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Hello,
I'm top 5 in my gold league and trying hard to establish a solid TvP strategy/build to advance. Last night I thought I'd give this ghost mech a shot.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-140190.jpg)
My question is how to deal with the possibility of this proxy 2 gate cheese without compromising the ghost mech build. If I alter the build so that I get the second depot (to finish the wall) before the first gas, will I be screwing up the tech timings significantly?
Basically, this cheese is so prevalent in my level of play that I can't develop a legit TvP strategy without first considering how to wall immediately and then transition into a regular build if proxy doesn't happen.
Thanks!
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I've had a lot of sucess with this build against protoss. But one protoss I faced, got Blink Stalkers right fromt he beginning. On Lost Temple, the susceptible cliff to Blink is so big and he harassed my main like crazy. Any advice?
Also, it doesn't really work for me all the time on all maps. On maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, it's fine, but on something like Blistering Sands, with a backdoor, I have a lot of trouble with the lack of mobility. So similar problem to the Blink Stalkers.
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On August 20 2010 11:02 jamvng wrote:
I've had a lot of sucess with this build against protoss. But one protoss I faced, got Blink Stalkers right fromt he beginning. On Lost Temple, the susceptible cliff to Blink is so big and he harassed my main like crazy. Any advice?
Also, it doesn't really work for me all the time on all maps. On maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, it's fine, but on something like Blistering Sands, with a backdoor, I have a lot of trouble with the lack of mobility. So similar problem to the Blink Stalkers.
I'm only 600 point diamond so this technique might not work for higher skill levels, but building more ravens have helped me. I try to make the number of ravens proportionate to the number of stalkers.
Hey avilo, what do you think about this build in the new patch, are you still gonna use it or is it completely useless now?
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On August 31 2010 16:36 TheFinalWord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 11:02 jamvng wrote:
I've had a lot of sucess with this build against protoss. But one protoss I faced, got Blink Stalkers right fromt he beginning. On Lost Temple, the susceptible cliff to Blink is so big and he harassed my main like crazy. Any advice?
Also, it doesn't really work for me all the time on all maps. On maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, it's fine, but on something like Blistering Sands, with a backdoor, I have a lot of trouble with the lack of mobility. So similar problem to the Blink Stalkers. I'm only 600 point diamond so this technique might not work for higher skill levels, but building more ravens have helped me. I try to make the number of ravens proportionate to the number of stalkers. Hey avilo, what do you think about this build in the new patch, are you still gonna use it or is it completely useless now?
Yah I wanted to ask the same thing about the 1.1 patch. I personally think it's still viable. The only unit it affects is the zealot. You're making tons of hellions anyways it should be fine. Plus 35 dmg with splash is still tons, especially since zealots clump like crazy in this game.
Just look at BW (where the tank did 35 damage against zealots too, I think zealots had 10 more life too), vulture tank did fine against mass zealot. In SC2, we have smarter AI (no overkill), and better splash. Hellion has splash too. I would think the tank nerf doesn't affect this build too much.
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THANK YOU!!!!!!
Protoss's are starting to figure out how to destroy Bio+Ghosts. I've been looking for a way to mech. I used to standard a thor push vs toss as most were just spamming stalkers and thors do a great job vs stalkers, but it doesnt always work and is kinda an all in. I like this mech+ghost play. I will be trying this out for sure as I have been getting massacred by storms lately.
EDIT: About blink stalkers, they need sight to blink up so you can prevent that by building turrets. Sometimes I get the +1 range for turrets too, expecially if I plan on turtling.
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On September 01 2010 09:53 Techno wrote:
THANK YOU!!!!!!
Protoss's are starting to figure out how to destroy Bio+Ghosts. I've been looking for a way to mech. I used to standard a thor push vs toss as most were just spamming stalkers and thors do a great job vs stalkers, but it doesnt always work and is kinda an all in. I like this mech+ghost play. I will be trying this out for sure as I have been getting massacred by storms lately.
EDIT: About blink stalkers, they need sight to blink up so you can prevent that by building turrets. Sometimes I get the +1 range for turrets too, expecially if I plan on turtling.
About the Blink Stalkers, I've found that I don't like getting turrets everywhere until I have a 2nd base up and running, it cost too much to do that. If they rush Blink Stalkers, you can defend it find if you react fast (use marines and siege tanks in main, don't leave front undefended though) and not let them kill too many SCVs. Once you get your 3rd up and continue harassing, you're golden to win the game.
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Hey man. I really want to watch your replays but I keep getting the "unable to open replay" bullshit. I tried googling it to no avail. Any ideas?
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I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make.
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I find this a lot harder to play against than bio, just because of how difficult it is to actually handle the Terran's army in the field. Yes, there are mobility issues, but being able to harass with hellions and ravens can put a dent in P's superior base count, as well as how easily P can move around.
Most of my wins vs very mech heavy play has been in SC1 style (carriers are a useful talent and all that), and that's not the most reliable sort of transition.
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On September 01 2010 08:38 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 16:36 TheFinalWord wrote:On August 20 2010 11:02 jamvng wrote:
I've had a lot of sucess with this build against protoss. But one protoss I faced, got Blink Stalkers right fromt he beginning. On Lost Temple, the susceptible cliff to Blink is so big and he harassed my main like crazy. Any advice?
Also, it doesn't really work for me all the time on all maps. On maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, it's fine, but on something like Blistering Sands, with a backdoor, I have a lot of trouble with the lack of mobility. So similar problem to the Blink Stalkers. I'm only 600 point diamond so this technique might not work for higher skill levels, but building more ravens have helped me. I try to make the number of ravens proportionate to the number of stalkers. Hey avilo, what do you think about this build in the new patch, are you still gonna use it or is it completely useless now? Yah I wanted to ask the same thing about the 1.1 patch. I personally think it's still viable. The only unit it affects is the zealot. You're making tons of hellions anyways it should be fine. Plus 35 dmg with splash is still tons, especially since zealots clump like crazy in this game. Just look at BW (where the tank did 35 damage against zealots too, I think zealots had 10 more life too), vulture tank did fine against mass zealot. In SC2, we have smarter AI (no overkill), and better splash. Hellion has splash too. I would think the tank nerf doesn't affect this build too much.
Archons will take so many shots though, maybe that will counter this build now.
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On September 01 2010 12:38 TheFinalWord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 08:38 jamvng wrote:On August 31 2010 16:36 TheFinalWord wrote:On August 20 2010 11:02 jamvng wrote:
I've had a lot of sucess with this build against protoss. But one protoss I faced, got Blink Stalkers right fromt he beginning. On Lost Temple, the susceptible cliff to Blink is so big and he harassed my main like crazy. Any advice?
Also, it doesn't really work for me all the time on all maps. On maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, it's fine, but on something like Blistering Sands, with a backdoor, I have a lot of trouble with the lack of mobility. So similar problem to the Blink Stalkers. I'm only 600 point diamond so this technique might not work for higher skill levels, but building more ravens have helped me. I try to make the number of ravens proportionate to the number of stalkers. Hey avilo, what do you think about this build in the new patch, are you still gonna use it or is it completely useless now? Yah I wanted to ask the same thing about the 1.1 patch. I personally think it's still viable. The only unit it affects is the zealot. You're making tons of hellions anyways it should be fine. Plus 35 dmg with splash is still tons, especially since zealots clump like crazy in this game. Just look at BW (where the tank did 35 damage against zealots too, I think zealots had 10 more life too), vulture tank did fine against mass zealot. In SC2, we have smarter AI (no overkill), and better splash. Hellion has splash too. I would think the tank nerf doesn't affect this build too much. Archons will take so many shots though, maybe that will counter this build now.
It's hard to say until we have real testing, because, Archons are super gas intensive (cutting into Stalker/Immortal production), you would need a lot of archons to tank the # of tanks the Terran should have by the time you get Archons.
Plus the EMPs that Terran should have, 100 AOE dmg is a lot.
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On September 01 2010 11:46 Techno wrote:
Hey man. I really want to watch your replays but I keep getting the "unable to open replay" bullshit. I tried googling it to no avail. Any ideas?
It's cuz the replays were from the beta. Anyone have recent replays? The ones I have are pretty old, and some I played vs. pretty crappy players. (and I'm pretty lazy to put them up =P) Plus, I don't think I'm good enough for people to be learning from me. I got a lot to fix in my play.
But I do want to note that even with my crappy play, this playstyle works in 700 diamond.  I can only imagine with someone better, it would be fine even in 1000.
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I feel the tank nerf really affects
this strat, but it may still be viable if you adjust your play accordingly. Btw I feel blizzard should really change the cost and food supply of the tank back to what it was in sc1 since they're nerfing the damage by so much. Tanks cost 150/100/2 in sc1
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On September 01 2010 11:57 Floophead_III wrote:
I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make.
Glad you've come to your senses.
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On September 02 2010 14:39 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 11:57 Floophead_III wrote:
I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make. Glad you've come to your senses.
Well it was more a result of finding out that skymech is better. It's not so much that ghostmech is bad, it's just not the best solution. I still think a biomech transition from bio into a style more closely resembling ghostmech is extremely strong. I also think that ghostmech style openings into skymech or biomech transitions are very strong, especially because of the defensive strength of any mech build. It's very easy to take an expansion and hold it.
What concerns me the most is that terran really only appears to have 4 options, and 2 have been pretty much exhausted at this point as deadend strategies.
Pure bio doesn't work vs colossi or storm/immo/chargelot. It just reaches a point of ineffectiveness.
Pure ghostmech has too many issues with adaptivity and can't be aggressive enough.
Which leaves us with skymech and biomech. Right now the natural progression from 2/3 rax openings seems to be into biomech, and the natural progression from factory openings seems to be either biomech or skymech. With the emerging 2 base protoss style, I think we'll see a pretty dramatic shift in TvP metagame soon.
Of course I could be completely wrong too. =P
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I've been practising a build vs protoss pretty similar to the one you described. I have not yet actually made ghosts in the matchup yet, but maybe that is something to keep in mind around the time i take my third base.
supply->
refinery->
rax->
factory ->
rax tech lab ASAP (at this point you may need to make marine first to get probe out)->
(...wall in should be done by now on most maps)
swap fact to tech lab and make hellion + preignitor(rally inside your base so he thinks you're making a tank ->
rally second hellion outside your base, start a tank, finish marine (make them constantly) and temporarily lift rax to let the other hellion out. gogo do a runby hellion harass if possible
(preignitor should finish just as you start attacking his probes, it's pretty awesome timing on most maps, some p's block ramp so if he does just pull back a bit and moniter movement outside his base, you may or may not need to bunker up at this time)
get siege mode,
make a supply depot,
make a starport
make a command centre,
make engineering bay
(make 2 more hellions if the other ones got in and died)
make a dropship and drop hellions in his base, immediately add tech lab to the starport (you could even have the barracks make the tech lab for the starport if you want)
MAKE A BANSHEE THEN A RAVEN (if hes not doing void rays/warp prism, otherwise make a viking(s))
turn the command centre into an orbital, lift the rax down to the choke and put a bunker there, take both gases and put further supply depots in the choke (to block incoming forces) turret up as needed (to hold off observer + blink cuteness/phoenixes/warp prisms/void rays/dt's)
transfer scv's
throw down another factory and then like 4-5 barracks and start spamming marines(get combat shields and stim asap). add 2 more factories as you get gas(1 with tech lab, 1 with reactory, and get whatever ebay upgrade you want (+1 dmg or +1 turret/planetary range)
keep constant tank/hellion/marine production, throw down a third command center and start moving out with your raven.
get another starport with a reactor on it for vikings/medivac while the other one makes ravens/banshees
usually i just upgrade weapons for the marines and the tanks, since the only thing that can possibly mess me up is storm and that ignores armor (i believe). stimpacked marines usually rape immortals, tanks + marines rape stalkers, hellions rape zealots. collosus makes the protoss not have enough bulk to defend against me and the tanks just blow him apart (+ whos gonna keep making collosi vs a terran with ability to make vikings)
but yea you can have a lot of fun harassing and dropping and then doom-pushing while gobbling up all the expansions. fun times making nerds rage at their keyboards.
oh ya, make sensor towers and dont skimp on turrets when they will save your ass
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On September 02 2010 14:52 Floophead_III wrote:
Pure bio doesn't work vs colossi or storm/immo/chargelot. It just reaches a point of ineffectiveness.
Can someone tell MorroW/Bratok etc plz, I'm tired of them winning.
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On September 02 2010 14:52 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 14:39 link0 wrote:On September 01 2010 11:57 Floophead_III wrote:
I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make. Glad you've come to your senses. Well it was more a result of finding out that skymech is better. It's not so much that ghostmech is bad, it's just not the best solution. I still think a biomech transition from bio into a style more closely resembling ghostmech is extremely strong. I also think that ghostmech style openings into skymech or biomech transitions are very strong, especially because of the defensive strength of any mech build. It's very easy to take an expansion and hold it. What concerns me the most is that terran really only appears to have 4 options, and 2 have been pretty much exhausted at this point as deadend strategies. Pure bio doesn't work vs colossi or storm/immo/chargelot. It just reaches a point of ineffectiveness. Pure ghostmech has too many issues with adaptivity and can't be aggressive enough. Which leaves us with skymech and biomech. Right now the natural progression from 2/3 rax openings seems to be into biomech, and the natural progression from factory openings seems to be either biomech or skymech. With the emerging 2 base protoss style, I think we'll see a pretty dramatic shift in TvP metagame soon. Of course I could be completely wrong too. =P
You make it sound like terran doesn't have that many options...which I would probably say that Terran has the most variety in terms of unit compositions/strategies.
I wouldn't agree with bio and ghostmech being "unviable" either. I could see what you mean though if you meant biomech/skymech are more "effective" atm, but that doesn't mean that pure bio or pure mech aren't viable.
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On September 06 2010 05:12 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 14:52 Floophead_III wrote:On September 02 2010 14:39 link0 wrote:On September 01 2010 11:57 Floophead_III wrote:
I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make. Glad you've come to your senses. Well it was more a result of finding out that skymech is better. It's not so much that ghostmech is bad, it's just not the best solution. I still think a biomech transition from bio into a style more closely resembling ghostmech is extremely strong. I also think that ghostmech style openings into skymech or biomech transitions are very strong, especially because of the defensive strength of any mech build. It's very easy to take an expansion and hold it. What concerns me the most is that terran really only appears to have 4 options, and 2 have been pretty much exhausted at this point as deadend strategies. Pure bio doesn't work vs colossi or storm/immo/chargelot. It just reaches a point of ineffectiveness. Pure ghostmech has too many issues with adaptivity and can't be aggressive enough. Which leaves us with skymech and biomech. Right now the natural progression from 2/3 rax openings seems to be into biomech, and the natural progression from factory openings seems to be either biomech or skymech. With the emerging 2 base protoss style, I think we'll see a pretty dramatic shift in TvP metagame soon. Of course I could be completely wrong too. =P You make it sound like terran doesn't have that many options...which I would probably say that Terran has the most variety in terms of unit compositions/strategies. I wouldn't agree with bio and ghostmech being "unviable" either. I could see what you mean though if you meant biomech/skymech are more "effective" atm, but that doesn't mean that pure bio or pure mech aren't viable.
I only am talking about lategame, when protoss gets his tech out and has his 3rd up. My problems are not earlygame, nor in the 2 base vs 2 base metagame. However if you don't kill/cripple toss and the game is forced longer into a 3 base vs 3 base game, bio loses a lot of its strength, and mech's immobility starts to really hurt you. You're just not going to win direct confrontations with protoss with pure bio or be able to defend all your expansions and pressure with mech at that point.
I have had some good success with biomech, since hellions do a good job of sniping HTs, harassing expos, and killing zealots. Tanks do well to hold down key positions and in general just do a ton of damage. However you're not so immobile that if you get caught out of position you lose right there, and you have dropships for continued harass.
Skymech has done well for me but I still run into serious issues vs storm as the game goes longer. It's also so gas heavy and there is no mineral sink so you're forced into making marines (useless vs storm) or hellions (not terribly strong vs stalkers which are the bulk of the protoss army). There's just no synergy.
It's a bizarre matchup, and I really don't like the way it plays at the moment.
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EPT
