding is no longer considered cheese, but rather a standard strategy. Zerg cannot even compete in the mid-game against T or P unless they play mass macro for as long as possible.
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You pretty much need the 2nd hatch early to keep up unit production unless you're going for a roach all in imo.
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On May 06 2010 10:20 FrostFire626 wrote:
Fast expanding is no longer considered cheese, but rather a standard strategy. Zerg cannot even compete in the mid-game against T or P unless they play mass macro for as long as possible.
I'm not saying they don't expand\macro. Its just some of these players with new and interesting strategy's are doing it slightly slower. Slow as in zerg-time not actually slow.
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I absolutely agree that fast lair is better than fast expand. I find that the final tally for resources in a 10-15 minute game (which is pretty average, I think) is similar for fast expand and fast lair, and you have a lot more latitude on unit selection and upgrades (earlier upgrades = win, all else being equal).
Blizzard is smart, and balancing a race so that you must build a second hatchery before any other building would be pretty silly.
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I dont think it could be called economic 'cheese' since its just a economic build. And i thought that 'cheese' builds were builds that are designed to kill your opponent quickly and that are usually all-in because of that.
I think that, if the current trend is to be very aggressive early on, as you said, it will force people to play a bit safer.
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According to this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123613
Cheese
A strategy that relies overwhelmingly or entirely on secrecy. If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage, or right out costs him the game.
Look at #3 on the list: 14 cc. Smells cheesy.
I think this is a beta. And it is in flux, and everyone is still trying to find the best way to do things. Currently Zerg were FEing to take advantage of their race. And now that people are starting to counter the Zergs are going: What the hell, how do I stop [insert rush type] while getting my 14\15\16 Hatch? Rather than try new approaches.
So maybe at super high levels of play FE is a necessity. But I don't think the majority of players are at that level.
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It's strategy because the entire point is to adapt to what your opponent is doing and macro based upon that.
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But I don't think it's called strategy still when the answer to everything is FE. Look at IdrA vs. Orb. He scouted and outright refused to cancel his hatch. Im sure he had his reasons, but he never altered his build in any game. How is that reactionary?
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On May 06 2010 10:21 Toadily wrote:
You pretty much need the 2nd hatch early to keep up unit production unless you're going for a roach all in imo.
Excellent third post. Exactly how does your opinion make sense?
"If you're constantly producing units, then it's fine. But otherwise, you need a 2nd hatch"
I agree with the sentiment that expanding right away at 14-16 food is a free loss. I have commented many times on it and I am still baffled as to why anyone does it. Even tournament players are doing it and getting their asses kicked soundly and they just refuse to step back and say "maybe this isn't working..." or "maybe this isn't SC1"
Expanding around 25 food seems like a much better proposition to me. I'll usually expand in the late 20/early 30 area and find the game much more enjoyable when I actually have an army before I expand instead of playing simcity for the first 10 minutes of the game.
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On May 06 2010 10:34 roark wrote:
But I don't think it's called strategy still when the answer to everything is FE. Look at IdrA vs. Orb. He scouted and outright refused to cancel his hatch. Im sure he had his reasons, but he never altered his build in any game. How is that reactionary?
In sc1 except for extreme examples it was standard to use the same opening every game up to a point regardless of what was happening.
Also, I may not know what I am talking about, but I don't think Idra is the best example to use. He has always struck me as a robotic type player.
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It's not cheese and this is showing the overuse of the term; people are trying to make robust builds out of it that can survive early game and win late game. Whether it's going to be a stable strategy in the long term remains to be seen.
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Yeah someone ran some theory numbers here:
+ Show Spoiler +Just some numbers. I'm not going to post any strategy, but I think numbers are useful, especially for new zerg players who have the opportunity to overdo it or underdo it with drone-count accidentally.
No Macro:
A protoss player can make a probe every 17 seconds.
A Hatchery makes a larva every 15 seconds.
If a zerg player uses 8/9 larva on drones, and 1/9 larva on overlords, he produces a drone every 16.875 seconds on average.
Queen vs. Chronoboost:
Chronoboost has an uptime of about 50%. (40 seconds to get 25 energy. 20 second duration).
Chronoboost increases speed of construction to 150% (125% average because of 50% uptime)
A Protoss constantly chronoboosting the nexus can produce a probe every 13.6 seconds.
A Zerg player who produces a drone with every hatch larva (and uses queen spawned larva to make overlords) makes a drone every 15 seconds.
A Zerg player who produces a drone with every hatch larva, and 1 additional drone from queen-spawned larva for every 10 hatch larva will make a drone every 13.6 seconds. (Pretty much even with protoss chronoboosting)
A Zerg player with constant spawn larva generates 20 larva every 120 seconds. Using all larva for drones and overlords can create a drone about every 6.8 seconds.
Balancing Military:
A Zerg player who matches a protoss with chronoboost on 1 hatch 1 queen uses about 10 larva every 120 seconds to generate drones. That means they can create a military unit, building, or overlord to support military every 12 seconds on average.
Cliff Notes:
Protoss w/no chrono makes a probe every 17s.
Protoss w/constant chrono makes a probe every 13.6s.
Zerg w/no queen makes a drone every 16.9s
Zerg w/queen can make a drone as fast as every 6.8s (no military/building)
Zerg w/queen using half larva for military/production makes a drone every 13.6s
Zerg w/queen using half larva for droning can make a t1 military unit (1 supply) every 13.6s -or- a building every 12s.
Protoss gateway can warp in t1 unit at a rate of 2 supply per 33s.
Protoss warpgate can warp in t1 unit at a rate of 2 supply per 23s.
Protoss military starts to outproduce a balanced zerg 1-hatch/queen production schedule at 2 gates.
Once Zerg hits lair tech, production ability goes up, as it can build t2 units at a rate of 1 every 10.4 seconds (4/5 hydras, 1/5 overlords) which is about equivalent to 3 warpgates producing stalkers. (non-chronoboosted)
Again, not giving any advice, just some interesting numbers that you can play with to try and let you keep up with toss probe production without overcommitting to drones or military.
I'm not sure of the accuracy but if anything I think it supports the safer non-FE play-style being likely valid.
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On May 06 2010 10:40 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 10:34 roark wrote:
But I don't think it's called strategy still when the answer to everything is FE. Look at IdrA vs. Orb. He scouted and outright refused to cancel his hatch. Im sure he had his reasons, but he never altered his build in any game. How is that reactionary? In sc1 except for extreme examples it was standard to use the same opening every game up to a point regardless of what was happening. Also, I may not know what I am talking about, but I don't think Idra is the best example to use. He has always struck me as a robotic type player.
I would have to agree with you there. IdrA is a bit static it seems.
I still think though that because this is a beta no one can say that Zerg super-fast FE is "the build" and it seems even though people are trying to flesh it out -- maybe some people should just step WAYY back and start from scratch.
That is what DarkAlbino and some Koreans are doing. And I like watching their results.
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But, 1base tech protoss, and terran will beat 1base tech zerg alot of the time due to the squishyness of the zergs army, and the lack of unit combos. Thats why they say when a zerg is a base ahead, it's about even.
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On May 06 2010 10:45 roark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 10:40 travis wrote:On May 06 2010 10:34 roark wrote:
But I don't think it's called strategy still when the answer to everything is FE. Look at IdrA vs. Orb. He scouted and outright refused to cancel his hatch. Im sure he had his reasons, but he never altered his build in any game. How is that reactionary? In sc1 except for extreme examples it was standard to use the same opening every game up to a point regardless of what was happening. Also, I may not know what I am talking about, but I don't think Idra is the best example to use. He has always struck me as a robotic type player. I would have to agree with you there. IdrA is a bit static it seems. I still think though that because this is a beta no one can say that Zerg super-fast FE is "the build" and it seems even though people are trying to flesh it out -- maybe some people should just step WAYY back and start from scratch. That is what DarkAlbino and some Koreans are doing. And I like watching their results.
Oh I agree absolutely. There are tons of things to be discovered!
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On May 06 2010 10:46 BigDates wrote:
But, 1base tech protoss, and terran will beat 1base tech zerg alot of the time due to the squishyness of the zergs army, and the lack of unit combos. Thats why they say when a zerg is a base ahead, it's about even.
I agree but this "slower" build isn't denying units. Its getting access to a wider variety of units faster and still on par with P and T gatherer\unit production. Around the point when it should fall behind, maybe even sooner, you expand.
See the guy with the crazy math says:
Protoss military starts to outproduce a balanced zerg 1-hatch/queen production schedule at 2 gates.
Which can't be too far off from ~25-30 food, and you have a bit of an army to help defend your FE.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2010 10:37 Vexx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 10:21 Toadily wrote:
You pretty much need the 2nd hatch early to keep up unit production unless you're going for a roach all in imo. Excellent third post. Exactly how does your opinion make sense? "If you're constantly producing units, then it's fine. But otherwise, you need a 2nd hatch" I agree with the sentiment that expanding right away at 14-16 food is a free loss. I have commented many times on it and I am still baffled as to why anyone does it. Even tournament players are doing it and getting their asses kicked soundly and they just refuse to step back and say "maybe this isn't working..." or "maybe this isn't SC1" Expanding around 25 food seems like a much better proposition to me. I'll usually expand in the late 20/early 30 area and find the game much more enjoyable when I actually have an army before I expand instead of playing simcity for the first 10 minutes of the game.
So basicly you say 14 pool, 15 or 16 hatch is a free loss. Then i wonder how all those best of the best zerg players i watch became the best, because thats what they do in many of their games.
Zerg is my main too, but im more of a gold player although i got placed plat after my last reset, and i feel when i go 1 base i have to play really aggresive and i have to damage my opponent to be equal in the mid game. If i fail to do a good amount of damage/harass i mostly lose my games. When a zerg goes FE and defends it, hes on the button. Thats the difference. And its not that hard to go FE with zerg against many standard builds.
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EPT
