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On May 06 2010 10:53 creepcolony wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2010 10:37 Vexx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 10:21 Toadily wrote:
You pretty much need the 2nd hatch early to keep up unit production unless you're going for a roach all in imo. Excellent third post. Exactly how does your opinion make sense? "If you're constantly producing units, then it's fine. But otherwise, you need a 2nd hatch" I agree with the sentiment that expanding right away at 14-16 food is a free loss. I have commented many times on it and I am still baffled as to why anyone does it. Even tournament players are doing it and getting their asses kicked soundly and they just refuse to step back and say "maybe this isn't working..." or "maybe this isn't SC1" Expanding around 25 food seems like a much better proposition to me. I'll usually expand in the late 20/early 30 area and find the game much more enjoyable when I actually have an army before I expand instead of playing simcity for the first 10 minutes of the game. So basicly you say 14 pool, 15 or 16 hatch is a free loss. Then i wonder how all those best of the best zerg players i watch became the best, because thats what they do in many of their games. Zerg is my main too, but im more of a gold player although i got placed plat after my last reset, and i feel when i go 1 base i have to play really aggresive and i have to damage my opponent to be equal in the mid game. If i fail to do a good amount of damage/harass i mostly lose my games. When a zerg goes FE and defends it, hes on the button. Thats the difference. And its not that hard to go FE with zerg against many standard builds.
I think the 14/15/16 hatch is considered so good and used by top players now because early aggression is considered cheesy and taboo among top players.
Once top players get tired of losing to 7 base zerg, they will become much more aggressive and zerg will have to adapt.
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On May 06 2010 10:37 Vexx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 10:21 Toadily wrote:
You pretty much need the 2nd hatch early to keep up unit production unless you're going for a roach all in imo. Excellent third post. Exactly how does your opinion make sense? "If you're constantly producing units, then it's fine. But otherwise, you need a 2nd hatch" .
Because you're building another tech building early on and cutting on drones since you don't need a fully saturated mineral/gas to be able to constantly pump out roaches off of one hatch for the all in.
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I'm with the OP, how is FE the normal, especially on ZvZ?
Maybe I'm not doing it right, but wouldn't a 1 basing Zerg beat a FE simply get more lings, run past the spine crawlers at the expand and just demolish the economy at the main?
edit:
This is what I do all the time in 2v2.
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There's a big difference between building your hatch at your natural and saturating it. Just because a Zerg needs to throw a hatch down to keep the proper amount of larva going, doesn't mean they need to spam 25 workers. The problem is that a lot of Zergs don't know how to have an expansion and not saturate it. You need the hatch for the larva, so you may as well throw down like half your drones since it'll be more efficient. But you can slowly saturate it, it doesn't need to be instant.
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On May 06 2010 11:14 Mohdoo wrote:
There's a big difference between building your hatch at your natural and saturating it. Just because a Zerg needs to throw a hatch down to keep the proper amount of larva going, doesn't mean they need to spam 25 workers. The problem is that a lot of Zergs don't know how to have an expansion and not saturate it. You need the hatch for the larva, so you may as well throw down like half your drones since it'll be more efficient. But you can slowly saturate it, it doesn't need to be instant.
But isn't that why Blizzard gave us the Queen. For half the price you don't have to over extend yourself with a FE early. You also increase drone production and have 150m left over for either: 6 zerglings to help the queen defend, or minerals for lair, etc.
It still seems to me like with the Queen and the ability for T and P to apply quick aggression the FE isn't the ideal standard.
This doesn't mean you sit on 1 base forever either. It just means you don't FE before you have enough units to not get rolled.
You still expand earlier than the other races, just not in such a way that you put yourself at such an incredible risk.
I think everyone will assume FE is the only way to play until some pro-gamer does something different and then because he is a "pro" everyone else is willing to switch.
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I'm a macro player, and i do not get hurt by:
- reaper harass
- 2 gate rush
- 6 pools
simply because, if you scout: reaper/ 6 pool you 10 pool get 2 lings + queen + 1 spine crawler and ur good
if the other guy is 2 gateing, you can still 14 pool / 14 hatch and win...
Just drop the hatch and start lings... once you have enough lings, you can defend with your queen vs zealots until you get your spine crawlers up
Really the thing is... with queen + 2 hatch thats 14 larva for drones / army. This means in ZvZ i can produce more units and in ZvT/P i can keep up and then surpass chronoboost and mules...
Spine Crawlers (like 2 - 3 for Z or T and like 6 for P) makes the FE super safe.
I mean seriously if you scout cheese just 10 pool (cheese as in 6 pool or reaper) but if they are just going to do early agression (so an early timing push) Spine Crawlers and lings are enough to keep you alive till you get your lair and spire / hydra den up...
I mean, when I pop my 2nd hatch I don't just start spamming drones, I get lings, crawlers, and then when I have my def up do I start using my 14 larva for drones to surpass my opponents econ.
Edit: choke + spine crawlers and queen and lings of my own = no one is getting up that ramp, and ur lings die since my spine crawlers two shoot your lings...
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On May 06 2010 11:41 Insanious wrote:
Edit: choke + spine crawlers and queen and lings of my own = no one is getting up that ramp, and ur lings die since my spine crawlers two shoot your lings...
How do you get to your choke? Do you sacrifice larvae for an early tumour, or are you talking about the choke at the natural. In that case, doesn't it depend on the terrain.
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On May 06 2010 11:41 Insanious wrote:
I'm a macro player, and i do not get hurt by:
- reaper harass
- 2 gate rush
- 6 pools
simply because, if you scout: reaper/ 6 pool you 10 pool get 2 lings + queen + 1 spine crawler and ur good
if the other guy is 2 gateing, you can still 14 pool / 14 hatch and win...
Just drop the hatch and start lings... once you have enough lings, you can defend with your queen vs zealots until you get your spine crawlers up
Really the thing is... with queen + 2 hatch thats 14 larva for drones / army. This means in ZvZ i can produce more units and in ZvT/P i can keep up and then surpass chronoboost and mules...
Spine Crawlers (like 2 - 3 for Z or T and like 6 for P) makes the FE super safe.
I mean seriously if you scout cheese just 10 pool (cheese as in 6 pool or reaper) but if they are just going to do early agression (so an early timing push) Spine Crawlers and lings are enough to keep you alive till you get your lair and spire / hydra den up...
I mean, when I pop my 2nd hatch I don't just start spamming drones, I get lings, crawlers, and then when I have my def up do I start using my 14 larva for drones to surpass my opponents econ.
Edit: choke + spine crawlers and queen and lings of my own = no one is getting up that ramp, and ur lings die since my spine crawlers two shoot your lings...
I don't think the fact that this works is the point of contention. And even though you clearly have a good strategy that doesn't mean this FE build is supposed to be the standard.
You admit if you scout cheese you have to adapt and 10pool, etc. Which means that FE is a FE. Its a way to try and get ahead, but if countered you have to adapt.
Standard would imply that regardless of what the opponent does you can do your build. It is safe.
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To be fair... really the only thing that makes me 10 pool reliably is 7 rax reapers.
6 pools only get me on like steps... or close base metalopolis.
Other then those two situations i stay with my FE, those situations have me:
- extractor trick
- pool
- 1 crawler + queen + lings
- expand at like 17 or 18
Not a huge alteration, but its the same way that terran has to change his wall if he expects a baneling bust...
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On May 06 2010 11:27 roark wrote:
But isn't that why Blizzard gave us the Queen. For half the price you don't have to over extend yourself with a FE early. You also increase drone production and have 150m left over for either: 6 zerglings to help the queen defend, or minerals for lair, etc.
Sitting on only 1 base, if they hit you and fail but take out even a handful of your drones, you are set behind enormously. 1hatch 1 queen is comparable to a 2 gate toss production wise, but if you have to rebuild say, 4-6 drones from a hit, thats 4-6 less roaches or 8-12 less speedlings for the next time they hit. And god forbid they take out your queen...
2 hatches is a little harder to defend, but much easier to recover with. The point of a zerg FE isn't usually to saturate (you leave that for people who don't rush, or when your opponent FE'd also) but so you don't stuck waiting 40 seconds to get larvae or sitting there spamming S on your hatch waiting for those oh so precious little maggots to spawn so you can build stuff, while you are still waiting on a replacement queen. It can hurt.
Typically if you delay that second hatch too long, you need to either be successful in hurting their economic advantage so they can't afford to outproduce you, or you're going all in with either a baneling bust, or roaches
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On May 06 2010 11:51 roark wrote:
[Standard would imply that regardless of what the opponent does you can do your build. It is safe.
If that's your definition, then there would be absolutely no standard builds at all.
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Yeah safe isn't really the best way to define it.
I'm just saying standard or the typical way to play shouldn't be so risky and haphazard like the current zerg FE opening is.
The Zerg build as it is now resembles "economic" cheese more than anything. And people get away with it, or try to do anything to make it work, rather than explore new possibilities that is all I'm saying.
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If you FE properly then it is not risky... there is 0 risk from P when I FE, there is very LITTLE risk from T less he proxy 7 rax reaper rushes me, which leaves him very behind, or if Z all in 6 pools me...
There are only 2 builds in the game that stop me 14 pool/14 hatching. To me that's very safe. And the 2 builds that disrupt my FE... I still FE at 17 or 18 only 3 food later (queen + 4 lings -1 food for spine crawler)
This seems very safe to me, I have yet to lose my FE on the ladder no matter what my opponent does... spine crawlers, queens, and lings can hold off everything as long as you don't start power droneing the second the FE comes up and you get defenses first.
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i was never talking about 1 base play. I'm just talking about a safer opening with a quick transition into 2 base play.
the people i play against usually probe/scv block my natural anyway, so its more economic for me to wait for my first 2 lings before i place my hat. There is no reason why someone cannot easily block your nat unless its a 4 player map and they scout you late.
whats the point in planning a build where you are gonna waste mining time with a drone 50% of your games before you can place your natural.
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I just don't know how people are having a hard time keeping there FE... I mean litterally:
- 14 pool
- 13 drone
- 14 hatch
- 13 extractor
- Drone till 15
- 15 OL
- 15 Queen
- 17 lings
- drone hard
- hatch pops pops
- queen
- SC
- SC
- SC
- SC
- drone hard
- lair first 100 gas
- just enough lings (like 6 - 8) to keep things off the spine crawlers while they do their dmg
basically this... 1 less SC vs T and Z...
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I am literally loling here
"FE is a free loss" yeah...that's why im platinum, its from losing lol
If you scout @ 10 supply, which is kinda like 9 drone scout, you can see everything your opponent is doing, and if he is cheesing in some sort of way -> overpool
if not -> 14 pool-15hatch. If he is toss he should have 2 zealots, who can't do jack shit, or few marines who get raep'd by queen + 2xlings.
Now that you have a queen, you are actually encouraged to FE right after pool since you have some kind of defence
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On May 06 2010 10:11 baconbits wrote:
Overuse of the term cheese; discuss.
IMO, I think provolone > cheddar, but that is just one man's opinion.
Provolone >>>>>>>> cheddar
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Do any zergs feel like they are contained too easily by p after an FE?
I have a friend that stays around the top of his plat div. and nearly always FE's. If I see him do this I can add a second gas early and make a pretty normal push with 1-2 immortals while expanding behind it. If he tries to move out (hydra roach mainly) I have enough sentries to cut his army in half, basically stopping any attack. After this the game continues normally, but he rarely out macro's me late game like this FE with sc's is supposed to do.
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On May 06 2010 10:18 roark wrote:
They basically get to lair first, then expand around ~25 or so supply. I'm studying Darkalbino especially and TheWinD. The other koreans I like I do not know their names because it just shows as ????? in SC2 beta.
This is what I do also. I find it gives me more options. I have a shorter time to get hydra in case I suddenly see mass air or infestor against terran. Often I just go muta harass afterwards for the extra scouting information and the fact that it often forces them to make something I can beat more easily (with hydras), especially again terran.
Also, all overlords become speed upgrades with the Highway to Hell. You get a bit more time to scout everything properly, which helps on my skill lvl 
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To be honest I think you all got trolled by the OP
So it seems these days it's the fashion to fast expand with zerg, hoping to be able to defend the incoming cheese,
Scouting on 10 will let you be aware of most cheeses and then its your choice to FE or stay at 1 base
so that you can steam roll your opponent effortlessly in the mid/ late game
Zerg need the extra base to keep up in production and even if Zerg has the extra base it doesn't automatically mean that he is getting more minerals he would need to produce the drones to fully saturate the mineral line
I cannot understand why more top players do not use safer builds, which guarantee them safety from cheese. Zerg's macro potential is so strong, that a good player should be able to at least match or overcome the disadvanatge of having to expand ever so slightly later.
Top Zerg players know that other races timing push (if they choose to do it) will kill them if they don't build their economy first
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EPT
