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On May 06 2010 20:42 EximoSua2 wrote:
You might wanna mention that in the rep pack, you don't build a fucking GHOST in a lot of the games.
On May 06 2010 21:15 EximoSua2 wrote:
Ok, finally saw a rep that actually had this strategy in it.
At about 31:30 of your game against Water, you triple Nuke his last expansion. He surrounds the cloaked Ghosts, and kills all 3 before the pylon is built to give the photon cannons energy. How did he see your Ghosts? It's late here maybe I missed something?
The guide is for the raven opening too  which a lot of people may have never seen before, though I know some have already. There are plenty of games in there with the transition into ghost mech though
as for the thing about seeing the ghosts, iirc, there was probably a cannon, that was not in range to shoot the ghosts, but could probably still have the ghosts in detection range is what I am thinking.
On May 06 2010 23:26 foxj wrote:
When i use this strat, often Toss change to expand and create Colossus - Stalker blink - immortal and some sentry lol ... With blink all my siege tanks seems disable and hellion owned by colosuss, pluss Hellion would useless when no light armor in Toss combo o.O
May I did something wrong or how to counter to Toss who goes expand and create Colosssus - Stalker blink ? Keep harrasing ?
well, Protoss will not be able to FE in a response to this, though some builds Protoss can do can let them get an expo up quickly - usually I think those are void ray openings that let P get their natural up pretty fast due to the pressure on you.
as for collosus, this is a matter of scouting. Siege tanks themselves do good against collossus, but if you see them getting many collosus, then you need to get vikings with your army.
Whether that is just single queue on your tech labbed starport, or if you need to switch the starport to your reactor...that is just a decision you need to make in each game based on the situation.
The build and strategy are just that...a build order and a strategy. It is not gonna be a cure-all for everything, you have to play it smart, practice fundamentals like scouting, and react well to everything the Protoss does. That is heavily up to practice you put in, and experience with recognizing what Protoss is doing.
That means for instance, if Protoss goes with the phoenix build, you have lots of opportunities to neutralize the phoenix building vikings from your starport, and then counter-hellion dropping them, as they are going to be relatively weak on the ground. They will be even weaker if they went with a void ray opening and you shut it down cold. Go pressure them/contain and expand yourself.
as for stalkers with blink, they are usually never a problem as long as you are being careful and not exposing tanks for no reason. This strategy does call for a lot of patience in many situations in-game. An example of a situation like you describe would be, say, it is past the mid-game push you did and Protoss has a lot of stalkers with blink.
If you blindly move across the map with no SCV scout, no comsat scan, or anything in advance, and you end up walking into stalkers and siege at that moment, it's no doubt they will probably shred you to pieces if there are enough stalkers.
The Terran in that instance would have been treating this like it was marauder bio, which it is not. Every little movement matters when you move out with this, so you need to monitor opponent's troop positioning so you know when to siege.
if in that same situation, the Terran scouts ahead with an scv/hellion, or you comsatted the position of their stalkers, suddenly you can know to siege ahead of time and move slowly forward, and then instead of your tanks being shredded and blinked on, you see the first few stalkers get obliterated and he retreats. It makes all the difference.
On May 06 2010 20:15 dustdust wrote:
Awesome guide, avilo.
Can you please elaborate on when to get and when to use/not use siege mode?
You always want to keep track of your opponent's army as much as you can (this goes for any game you play of course). If you are going to be attacking you'll want to move towards your opponent as much as you can without needing to siege, but if you see their units begin to move on your position, siege up, and move forward a bit more slow.
And if you see a situation where you should run, by all means, run. There can be times when you thought you were good to go, and you realize suddenly you have a ratio of 3:1 tanks/hellions and the guy started to amass 4:1 zealot/stalker or something. That would be when you want to run  unless you see you can siege up and win the fight.
Otherwise, when you want to move out, you do not wanna have your army sieged, but if you are defending an expansion, you will wanna be in siege mode.
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In your game against water you only had a single factory producing tanks the entire game, as well as a single factory for hellions, while you kept producing banshees and marines.
It was effective, yes, but I would not call this ghostmech - more like the everything build. 
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The most problematic thing for me when I've been doing these builds is this:
I can't do a midgame push very easily without mines. Protoss takes more bases than me. I slowly eat up the map and do a big lategame push only to see 10 carriers show up. I lose because I can't make enough vikings because you have to be economically even to beat carriers. (carriers are a little less than cost even vs vikings. EMP helps of course but vikings also suck vs anything not carriers/voidrays/coli.
My concern with ghostmech is 2-fold:
-Some of the maps right now are really bad for mech play. Anything with a backdoor especially sucks.
-There aren't any really effective timing pushes you can do that I've found. You're forced to play for lategame and have to hope that you can gobble up enough bases without getting overrun.
I think they should change thor AA to no longer be +light and just max to everything. Terran needs a more viable GtA option than marines cause marines suck past earlygame.
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cool opening, i transit into MMM+tanks/few hellions(sometimes)+ghost+raven+viking/banshee
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On May 07 2010 02:20 Floophead_III wrote:
The most problematic thing for me when I've been doing these builds is this:
I can't do a midgame push very easily without mines. Protoss takes more bases than me. I slowly eat up the map and do a big lategame push only to see 10 carriers show up. I lose because I can't make enough vikings because you have to be economically even to beat carriers. (carriers are a little less than cost even vs vikings. EMP helps of course but vikings also suck vs anything not carriers/voidrays/coli.
My concern with ghostmech is 2-fold:
-Some of the maps right now are really bad for mech play. Anything with a backdoor especially sucks.
-There aren't any really effective timing pushes you can do that I've found. You're forced to play for lategame and have to hope that you can gobble up enough bases without getting overrun.
I think they should change thor AA to no longer be +light and just max to everything. Terran needs a more viable GtA option than marines cause marines suck past earlygame.
This is why I bio-ghost-mech. I think pure mech is terrible because of the reliance on hellions as a mineral sink. I find hellions to be just absolutely horrible. Besides requiring two sets of upgrades, I don't see why ghost mech would have any advantage over bio-ghost-mech.
I can be aggressive as soon as my army gets ghosts and tanks finishes upgrading.
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There seems to be a window around the time the raven gets out and before 1st seige tank where the build is vulnerable to an all-in. I've been trying this build in 2's so maybe its not relevant to 1v1's.
The problem is, marines alone cannot hold a wall that has a supply depot in the composition, and once that supply depot is destroyed then you'll be overrun.
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On May 07 2010 02:48 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 02:20 Floophead_III wrote:
The most problematic thing for me when I've been doing these builds is this:
I can't do a midgame push very easily without mines. Protoss takes more bases than me. I slowly eat up the map and do a big lategame push only to see 10 carriers show up. I lose because I can't make enough vikings because you have to be economically even to beat carriers. (carriers are a little less than cost even vs vikings. EMP helps of course but vikings also suck vs anything not carriers/voidrays/coli.
My concern with ghostmech is 2-fold:
-Some of the maps right now are really bad for mech play. Anything with a backdoor especially sucks.
-There aren't any really effective timing pushes you can do that I've found. You're forced to play for lategame and have to hope that you can gobble up enough bases without getting overrun.
I think they should change thor AA to no longer be +light and just max to everything. Terran needs a more viable GtA option than marines cause marines suck past earlygame. This is why I bio-ghost-mech. I think pure mech is terrible because of the reliance on hellions as a mineral sink. I find hellions to be just absolutely horrible. Besides requiring two sets of upgrades, I don't see why ghost mech would have any advantage over bio-ghost-mech. I can be aggressive as soon as my army gets ghosts and tanks finishes upgrading.
Actually tbh marines are a far stupider mineral sink. Hellions can deal with chargelots far better than marines and marines don't give you any map control. Hellions provide scouting info, keep protoss on their toes, and actually benefit from upgrades with your tanks, unlike marines.
Also you can't quickly replace marines like you can hellions. Lose 20 hellions and 2 tanks in a push? Make hellions from all your factories.
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I actually use Marines and Marauders as mineral sink, not just pure marines. With stim, they deal with most gateway units just fine as well as keep me relatively safe from voidrays.
I prefer harassing/scouting with reapers or thor drops rather than with hellions.
With hellions, my ghost/tanks have to deal with stalkers/immortals all by themselves, which I find to be insufficient. I will only grudgingly add some hellions in my army if the toss likes to go very heavy zealot/HT.
Oh, I don't upgrade my mech because I don't think the increased tank damage is very helpful. I only upgrade bio and air.
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On May 07 2010 03:52 Floophead_III wrote:
Actually tbh marines are a far stupider mineral sink. Hellions can deal with chargelots far better than marines and marines don't give you any map control. Hellions provide scouting info, keep protoss on their toes, and actually benefit from upgrades with your tanks, unlike marines.
Also you can't quickly replace marines like you can hellions. Lose 20 hellions and 2 tanks in a push? Make hellions from all your factories.
it takes more gas to get igniter..
it takes buildling time from tanks.. u are constantly buildling tanks...
buildling another factory would be again.. more gas...
notice his build is very gas heavy and can't afford it?
marines are a great mineral sink because they counter non-guardian shielded units as well as soft-counter voidrays from your base...
hellions are better solution for later game, but for the early push that comes to the toss base.. those rines are very scary...
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well, Protoss will not be able to FE in a response to this, though some builds Protoss can do can let them get an expo up quickly - usually I think those are void ray openings that let P get their natural up pretty fast due to the pressure on you.
this is what i have most problems with. heavy voidray openings (3-4) deny any early aggression,force me to get reactored vikings to be able to expo in atleast reasonable time and just throw up my whole gameplan.
played this one game on lt or metalopolis crosspositions(not sure but doesnt matter much) where the P just straight rushed voidrays and i scouted with the scv at the point when the stargate was halfway done (he didnt even build a stalker before the stargate..).
he just expoed super early and delayd my cc flyover as much as possible with his voidrays and a proxy pylon to warp in a small groundforce and frome there on i could never catchup to him again. he was heavily ahead in food all game long and just expoed aggressively leaving me no opportunity to attack at any point after my first attack(when i had enough vikings and 1 ghost) was defended.
i really like the build and even tho i feel like you have to heavily outmicro the P its strong and fun to use. but still voidrays are my bane and make me rage harder then anything in starcraft ever before.
With hellions, my ghost/tanks have to deal with stalkers/immortals all by themselves, which I find to be insufficient. I will only grudgingly add some hellions in my army if the toss likes to go very heavy zealot/HT.
feel the same. hellions just dont seem to cut it. they all die after shooting 1-2 times and then your tanks are totally open to remaining chargelots,blink stalkers,or whatever going straight into em.
they just cant fullfill the role of vultures in a fight. they not only seem to be worse then vultures vs zeals (the oh so great aoe is next to useless) but also completly lack the strong shield dmg vultures had. if hellions had + dmg to shields and either had more hp or cost 75 instead of 100 or just be able to shoot/move like vultures i would gladly use them.
but right now i never feel like getting more then a few hellions to harrass or mix in vs light heavy armies is worth it cause of their pathetic dps(even against light its not exactly super great and vs evrything else they have the dps of a scv),clumsiness and low hp.
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vs light with igniter hellions have very good DPS. Considering protoss is forced to make some zealots, as it's their only mineral outlet, hellions do have some merit. The problem I have with mech though is that the whole support doesn't synergize much with it. In BW mech had goliaths for AA, in sc2 mech has the thor which is only good against phoenix and muta. You are forced to go backup units with mech in the form of ghosts and vikings to deal with lots of stuff. When you do that i always wonder why I wouldnt bother to just have tanks as my backup to bio instead of bio&air as backup to mech. The hellion somehow doesn't seem worth it and the counters to bio, colossi and HT, are countered by the very same ghost and viking you are forced to make eventually with mech as well.
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Wouldn't protoss cannons or stalkers prevent the helion harrass?
Then the protoss could build enough void rays to either completely overpower your vikings or force you to build more rines to counter.
Also, it seems that if the protoss could pick off your ghosts with air then the build becomes vulnerable to immortals again.
It just seems that in general, if the protoss player went 3 gate void rays, this build would have a bunch of difficulties.
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Hah, avilo, you had great timing posting this build right before it gets buffed in the patch
Now there is ever more incentive to use it
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tried ghost mech before patching started in EU and I got a victory ^^
thanks for the aid.
Signed: A copper league noob.
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How would this build counter mass void ray if the protoss could contain you to 2 bases in the beginning while he expands all over the place...
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On May 07 2010 07:07 Mr.Eternity wrote:
How would this build counter mass void ray if the protoss could contain you to 2 bases in the beginning while he expands all over the place...
if this build doesn't counter mass void ray what build does? in the beginning you have more marines and can get vikings faster then any other build.
if this doesn't counter void rays you are basically saying terran cant win vs void ray.
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if this doesn't counter void rays you are basically saying terran cant win vs void ray.
Void Rays cost 250/150 so getting just 2 void rays would almost cost 1000 combined minerals.
If the Terran player could produce more cheap upgraded marines with the addition of EMP to remove some shields, the Void Ray would become useless.
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On May 07 2010 07:20 Mr.Eternity wrote:Show nested quote +if this doesn't counter void rays you are basically saying terran cant win vs void ray. Void Rays cost 250/150 so getting just 2 void rays would almost cost 1000 combined minerals. If the Terran player could produce more cheap upgraded marines with the addition of EMP to remove some shields, the Void Ray would become useless.
that build dies to everything else.
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On May 07 2010 04:00 NightOne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 03:52 Floophead_III wrote:
Actually tbh marines are a far stupider mineral sink. Hellions can deal with chargelots far better than marines and marines don't give you any map control. Hellions provide scouting info, keep protoss on their toes, and actually benefit from upgrades with your tanks, unlike marines.
Also you can't quickly replace marines like you can hellions. Lose 20 hellions and 2 tanks in a push? Make hellions from all your factories. it takes more gas to get igniter.. it takes buildling time from tanks.. u are constantly buildling tanks... buildling another factory would be again.. more gas... notice his build is very gas heavy and can't afford it? marines are a great mineral sink because they counter non-guardian shielded units as well as soft-counter voidrays from your base... hellions are better solution for later game, but for the early push that comes to the toss base.. those rines are very scary...
I kindly disagree and know you are wrong. If you don't get hellions ignitor in the game, this build is bound to fall apart. Protoss will start pushing you vs you pushing him. Ignitor is essential man! Not only to take out zelots quicker, but the main idea is to probe harass, and ignitor jail rapes probes. With the patch 11 buff, you have slightly more time to do harass or bail if you get swarmed by too many zelots.
If you see voidrays you will pump marines and aa of course. But a lot of Protoss give up on voidrays after 3-4 of them die, they're super expensive.
The build is super gas heavy but you can afford ignitor. If you pump marines instead of hellions, watch yourself cry when all your tanks get targeted.
20-30 marines would be annihilated against a toss army, and maybe that's ok! After a quick exchange, you've lost 80% of his marines, but your tanks also took out 80% of his army. So you're dead even, right? WRONG! Good luck making 20-30 marines out of your one barracks by the time toss comes and poops all over your tanks.
4 refinery should be able to support constant tank, your upgrades, and air support. Ghosts will be pricey after that, but if you're smart you will not lose them without making them count. You need hellions for scouting too, which is so important with this build.
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Looks like patch 11 buffed your build
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EPT
