Avilo's Ghost Mech + (1/1/1) Raven opening- Guide for Terrans that wants to fist smash Protosses in the face
All right, I feel that I have fine tuned ghost mech to the point where a) it is viable itself as a standard tvp strategy b) you will be able to have a unit composition all game long that works vs all Protoss unit compositions c) the strategy is here for the long haul. yep, it has been effective since beta started and will continue to be d) i've used it against very good players, so it is not just me bullshitting out a theorycraft, but putting it into practice e) I can add +50 to my ego (^_^) and at the same time make all T stand a better chance vs the Protoss all-in invasion.
So, first off, what is ghost mech? Ghost mech is a play style specifically for Terran Vs Protoss where you will base your army composition on tanks, hellions, vikings, and ghosts. It is the closest style to SC1 TvP that you can play in SC2 (imo) so I think a lot of people will be interested in learning this.
The strategy is fun, effective, and is not looking to be going anywhere. I have used it TvP since I had a beta key, which was around patch 3...up until now. And back then ghosts costed more, and siege tanks took longer to build, so needless to say, the strat itself was buffed in a couple of patches.
It was especially strong pre-patch 10 because a lot of Protosses were still heavily using immortals, which become paper mache versus ghost mech due to EMP and siege tanks. The same strength is there currently in patch 10.
My reasoning for developing this is because I played Terran in Starcraft 1 so...why not play SC2 like SC1? and I do not like spamming marauders because it reminds me of how shallow CnC3/RA3 were. And anything that reminds me of 5000 scorpion tanks or 5000 infantry 1a moving into each other...just...makes...me...not have fun. I digress.
It seems a lot of people are afraid to go mech versus Protoss because of immortals high damage versus tanks as well as their shields but with ghostsin the mix, you really do not have to have those worries. Simply practice your EMPs and immortals are just another unit for your tanks to obliterate.
The Theory
The theory is you can utilize full mech play with tanks/hellions as your ground army and use ghosts to neutralize any templar and immortals that would normally destroy mech play. The ghosts are pretty much the key unit to this strategy, without them your mech is paper mache, with them, Protoss immortals are now paper mache once you EMP them.
Once you have mech rolling, you can essentially play it like you would TvP SC1 style, establishing a position, and leapfrogging forward as needed. But you also have the use of lots of hellions for probe harrassment. Essentially, you will have a strong main ground army with a lot of opportunity for hellion harrassment in the mid game, as well as using ghosts for nuclear missile harrass as well, which is usually very overlooked by a lot of T players.
Games will go into late game a lot if you are macroing good and are playing a good Protoss player, and the only weakness of ghost mech play is naturally void rays or carriers, but these are both easily countered in the late-game by reactored viking production, as well as turrets when you push.
Another weakness of this style of play is your mobility. Siege tanks are your bread and butter, so you need to have them positioned, only clumped in instances where you are sure you can get EMP's off on templar and immortals. There is a tricky balance of when you will just wanna siege up and go at it, and when you will want to more carefully position tanks. Anyone that played TvP SC1 will have no trouble with this at all.
I also want to point out a main difference in this style of play from bio marauder/MMM styles (besides mobility). With marauder bio or MMM, you are incredibly mobile, and it is quite easy to 1T your marauder army and go go go. With ghost mech, you will never be able to move across the map that fast unless your opponent lets you.
Also, marauder bio is based off of gathering a larger and larger marauder army, and continually adding to that marauder ball and doing damage to your opponent's army count directly, rather than directly his economy. With ghost mech, early and mid-game you will almost never directly be doing damage to your opponent's army count, but you will be doing damage to their economy directly by taking out probes.
So it is pretty interesting in itself how with marauders you are basically brute forceing TvP making your army big, while they are also making their army big. With ghost mech, you are slowly accumulating more tanks while hellion harrassing which indirectly keeps their army around the same size that your army is. So there is no need to worry that you will be massively outproduced, as long as you utilize hellion harrass very well.
And mathematically 4 marauders cost 400/100, 1 dropship and 3 hellions also costs 400/100, so the resource drain is about the same on both strategies. Those 4 marauders are sexy strong versus Protoss units, but that dropship with igniter hellions is just as damn strong versus those frantically running probes
(1/1/1) Raven Opening
This is where a lot of people have been having trouble conceptualizing even attempting ghost mech. They try to go straight into mech play with no solid unit base, and then they wonder why they just died to a 4 gate all-in. You really cannot move straight into ghost mech (usually), that is a downside to this strategy, as you cannot use it right away as you would be able to marauders.
There are a myriad of ways to open versus Protoss. In terms of opening builds, there's the aggressive reaper openings, marauder FE openings, banshee openings, etc. I am just going to cover the opening I have been using that is versatile and I found out works best for me for transitioning into this ghost mech strat.
Here is the build order: 10/11 supply depot (wall off) 12/19 barracks (wall off, leave room for add-on) 13/19 first vespene geyser 15/19 orbital command/marine (building the marine is safest, lets you kill scout probe, but fast geyser is good too). ~16-18/19 second vespene geyser (with no marine first, get it around 16, even 15, then marine after) ~18-19/19 supply depot (at wall) ~18/19 factory with first 100 gas, and reactor your barracks with next 50 gas
from here, immediately when your factory is finished tech lab it, build your starport, and then lift your factory and build another tech lab, using the original one for your starport to build a raven from.
you will constantly be building marines throughout this build order, as well as constant tanks once your factory is finished, and when you land your starport on your add-on, immediately build a raven.
the other supply depots in this build come around ~23/27 supply depot ~32-33/35 supply depot
when you hit 32 supply, you will be producing your raven and first tank, and you should have a group of marines from constantly building them.
after this point, you will want to continously build tanks from your factory, and either banshees or vikings from your starport. This is where the versatility of the build comes in.
The builds strength comes from how you scout and react. You can change the smallest things in this build to hard counter Protoss all-in builds. If your opponent goes for fast voidrays off of two stargates, which is semi-all-inish, you can immediately move your starport to your reactor add-on and pump vikings to hard counter it and then move out and kill the guy with your marine/tank/raven and the vikings will stomp his void rays.
There are also tweaks you can do to get a faster igniter upgrade and hellions + dropship to harrass if you are not being pressured. Also, if your opponent goes sentry/zealots/immortal, then all banshees from your starport work extremely well in adding to your unit composition, and as an added bonus you can harrass with your banshees + raven + PDD later on while using your main army else where.
The key to this build order is the point defense drone of the raven. You must be careful on when you decide to deploy it. Never get suckered into throwing out the PDD, and then just watching your opponent move back his stalkers. You only want to deploy the PDD when you force an engagement, are holding a position (which happens often with ghostmech), or are on defense.
As an added bonus, the Raven opening autowins versus proxy DT tech openings, and oh does it feel good to facestomp a DT techer.
If Protoss are doing an all-in with mass gates/robo or mass gates/stargate, you will want to play defense and continue to produce tanks, banshee or viking, and marines from your barracks, as well as getting up your second command center.
It is also important that you are never afraid to build bunkers. Bunkers in SC2 are free, so if you are unsure what your opponent is doing in a TvP, or if you were unable to scout, build a bunker at your wall. Do not lose a stupid game because you did not build a 100 mineral bunker. Do not get greedy, 100 minerals keeping you in the game is worth not losing to an all-in.
So that is the build order for TvP. You will end up with a barracks, a starport, a factory, and the add-ons are two tech labs and one reactor, so utilize them however you need to to counter what Protoss is doing. You can pressure with your initial marines/tanks/raven, or you can defend if they are being aggressive (most Protoss are so far), and then you expand behind this build and your push.
Do not get too greedy on your push, or you may get runover, lose vikings and leave tanks vulnerable to void rays, or just lose all your units and then be countered for a gg. Treat this like you would a FD build in SC1, probe at the Protoss, pressure and do damage if possible, but if there is no opening there, then retreat and save your tanks, that is crucial.
The marines are expendable of course, and in general in this build are used to simply ward off fast void rays so you can get out a viking while microing the marines against the first void ray if it comes.
Now, the transition.
Ghost mech
Once you are safe, have pressured or defended appropriately versus what the Protoss is doing, you will lift off your barracks, and build a factory on the reactor add-on. This allows for hellion production, and if you did not get igniter you will want to by that point in the game.
The barracks now will be utilized for building only ghosts, and that is it. Your set-up you want to aim for is 4 factories, two tech add-ons, and two reactor add-ons, 1 barracks with tech add-on, and 1 starport with reactor add-on (swapped every now and then with tech lab for a raven if needed).
After the opening, you will be in the mid-late game stages and this is where the hellion harrass comes in. You always, always will be getting dropships with this strategy due to the amount of hellions you can produce you can afford to harrass everywhere, as well as run some hellions around the map like vultures in SC1.
Kill as many probes as possible, and accumulate tanks from your factories. YOu want to weaken the Protosses economy, while accumluating tanks making your own army stronger. Essentially, you are killing his production, while accumluating tanks.
I mentioned that earlier, but I will again as it is so important with this strategy. You need to harrass. This is not marauder bio, you are not going to making your army engage the Protoss every second to weaken his unit count or kill him like that. If you play ghostmech like you play marauder bio, you will lose, and you will lose a lot from not being patient.
Be patient, look for openings to harrass, and establish your army. You will want constant ghost production from your barracks, and all of your ghosts on a seperate hotkey. Practice your EMPs, because without them you will not be able to break templars or immortals from Protoss.
Securing your third base is good with ghost mech because you can hold a position on the map and a lot of times the Protoss will feel like he needs to engage or "do something" to kill you, which is what you want. If they move in, EMP all of the immortals/templar, as many as you can, and micro to throw out the point defense drone, and use vikings to counter collosus, along with your tanks.
Hellions of course cover zealot heavy armies. It is important to keep tabs on if the Protoss is massing zealots/collosus, or has a huge stalker/immortal type of army. EIther way, you will want to EMP as best as you can, but versus collosus you will want to get a lot of vikings as well to kite them.
Late game is where the power of the ghost comes in, through nuclear missile harrass, which I feel right now is heavily overlooked in the game. Since you really are not directly attacking Protoss with this strategy, but slowly being patient and gathering an army, you can get x3 nuclear silos in the mid-late game and use 3 of your ghosts and a dropship to harrass.
Many times when you go ghost mech, due to the immobility of your tanks, Protoss may be 1-2 bases ahead of you. x3 nuclear missile harrass totally nullifies that advantage. Suddenly, you do not have to commit your army and spread thin across the map to take out an expansion (like you would have to many times in SC1 TvP).
Use ghosts to x3 nuke expansions, and use your main army to keep their army occupied. They cannot commit a ton of units to stop a measly three ghosts travelling around the map, if they do, you will roll them over with your army.
The x3 nuclear harrass is also not just used to nuke expansions, but also pylon clusters and their gateways in their main. If you can reach supply limit, and manage to nuclear missile harrass their gateways and pylons, you can win many, many games where you are on one supply limit with one live expansion and they may have 5k/5k in the bank but no way to reproduce their army due to being supply blocked/having no gateways from the nukes.
Suddenly you are in a winning position, even though the Protoss thought he was was Bill Gates for a little while.
Sensor Towers - are your best friend. I used to think these things sucked, and were useless and no good player would ever build them. I ate my words. Sensor towers are awesome in TvT, but they are just as good, especially with ghost mech in TvP. You might be pretty immobile at times with siege tanks, but when you have sensor towers sometimes spotting half the map and army movements for you, it is very easy to keep your army parallel to the Protosses without having to waste scans
BUILD THESE LATE GAME! Or whenever you are feeling like you do not know where Protosses army is, BUILD THEM!
So that is about it, that's the essential strategy. I do believe it is as viable as other Terran styles right now as long as you do not treat it or try to play it the same as you would mass marauders or airmech.
ah, and as for my own credentials, right now I'm #1 plat, played brood war for the last like 9-10 years (not many tournies tho), and reached B- high iccup but was usually inactive. I also have been active in many cnc games in the past few years as well, and went to WCG for CnC3.
oh, and here is one from May 6th, most recent, hour long game, but should help Terran that are having trouble vs void ray openings to get an idea of what to do:
Excellent guide, thank you for trying to explore some unhidden TvP strategies. I have couple questions though:
1. Why do you wall off? Initial immortal push can destroy walls fairly easily and you will be left with crippled production. I'd rather use bunkers and marines to block the ramp.
2. You didn't seem to mention Thor at all, even though this is mech+ghost build. Is there any room to put Thors into play?
What units do you propose the thors are more effective against than any other unit? (talking against protoss of course) I'm drawing a blank on this to be honest.
On May 06 2010 06:50 mrlie3 wrote: Excellent guide, thank you for trying to explore some unhidden TvP strategies. I have couple questions though:
1. Why do you wall off? Initial immortal push can destroy walls fairly easily and you will be left with crippled production. I'd rather use bunkers and marines to block the ramp.
2. You didn't seem to mention Thor at all, even though this is mech+ghost build. Is there any room to put Thors into play?
I suspect the reasoning is how bad thors get owned by immortals... Protoss spamminng immortal really ruin the cost effectiveness of the thor :<
EDIT: OP, you should try using mediafire instead of rapidshare for your files
I've been opening something like this recently after reading the "Unbeatable TvP Strategy?" thread. It's so, so much more fun than going mass marauders. I love the pushing/containing aspect of the tanks that gets so hard to stop after you have PDD, and hellion or banshee harass on top of that in the midgame makes the strategy very interesting.
On May 06 2010 06:50 mrlie3 wrote: Excellent guide, thank you for trying to explore some unhidden TvP strategies. I have couple questions though:
1. Why do you wall off? Initial immortal push can destroy walls fairly easily and you will be left with crippled production. I'd rather use bunkers and marines to block the ramp.
2. You didn't seem to mention Thor at all, even though this is mech+ghost build. Is there any room to put Thors into play?
I suspect the reasoning is how bad thors get owned by immortals... Protoss spamminng immortal really ruin the cost effectiveness of the thor :<
EDIT: OP, you should try using mediafire instead of rapidshare for your files
Thor gets owned by Zealots and HT's feedback, not by Immortals because they can cannon/stun Immortals in 1 shot. In fact Siege Tanks are extremely vulnerable to Immortals because they get 3(or4) shots by Immortals.
Was hoping you would write a guide about this, thanks - good stuff here. I've been wanting to use more tanks in tvp but never felt like I could reach the point where I could afford ghosts to go with them, and this gives me ideas on how I can get there.
I've been FEing into ghosts/mech for a while. and that works extremely well, thors are great vs immortals if you have roughly equal numbers (or you can use ghosts effectively) because of strike cannons, and therefore you can play standard mech vs toss as usual the same way, but the FE allows you to upgrade while pumping units.
Wow, thank you for taking the time to write this guide, this is really good. Great organization and clarity in explanations, I'll definitely be referring to this guide a lot.
Also, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one using sensor towers. They're so excellent for keeping tabs on your opponent but they're just such an underused building.
Your build order appears to be missing a supply depot.
Here is the build order: 10/11 supply depot (wall off) 12/19 barracks (wall off, leave room for add-on) 13/19 first vespene geyser 15/19 orbital command/marine (building the marine is safest, lets you kill scout probe, but fast geyser is good too). ~16-18/19 second vespene geyser (with no marine first, get it around 16, even 15, then marine after) ~18/19 factory with first 100 gas, and reactor your barracks with next 50 gas
from here, immediately when your factory is finished tech lab it, build your starport, and then lift your factory and build another tech lab, using the original one for your starport to build a raven from.
you will constantly be building marines throughout this build order, as well as constant tanks once your factory is finished, and when you land your starport on your add-on, immediately build a raven.
the other supply depots in this build come around ~23/27 supply depot ~32-33/35 supply depot
You need a supply depot somewhere in the 15-18 range to get to X/27.
Glad to see a new strategy like this coming up, would add some dynamic and character to TvP from all the other match ups. What would be the counter for this? I'd imagine just building 2-3 cannons in the expos would nullify the ghost harass?
I'm curious though, were people really having any success going marauder builds against top end P's? Marauder always seemed to me only viable against specific vulnerable P builds (FE?). Maybe it's just that P has figured out how to deal with marauder, because to me they seem like a terrible unit to bring into mid/late game.
With marauders, you deal no splash damage, and at best you do about a 1-1 trade with stalkers. But this means you also get stomped by any zeal mass, and absolutely have to be ahead of P in econ and unit count.
To me, ghostmech is the only army comp that makes sense in a moderately long game.
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Another point is that I think accumulating banshee will be a big part of the matchup too. Otherwise, you are in fact pretty immobile. But banshee means that part of your army can always be out there to pressure them. Ghosts can clear out mass cannons at expos so that banshee can crack them.
Here is the build order: 10/11 supply depot (wall off) 12/19 barracks (wall off, leave room for add-on) 13/19 first vespene geyser 15/19 orbital command/marine (building the marine is safest, lets you kill scout probe, but fast geyser is good too). ~16-18/19 second vespene geyser (with no marine first, get it around 16, even 15, then marine after) ~18/19 factory with first 100 gas, and reactor your barracks with next 50 gas
from here, immediately when your factory is finished tech lab it, build your starport, and then lift your factory and build another tech lab, using the original one for your starport to build a raven from.
you will constantly be building marines throughout this build order, as well as constant tanks once your factory is finished, and when you land your starport on your add-on, immediately build a raven.
the other supply depots in this build come around ~23/27 supply depot ~32-33/35 supply depot
You need a supply depot somewhere in the 15-18 range to get to X/27.
ah yes, there is a depot on ~18-19/19, thanks, I will edit.
On May 06 2010 06:50 mrlie3 wrote: Excellent guide, thank you for trying to explore some unhidden TvP strategies. I have couple questions though:
1. Why do you wall off? Initial immortal push can destroy walls fairly easily and you will be left with crippled production. I'd rather use bunkers and marines to block the ramp.
2. You didn't seem to mention Thor at all, even though this is mech+ghost build. Is there any room to put Thors into play?
Wall off to be safe, your wall will only get destroyed if you went AFK. As for Thors, they are too expensive to use with this strat, and vikings are your anti-air. You can of course use thors in TvP somehow, but that is not what this strategy entails
On May 06 2010 06:50 mrlie3 wrote: Excellent guide, thank you for trying to explore some unhidden TvP strategies. I have couple questions though:
1. Why do you wall off? Initial immortal push can destroy walls fairly easily and you will be left with crippled production. I'd rather use bunkers and marines to block the ramp.
2. You didn't seem to mention Thor at all, even though this is mech+ghost build. Is there any room to put Thors into play?
I suspect the reasoning is how bad thors get owned by immortals... Protoss spamminng immortal really ruin the cost effectiveness of the thor :<
EDIT: OP, you should try using mediafire instead of rapidshare for your files
Avilo, I retract any negative things I may have said, this is pretty awesome and well put together, I see a few weaknesses, but if the protoss does the all in 5 gate or something similar I don't really see one.
To the poster wondering how the marauder was effective, I think it was just a question of simplicity and the nerfs.
Massing marauders is easy, building an appropriate (and by this I mean perfectly optimal) protoss army to deal with it takes a little time. Also marauders have been *slightly* nerfed.
Anyways nice guide.very effective. Punishers poor play, but also a little tricky to get right all the time.
Wouldn't protoss cannons or stalkers prevent the helion harrass? Then the protoss could build enough void rays to either completely overpower your vikings or force you to build more rines to counter. Also, it seems that if the protoss could pick off your ghosts with air then the build becomes vulnerable to immortals again. It just seems that in general, if the protoss player went 3 gate void rays, this build would have a bunch of difficulties.
Good build, and similar to what I do. But I believe you can improve this by adding thors to your composition for a couple reasons.
1. Thor + medivac adds some much needed mobility to your army and allows you to pick off stray units, harass, and stop expansions.
2. Thors make much better defenders early on since they can be mass-scv repaired. This is important early on when you don't have enough of a critical mass of tanks to deter immortals and blink stalkers.
3. Thors are huge and take up a lot of space and prevent your tanks from being bum rushed by zealots and other units.
4. Thors stop phoenixes and voidrays, and with EMP can kill most gateway units in a hit. They can also 250 mm cannon colossus and immortals.
The only weakness thors have is against HT, but that is pretty typical of TvP matches turning into a ghost vs HT match.
Thors are definitely better than tanks, simply because they cover air, more mobile, and they do ridiculous damage to armored. Tanks, while awesome for defenses, would not be a good choice for your main army composition due to the fact that constant sieging and unsieging will give toss even more map control and leaves you very vulnerable to voidray/carrier play. While feedback does cut thor hp in half, it does not outright kill it, and if you are quick with the ghost, you can prevent it all together.
The critical weakness with this build IMO is the fact that its awesome if you can get there, but because it is such a late game focused strategy, you could potentially die to early/mid game aggression/all-ins. For example, with the raven opening, what would you do against a 3 gate 1 star voidray/chargelot rush? This seems incredibly vulnerable to that build, as well as your standard immortal push. Also, 2 star void rays are very strong against all the vikings and marines you can throw at it once the voidray charges up. On top of that, even if toss decides to just expand, I think getting your natural up and running would be very tough early on. Maybe a some sort of FE build might be a better set up for this.
On May 06 2010 12:17 DragonDefonce wrote: Thors are definitely better than tanks, simply because they cover air, more mobile, and they do ridiculous damage to armored. Tanks, while awesome for defenses, would not be a good choice for your main army composition due to the fact that constant sieging and unsieging will give toss even more map control and leaves you very vulnerable to voidray/carrier play. While feedback does cut thor hp in half, it does not outright kill it, and if you are quick with the ghost, you can prevent it all together.
The critical weakness with this build IMO is the fact that its awesome if you can get there, but because it is such a late game focused strategy, you could potentially die to early/mid game aggression/all-ins. For example, with the raven opening, what would you do against a 3 gate 1 star voidray/chargelot rush? This seems incredibly vulnerable to that build, as well as your standard immortal push. Also, 2 star void rays are very strong against all the vikings and marines you can throw at it once the voidray charges up. On top of that, even if toss decides to just expand, I think getting your natural up and running would be very tough early on. Maybe a some sort of FE build might be a better set up for this.
actually, the absolute strength of the opening is that you can survive any all-in quite easily.
On May 06 2010 12:17 DragonDefonce wrote: Thors are definitely better than tanks, simply because they cover air, more mobile, and they do ridiculous damage to armored. Tanks, while awesome for defenses, would not be a good choice for your main army composition due to the fact that constant sieging and unsieging will give toss even more map control and leaves you very vulnerable to voidray/carrier play. While feedback does cut thor hp in half, it does not outright kill it, and if you are quick with the ghost, you can prevent it all together.
The critical weakness with this build IMO is the fact that its awesome if you can get there, but because it is such a late game focused strategy, you could potentially die to early/mid game aggression/all-ins. For example, with the raven opening, what would you do against a 3 gate 1 star voidray/chargelot rush? This seems incredibly vulnerable to that build, as well as your standard immortal push. Also, 2 star void rays are very strong against all the vikings and marines you can throw at it once the voidray charges up. On top of that, even if toss decides to just expand, I think getting your natural up and running would be very tough early on. Maybe a some sort of FE build might be a better set up for this.
actually, the absolute strength of the opening is that you can survive any all-in quite easily.
This opening beats all ground-based allins. I don't know how to adapt to voidrays since I don't play TvP much these days but I'd like to see what people find regarding voidray play.
Watched the replays and i have to say, thats exactly how i want to play. It's pure pwnage. I dont know what these people are talking about, the build is too dynamic for any toss strat to work. You can adapt too quickly and its not easy for them to know where your going with your build. Quality replays, quality post!
First, I'd like to say thanks to Avilo for writing this guide, as well as providing the replays to show for it. Now, 2 Rax Marine/Ghost opening into a bunker-expo and transitioning into Raven/Tank/Banshee composition is also very powerful with EMP that early in the game. By the time it turns mid-game you practically are able to roll any Protoss unit composition as long as it isn't bigger than yours. If it is just as big you may want to just Banshee and Hellion harrass them while you macro up, and of course x3 Ghost Nuking expansions if it gets to that point.
As far as Protoss goes, (can't leave you guys out, haha); I'm guessing, what is going to be a standard counter to this Terran build, would be a Nony Phoenix opening as they move really fast. Initially, early on, they are able to scout this Avilo build as soon as the first Phoenix pops. With them, you can try sniping off Ravens before they meet your army and can put down their PDD. Furthermore, they also have the ability of disabling Tanks when Terrans push. However, in terms of army to army engagement with Marine/Ghosts, and Vikings thrown into the mix, EMPs would make Phoenixes drop like flys and negate their ability to lift units.
You have given me some great ideas here. Well written and makes me rethink about playing as a random player. I will have to try some of this. Thanks for reinvigorating my love for terran ^_^.
Avilo I have actually been practicing a build almost exactly like this, with great success. You have enlightened me with the nuke harass but I have found a possible play with this build as well. As soon as you have a banshee+raven, 3 tanks and siege mode is researching, push with about 4-5 SCV's and try to throw up 3+ bunkers, if he for some reason early expanded, this can really punish it and end the game right there, if he is on a map such as lost temple and decided not to expand, then bunker up his natural and rally banshee+tank+marine to it while constantly producing bunkers and make sure to throw down your expo. Contain him while your on 2 base an proceed to out macro and roll him. Every time I get the contain off with 5-6+++ bunkers I win, this is on non-backdoor maps of course, such as LT.
I do really like your build though, usually I do the same thing, I love the raven early for stopping obs, and Ghosts are a must because 5+ temps with energy are the bane to the terran army. The only problem I have ran into so far are watchful protosses who spread templars and have quite a few observers and proceed to feedback ghost/banshees/ravens at the beginning of battle.
Excellent post. I really appreciate the effort you have put into it. My immediate thought is "awesome idea", then I consider that you are basing your strat on the 3 most gas intensive units in the Terran arsenal: Raven, Tank and Ghost. How do you manange that gas cost on just 2 geysers and how do you spend all the excess minerals?
All in all I am looking forward to trying it, also with Thors instead of Tanks to see how that works.
But what if he opens voidrays? I'm still not convinced that his would fare well against a voidray opening :/
And scouting voidrays in time is very hard. Even if you scan the enemy base instead of MULE, he might have put it in a corner somewhere. And just because you see 2 gateways and no robo doesn't mean he put up a sneaky stargate somewhere - it may as well have been a sneaky robo.
Idk man, my fear of voidrays makes me stick to 1 rax marauder FE into 4 rax marine mass. Tanks own EMP'd protoss, though. Stalkers, Immortals, and even Colossi all seem to die so fast without their precious shields.
On May 06 2010 14:51 FishNChips wrote: warp prism + high templar = gg u
Ghost>HT. Warp prism may pose a little bit of a threat. I am sure Avilo came across that though and has an answer. If I come across it in the replays I'll post here.
On May 06 2010 14:50 vOddy wrote: But what if he opens voidrays? I'm still not convinced that his would fare well against a voidray opening :/
And scouting voidrays in time is very hard. Even if you scan the enemy base instead of MULE, he might have put it in a corner somewhere. And just because you see 2 gateways and no robo doesn't mean he put up a sneaky stargate somewhere - it may as well have been a sneaky robo.
Idk man, my fear of voidrays makes me stick to 1 rax marauder FE into 4 rax marine mass. Tanks own EMP'd protoss, though. Stalkers, Immortals, and even Colossi all seem to die so fast without their precious shields.
If you watch some of the replays...plenty of toss he faces open void rays..but because there are so many marines in his opening and it's so easy to transition into vikings, void rays openings are fine...
So far there is just no real threat to this build, other than you have to be pretty good (high gold, plat) to use this effectively. Whomever is saying 3 gate void isn't reading the thread before posting. The build is super versatile and can switch into counter anything. You just need to scout and have patience.
You can scout easily, you can answer anything the toss does, and most important, you have all the time in the world to 2nd and 3rd.
Avilo is right in saying, protoss feels like they need to do something or else they will fall behind. So they just suicide their army into the tanks and hold alt hoping to allah something turns out right.
This isn't sc1 :p.
Every unit is counted for... Proxy void ray is the only thing that can stop this but Avilo always swings around the map checking for stupid shit like this, as you should too!
Maaayyybe a mothership vortex, but ghost should be able to snipe that, and mothership is pretty ridiculous if you ask me :p or a dirtbag 4 gate all in, but busting a wall on a ramp is hard without immortal.
Watch the replays, everything has been thrown at this build.
really like this build, awesome transition from mech sc1 to sc2
hellions replace vulture drops and melt zealots (without mine drags), emps give the tanks back their firepower, vikings + turrets replace goliath
although no mines does make it more susceptible to flanks (than in sc1), but sensor towers help immensely with coordinating the push + easier access to nuke + PDD + upgrades = return of mech
toss would really just has to outplay to win, no autowin gimmicks - he has to harass more, be more mobile than you to shut down expansions, outmacro you and beat your push with what i imagine would be a very well positioned zealot-stalker-immortal army with HTs or colossi in a shuttle
Game vs paramore, same opening versus another void ray/3 gate opening, just switch ur starport to your reactor for one round of production and you are good to go.
On May 06 2010 17:52 avilo wrote: Game vs paramore, same opening versus another void ray/3 gate opening, just switch ur starport to your reactor for one round of production and you are good to go.
switching starport to reactor is actually what i did to a few protosses doing this build as well.. it is insanely gay..
EDIT: by gay i mean.. friggen hard to fight against... a good terran can push out before HTs have storm... at least HTs can feedback PDD but that still leaves the mass marines hard to deal with without storm..
instead of building a starport, you build a second rax and a ghost academy. Then move out with 4 tanks, 20 rines and 1 ghost. But then you don't have the raven ofcourse...
fast blinkstalkers or immortals can hurt you but is handable.
it's great these days cause it pretty much shuts down void rays.
i just had two games one with a voidray rush but i allrdy had 3 vikings out when he arrived cause i scoutet it. and one where he went for mass voidrays after an expansion, also scoutet right before the first VR popped and was able to pump enough vikings out of one reactor pot to handle that.
Marauder/infantry openings will be an option to kill FE toss, or some variant of greedy/risky builds.
But in general, we will see T play mech/ghost (4 fact) to push out to second and third base. At second and third base, T will look for timing if P is being greedy with expos/tech - so there might be some variation in builds here to make a timing push work.
In long game after 3rd base, T will continue to pump out of 2-3 starport and use banshee/ghost to harass and deny expansions. T will still slow push and expo creep with his ground forces. P will have option to challenge ground forces and trade army, or switch to more mobile army (inc phoenix) to stop T expo deny. T can respond with more air (vikings) and keep on pressure.
At some point, P will have to position army to deny harass, and this gives T windows to fast push to key locations and force ground fights. T will have better harass, but P will have mothership (ability to win a given fight). Ultimately, decision making in late game will decide the match.
Ghostmech is a great strategy, but saying that it forces the P to attack the terran is a wrong notion.
Just like in SC1, mech is immobile. The protoss should be taking over 3/4 of the map while the terran is massing. P should NEVER just try to bust a good position. Rather, it should try to exchange armies whenever the terran is out of position, and overwhelm the terran or gain mapcontrol/dominance through macro-power.
In one of the reps I watched so far, the protoss blindly attacked into a terran's sieged position. This is obviously suicide -. -. Armies should be exchanged, not donated.
In the long term, TvP may become imbalanced b/c ghostmech would dominate ground and vikings dominate air. Protoss no longer has recall or air superiority with carriers. IMO ghostmech is the most promising BO in terran strategy so far.
Ok, finally saw a rep that actually had this strategy in it.
At about 31:30 of your game against Water, you triple Nuke his last expansion. He surrounds the cloaked Ghosts, and kills all 3 before the pylon is built to give the photon cannons energy. How did he see your Ghosts? It's late here maybe I missed something?
When i use this strat, often Toss change to expand and create Colossus - Stalker blink - immortal and some sentry lol ... With blink all my siege tanks seems disable and hellion owned by colosuss, pluss Hellion would useless when no light armor in Toss combo o.O
May I did something wrong or how to counter to Toss who goes expand and create Colosssus - Stalker blink ? Keep harrasing ?
On May 06 2010 20:42 EximoSua2 wrote: You might wanna mention that in the rep pack, you don't build a fucking GHOST in a lot of the games.
On May 06 2010 21:15 EximoSua2 wrote: Ok, finally saw a rep that actually had this strategy in it.
At about 31:30 of your game against Water, you triple Nuke his last expansion. He surrounds the cloaked Ghosts, and kills all 3 before the pylon is built to give the photon cannons energy. How did he see your Ghosts? It's late here maybe I missed something?
The guide is for the raven opening too which a lot of people may have never seen before, though I know some have already. There are plenty of games in there with the transition into ghost mech though
as for the thing about seeing the ghosts, iirc, there was probably a cannon, that was not in range to shoot the ghosts, but could probably still have the ghosts in detection range is what I am thinking.
On May 06 2010 23:26 foxj wrote: When i use this strat, often Toss change to expand and create Colossus - Stalker blink - immortal and some sentry lol ... With blink all my siege tanks seems disable and hellion owned by colosuss, pluss Hellion would useless when no light armor in Toss combo o.O
May I did something wrong or how to counter to Toss who goes expand and create Colosssus - Stalker blink ? Keep harrasing ?
well, Protoss will not be able to FE in a response to this, though some builds Protoss can do can let them get an expo up quickly - usually I think those are void ray openings that let P get their natural up pretty fast due to the pressure on you.
as for collosus, this is a matter of scouting. Siege tanks themselves do good against collossus, but if you see them getting many collosus, then you need to get vikings with your army.
Whether that is just single queue on your tech labbed starport, or if you need to switch the starport to your reactor...that is just a decision you need to make in each game based on the situation.
The build and strategy are just that...a build order and a strategy. It is not gonna be a cure-all for everything, you have to play it smart, practice fundamentals like scouting, and react well to everything the Protoss does. That is heavily up to practice you put in, and experience with recognizing what Protoss is doing.
That means for instance, if Protoss goes with the phoenix build, you have lots of opportunities to neutralize the phoenix building vikings from your starport, and then counter-hellion dropping them, as they are going to be relatively weak on the ground. They will be even weaker if they went with a void ray opening and you shut it down cold. Go pressure them/contain and expand yourself.
as for stalkers with blink, they are usually never a problem as long as you are being careful and not exposing tanks for no reason. This strategy does call for a lot of patience in many situations in-game. An example of a situation like you describe would be, say, it is past the mid-game push you did and Protoss has a lot of stalkers with blink.
If you blindly move across the map with no SCV scout, no comsat scan, or anything in advance, and you end up walking into stalkers and siege at that moment, it's no doubt they will probably shred you to pieces if there are enough stalkers.
The Terran in that instance would have been treating this like it was marauder bio, which it is not. Every little movement matters when you move out with this, so you need to monitor opponent's troop positioning so you know when to siege.
if in that same situation, the Terran scouts ahead with an scv/hellion, or you comsatted the position of their stalkers, suddenly you can know to siege ahead of time and move slowly forward, and then instead of your tanks being shredded and blinked on, you see the first few stalkers get obliterated and he retreats. It makes all the difference.
On May 06 2010 20:15 dustdust wrote: Awesome guide, avilo. Can you please elaborate on when to get and when to use/not use siege mode?
You always want to keep track of your opponent's army as much as you can (this goes for any game you play of course). If you are going to be attacking you'll want to move towards your opponent as much as you can without needing to siege, but if you see their units begin to move on your position, siege up, and move forward a bit more slow.
And if you see a situation where you should run, by all means, run. There can be times when you thought you were good to go, and you realize suddenly you have a ratio of 3:1 tanks/hellions and the guy started to amass 4:1 zealot/stalker or something. That would be when you want to run unless you see you can siege up and win the fight.
Otherwise, when you want to move out, you do not wanna have your army sieged, but if you are defending an expansion, you will wanna be in siege mode.
In your game against water you only had a single factory producing tanks the entire game, as well as a single factory for hellions, while you kept producing banshees and marines. It was effective, yes, but I would not call this ghostmech - more like the everything build.
The most problematic thing for me when I've been doing these builds is this:
I can't do a midgame push very easily without mines. Protoss takes more bases than me. I slowly eat up the map and do a big lategame push only to see 10 carriers show up. I lose because I can't make enough vikings because you have to be economically even to beat carriers. (carriers are a little less than cost even vs vikings. EMP helps of course but vikings also suck vs anything not carriers/voidrays/coli.
My concern with ghostmech is 2-fold:
-Some of the maps right now are really bad for mech play. Anything with a backdoor especially sucks.
-There aren't any really effective timing pushes you can do that I've found. You're forced to play for lategame and have to hope that you can gobble up enough bases without getting overrun.
I think they should change thor AA to no longer be +light and just max to everything. Terran needs a more viable GtA option than marines cause marines suck past earlygame.
On May 07 2010 02:20 Floophead_III wrote: The most problematic thing for me when I've been doing these builds is this:
I can't do a midgame push very easily without mines. Protoss takes more bases than me. I slowly eat up the map and do a big lategame push only to see 10 carriers show up. I lose because I can't make enough vikings because you have to be economically even to beat carriers. (carriers are a little less than cost even vs vikings. EMP helps of course but vikings also suck vs anything not carriers/voidrays/coli.
My concern with ghostmech is 2-fold:
-Some of the maps right now are really bad for mech play. Anything with a backdoor especially sucks.
-There aren't any really effective timing pushes you can do that I've found. You're forced to play for lategame and have to hope that you can gobble up enough bases without getting overrun.
I think they should change thor AA to no longer be +light and just max to everything. Terran needs a more viable GtA option than marines cause marines suck past earlygame.
This is why I bio-ghost-mech. I think pure mech is terrible because of the reliance on hellions as a mineral sink. I find hellions to be just absolutely horrible. Besides requiring two sets of upgrades, I don't see why ghost mech would have any advantage over bio-ghost-mech.
I can be aggressive as soon as my army gets ghosts and tanks finishes upgrading.
There seems to be a window around the time the raven gets out and before 1st seige tank where the build is vulnerable to an all-in. I've been trying this build in 2's so maybe its not relevant to 1v1's.
The problem is, marines alone cannot hold a wall that has a supply depot in the composition, and once that supply depot is destroyed then you'll be overrun.
On May 07 2010 02:20 Floophead_III wrote: The most problematic thing for me when I've been doing these builds is this:
I can't do a midgame push very easily without mines. Protoss takes more bases than me. I slowly eat up the map and do a big lategame push only to see 10 carriers show up. I lose because I can't make enough vikings because you have to be economically even to beat carriers. (carriers are a little less than cost even vs vikings. EMP helps of course but vikings also suck vs anything not carriers/voidrays/coli.
My concern with ghostmech is 2-fold:
-Some of the maps right now are really bad for mech play. Anything with a backdoor especially sucks.
-There aren't any really effective timing pushes you can do that I've found. You're forced to play for lategame and have to hope that you can gobble up enough bases without getting overrun.
I think they should change thor AA to no longer be +light and just max to everything. Terran needs a more viable GtA option than marines cause marines suck past earlygame.
This is why I bio-ghost-mech. I think pure mech is terrible because of the reliance on hellions as a mineral sink. I find hellions to be just absolutely horrible. Besides requiring two sets of upgrades, I don't see why ghost mech would have any advantage over bio-ghost-mech.
I can be aggressive as soon as my army gets ghosts and tanks finishes upgrading.
Actually tbh marines are a far stupider mineral sink. Hellions can deal with chargelots far better than marines and marines don't give you any map control. Hellions provide scouting info, keep protoss on their toes, and actually benefit from upgrades with your tanks, unlike marines.
Also you can't quickly replace marines like you can hellions. Lose 20 hellions and 2 tanks in a push? Make hellions from all your factories.
I actually use Marines and Marauders as mineral sink, not just pure marines. With stim, they deal with most gateway units just fine as well as keep me relatively safe from voidrays.
I prefer harassing/scouting with reapers or thor drops rather than with hellions.
With hellions, my ghost/tanks have to deal with stalkers/immortals all by themselves, which I find to be insufficient. I will only grudgingly add some hellions in my army if the toss likes to go very heavy zealot/HT.
Oh, I don't upgrade my mech because I don't think the increased tank damage is very helpful. I only upgrade bio and air.
Actually tbh marines are a far stupider mineral sink. Hellions can deal with chargelots far better than marines and marines don't give you any map control. Hellions provide scouting info, keep protoss on their toes, and actually benefit from upgrades with your tanks, unlike marines.
Also you can't quickly replace marines like you can hellions. Lose 20 hellions and 2 tanks in a push? Make hellions from all your factories.
it takes more gas to get igniter..
it takes buildling time from tanks.. u are constantly buildling tanks...
buildling another factory would be again.. more gas...
notice his build is very gas heavy and can't afford it?
marines are a great mineral sink because they counter non-guardian shielded units as well as soft-counter voidrays from your base...
hellions are better solution for later game, but for the early push that comes to the toss base.. those rines are very scary...
well, Protoss will not be able to FE in a response to this, though some builds Protoss can do can let them get an expo up quickly - usually I think those are void ray openings that let P get their natural up pretty fast due to the pressure on you.
this is what i have most problems with. heavy voidray openings (3-4) deny any early aggression,force me to get reactored vikings to be able to expo in atleast reasonable time and just throw up my whole gameplan.
played this one game on lt or metalopolis crosspositions(not sure but doesnt matter much) where the P just straight rushed voidrays and i scouted with the scv at the point when the stargate was halfway done (he didnt even build a stalker before the stargate..).
he just expoed super early and delayd my cc flyover as much as possible with his voidrays and a proxy pylon to warp in a small groundforce and frome there on i could never catchup to him again. he was heavily ahead in food all game long and just expoed aggressively leaving me no opportunity to attack at any point after my first attack(when i had enough vikings and 1 ghost) was defended.
i really like the build and even tho i feel like you have to heavily outmicro the P its strong and fun to use. but still voidrays are my bane and make me rage harder then anything in starcraft ever before.
With hellions, my ghost/tanks have to deal with stalkers/immortals all by themselves, which I find to be insufficient. I will only grudgingly add some hellions in my army if the toss likes to go very heavy zealot/HT.
feel the same. hellions just dont seem to cut it. they all die after shooting 1-2 times and then your tanks are totally open to remaining chargelots,blink stalkers,or whatever going straight into em.
they just cant fullfill the role of vultures in a fight. they not only seem to be worse then vultures vs zeals (the oh so great aoe is next to useless) but also completly lack the strong shield dmg vultures had. if hellions had + dmg to shields and either had more hp or cost 75 instead of 100 or just be able to shoot/move like vultures i would gladly use them.
but right now i never feel like getting more then a few hellions to harrass or mix in vs light heavy armies is worth it cause of their pathetic dps(even against light its not exactly super great and vs evrything else they have the dps of a scv),clumsiness and low hp.
vs light with igniter hellions have very good DPS. Considering protoss is forced to make some zealots, as it's their only mineral outlet, hellions do have some merit. The problem I have with mech though is that the whole support doesn't synergize much with it. In BW mech had goliaths for AA, in sc2 mech has the thor which is only good against phoenix and muta. You are forced to go backup units with mech in the form of ghosts and vikings to deal with lots of stuff. When you do that i always wonder why I wouldnt bother to just have tanks as my backup to bio instead of bio&air as backup to mech. The hellion somehow doesn't seem worth it and the counters to bio, colossi and HT, are countered by the very same ghost and viking you are forced to make eventually with mech as well.
Wouldn't protoss cannons or stalkers prevent the helion harrass? Then the protoss could build enough void rays to either completely overpower your vikings or force you to build more rines to counter. Also, it seems that if the protoss could pick off your ghosts with air then the build becomes vulnerable to immortals again. It just seems that in general, if the protoss player went 3 gate void rays, this build would have a bunch of difficulties.
On May 07 2010 07:07 Mr.Eternity wrote: How would this build counter mass void ray if the protoss could contain you to 2 bases in the beginning while he expands all over the place...
if this build doesn't counter mass void ray what build does? in the beginning you have more marines and can get vikings faster then any other build.
if this doesn't counter void rays you are basically saying terran cant win vs void ray.
Actually tbh marines are a far stupider mineral sink. Hellions can deal with chargelots far better than marines and marines don't give you any map control. Hellions provide scouting info, keep protoss on their toes, and actually benefit from upgrades with your tanks, unlike marines.
Also you can't quickly replace marines like you can hellions. Lose 20 hellions and 2 tanks in a push? Make hellions from all your factories.
it takes more gas to get igniter..
it takes buildling time from tanks.. u are constantly buildling tanks...
buildling another factory would be again.. more gas...
notice his build is very gas heavy and can't afford it?
marines are a great mineral sink because they counter non-guardian shielded units as well as soft-counter voidrays from your base...
hellions are better solution for later game, but for the early push that comes to the toss base.. those rines are very scary...
I kindly disagree and know you are wrong. If you don't get hellions ignitor in the game, this build is bound to fall apart. Protoss will start pushing you vs you pushing him. Ignitor is essential man! Not only to take out zelots quicker, but the main idea is to probe harass, and ignitor jail rapes probes. With the patch 11 buff, you have slightly more time to do harass or bail if you get swarmed by too many zelots.
If you see voidrays you will pump marines and aa of course. But a lot of Protoss give up on voidrays after 3-4 of them die, they're super expensive.
The build is super gas heavy but you can afford ignitor. If you pump marines instead of hellions, watch yourself cry when all your tanks get targeted.
20-30 marines would be annihilated against a toss army, and maybe that's ok! After a quick exchange, you've lost 80% of his marines, but your tanks also took out 80% of his army. So you're dead even, right? WRONG! Good luck making 20-30 marines out of your one barracks by the time toss comes and poops all over your tanks.
4 refinery should be able to support constant tank, your upgrades, and air support. Ghosts will be pricey after that, but if you're smart you will not lose them without making them count. You need hellions for scouting too, which is so important with this build.
i think the key to beating this sc1 style of TVP play is to rush phoenixes and use the gravitron beam to keep the siege tank count low.
also massing phoenixes can defend against rogue hellions the safest way.
its important for protoss to maintain air superiority or else they will also lose if they attempt to turtle and macro up ahead at same time. i reckon playing Protoss like as if it was ZVT or PVZ in sc1 mode. void ray are a waste of time.
im theorycrafting that multiple warp prisms are built and scattered across the map ready to harass. loaded with dual immortals taking care of rogue hellions. chrono the forge upgrading ground weapons asap. high templar spam against thor + siege tank.
scatter a few pylons in battlefield with one photon cannon to forge siege mode and then siege transition should be window of opportunity to psi storm.
i reckon once the terran leaves main base, use warp prism and warp few zealots to crush tech labs addons and armory etc. storming a bunch of scvs is what protoss needs to do early on to have any advantage. use guerilla style tactics to punish immoble siege tanks.
hellions will be trying to run back to base to kill of zealots, use sentry force field to block ramp and destroy tech addons.
Well, thats nice strat, but there is a crazy counter to this - mass stalkers with blink @ your base + dropship with some zealots.. Ive been own3d by this lots of times on practice with my mates.
Heh, you really did manage to make a thread without it being locked. GJ, nice guide. Was playing this last night after our convo and I think im ready to start adding nuke harass in later game.
Above all, the skill you need to pull this build off is patience, then quick reflexive decision making.
I want to check my replays for people doing this build against me. I'm ~20 plat. Protoss in division 103 (I'm honestly pretty bad, but PvT is my strong point) and I think the build I typically do against Terran normally works well against this, barring some terrible mishap.
If anyone wants to try this against me I would love to see how my build responds to it.
PM me if you would like to see how the builds match up.
On May 07 2010 12:14 PeterDoe wrote: hi avilo, thx a lot for ur guide, i ve watched 15 of the reps only.
We have a new patch today, I think u may wana edit ur guide? I have no idea.
do u have any thoughts how could this patch affecting ur Ghost mech strat with raven opening?
Nothing really changed with the patch for this strategy. It was buffed again though slightly from the tank HP + hellion range. Same theory and execution are needed just like b4.
I like the raven transition a lot; reminds me of deflier rushing in BW. However, this build still seems really fragile in the beginning, which is what has been killing me whenever I attempt to tech.
How are you scouting and reacting to the protoss tech? I haven't been able to find a general build that allows me to safely tech and mass without worrying about what the toss is going. SC2's units are so specialized vs a certain type of unit that I find it impossible to find a real early game army that can hold it's ground vs void rays, stalkers, and immortals. 2rax, 3rax, 2port, and other mass-first builds do not have this problem because they invest so much money into covering all possibilities. I have to rely on meticulous scouting to create the correct army, and that is a huge pain in the butt because of proxies and sacrificing mules. The midgame is fine, but the early game is killer for any person that tries to fast tech.
What makes this BO any different from a normal tech build?
On May 07 2010 12:57 imBLIND wrote: What makes this BO any different from a normal tech build?
I've tried it a bit and at first it seemed rather weak due to the fast teching. In reality it is not, because you are using the entire tech tree. The Rax is producing continually, the Fact is producing continually from the time it is built and the same with the Starport. This means that you will have a lot of units despite the fact that you are teching. 1 Reactor + 2 Tech Labs give you the necessary flexibility to react to whatever is thrown at you.
I'm looking forward to seeing how this works in Patch 11. I think we can expect a lot more air play from Protoss, which needs to be dealt with, through at the same time it leaves the ground army that much weaker.
I was considering mixing in Thors for AA to keep the Phoenixes from lifting my Ghosts and sniping Ravens. We still need Vikings to counter Void Rays, but the Vikings will be vulnerable in the open against Phoenixes (Phoenix can always pick the fight), so they need somewhere safe to return to when striking at Void Rays i.e. Thors and Turrets IMO.
Holy crap. I just played a game vs my friend where he massed voidrays in the midgame along with a robo/gateway army. I saw them and threw up an armory for thors and starting making a handful of marines from my 1 rax. When we fought I think I had like 6 or so marines and a couple ghosts. Not only did my hellions/tanks beat his ground army - my tiny infantry force almost beat his voidrays. He had 1 leftover, and then I had 3 factories pumping thors so I was fine.
Lets just say that voidrays = not an issue. I never made a viking, or another rax. I was literally in shock that 8 voidrays could crumble that fast but just emp + a few marines apparently is actually enough. I definitely think early voidrays might be a bit of a nuisance, but it doesn't appear that they're very strong in big fights, which is quite surprising.
this build will be stronger in patch 11. Siege tanks now take 4 immortals hit to die, and instead of banshee you can do BC. Siege mode, Yamato immortals, enjoy =)
On May 07 2010 15:55 Floophead_III wrote: Holy crap. I just played a game vs my friend where he massed voidrays in the midgame along with a robo/gateway army. I saw them and threw up an armory for thors and starting making a handful of marines from my 1 rax. When we fought I think I had like 6 or so marines and a couple ghosts. Not only did my hellions/tanks beat his ground army - my tiny infantry force almost beat his voidrays. He had 1 leftover, and then I had 3 factories pumping thors so I was fine.
Lets just say that voidrays = not an issue. I never made a viking, or another rax. I was literally in shock that 8 voidrays could crumble that fast but just emp + a few marines apparently is actually enough. I definitely think early voidrays might be a bit of a nuisance, but it doesn't appear that they're very strong in big fights, which is quite surprising.
Replay please! I'd like to see how that works. Not that I doubt you or anything, but it would be great if we didn't have to fight P in the air with Vikings.
What's the idea with having a Raven instead of a Ghost? Could you elaborate on that? Raven doesn't seem to save you from storms or collosi or immortals while Ghost would? Also aren't most korean terrans rushing for Ghosts?
The point of the Raven is the PDD which allows the Terran to create an effect similar to Dark Swarm from BW. The Terran can win any given fight against Stalkers with a single cast of the PDD. What's more, if you get surprised by Phoenixes, the PDD actually blocks their shots as well, so you can sit the Raven and Banshees over the PDD while your Marines scare the Phoenixes off and you rush to get out Vikings (any kind of tech switch is extremely easy with this build due to the built in flexibility). With the PDD, the only two units the Protoss has that can attack the Banshees are Sentries and Void Rays. Neither of these units are optimal anti-air units especially with all the marines and tanks around.
When I first watched the replays, I too thought that the Raven was useless and could be skipped, but experience has shown me otherwise. There are only three real ways the Protoss can hold off the ~9 minute mark push. Mass Zealots/Sentries, HTs, or baiting the Terran to cast his PDD at an unimportant location. None of these methods will outright ruin the Terran, and the only result of stopping the push is turning the game into an extended macro game.
How the hell do you get gas for 2 facs pumping tanks, a rax pumping ghosts, and a starport pumping ravens? I saw nothing about expansion timing, but I'd have to imagine you need a 2nd base pretty early to start pumping.
The general timing for expansion is right as you start the push. Before the expansion and push, you don't have two Factories. You have one Factory, one Starport, and one Barracks (with two Tech Labs and one Reactor to switch around as necessary). Before your expansion, you're making tanks, Banshees, and Marines. You do not "pump" Ravens, but rather get one or two to support your army with Terran Dark Swarm (PDD). The build is very very light on your minerals. So much so in fact that while pumping all these units and depots, you can afford to use scans to see what you need to adapt to and still be able to expand after the second banshee/third tank (the push timing).
From my experience, you shoud push around the 10 min map with 1-2 tank, 1 banshee and 1 raven and a lots of marines. Hellions IMO seems to weak, and I would prefer having twice as many marines (esp. with 10+ health upgrade) instead of hellions. Only expeptions is perhaps if he went mass zealots, however that almost never happens. Ghosts should only be used as a counter to HT.
IMO this build is extremely overpowered. When I first started SC2 I tried MMM against protoss, but it worked terrible, and I lost all the time. However with this build I am like 20-4 against protoss. 1 time I lost to proxygate. Another time due to a lot of lag, and 2 other times I just made bad misclicks that costed me the game. I dont think protoss really can counter this build, and when ppl start using this instead of MMM blizzards is going to realize how esp. tanks are overpowered vs protoss and prob. give them a little nerf. I have absolute no idea why they gave them an health upgrade in the last patch.
On May 08 2010 04:51 Hider wrote: From my experience, you shoud push around the 10 min map with 1-2 tank, 1 banshee and 1 raven and a lots of marines. Hellions IMO seems to weak, and I would prefer having twice as many marines (esp. with 10+ health upgrade) instead of hellions. Only expeptions is perhaps if he went mass zealots, however that almost never happens. Ghosts should only be used as a counter to HT.
IMO this build is extremely overpowered. When I first started SC2 I tried MMM against protoss, but it worked terrible, and I lost all the time. However with this build I am like 20-4 against protoss. 1 time I lost to proxygate. Another time due to a lot of lag, and 2 other times I just made bad misclicks that costed me the game. I dont think protoss really can counter this build, and when ppl start using this instead of MMM blizzards is going to realize how esp. tanks are overpowered vs protoss and prob. give them a little nerf. I have absolute no idea why they gave them an health upgrade in the last patch.
The build is no where near overpowered, and it's far from autowin, just like 2gate robo from protoss, or even 4 gate/5gate are far from autowin now.
It is just a strong opening build, and a pretty strong follow up plan. Of course after the raven opening you do not have to go ghost mech, you can go back into mass barracks marauder, thor bio, airmech, or even try what gretorp is doing with marine mass + ghost, which you will have the raven in there for use too.
Just depends on the map and what you like doing I do not ghost mech every game, but I have done it quite a bit, so that is what the guide is for
as for Protoss having trouble with it, I do not think that is the case at highest level, it puts you on even footing, and if you are better or play better than your opponent than you can get an advantage, but that goes for all builds and strategies.
just think like years ago in SC1, do not know if you played, but remember when midas and all those Terrans were first doing the "FD openings?" Many Protoss literally died to just the opening because it was something completely and utterly new.
Same goes for SC2 beta, when people find new effective things some players are gonna die to them just from not having played against it before. First time I played versus nony's phoenix build, I died to it because it was the first time playing it.
Of course if you see some new strategy or strange thing your opponent is doing in-game, you do your best to adjust how you theoretically think you should in the game, but you are not always successful on the first try in countering something, so it takes a few more games against a strategy to feel comfortable versus it, and develop an efficient counter.
On May 08 2010 04:51 Hider wrote: From my experience, you shoud push around the 10 min map with 1-2 tank, 1 banshee and 1 raven and a lots of marines. Hellions IMO seems to weak, and I would prefer having twice as many marines (esp. with 10+ health upgrade) instead of hellions. Only expeptions is perhaps if he went mass zealots, however that almost never happens. Ghosts should only be used as a counter to HT.
IMO this build is extremely overpowered. When I first started SC2 I tried MMM against protoss, but it worked terrible, and I lost all the time. However with this build I am like 20-4 against protoss. 1 time I lost to proxygate. Another time due to a lot of lag, and 2 other times I just made bad misclicks that costed me the game. I dont think protoss really can counter this build, and when ppl start using this instead of MMM blizzards is going to realize how esp. tanks are overpowered vs protoss and prob. give them a little nerf. I have absolute no idea why they gave them an health upgrade in the last patch.
I haven't tried this but I would assume this would get obliterated by a zealot/sentry army with 2-3 stalkers?
On May 07 2010 08:46 whatthemate wrote: i think the key to beating this sc1 style of TVP play is to rush phoenixes and use the gravitron beam to keep the siege tank count low.
also massing phoenixes can defend against rogue hellions the safest way.
its important for protoss to maintain air superiority or else they will also lose if they attempt to turtle and macro up ahead at same time. i reckon playing Protoss like as if it was ZVT or PVZ in sc1 mode. void ray are a waste of time.
im theorycrafting that multiple warp prisms are built and scattered across the map ready to harass. loaded with dual immortals taking care of rogue hellions. chrono the forge upgrading ground weapons asap. high templar spam against thor + siege tank.
scatter a few pylons in battlefield with one photon cannon to forge siege mode and then siege transition should be window of opportunity to psi storm.
i reckon once the terran leaves main base, use warp prism and warp few zealots to crush tech labs addons and armory etc. storming a bunch of scvs is what protoss needs to do early on to have any advantage. use guerilla style tactics to punish immoble siege tanks.
hellions will be trying to run back to base to kill of zealots, use sentry force field to block ramp and destroy tech addons.
You can easily make vikings to counter that. How did you not think of that?? Swap starport lab with reactor and you're on your way. You'd probably only need two viking and the marines you already have to get rid of the phoenix. Phoenix poses no threat.
And if you have money to make multiple warp prisms all over the map while terran is either expanding or pushing your nat, good luck! You'll find yourself warping units into your own base to defend.
On May 07 2010 19:59 Markwerf wrote: ghosts can see DT by using EMP....
You must be really good to hit cloaked dts with emp.
Maybe Avilo should post some reps of him losing with this build and we can see why he lost. I didn't watch all of his rep pack so I don't know if he included any loses in there.
mmhh does anyone know if/which upgrade affects auto turret dmg and how high their attack priority is?
seems like armor upgraded turrets could be quite a nice meatshield vs zeal/sentry heavy combos . cause pdd only works against stalkers and HSM doesnt seem worth it for 125 energy.
This is an excellent post with comprehensive knowledge.
I watched several of the replays and I completely agree with avilo here that this is indeed a very good opening build that allows for flexible play, but I do not think it's unbeatable or over-powered. In many of the games the Toss players were giving a lot of leeway and/or reacted quite slowly (imho) to avilo's build.
As of right now I think a really good Toss player has a slight advantage over similarly skilled Terrans.
Finally got this strat to work...it makes for LONG but fun games. Will be doing a VOD of it, and give avilo credit for the build. (shoutcaster for sclegacy.com).
On May 08 2010 09:57 Markwerf wrote: I wonder how the opening works against a fast robo build. A immortal, sentry, zeal push seems troublesome for this build.
If you open siege with fast ghost + a couple marines (literally 1-3 is fine) you'll decimate an immortal push. It's all about good positioning and having a good EMP. You don't even need to get siege out (in fact it might be better to only siege 1 tank to pummel gateway units from far range.)
I've been FEing into ghosts/mech for a while. and that works extremely well, thors are great vs immortals if you have roughly equal numbers (or you can use ghosts effectively) because of strike cannons, and therefore you can play standard mech vs toss as usual the same way, but the FE allows you to upgrade while pumping units.
Um... if u have equal numbers of thors to immortals and are equal ur losing... cause cost/supply wise ur behind. If u meant something else correct please.
I love this build and have been using it to great success in copper bracket (lulz) - got me from high 50's to #1 in two days (how long does it take to get bumped up to bronze?).
Anyway, this seems pretty decent vs. zerg as well with exceptions being mass zerglings (don't see it often, but they pwn the tanks if they make enough) and mass roaches as well.
So I'd like to hear some good players advice on what changes to make to this opening (w/ the raven/banshee/marines/tank) to work better vs. popular zerg builds.
I've been playing a lot of fun practice games with ghostmech but I'm having a lot of issues taking 3rds and fighting chargelot/immo/voidray. It requires a fine balance of army between tanks/hellions/marines/ghosts/thors/and vikings. I don't know what to make when, when to push, how to hold a 3rd without getting harassed to death etc. I've been able to do ok until midgame but then my gameplan seems to fall apart. Have you experienced this combo/playstyle and what do you do vs it?
The biggest issue I got with tank/marine port/cc openers are that they really dont farewell against a robo expanding protoss. Both should get the expo up arround the same and toss can expand again when stim upgrades/shields aint done yet so you cant push vs it.
Ghost mech only works if the toss stays with a pure ground army. If he realizes you are going ghostmech, all the toss does is switch to 2 or 3 port void rays and run over everything. It requires a lot of investments to beat charged voidrays attacking your base. The balance between ghosts, tanks, hellions, vikings, thors, and anything else you want to throw in there is too delicate; it's too difficult to fend off pure air or pure ground with an army composed of 6 core units.
Tried it yesterday and I spread myself too thin b/c the toss switched between robo and stargate units and i couldn't adapt quick enough.
As a Protoss player, I've found a couple of Warp Prisms really helpful vs. Ghost Mech. They can protect Immortals and/or HTs from the initial bunch of EMPs, they can warp zealots into the tank line (only really helpful if the Terran is fairly tank heavy or over-extends his Hellions), they can let you re-enforce without needing pylons out in the open field, and, if you have Khaydrin, they can let you warp in HTs with storm after the Ghosts have used up their EMPs. And, unless the Terran has invested an absurd amount in Vikings or is willing to seriously delay his EMPs, he's not going to be able to pick off the prisms before they can do their job.
I usually use a build that's like your raven opening but it's somehow super hard countered by 3-4 gates mass (blink) stalkers rush. I've no idea how to counter this without maraudeurs. And when you see the stalkers coming again and again, it's already too late.
Do you have any idea about how to survive against this with 1 reactor rax & 1 fac ? I tought about adding a 2nd factory when I start to be overwhelmed but it seems to not be really reliable :/.
On May 10 2010 06:27 ganil wrote: I usually use a build that's like your raven opening but it's somehow super hard countered by 3-4 gates mass (blink) stalkers rush. I've no idea how to counter this without maraudeurs. And when you see the stalkers coming again and again, it's already too late.
Do you have any idea about how to survive against this with 1 reactor rax & 1 fac ? I tought about adding a 2nd factory when I start to be overwhelmed but it seems to not be really reliable :/.
that's what PDD is for! just cast one if youre in trouble, helps you to mass army up and get your expo.
im doing very well against fast voidrays with this opening, but it seems that 4 or 5 warpgate push is still quite strong. but i really need to play around with the opening a little bit to adjust it more against various strategies. i feel the raven is not that important right away, perhaps rather go siege upgrade to be more safe?
anyway my transition is kinda going biomech, with some marauders, marines and ghost but a lot of tanks and hellions and some ravens, vikings, medivacs for marauder drops. but i must say i havent really played any top protoss yet, although i beat some very good ones
I die before I can even get my raven. So forget casting ppd ^^. Stalker harass is very powerfull against this build, and bunkers delay you a lot. Maybe build 1 bunker full of rine should be "standard" against this but it delays the tech a lot.
thats weird though since tanks stomp stalkers. get a bunker at your choke then? that works for me
edit: i don't wall off with this opening but get a bunker at ramp or choke. but i feel that 100 minerals in the beggining is kinda significant so i will try to play with wallin now, without the bunker and see how it goes
If you don't wall, a single zealot will do a lot of damage against your 1 (maybe 2) marines. I tried it 2hrs ago :p. Tanks kill stalkers, but a tank can't compete 3-4v1, even if you try to repair it.
These mass stalkers rush are the only thing I fear with this opening.
I did this build in very very roughly, I had read the thread and I thought about trying something similar.
I have to say, this is the first time I really, really enjoyed a sc2 game, so i'll be trying this out more over the coming couple of days.
Oh and something that came in mind, (the P did this to me when he saw what I was doing) you should get 1 or 2 vikings anyway, and just constantly have them patrol around for any shuttles. Since a good player is gonna try to abuse your immobility. (this is just my opinion)
So overall, a lot of thanks for the guide, but one more question:
Maybe you could add in wich maps this build is better, or on wich maps it suffers, etc or show things on some maps that are special to them.
(for example on LT, doing a tank drop, taking a raven + scv + some of those leftover marines with you to snipe observers as example, (just making something up, but maybe you have developed some of these things on certain maps)
I just played a few games with Mesmerize where I did ghostmech play and fought against mixed armies of ground and air. I've started getting earlier ports and the 2nd game we played I even did some very powerful early drop play while expanding. I think that not only is this strategy super versatile and super strong, but it is the most complex and interesting style of play I've seen so far.
I think it's very important to turret heavily, make lots of marines from your rax when not making ghosts, scout constantly, and get a port up as soon as you know there's a stargate on the field. Thors also decimate phoenix, just a note.
wow, i somehow managed to miss this the first time around. Really well laid out build, good reasoning, and looks fun to play (and is fun to say ) definitely gonna be trying this out, thanks!
On May 06 2010 08:06 ArvickHero wrote: Glad to see a new strategy like this coming up, would add some dynamic and character to TvP from all the other match ups. What would be the counter for this? I'd imagine just building 2-3 cannons in the expos would nullify the ghost harass?
Excellent post... been following this build since the other post as well. Been winning with it almost non-stop... never had to transition to ghosts yet though, so this was a nice read.
Theorycrafting: As for cannons at expos, if nobody mentioned it yet, wouldn't the PDDrone block a couple of cannons for long enough to get the nukes off? I guess workers could attack the ghosts even if cloaked b/c of cannons, but it all depends on positioning. Probably a better counter (if you know nukes are coming) would be cannons and a dark templar. But then again, with a raven there, the ghosts could snipe the dark temp and continue to Nuke x 3 or what have you... but that gives time for probes to kill ghosts maybe. In which case you better have good scouting to see incoming dropships and then act accordingly.
All in all, sounds like nukes are a good option. Still surprised they are so inexpensive.
On May 06 2010 08:06 ArvickHero wrote: Glad to see a new strategy like this coming up, would add some dynamic and character to TvP from all the other match ups. What would be the counter for this? I'd imagine just building 2-3 cannons in the expos would nullify the ghost harass?
Excellent post... been following this build since the other post as well. Been winning with it almost non-stop... never had to transition to ghosts yet though, so this was a nice read.
Theorycrafting: As for cannons at expos, if nobody mentioned it yet, wouldn't the PDDrone block a couple of cannons for long enough to get the nukes off? I guess workers could attack the ghosts even if cloaked b/c of cannons, but it all depends on positioning. Probably a better counter (if you know nukes are coming) would be cannons and a dark templar. But then again, with a raven there, the ghosts could snipe the dark temp and continue to Nuke x 3 or what have you... but that gives time for probes to kill ghosts maybe. In which case you better have good scouting to see incoming dropships and then act accordingly.
All in all, sounds like nukes are a good option. Still surprised they are so inexpensive.
its still heavy investmend and need lots of attention. cant wait till the good people use nukes more. for the cost even stalling any mining for the time should bring you somewhat even.
. I think that not only is this strategy super versatile and super strong, but it is the most complex and interesting style of play I've seen so far.
agree. before this i pretty much stopped laddering cause of tvp. couldnt stand the guessing game and mindless spam/cheese games. but this build is super fun to use, opens up loads of options and is safeish against pretty much evrything.
and rolling over stalker heavy P play (i see a techlabbd starport! fast get mucho stalkers!) just never gets old :>
1500 plat here, I've been having great success with this strategy vs Protoss immortal/colossi, & void ray builds, but 4 gate just totally runs me over. I've eaten a 4 gate stalker + blink. He blinked right past my choke when I only had a handful of marines and 2 tanks up, My raven had just spawned. no PDD, total blowout in his favor. It also worked with them just using a mix of zealot/sentry/stalkers too, just powering through my wall in. I'm not quite sure how I should adjust my build if I see a 4 gate coming.
On May 13 2010 11:19 Tachion wrote: 1500 plat here, I've been having great success with this strategy vs Protoss immortal/colossi, & void ray builds, but 4 gate just totally runs me over. I've eaten a 4 gate stalker + blink. He blinked right past my choke when I only had a handful of marines and 2 tanks up, My raven had just spawned. no PDD, total blowout in his favor. It also worked with them just using a mix of zealot/sentry/stalkers too, just powering through my wall in. I'm not quite sure how I should adjust my build if I see a 4 gate coming.
I don't understand where this fast raven is supposed to help ever. It's completely useless in 90% of cases and wastes a TON of gas you need for tanks+siege+ghosts. Siege mode > 4 gate all day, especially with a PF at expo. You still need good positioning but remember he can't blink to anywhere he can't see, so if you have tanks in places he can't easily reach (ledge, behind your nat CC, etc) you'll find yourself getting lots of free hits and taking less in return.
The Raven helps a ton against any type of gateway push with a PDD, makes you feel super safe from DT openings and you need a quick Starport anyway I think, in case he makes a Stargate.
I'm not convinced that Raven first every time is the right move but it is very good. What I've been doing a lot is opening Rax -> Fact -> Tech Lab on Fact + Starport -> 1 Viking + Tanks and then adding a Lab on the Port and making a Raven while scouting with my Viking
I'm a complete newb to TL, and looking to get better so dont be pissed when i ask this question: "what does the 18/19 mean?" Does it mean you start on 18 and finish with 19 supply?
On May 13 2010 11:54 Nadagast wrote: The Raven helps a ton against any type of gateway push with a PDD, makes you feel super safe from DT openings and you need a quick Starport anyway I think, in case he makes a Stargate.
I'm not convinced that Raven first every time is the right move but it is very good. What I've been doing a lot is opening Rax -> Fact -> Tech Lab on Fact + Starport -> 1 Viking + Tanks and then adding a Lab on the Port and making a Raven while scouting with my Viking
Marines + turrets > voidray. Scan + turrets + EMP > DT. You hurt yourself so much vs 2-3 gate robo and 4-5 gate allins by getting a raven. 325 gas is not worth a PDD. I could get 2 tanks and almost siege too with that.
I think it's worth it (the fast raven) - but you have to use it correctly. If you waste the PDD then yes, it's a large liability and could cost you the game. You have to know the map and play smart with your tanks + your PDD and then it becomes the thing that wins you the game/battle.
although i am playing like shit today, i finally get to see someone make some sense of terran even tho i've been teching against toss since patch 8 haha but no one would listen (only cuz i didn't write a guide because i play more on reaction). thank u tho avilo -- well written guide.
On May 13 2010 11:54 Nadagast wrote: The Raven helps a ton against any type of gateway push with a PDD, makes you feel super safe from DT openings and you need a quick Starport anyway I think, in case he makes a Stargate.
I'm not convinced that Raven first every time is the right move but it is very good. What I've been doing a lot is opening Rax -> Fact -> Tech Lab on Fact + Starport -> 1 Viking + Tanks and then adding a Lab on the Port and making a Raven while scouting with my Viking
Marines + turrets > voidray. Scan + turrets + EMP > DT. You hurt yourself so much vs 2-3 gate robo and 4-5 gate allins by getting a raven. 325 gas is not worth a PDD. I could get 2 tanks and almost siege too with that.
I think you're undervaluing PDD. Used correctly it can win battles and even entire games. Of course, it can be countered by unit composition (mostly zealot/sentry), but for the most part it counters a majority of the protoss army.
I would value PDD above EMP vs most protoss compositions though. Plus, having starport tech early opens up dropships for hellion harass, banshees for DPS and harass, and vikings for obs sniping/countering colossi or phoenix.
I have made a VOD of me using this build, if you guys wanna check it out. It's not the absolute crispest game, and i make mistakes, but the jist of the build is there in action (with commentary!) If Avilo wants, feel free to embed in the OP.
yea this build is definitely the build to use against toss. i made SO many mistakes for my first time using this build and i still overpowered the protoss army. the PDD really just saves ur butt as eximo says.
a little tip for ur macro problem. instead of constantly producing scvs (which is what i do) -- u can start by making about 20 SCVS and then stop. when u decide to expand and throw down the CC, u can start SCV production again and by the time the CC finishes, u should have about 15 extra scvs (give or take a few) to transfer to ur expo. it's how i started for beginner's macro -- but eventually u want to move to 3-4 base army which u'll need to consistently make SCVS to effectively transfer SCVS to ur 3rd and 4th expos.
use ur scvs that u should be always making...make sensor towers to see where they are. it's covered on the first page. the sensor towers have insane range. when u are pushing -- simply just build a sensor tower like u would a turret. u don't need the turret because u have marines/raven.
this is by far the best build to use against toss yet. no more early dts or pushing with immortals.
well the protoss can't create new units LOL -- they have zealots, sentries, stalkers, immortals, collosus. i can only see the legit counter being collosus/immortal heavy build but that's asking for 3-4 bases and takes quite a while to transition to where as the marine/tank/raven push should be much much faster than getting those units. void rays maybe but u should have an EMP+marines by then and a few vikings -- not to mention that vikings kill off collosus also. Carriers are not completely out of the question, but u'll need a whole lot of time to do that and considering avilo mentioned that this build requires a lot of scouting -- shouldn't really be losing with this build because once u scout a carrier or starport being build u should know that he has a weak ground force. and if u do see a strong ground force, u should still be able to attack with the unit combo being presented because he won't have enough money to get that strong air anyway.
I haven't been able to try this yet but it looks promising. The one vulnerability I can imagine is that it would probably get more or less destroyed vs any P with a sizable amount of phoenixes in their army. It's a shame that tanks can be lifted while in siege mode. Fortunately heavy phoenix use doesn't seem very prevalent (at least yet) in this match up.
Looking forward to checking out some of the reps and trying this later for myself. As I've climbed up to the ~1400s in plat I haven't been having too much success just facerolling with marauders, and I agree that massing like that is boring anyway, so if this is truly as solid as it sounds I would love to make it my standard build
Wanted to chime in and say after using it 3 times today that I really enjoy the build. It feels good to execute it right and I think it will lead to exciting games when the Protoss properly responses (I think with air moreso than templars, at least in early game).
I didn't use your guide but I came darn close from eyeballing it off a replay. Didn't go into late game unfortunately but my opponents were only about Gold level and didn't look like they knew what to do. Pushing with tanks is the best
I just lost a very intense 200 supply vs 200 supply match because of this build. I blame this thread for the lose but also for the very entertaining game
This build is fine, but I really think people underestimate how good stacked Void Rays can be. I don't know why Toss players would just give up making Void Rays after the failed initial 'push/harass'. That'd just be a huge waste of time to pull out Void Rays to begin with. I watched a few replays and it just looks like the Terran turtles up hard. If the Terran player is going to play so patiently then the Toss player should just do the same. I think there are many places on the map that are inaccessible by ALL ground infantry where the numbers wouldn't matter because it'd be limited by terrain. Void Rays could just sit around and snipe out expansions. Viking a counter to Void Rays? Lol, not unless you out mass them by more than two folds when they reach around 7-12 just bunched up. Because of how slow you're going to have to move, if your marines get stormed it's gg since you have no air cover.
On May 19 2010 09:19 Tare wrote: This build is fine, but I really think people underestimate how good stacked Void Rays can be. I don't know why Toss players would just give up making Void Rays after the failed initial 'push/harass'. That'd just be a huge waste of time to pull out Void Rays to begin with. I watched a few replays and it just looks like the Terran turtles up hard. If the Terran player is going to play so patiently then the Toss player should just do the same. I think there are many places on the map that are inaccessible by ALL ground infantry where the numbers wouldn't matter because it'd be limited by terrain. Void Rays could just sit around and snipe out expansions. Viking a counter to Void Rays? Lol, not unless you out mass them by more than two folds when they reach around 7-12 just bunched up. Because of how slow you're going to have to move, if your marines get stormed it's gg since you have no air cover.
from my tests, with those numbers vikings have a more significant edge because they can one shot each void ray per volley. Haven't tested obscenely large numbers yet. Also, at some point, if they are going MASS void rays, thors actually work (upgraded with vehicle weapons of course). They do piddly damage, but having 4 dealing out 24-36 damage a shot AoE works well later on in the game. Also, if they don't give up making void rays early on, you can easily walk right into his base and just own him right there. He needs a large ground army to deal with tank/marine, and he's not going to outproduce your viking count.
Vikings are a very cost-effective counter to void rays, but you need to start making them in time, and need to have the same number of bases as the Protoss player. I lost yesterday because I did not scout AT ALL, started amassing tanks, happily expanded, and got "sup G"d by 6 void rays and a mommaship with only 12 marines and 2 ghosts to defend.
Had I scanned his stargate or done a banshee harass / flyover, I could have pushed with 8 vikings, the raven and the marines/ghosts (instead of making more than 2 tanks) and ended the game right there.
Obviously if you have no anti air the toss will win, but with scans and map control that you have in late game, you can easily scout mass air in time. And void rays are not that great against turrets.
I think that alot of you are also overestimating void rays, they're good no doubt, but vikings are a very effective counter.... as are turrets and marines. Also, while the toss is massing void rays, they'll have a weak ground force, which leaves them vulnerable to ground pushes. Set up your tanks and entrench yourself at a key choke point and start pushing. It takes time to amass a void ray army, and w/ scans you really have no excuse for not knowing about it beforehand.
I really like this strategy, but I just got owned hardcore by a fast stalker push. He attacked with 2 stalkers right off the bat and attacked the supply depot at my wall. Even building marines as quickly as possible, I only had 5 (maybe 7) when they hit, and the stalkers easily out-microed them. He had 4 stalkers at my door before the tank came, and 2 more stalkers showed up shortly after.
Is it recommended to place a bunker at your choke ASAP?
On May 19 2010 09:19 Tare wrote: This build is fine, but I really think people underestimate how good stacked Void Rays can be. I don't know why Toss players would just give up making Void Rays after the failed initial 'push/harass'. That'd just be a huge waste of time to pull out Void Rays to begin with. I watched a few replays and it just looks like the Terran turtles up hard. If the Terran player is going to play so patiently then the Toss player should just do the same. I think there are many places on the map that are inaccessible by ALL ground infantry where the numbers wouldn't matter because it'd be limited by terrain. Void Rays could just sit around and snipe out expansions. Viking a counter to Void Rays? Lol, not unless you out mass them by more than two folds when they reach around 7-12 just bunched up. Because of how slow you're going to have to move, if your marines get stormed it's gg since you have no air cover.
You don't know what you're talking about here. Void rays lose to vikings, always. Even if you manage to charge your void rays up before the battle, the vikings will still win as long as the resource count between armies is even. Vikings build quicker, and you can build two at a time. Mass void ray will work only if you were able to hide it, and the opponent didn't know it was coming, in which case they wouldn't be massing their own viking force. However in a situation like that, the Terran would be incompetent. Vikings lose very slightly to carrier, and lose slightly to phoenixes. But considering phoenixes can't do much against the remaining ground force, and that vikings are easily rebuilt to deal with remaining carriers, no Protoss air is an option against a competent Terran user.
On July 06 2010 00:24 daniel_58t wrote: are there any recent replays of ghostmech in patch 15? would like to see how other terrans cope with the tank nerf...
The tank nerf is largely immaterial to the effectiveness of this build. It makes a small difference when the terran has smaller numbers of tanks, but as the tank force grows, it's not really noticeable.
On July 06 2010 00:24 daniel_58t wrote: are there any recent replays of ghostmech in patch 15? would like to see how other terrans cope with the tank nerf...
The tank nerf is largely immaterial to the effectiveness of this build. It makes a small difference when the terran has smaller numbers of tanks, but as the tank force grows, it's not really noticeable.
The tank nerf means it takes 4 shots to kill stalkers and zealots and 5 shots to kill emp'd immortals. What it really means is that upgrades play a more significant role, and earlygame tanks are not quite as powerful so you need to be even more careful about positioning.
I don't think TvP was particularly imbalanced before the nerf. I actually felt that some maps were much harder for T, but some were easier. I don't think the nerf changes much in that regard. TvP is a lot of fun from both sides and I believe it to be the most balanced non-mirror at the moment.
On a side note, I don't think ghostmech play has changed significantly because Protoss players still don't know what they're doing. When protoss play becomes more refined, logical timings and understandings of the metagame will emerge.
So... if I go for zealot/stalker with boosted charge and then blink, catch your marine tank force in the open and butcher it with a zealot surround and then just blink into your base,
You could just NOT move out and go total defense, but I'll just grab the gold expo.
And, of course, with blinking stalkers I can really just bypass most of your tank defenses.
I'm not saying it's a bad strat but I really don't think it's going to work well against a toss player like myself who uses mobility(and watchtowers) to counter tanks.
On July 06 2010 03:12 sikyon wrote: So... if I go for zealot/stalker with boosted charge and then blink, catch your marine tank force in the open and butcher it with a zealot surround and then just blink into your base,
You could just NOT move out and go total defense, but I'll just grab the gold expo.
And, of course, with blinking stalkers I can really just bypass most of your tank defenses.
I'm not saying it's a bad strat but I really don't think it's going to work well against a toss player like myself who uses mobility(and watchtowers) to counter tanks.
I believe over 50% of the OPs strat deals with destroying the protoss's means of production. I have a build that is different from this one which I prefer, however, having reviewed many of the replays from the OP and his discussions of the strategy I can confidently say he has beat people who had economic advantages on him multiple times. If you have 10k minerals but suddenly have no gateways or pylons, your advantage is quite irrelevant.
On July 06 2010 03:12 sikyon wrote: So... if I go for zealot/stalker with boosted charge and then blink, catch your marine tank force in the open and butcher it with a zealot surround and then just blink into your base,
You could just NOT move out and go total defense, but I'll just grab the gold expo.
And, of course, with blinking stalkers I can really just bypass most of your tank defenses.
I'm not saying it's a bad strat but I really don't think it's going to work well against a toss player like myself who uses mobility(and watchtowers) to counter tanks.
So the OP has used this build hundreds of times, and many many times against top US protoss players, and has spent 10 pages talking out every scenario, yet you think it wont do anything to you? You gotta be kidding...
If you read the post, there are dozens of questions about blinking stalkers, and how to handle it. Also, no one is going to blindly run into your zealot/stalker force out in the open and allow you to butcher it. If that happened, then the player is terrible and is not even doing the build right to begin with.
Lastly, the gold expo is not that much better than any other expansions on the map, unless you are terran and have the ability to use MULES. 6 patches each mining 8 is 48 minerals per return. Whereas having 8 workers each mine 5, is 40 per return. It adds up over time, but in general its not a *huge* advantage.
He is right about one thing though - the most dangerous thing for a terran player is a fast 3rd from protoss, forcing either a push or a fast 3rd which can stretch you very thin. The correct timing/composition to take the 3rd as protoss is something I think nobody understands yet. In time we'll see something closer to what 2 gate robo double expo in BW was, and variations on that.
Didn't really care to watch the replays posted but just looking at the overview seems extremely flawed.
Going to have the Observer out after the first immortal for vision.
At that point front is either going to be breached, or I'm going to stop production and get my 3rd.
I personally expect the 1:1:1 mass rine as it was more or less 80%+ of what the terrans were running before beta downtime, so I have my council built.
If you didn't get stomped by the stalker + immortal + couple zealots then the expansion is free;
Also I wont bother with charge once I see the lack of marines, and more importantly hellions as your non-gass dump units. Natural and dark shrine will go down without problem. If you siege turtle and take natural then a 3rd will be grabbed by the toss asap.
While this is a nice strat on paper any player with barely semi-decent scouting should be able to stop this. Relying solely on the raven as a crutch for pdd and detection wont do much against stalkers that will have blink, and the warp prism to harass and drops.
Just too gas heavy and without fear of the bio/infantry more or less forcing storm/collossi to compete just don't think it will fly.
On May 19 2010 09:19 Tare wrote: This build is fine, but I really think people underestimate how good stacked Void Rays can be. I don't know why Toss players would just give up making Void Rays after the failed initial 'push/harass'. That'd just be a huge waste of time to pull out Void Rays to begin with. I watched a few replays and it just looks like the Terran turtles up hard. If the Terran player is going to play so patiently then the Toss player should just do the same. I think there are many places on the map that are inaccessible by ALL ground infantry where the numbers wouldn't matter because it'd be limited by terrain. Void Rays could just sit around and snipe out expansions. Viking a counter to Void Rays? Lol, not unless you out mass them by more than two folds when they reach around 7-12 just bunched up. Because of how slow you're going to have to move, if your marines get stormed it's gg since you have no air cover.
You don't know what you're talking about here. Void rays lose to vikings, always. Even if you manage to charge your void rays up before the battle, the vikings will still win as long as the resource count between armies is even. Vikings build quicker, and you can build two at a time. Mass void ray will work only if you were able to hide it, and the opponent didn't know it was coming, in which case they wouldn't be massing their own viking force. However in a situation like that, the Terran would be incompetent. Vikings lose very slightly to carrier, and lose slightly to phoenixes. But considering phoenixes can't do much against the remaining ground force, and that vikings are easily rebuilt to deal with remaining carriers, no Protoss air is an option against a competent Terran user.
Vikings actually win vs carriers and phoenixes, just not in 3v1/1v1. In a 3vs1 the carrier barely wins, because he doesn't lose any dps as it's being damaged, while if there are several carriers losing one will decrease their dps during combat. In a 6vs2 or a larger fight the vikings will win. In 1vs1 a phoenix beats a viking, but the phoenix costs more and the range advantage pays off more in larger battles. In a 7vs6 or 14vs12(equal cost if 1 gas = 2 minerals) fight, the vikings will win.
On July 06 2010 04:05 Agh wrote: Didn't really care to watch the replays posted but just looking at the overview seems extremely flawed.
Going to have the Observer out after the first immortal for vision.
At that point front is either going to be breached, or I'm going to stop production and get my 3rd.
I personally expect the 1:1:1 mass rine as it was more or less 80%+ of what the terrans were running before beta downtime, so I have my council built.
If you didn't get stomped by the stalker + immortal + couple zealots then the expansion is free;
Also I wont bother with charge once I see the lack of marines, and more importantly hellions as your non-gass dump units. Natural and dark shrine will go down without problem. If you siege turtle and take natural then a 3rd will be grabbed by the toss asap.
While this is a nice strat on paper any player with barely semi-decent scouting should be able to stop this. Relying solely on the raven as a crutch for pdd and detection wont do much against stalkers that will have blink, and the warp prism to harass and drops.
Just too gas heavy and without fear of the bio/infantry more or less forcing storm/collossi to compete just don't think it will fly.
I can't stand it when people say "this strategy is flawed it can never work" when people like Avilo and myself have been using it since day 1 with great success. It's not flawed at all, the metagame for it is largely unexplored, and while you can theorycraft all day why its bad it works in game and that's all that matters.
If you insist that ghostmech is ineffective then I'll play you once beta is back up to explore your concerns about it.
On July 06 2010 04:05 Agh wrote: Didn't really care to watch the replays posted but just looking at the overview seems extremely flawed.
Going to have the Observer out after the first immortal for vision.
At that point front is either going to be breached, or I'm going to stop production and get my 3rd.
I personally expect the 1:1:1 mass rine as it was more or less 80%+ of what the terrans were running before beta downtime, so I have my council built.
If you didn't get stomped by the stalker + immortal + couple zealots then the expansion is free;
Also I wont bother with charge once I see the lack of marines, and more importantly hellions as your non-gass dump units. Natural and dark shrine will go down without problem. If you siege turtle and take natural then a 3rd will be grabbed by the toss asap.
While this is a nice strat on paper any player with barely semi-decent scouting should be able to stop this. Relying solely on the raven as a crutch for pdd and detection wont do much against stalkers that will have blink, and the warp prism to harass and drops.
Just too gas heavy and without fear of the bio/infantry more or less forcing storm/collossi to compete just don't think it will fly.
Well everything can look nice on paper and perform horribly in game. For example, your strategy you posted to stop this ghost mech looks good, but you really need to test it in game as well. But of course beta is down and you can't really test it
On July 06 2010 04:05 Agh wrote: Didn't really care to watch the replays posted but just looking at the overview seems extremely flawed.
Going to have the Observer out after the first immortal for vision.
At that point front is either going to be breached, or I'm going to stop production and get my 3rd.
I personally expect the 1:1:1 mass rine as it was more or less 80%+ of what the terrans were running before beta downtime, so I have my council built.
If you didn't get stomped by the stalker + immortal + couple zealots then the expansion is free;
Also I wont bother with charge once I see the lack of marines, and more importantly hellions as your non-gass dump units. Natural and dark shrine will go down without problem. If you siege turtle and take natural then a 3rd will be grabbed by the toss asap.
While this is a nice strat on paper any player with barely semi-decent scouting should be able to stop this. Relying solely on the raven as a crutch for pdd and detection wont do much against stalkers that will have blink, and the warp prism to harass and drops.
Just too gas heavy and without fear of the bio/infantry more or less forcing storm/collossi to compete just don't think it will fly.
I can't stand it when people say "this strategy is flawed it can never work" when people like Avilo and myself have been using it since day 1 with great success. It's not flawed at all, the metagame for it is largely unexplored, and while you can theorycraft all day why its bad it works in game and that's all that matters.
If you insist that ghostmech is ineffective then I'll play you once beta is back up to explore your concerns about it.
I agree with your statement. The ghost mech opening has been used on protoss players that are much better than Agh, with replays posted to back it up (that he didnt watch ofc) yet magically this build wouldnt stand a chance against him, or any other player that can "scout". Typical response from someone who has no idea what he is actually debating.
Has this build been used in any tournaments by Terrans other than avilo? It'd be cool to see some different styles and more Protoss responses to this mech play.
On July 06 2010 07:39 Shron wrote: Has this build been used in any tournaments by Terrans other than avilo? It'd be cool to see some different styles and more Protoss responses to this mech play.
I have used this in tournaments but I only played a handful of them. I never really was good enough at all 3 matchups to make it far in tournaments, so I think I only played maybe a half dozen matches with ghostmech. What you'd be looking for is replays, and I don't know how many there are out there. I also reformatted so I don't have mine anymore (not that they're current for the recent patches anyways).
It's really not a good idea to use older games as a basis for builds, just overarching strategy. I'd suggest playing against an AI with these mech builds and see what gives you the most trouble. It's good to view things from both viewpoints.
I only read the overview of the OP however I would like to know how you deal with immortals that are in warp prisms (asuming they avoide the EMP and then get dropped on your tanks) as your ghosts are the only things that can shoot up. If I missed somthing then forgive me but 10 pages is too much to read.
Vikings will have phoenix to shoot at or void rays.
On July 06 2010 09:52 InTriX wrote: I only read the overview of the OP however I would like to know how you deal with immortals that are in warp prisms (asuming they avoide the EMP and then get dropped on your tanks) as your ghosts are the only things that can shoot up. If I missed somthing then forgive me but 10 pages is too much to read.
Vikings will have phoenix to shoot at or void rays.
Immortal drops are strongest earlygame (like reavers). You always have 4+ marines to help kill prisms. You also EMP the immortals when they drop down. Basically a combo of well positioned turrets and marines and a ghost will serve as good AA. They work well vs voidrays too to give you time to get vikings out.
On July 06 2010 09:52 InTriX wrote: I only read the overview of the OP however I would like to know how you deal with immortals that are in warp prisms (asuming they avoide the EMP and then get dropped on your tanks) as your ghosts are the only things that can shoot up. If I missed somthing then forgive me but 10 pages is too much to read.
Vikings will have phoenix to shoot at or void rays.
Immortal drops are strongest earlygame (like reavers). You always have 4+ marines to help kill prisms. You also EMP the immortals when they drop down. Basically a combo of well positioned turrets and marines and a ghost will serve as good AA. They work well vs voidrays too to give you time to get vikings out.
I don't mean as a drop, I mean as your army. Similar to how zerg break mech they drop from overlords all over the siege tanks, while attacking with the other half of their army. Protoss could engage the front with charge lots to take the emps move in sentries with void rays and then prisms drop immortals on the tanks.
Immortal drops are definitely effective even in midgame pushes. The problem is if there's any vikings you're in trouble. Also you would never drop immortals vs unsieged tanks so if he just doesn't siege up and builds turrets along the push path you're kinda screwed. That kind of drop punishes a siege contain the same way zealot bombs punish it in BW. However there's no mines to drag in SC2.
The reason zerg can do it is because they have 20 shuttles lying around so they can mass drop easily. You'd have to invest 200 minerals + robo build time for the same effect. Would you rather have 5 shuttles or 10 zealots? Often just 1 shuttle would accomplish the same thing.
You could certainly try it, but keep in mind how ridiculously weak warp prisms are. 1 turret and a couple ghosts and they are gonna drop real fast.
On July 11 2010 12:25 avilo wrote: I just edited OP with 1/1/1 next to raven opening, as when I made this guide I did not realize it was referred to as 1/1/1 in korea or wherever.
if some mod could edit title as "Ghost mech Terran + 1/1/1Raven vs Protoss" that'd be great
as for the guide, nothing really has changed so far one way or another despite tank nerfs and other buffs/nerfs, so should be good to go still
I find the tank change does hurt a little bit vs stalkers/zealots, but not terribly. I know you're a fan of making vikings/ravens but I actually am finding that just having a handful of marines/ghosts does fine to support vs phoenix/voidray. I actually think I'd rather save the money and just get more of a ground army. I like to avoid starports if I can.
ok maybe someone can answer this for me. this build works great btw, but i have some trouble when they go fast blink stalkers. i figured i could get bunkers or what? how do i stop 10-12 blinking stalkers with about 2 tanks/5-6 marines? and the raven will come out soon if that.
On July 11 2010 12:25 avilo wrote: I just edited OP with 1/1/1 next to raven opening, as when I made this guide I did not realize it was referred to as 1/1/1 in korea or wherever.
if some mod could edit title as "Ghost mech Terran + 1/1/1Raven vs Protoss" that'd be great
as for the guide, nothing really has changed so far one way or another despite tank nerfs and other buffs/nerfs, so should be good to go still
Could you please add some Phase 2 Replays? That would be awesome.
I'm curious, aside from wanting to go 100% mech (aside from the ghosts) don't you find that a marine/marauder combo works better to support the tanks against toss? Hellions just do so little if he moves away from a zealot heavy composition I seem to find.
I never read this thread cause I didn't know it was a raven opening (which is the best tvp opening imo) but this strategy is really well put together. I was looking for ways to incorporate ghosts into my marine, hellion, tank, raven, Viking army and this thread has a lot of ideas. So thanks avilo.
I can't look at the reps now but I think its a good idea to make 15-20 rines to be safe against any sneaky air transitions by protoss. I don't like to overproduce vikings (what terran does?) And sometimes I get caught off guard by 5 carriers or voidrays
On July 11 2010 17:27 TheOracle wrote: I'm curious, aside from wanting to go 100% mech (aside from the ghosts) don't you find that a marine/marauder combo works better to support the tanks against toss? Hellions just do so little if he moves away from a zealot heavy composition I seem to find.
you don't want too many rines late game because colossi will rip through them in seconds and you want to save your gas for tanks. Tbh you don't even need ghosts in your main army if you have a critical mass of tanks and you need all the gas you can spare to get there ASAP. Hellions are good at taking hits from colo and are better meatshields in general than rines.
On July 11 2010 16:18 ahcho00 wrote: ok maybe someone can answer this for me. this build works great btw, but i have some trouble when they go fast blink stalkers. i figured i could get bunkers or what? how do i stop 10-12 blinking stalkers with about 2 tanks/5-6 marines? and the raven will come out soon if that.
You should have more units than that when protoss has 12 stalkers with blink. Work on your macro is the only advice I can give.
On July 11 2010 16:18 ahcho00 wrote: ok maybe someone can answer this for me. this build works great btw, but i have some trouble when they go fast blink stalkers. i figured i could get bunkers or what? how do i stop 10-12 blinking stalkers with about 2 tanks/5-6 marines? and the raven will come out soon if that.
You should have more units than that when protoss has 12 stalkers with blink. Work on your macro is the only advice I can give.
If you rush for a raven you might not have that many units. It's why I go siege expo without a port. I have more tanks, siege mode, and I can even get a turret by my tanks to keep obs away so you can't blink up there. I might even have a ghost by then which really helps considering stalkers are 80/80.
On July 11 2010 16:18 ahcho00 wrote: ok maybe someone can answer this for me. this build works great btw, but i have some trouble when they go fast blink stalkers. i figured i could get bunkers or what? how do i stop 10-12 blinking stalkers with about 2 tanks/5-6 marines? and the raven will come out soon if that.
You should have more units than that when protoss has 12 stalkers with blink. Work on your macro is the only advice I can give.
If you rush for a raven you might not have that many units. It's why I go siege expo without a port. I have more tanks, siege mode, and I can even get a turret by my tanks to keep obs away so you can't blink up there. I might even have a ghost by then which really helps considering stalkers are 80/80.
Ya you won't have 6 tanks but you should have enough to defend provided you went 2 rax or reactor-rax. I haven't had problems defending blink stalkers as long as I didn't try to transition to Hellions.
no my macro is completely fine cuz i'm always making scvs =) and upkeeping supply. nevermind i figured out why i lost that round cuz i went 2 tanks first before the raven.
i figured that the raven before tanks is more crucial than tank before the raven....that's fail for me for not completely reading the guide LOL.
Hey guys, would any of you happen to have any good replays of this build to share from the current patch? Replays that show how to deal with Void Rays would help greatly. As well as any others.
On July 11 2010 16:18 ahcho00 wrote: ok maybe someone can answer this for me. this build works great btw, but i have some trouble when they go fast blink stalkers. i figured i could get bunkers or what? how do i stop 10-12 blinking stalkers with about 2 tanks/5-6 marines? and the raven will come out soon if that.
You should have more units than that when protoss has 12 stalkers with blink. Work on your macro is the only advice I can give.
If you rush for a raven you might not have that many units. It's why I go siege expo without a port. I have more tanks, siege mode, and I can even get a turret by my tanks to keep obs away so you can't blink up there. I might even have a ghost by then which really helps considering stalkers are 80/80.
Ya you won't have 6 tanks but you should have enough to defend provided you went 2 rax or reactor-rax. I haven't had problems defending blink stalkers as long as I didn't try to transition to Hellions.
Well the issue is that they can blink past your defenses and just run around your base causing havok while they expo freely. You don't even need that many stalkers, 5-6 can 1 shot scvs and marines so you can do quite a bit of harass. When you have 10-12 and you can't use pdd because the stalkers will just run away to another spot, you have a serious problem. That many stalkers can clear out tanks super fast and then dance around your useless marines.
I want to say thanks for this build, it has done me very well. Took a few games to really get the feeling of it, but it gets really strong. Recently I've been getting owned if a Protoss sees that I'm doing this. They rush fast expo into 2 gate stalker with obs. Then by the time I'm ready to push out the econ is pretty solid on the protoss.
What seems to be working is 1 gas factory siege into fast CC. I need to play some more with it to see how it is.
On July 16 2010 03:30 Galneryus wrote: What seems to be working is 1 gas factory siege into fast CC. I need to play some more with it to see how it is.
I think this BO has potential. I'll try it out tonight.
Hey, so I've been doing this build for a while, and I absolutely love it to death, but there are a few questions I have to ask.
First off, how do you deal with gas steal? I find that it completely throws me off.
Second, I've been struggeling in early game with this build in maps like blistering sands and kulas ravine, because of early pressure and backdoor busts. I guess I need to get siege mode earlier and focus on defending the backdoor? I haven't tried this actually, so I will.
Third, and this is a more general question about the 1/1/1 build, but how do you deal with hidden tech? When you know its hidden but can't find it (this sucks especially on a 4 player map) do you just assume void rays? DT's seem alot less threatening, but if its just a regular early immortal push, and your rolling with vikings.. you get the idea.
On July 17 2010 00:36 Wrist wrote: Hey, so I've been doing this build for a while, and I absolutely love it to death, but there are a few questions I have to ask.
First off, how do you deal with gas steal? I find that it completely throws me off.
Second, I've been struggeling in early game with this build in maps like blistering sands and kulas ravine, because of early pressure and backdoor busts. I guess I need to get siege mode earlier and focus on defending the backdoor? I haven't tried this actually, so I will.
Third, and this is a more general question about the 1/1/1 build, but how do you deal with hidden tech? When you know its hidden but can't find it (this sucks especially on a 4 player map) do you just assume void rays? DT's seem alot less threatening, but if its just a regular early immortal push, and your rolling with vikings.. you get the idea.
If they gas steal you can choose to kill the gas right away with scvs/marine, or you can take the small gas hit and increase your marine count by adding on a second barracks or marauders. Or just accept the slightly later 1 ref.
As for blistering/kulas, you definitely want to get siege asap there, because 4gates and blink stalkers are common there, and siege mode pretty much is the answer to those builds. As for mid-late game on those maps, you want to completely block off one of the entrances to your base, usually the smaller one near your nat, and then use the rocks as an exit. That also allows you to push towards protoss's gold and another expo on that side of the map with the xel naga tower as well.
You definitely want to control the ground right outside of your natural's choke/the rocks on that map.
And as for hidden tech, I sort of made it a rule of thumb in my mind that if I thought they were proxying a building, but I did not know what it is, then the safest bet is to always build vikings instead of banshees. That way you don't insta-die to proxy void rays, you can counter hidden phoenixes, hidden DTS is no problem with raven first, and versus 4gates or 3gate robo immortal/collosus the viking will still be able to help in the ground or the air.
That's just a rule I made for myself so I do not die to random all-ins or proxies, has worked pretty well so far, even gotten the random idiots calling you hacker for building vikings to counter voidrays you had "no idea were coming." lol. Although if you are very sure they are going 3gate robo, or 4 gate, banshee with your tanks/marines is better than vikings.
On July 17 2010 00:36 Wrist wrote: Hey, so I've been doing this build for a while, and I absolutely love it to death, but there are a few questions I have to ask.
First off, how do you deal with gas steal? I find that it completely throws me off.
Second, I've been struggeling in early game with this build in maps like blistering sands and kulas ravine, because of early pressure and backdoor busts. I guess I need to get siege mode earlier and focus on defending the backdoor? I haven't tried this actually, so I will.
Third, and this is a more general question about the 1/1/1 build, but how do you deal with hidden tech? When you know its hidden but can't find it (this sucks especially on a 4 player map) do you just assume void rays? DT's seem alot less threatening, but if its just a regular early immortal push, and your rolling with vikings.. you get the idea.
If they gas steal you can choose to kill the gas right away with scvs/marine, or you can take the small gas hit and increase your marine count by adding on a second barracks or marauders. Or just accept the slightly later 1 ref.
As for blistering/kulas, you definitely want to get siege asap there, because 4gates and blink stalkers are common there, and siege mode pretty much is the answer to those builds. As for mid-late game on those maps, you want to completely block off one of the entrances to your base, usually the smaller one near your nat, and then use the rocks as an exit. That also allows you to push towards protoss's gold and another expo on that side of the map with the xel naga tower as well.
You definitely want to control the ground right outside of your natural's choke/the rocks on that map.
And as for hidden tech, I sort of made it a rule of thumb in my mind that if I thought they were proxying a building, but I did not know what it is, then the safest bet is to always build vikings instead of banshees. That way you don't insta-die to proxy void rays, you can counter hidden phoenixes, hidden DTS is no problem with raven first, and versus 4gates or 3gate robo immortal/collosus the viking will still be able to help in the ground or the air.
That's just a rule I made for myself so I do not die to random all-ins or proxies, has worked pretty well so far, even gotten the random idiots calling you hacker for building vikings to counter voidrays you had "no idea were coming." lol. Although if you are very sure they are going 3gate robo, or 4 gate, banshee with your tanks/marines is better than vikings.
I find it interesting you say throw down a 2nd rax. I open with 1 gas til cc starts normally anyways. The extra minerals allow you to expand faster, and you can just use bunkers if you need more defense. I would NEVER throw down another rax.
On July 17 2010 00:36 Wrist wrote: Hey, so I've been doing this build for a while, and I absolutely love it to death, but there are a few questions I have to ask.
First off, how do you deal with gas steal? I find that it completely throws me off.
Second, I've been struggeling in early game with this build in maps like blistering sands and kulas ravine, because of early pressure and backdoor busts. I guess I need to get siege mode earlier and focus on defending the backdoor? I haven't tried this actually, so I will.
Third, and this is a more general question about the 1/1/1 build, but how do you deal with hidden tech? When you know its hidden but can't find it (this sucks especially on a 4 player map) do you just assume void rays? DT's seem alot less threatening, but if its just a regular early immortal push, and your rolling with vikings.. you get the idea.
If they gas steal you can choose to kill the gas right away with scvs/marine, or you can take the small gas hit and increase your marine count by adding on a second barracks or marauders. Or just accept the slightly later 1 ref.
As for blistering/kulas, you definitely want to get siege asap there, because 4gates and blink stalkers are common there, and siege mode pretty much is the answer to those builds. As for mid-late game on those maps, you want to completely block off one of the entrances to your base, usually the smaller one near your nat, and then use the rocks as an exit. That also allows you to push towards protoss's gold and another expo on that side of the map with the xel naga tower as well.
You definitely want to control the ground right outside of your natural's choke/the rocks on that map.
And as for hidden tech, I sort of made it a rule of thumb in my mind that if I thought they were proxying a building, but I did not know what it is, then the safest bet is to always build vikings instead of banshees. That way you don't insta-die to proxy void rays, you can counter hidden phoenixes, hidden DTS is no problem with raven first, and versus 4gates or 3gate robo immortal/collosus the viking will still be able to help in the ground or the air.
That's just a rule I made for myself so I do not die to random all-ins or proxies, has worked pretty well so far, even gotten the random idiots calling you hacker for building vikings to counter voidrays you had "no idea were coming." lol. Although if you are very sure they are going 3gate robo, or 4 gate, banshee with your tanks/marines is better than vikings.
I find it interesting you say throw down a 2nd rax. I open with 1 gas til cc starts normally anyways. The extra minerals allow you to expand faster, and you can just use bunkers if you need more defense. I would NEVER throw down another rax.
well, lots of people like bio, so a second rax would work out for them. Otherwise, faster CC is good too. Second rax seems like it would also help vs voidrays since you'll have less gas for vikings but slightly more minerals if you don't kill the geyser with scvs. Lately I try to kill the gas asap with like 8 scvs. I dunno how much that slows you down though.
I think it's kind of sad when a race becomes so strong that they move to a less effective build in order to challenge themselves. Ah well, not my problem I play terran!
this build is crap. any 4 gate push, or even 3 gate 1 stargate with fast void, will decimate a 1/1/1. best opening against toss is a 7 minute ghost, marine, marauder push; then expanding into marines and medevacs, double port shees or mech.
im very much against 1/1/1 in general, unless it's TvT but even then it's debatable, because there are better openings, and good players will severely punish your lack of direction to tech up. in addition, rushing a raven serves next to no purpose. you could be using those resources to exert pressure on the opponent.
On July 16 2010 03:30 Galneryus wrote: I want to say thanks for this build, it has done me very well. Took a few games to really get the feeling of it, but it gets really strong. Recently I've been getting owned if a Protoss sees that I'm doing this. They rush fast expo into 2 gate stalker with obs. Then by the time I'm ready to push out the econ is pretty solid on the protoss.
What seems to be working is 1 gas factory siege into fast CC. I need to play some more with it to see how it is.
I donno how I missed this post earlier, but this is exactly what I've been doing.
1/1/1 builds automatically lose if scouted early enough. Protoss can actually expand off 1 gate and have an expo + 4 or more gateways and a robo or other tech done by the push timing. The push that comes just hits too late. You can push with your first 2 tanks and marines and do damage or win but terran is basically in the dark unless they spot the expo going down. They have to assume it's not safe unless they spot the expo.
edit: to the poster above me. No allin strategies work vs 1/1/1. It is the strongest defensive build which is why people started using it. It's only weakness is that it can't be aggressive so protoss can expand easily. The original purpose of 1/1/1 was to combat voidrays. You can't be serious when you say 3 gate stargate beats it. I'm going to assume that you're new here and haven't spent much time lurking since you don't seem to understand how this game works or how to post nicely.
On July 23 2010 09:10 Umie wrote: this build is crap. any 4 gate push, or even 3 gate 1 stargate with fast void, will decimate a 1/1/1. best opening against toss is a 7 minute ghost, marine, marauder push; then expanding into marines and medevacs, double port shees or mech.
im very much against 1/1/1 in general, unless it's TvT but even then it's debatable, because there are better openings, and good players will severely punish your lack of direction to tech up. in addition, rushing a raven serves next to no purpose. you could be using those resources to exert pressure on the opponent.
Wait, 1/1/1 is debatable in TvT? What? TvT is either one of two things at the moment. You either 1/1/1 and get marines/tanks/vikings, or, you get 1/1/1 and get fast banshee and push with marines, a hellion and a banshee to exploit the time before siege finishes (of a player going the other 1/1/1 build I described).
See how both include 1/1/1? If you don't 1/1/1, you lose air control, then BANG, you'd need to outnumber his tanks like 6 to 1 since he will have the scouting for their insane range. And how does rushing a Raven serve next to no purpose. Did you read the build, it kinda points out quite a few purposes...
On July 23 2010 09:10 Umie wrote: this build is crap. any 4 gate push, or even 3 gate 1 stargate with fast void, will decimate a 1/1/1. best opening against toss is a 7 minute ghost, marine, marauder push; then expanding into marines and medevacs, double port shees or mech.
im very much against 1/1/1 in general, unless it's TvT but even then it's debatable, because there are better openings, and good players will severely punish your lack of direction to tech up. in addition, rushing a raven serves next to no purpose. you could be using those resources to exert pressure on the opponent.
Wait, 1/1/1 is debatable in TvT? What? TvT is either one of two things at the moment. You either 1/1/1 and get marines/tanks/vikings, or, you get 1/1/1 and get fast banshee and push with marines, a hellion and a banshee to exploit the time before siege finishes (of a player going the other 1/1/1 build I described).
See how both include 1/1/1? If you don't 1/1/1, you lose air control, then BANG, you'd need to outnumber his tanks like 6 to 1 since he will have the scouting for their insane range. And how does rushing a Raven serve next to no purpose. Did you read the build, it kinda points out quite a few purposes...
Wrong. I never 1/1/1 and I win tons of TvTs vs high level players. You don't need a starport at all til BCs are a threat. Read my posts about TvT and you'll understand.
Care to point them out to me? I'm not sure where to look. I mean I'm completely open to seeing it done a different way (keen even, the mass vikings can get a little boring) but its just that I have literally never seen a non 1/1/1 build used (or at least something close to it, with at least one of each building). The closest was day9 talking about marauder/thor, but ive never seen it in action. Hell, the 1/1/1 fast banshee was the first variation I saw, on Gretorp's stream. I even tried the marauder/thor, but it is a very fine line between winning and getting annihilated by sieged tanks. And the starport gives you the air control to not have your mech done in by abusing its non-mobility. So yeah, please do tell. I was just describing what I've seen and experienced, but Im keen for other strategies.
Edit: To clarify, any non-cheesy build that doesn't included 1/1/1. I know you could 3/4 rax and abuse the timing window before siege gets up, or something similar, but it doesn't really have a good followthrough.
Gotta love the new posters that dunno what they are talking about. And yes, the strength of 1/1/1 is the ability to react defensively in a variety of ways to lots of Protoss all-ins.
The people saying you cannot be aggressive have not played it enough. You can be aggressive with a 1/1/1 opening, but if you do play defensively, then yes, protoss can get their expansion up a lot before yours. That is purely dependent on your style.
You can get the second factory very early on your reactor and cut all marine production if they are expoing, which lends to lots of drop play. Or you can get more barracks and push out with tanks/marauders/pdd and expo behind it. There's a lot of stuff you can do with 1/1/1, including banshee play.
If you want to play some type of more aggressive opening, then 1/1/1 is not for you. 2-3 rax or 2rax fact will suit you more, so go do those.
1/1/1 is solid because you will almost never die to all-in attempts if you play it right and react and scout well. You also will almost never outright kill the opponent though. So basically, if you think you are better than your opponent, it's a great build, or if you are unfamiliar with your opponent or have no idea what they will do in a series, it's a solid build to use as well.
It works great laddering as well because ladder for some people is a massive cheese/aggro fest sometimes. So you'll win a lot of games from just simply defending an all-in from P, taking your natural and rolling out like 2-3 min later.
That is the strength - the versatility of the opening and transitions you can do from it. Since banshees are stronger than wraiths, and PDD is usefull against stalkers, 1/1/1 will always be good, whereas in SC1 1/1/1 would only offer you a fast vessel, dmatrix, and drops essentially - not to mention there were no add-on swaps and you needed a science facility.
The motivation for this post is to discuss the opening of 1/1/1 for a transition into mech and its weaknesses.
First of some general observations, which will be the base for my argumentation. **Constructing a good mech build against Protoss is harder compared to a TvZ Mechbuild, because of the following factors (feel free to disagree, but please critize in a constructive manner): - The threat of air early (Void Ray) compared to BW mech, where P was forced to start of with ground. - Blink Stalker harass and Tank snipes. Forces you to be more carefully and ideally requires more support. - Immortals crushing unsupported Tanks. - Especially as matchups arent as standarized as in BW one need a very flexible opening to account for all the different possibilties (my solution / suggestion will follow). - If Protoss spots your 1/1/1 opening / fast Factory they have a strong motivation to open with a Robo, which offers protection against Banshees, ways to deal with low / early Tanks and finally a way to deal with (mass) Marine due to the Colossus. -With 1/1/1 i still feel a little bit flimsy against very aggresive builds. Especially reactoring my barracks that early. Having this production delay and no Marauders makes it a little bit weak in my eyes. -Where the flexibilty of 1/1/1 is nice, i dont like the builds progression, because you have to take your second gas very early, which makes you weak to gas steals and my biggest concern: Delays the expansion by a huge amount. I always try to open in a way that i take one gas, start CC with my first 400 leftover minerals and then place my second gas immediatly. This gives you the 4 Gas much earlier also. I tested the suggesting opening, which gives you 1 reactored barracks, 1 Fac, 1 Starport. Producing off all of these doesnt give me my expansion in a timely fashion, unless i cut production of one of these, which makes the build a little bit inefficient in my eyes.
These points are enough for now, because it dont want to prove that the 1/1/1 is bad, but simply that there alternatives that have other advantages: For now i am stuck with Gretorps Marine + Ghost opener (2 Barracks, one with Tech Lab for Ghost and Marauder production). I think i dont have to explain why this is a good opener. For me it works because i can start my Expo really fast and it gives me options against all Protoss builds.
Having the Ghost before the Tanks is the correct order in my opinion, even if Protoss decided to go a none Immortal centric opener like Void Ray or Blink Stalker. In case of VR Ghost Marine offers a very solid defense. Against Blink Stalker it is also very good, because it has the capacity to quickly start producing Marauders of two Barracks. Gretorps transition is to add two more Barracks after the CC and then tech to Starport for Medivacs and or air dominance. In case of mech, i just would take the opener (2Barracks Marine Ghost into CC) and would follow it up with a mech transition by starting my factory after the CC alongside with the second Gas. Then one could either add a second factory or a Starport depending on the protoss build.
To sum it up here are my main points for choosing this opening: -Great flexibilty of Marine Ghost against any kind of Protoss opening. Also makes oneself less predictable, because one could follow up this opening with a bio transition. This leads to lower chance of P choosing the correct counter. -Great transition and really fast expansion (compared to the strong tech and timing push capacities of a direct 1/1/1). -Early Ghosts, which should be one of the core units in every TvP (none-all-in) build, again i see Ghosts as a precondition for using Tanks sucessfully.
PS: There should be a seperate discussion about TLO's Barracks, Factory, Barracks opening, which gives you great capacities for an early push, but might lack in terms of versatility (at least this was my impression from the King of the Beta tourney games)..
I think if you go 1/1/1 vs toss, it's wise not to get ravens immediately (use EMPs/scans instead to kill observers). You've really sacrifised your army strength and expasion ability so you should really be getting banshees to harass. This is seen in IntotheRainBow's T v P style against Tester. It takes mad micro skills to pull off though.
Otherwise, to go mech, I'd advise forgoing the starport until much later (when collossi comes out or when you have a decent bio support to need medivacs). It's important to spend your precious gas into tanks and ghosts which will allow you to defend your natual expansion.
You can do just as well, if not better, with twice as many Void Rays with Flux Vanes. After Interceptor costs, 2 Void Rays are about equal to one Carrier in cost. Its so, so easy in a game at that late expansiony stage to sneak a blob of Void Rays in somewhere, charge them up to full long before Vikings show up and then rape the everloving shit out of the Vikings (full charge + speed upgrade + Vikings being Armoured = good fucking luck, buddy!) when they finally show up to defend.
The only thing that's going to stop you at that point is lots, and lots, of Marines, which are stuck on the ground and immobile as all hell on a map like that.
I did like his response to the Marine + Tank + Raven combo, by dropping a Council and starting the Zealot charge upgrade before he even started building the Nexus, but he had the good fortune of being on a really big map. That combo is just unstoppable on a map like Steppes.
You can do just as well, if not better, with twice as many Void Rays with Flux Vanes. After Interceptor costs, 2 Void Rays are about equal to one Carrier in cost. Its so, so easy in a game at that late expansiony stage to sneak a blob of Void Rays in somewhere, charge them up to full long before Vikings show up and then rape the everloving shit out of the Vikings (full charge + speed upgrade + Vikings being Armoured = good fucking luck, buddy!) when they finally show up to defend.
The only thing that's going to stop you at that point is lots, and lots, of Marines, which are stuck on the ground and immobile as all hell on a map like that.
I did like his response to the Marine + Tank + Raven combo, by dropping a Council and starting the Zealot charge upgrade before he even started building the Nexus, but he had the good fortune of being on a really big map. That combo is just unstoppable on a map like Steppes.
Actually in large numbers thors + ghosts decimates voidrays. The mobility is the biggest issue. Vikings also do just fine, especially once they can focus out voidrays in 1 volley. You aren't going to usually be able to get away with that kind of an investment easily as well. Remember, voidrays don't have 4 armor base.
You can do just as well, if not better, with twice as many Void Rays with Flux Vanes. After Interceptor costs, 2 Void Rays are about equal to one Carrier in cost. Its so, so easy in a game at that late expansiony stage to sneak a blob of Void Rays in somewhere, charge them up to full long before Vikings show up and then rape the everloving shit out of the Vikings (full charge + speed upgrade + Vikings being Armoured = good fucking luck, buddy!) when they finally show up to defend.
The only thing that's going to stop you at that point is lots, and lots, of Marines, which are stuck on the ground and immobile as all hell on a map like that.
I did like his response to the Marine + Tank + Raven combo, by dropping a Council and starting the Zealot charge upgrade before he even started building the Nexus, but he had the good fortune of being on a really big map. That combo is just unstoppable on a map like Steppes.
Actually in large numbers thors + ghosts decimates voidrays. The mobility is the biggest issue. Vikings also do just fine, especially once they can focus out voidrays in 1 volley. You aren't going to usually be able to get away with that kind of an investment easily as well. Remember, voidrays don't have 4 armor base.
No way, Thors are just as squishy as Vikings and they certainly aren't going to be responding to Void Ray threats the least bit quickly.
Ghosts can certainly swing the fight in the Viking's favour, but you can always run away if you're boxed into a corner like that, recharge and find a new target to hit.
The Vikings can get off about two free volleys, but once those Void Rays close the distance they drop like panties at prom. If they're completely uncharged, then you only need about one Viking to every Void Ray (1 to 1), but I'd estimate you need at LEAST 50% more gas spent on Vikings to win the fight with just Vikings alone if they're fully charged (3 to 1).
I've won a lot of long PvT games doing this and I honestly think its borderline overpowered. But, you really need a lot of time to pull it off and deal with many other back and forth situations before you can think of deploying it. Its not like you can just rush a handful of flux-vaned Void Rays and win without a care. You need to establish yourself beyond the mid-game first.
On July 23 2010 09:10 Umie wrote: this build is crap. any 4 gate push, or even 3 gate 1 stargate with fast void, will decimate a 1/1/1. best opening against toss is a 7 minute ghost, marine, marauder push; then expanding into marines and medevacs, double port shees or mech.
im very much against 1/1/1 in general, unless it's TvT but even then it's debatable, because there are better openings, and good players will severely punish your lack of direction to tech up. in addition, rushing a raven serves next to no purpose. you could be using those resources to exert pressure on the opponent.
LOL
You realize that 1/1/1 was created in order to counter precisely those builds you were talking about? x] This build easily counters any kind of stargate tech rush. Additionally, the tanks will easily stop a standard 4-gate push.
Only problem with this build is that there's not as much early aggression so Toss can get a free expo.
It just soft counters nearly all tech plays that a Toss can pull off.
This build also assumes that a toss can't stop 3 ghosts from harassing (Warpgates GG) and that the Terran has map control. Fat chance that the Terran has map control as this build is so reactive that Toss can just build more stuff.
On July 28 2010 10:16 Percutio wrote: 1/1/1 Doesn't counter anything really.
It just soft counters nearly all tech plays that a Toss can pull off.
This build also assumes that a toss can't stop 3 ghosts from harassing (Warpgates GG) and that the Terran has map control. Fat chance that the Terran has map control as this build is so reactive that Toss can just build more stuff.
yah, it really is a soft counter and reactionary. And yah, carriers also are incredibly strong late game, as well as mass voids versus this - if you don't scan it or scout it =/ carriers are pretty insane.
Nonetheless it seems really good for ladders as you are safe against a lot of different styles. Sure, it might be weak against a heavy macro player but the ladders aren't stacked with a lot of those.
this build doesnt work. protoss goes void rays. gg. DUR SCOUT IT DUMBASS NASD. you cant.. you scout 3/4 gate they throw up stargate elsewhere cause of proxy pylons. VOIDS ARE IMBA AND OP v T right now.. if you do '1/1/1' and they dont have void rays you lose. if you dont do 1/1/1 and they do go void rays you lose. i dont understand why more pros dont go for voids cause they are so incredibly cheap. there is nothing T can do about it. and then throw in 'fazing' which people dont even need to use (and dont i dont know why) and its complete and utter destruction.
Void Rays are exceptionally effective but the 1/1/1 raven opening build is the best build you've got for it. It's all about tight mechanics with void ray. You have to stay entirely in-base, and you have to bunker to not die on a bad angle on your wall. Move marines at very fast respond times to void ray blips on the map and never let the viking stop moving so you can kite with it. Matching 1 to 1 viking to void ray either you micro the void ray down and push with marine/tank/raven and it's auto-gg or they micromanage void ray over stalker and then you push and as long as you have good unit position on your push it's gg.
I think if Terran push this 1/1/1 marine-tank-raven hard enough it'll move Protoss completely off one-base attack-attack aggression. The only 1 base protoss crap that gave me pause was lots of phoenix, losing a game to some guy named nony, but it was rare and I had an inexperienced response.
Standard supply-rax 1/1/1 against P was very powerful for a while. Good protoss players have learned to beat 1/1/1 builds (or at least make them much more difficult) as its popularity boomed. There's a number of reasons I don't run these builds anymore:
1) Very vulnerable to gas steals. Opponents who exploit this by sending stalkers up your ramp while you try to shoot the assimilator make it even worse. Most 1/1/1 compositions can not be supported off one gas (for reference, producing siege tanks alone takes about one refinery operating at full capacity worth of production) 2) Relatively easy for P to get an army that can hold off early pushes and expand before you 3) Difficult to apply early pressure/harassment 4) Gives the other player time to get basically anything they desire. Chargelots for example.
There is the TLO-style supply-refinery-rax into reaper/hellion 1/1/1 that may become more popular due to the fact that you can apply early pressure much more easily as well as finish the 1/1/1 progression around 30 seconds faster. This is dangerous on two-player maps, especially small ones, though.
Recently it seems that the rax-fac-rax opening is more popular vs toss than the rax-fac-port opening due to the stability of marauder marine in the early-midgame. Hellion harass and the threat of a runby is usually enough to keep the toss in their base (which is what you want until you get your ghosts + tanks in larger #s).
With the R-F-R you really need to scout agressively with your hellions when you are harassing, make sure there are no DTs or Voids coming your way.
On July 28 2010 18:12 iEchoic wrote: 1) Very vulnerable to gas steals. Opponents who exploit this by sending stalkers up your ramp while you try to shoot the assimilator make it even worse. Most 1/1/1 compositions can not be supported off one gas (for reference, producing siege tanks alone takes about one refinery operating at full capacity worth of production) 2) Relatively easy for P to get an army that can hold off early pushes and expand before you 3) Difficult to apply early pressure/harassment 4) Gives the other player time to get basically anything they desire. Chargelots for example.
1. Instead of reactor-barracks, double barracks. It's easy to adapt around a gas steal. 2. It's easy to hold off very early pushes out of 1/1/1 but protoss builds that go up to 2 gate and core before nexus are not timed right to pull ahead before a scouting terran can push. This means protoss expands have to come very early and drastically change the options for Terran. 3. This is true in any situation Terran does not do rax MM pressure. Even proposed reaper-hellion suffer the same to micromanaged stalker and forcefields. 4. There's no tech option that Terran should fear out of 1/1/1. For example, chargelots are easy to counter simply by positioning marines behind the siege tanks when you push. Counter intuitive given that siege tanks have terrible cost to hp ratios, but this actually increases unit survival by a significant amount because they have larger hp totals, 1 armor, and more hp/sec from SCV repair than any medivac can provide for any one marine.
wow, seriously? i can't believe people don't even read your initial post avilo before commenting.
THIS IS NOT AN AGGRESSION BUILD. holy &*(( people, this build is to defend and might i say defend VERY well into a natural, building an army and then slowly containing the protoss army with tanks/EMP/ravens/marines/banshee harass.
you want to keep the protoss from expanding? get 3-4 banshees and kill that probe. kite around stalkers -- SCOUT. build some bunkers. learn to defend.
if you use this build like u would with MMM, then yes u will die and u will die horribly thinking "what went wrong".
please stop posting "this build doesn't work" blah blah blah. the idea of this build is to give the terran an advantage at the start so u don't lose to early DT rushes, or fast immortal push. 1/1/1 doesn't mean u can't adjust, build another factory or rax or starport, ghost academy for EMP, etc.
this build is almost flawless to virtually anything protoss can push u with early game. there are mass stalkers of course, but 1 raven/handful of marines/bunkers 1 tank should be what u have by the time he's attacking and it should be more than enough to take out that stalker army until you get seige up and slowly expand/contain.
On July 28 2010 18:12 iEchoic wrote: Surprised this is still being discussed.
Standard supply-rax 1/1/1 against P was very powerful for a while. Good protoss players have learned to beat 1/1/1 builds (or at least make them much more difficult) as its popularity boomed. There's a number of reasons I don't run these builds anymore:
1) Very vulnerable to gas steals. Opponents who exploit this by sending stalkers up your ramp while you try to shoot the assimilator make it even worse. Most 1/1/1 compositions can not be supported off one gas (for reference, producing siege tanks alone takes about one refinery operating at full capacity worth of production) 2) Relatively easy for P to get an army that can hold off early pushes and expand before you 3) Difficult to apply early pressure/harassment 4) Gives the other player time to get basically anything they desire. Chargelots for example.
There is the TLO-style supply-refinery-rax into reaper/hellion 1/1/1 that may become more popular due to the fact that you can apply early pressure much more easily as well as finish the 1/1/1 progression around 30 seconds faster. This is dangerous on two-player maps, especially small ones, though.
Thanks man, I recognized your name from the CNC3/RA3 community, you were one of the biggest names and top players, and now I can use your guide to learn TvP (and T in general) better, which I really want to do
Very good guide, I have been using it as a base for my strategies while climbing the ladder
First, absolutely magnificent post & strategy outline; this type of play appeals to me greatly! Absolutely love it.
Second, I didn't read through all the 13 pages so my apologies if the answer lies there, but would there be any recent replays available? I just couldn't get the ones in the first post to work, would very much appreciate a replay pack or just individual games. I really want to see bunch of these games and try to absorb as much information as possible.
On August 05 2010 03:09 drewbie.root wrote: its a good strategy.. until the toss makes voidrays and you insta-lose.
I'm actually not sure where you're coming from on this. I've dealt with voidrays, and yes sometimes you can lose to them, but often I see them, focus with marines/ghosts, get some vikings out and maybe a thor or two and then they're really not a threat. The issue is if all your AA is killed off and you're left with like, tanks vs voidrays, you lose your push. That happens to me a lot, but it usually isn't even GG if that happens.
Stargate play early game should NEVER be met with a starport. It reduces your ability to push and your tankcount and eco by too much. I've decided it just doesn't work. Make more marines and throw down some turrets, you need the gas for tanks.
I think once you're on 2 base you can afford to throw down a port or two to deal with voidrays.
The real issue is voidrays are often difficult to scout and prepare for. A good protoss who proxies 3 stargates in midgame can ruin your day - but that's what protoss does in BW too =P
I lost to this earlier today by none other than avilo... you cant really go voidray cuz he builds turrets every 5 feet and has a few vikings that really discourage voidrays. I honestly cant think of anything I should have done except HT to feedback all the thors and ghosts he had. I am really stumped...I guess I should have just mass expanded
I know I asked this already but could anyone provide us replays of ghost mech (1-1-1 raven opening) in action? I would be so happy about that.
I've been trying to implement and execute it against tosses and for the most part it has worked superbly. I have lost to stupid things like early rushes by not getting SCV's to repair the wall in time etc, but when I manage to pull the build just right and micro properly this is just an awesome strategy. Mind you, I'm a Bronze leaguer (lol).
Huge thanks to Avilo and others (again) who have contributed to this thread, it has definitely given me a solid approach to TvP which truly works wonders if I'm able to execute it properly.
Just so it doesnt go unheard, here is the third post in a row asking for replays . Avilo plesae post some rep pack or just some reps of you doing this strat man, itd be awesome to see it in action so that we can actually see how you play this style...
I wont love your family though, i think thats kind of sick... (reference to the post above me )
I will try to play some 1-1-1 TvPs and get yall some reps today; God knows been trying for days but all I get is TvT!
Er, I think that there is a way to make the replays work; they are definitely worth watching. I believe that Trump streams 1-1-1 TvPs also, but he's been plagued by endless TvT just like the rest of us.
I will try to post some replays as well. But I, too, would like to see some replays by the pioneer himself because I feel like my play isn't as clean as it could be (my biggest weakness has always been void rays). I will post a replay or two when I get home in a few hours.
For void rays, you have to get a quick swap of your tech-labbed starport to a reactor. For this reason, always build your port close to your rax. Also, you should be making marines constantly until you start making ghosts.
Actually early void rays are quite easy to repel in my experience, by the time they hit you have a bunch of marines and possibly a starport.
The main problem with this build is that, in my opinion, it is quite passive. And carriers are a huge, huge pain to deal with. Yes I know you can kill probes and nukes expansions, but the protoss still has a lot of opportunities to expand. That said, it's a bloody awesome build and its far, far more fun to play than the various iterations of MMM/ghost out there.
Here are some replays to quench your thirst then as phase 2 hit, more protoss of course got familiar with this play style and started doing carriers/void rays in late game. So I started to use thors a lot more often, they are good versus void rays and gateway units in general.
it is still a very viable playstyle, i'll have to update the guide about thor usage with ghostmech (when im not lazy).
What about that game against....forgot where u lost Avilo? against 5 carriers , u made thors -_-' any way the ideea to defeat this build is try to go late game and go mass carriers(because he will not have vikings if he thinks u go standard Stalker/Chargelots/Immortal etc...)
You seem to have corporated Thors into your play, any specific reason for this? Also, you opened up with a Marauder instead of Marines. These are of course little things but I'm so friggin' curious about slightest nyances that I just can't help myself asking these questions. ;-P
It's just that the build and play you pulled off was somewhat different from the stuff you outlined in the original post - can you share some thoughts about this? You did say you need to update the original post, so I'll be waiting that to unfold. :-)
I apologize if I'm asking stupid questions but I'm still quite new to SC2, so I'm trying to absorb as much information as possible.
On August 12 2010 15:08 Lunzela wrote: What about that game against....forgot where u lost Avilo? against 5 carriers , u made thors -_-' any way the ideea to defeat this build is try to go late game and go mass carriers(because he will not have vikings if he thinks u go standard Stalker/Chargelots/Immortal etc...)
Obviously thors suck versus carriers, but in that ladder game I decided to TRY them - and it just happened to be a game that was casted even though it was a pretty bad game. (also iirc, I didn't scan or scout the protoss guy's main for tech for like 5 min lol, deserved to lose that one).
How do you think I have this refined down pretty well now? a lot, a lot of testing, which means a lot and a lot of losing games to see what works and what does not work. That's the first (and needless to say only) game where i tried mass thors versus carriers - just to see how it would work never know if you do not try something. so never be afraid to try something and see how it ends up. Reactored vikings are always the best option versus carriers.
On August 12 2010 15:40 ekhie wrote: You seem to have corporated Thors into your play, any specific reason for this? Also, you opened up with a Marauder instead of Marines. These are of course little things but I'm so friggin' curious about slightest nyances that I just can't help myself asking these questions. ;-P
It's just that the build and play you pulled off was somewhat different from the stuff you outlined in the original post - can you share some thoughts about this? You did say you need to update the original post, so I'll be waiting that to unfold. :-)
I apologize if I'm asking stupid questions but I'm still quite new to SC2, so I'm trying to absorb as much information as possible.
ah, just like everyone else i tweak things a lot, so I test different units and things to see how someone will react differently, and to see how many units you can have at a certain time etc.
the thors are really good versus void rays and pretty much anything, a lot of protoss players have gotten used to hellion harrass, so it's just another way to switch things up too pouring all your minerals into thors instead of hellions.
the fundamental ideas and unit composition are the same though. mainly the thors inclusion really does very good against the mass void ray switches later in the game (thors+emp+turrets).
Wait, how do thors beat Void Rays? VRs are armored and are the direct hard counter to thors (and many other things). Unless he clumps his VRs likea chump or has some ridiculous number of the, I don't see how VRs work.
I'm tryin to make ghost+mech work vs Toss too. God damn it's hard.
Yea i'm trying Ghost mech also and my problem is that toss just outexpands me, but then usses his units just to prevent me from taking third expo and so on until i am forced to move out. I like playing like this but at same time i find it very hard to get to my next expo after the natural one. Will watch the 2 of your replays now and perhaps i learn something.
On August 12 2010 15:08 Lunzela wrote: What about that Game against....forgot where u lost Avilo? against 5 carriers , u made thors -_-' any way the ideea to defeat this build is try to go late Game and go mass carriers(because he will not have vikings if he thinks u go standard Stalker/Chargelots/Immortal etc...)
Simply put, "he thinks u go xxx" is not diamond-caliber play. You HAVE to scout. Minerals are not as important for this build, so you should be scanning a LOT. Every time you do a drop, you should be getting some good info on what he is doing. Rule of thumb that if you see a carrier beacon, it's time to get some vikings (even if he only got it for flux vanes / air upgrades). You should have 1-2 reactors already, so just swap your starport. Don't make too many vikings though, mix it up with turrets and a few thors so you do not leave yourself open to a tech switch.
Also, carriers are expensive and take a long time to deploy. If you ever get "ambushed" by a carrier masser, you are doing it wrong; watch your replay to pick up on all of your missed opportunities to harass their economy and force them to build lower-tier units.
On August 12 2010 19:36 link0 wrote: Wait, how do thors beat Void Rays? VRs are armored and are the direct hard counter to thors (and many other things). Unless he clumps his VRs likea chump or has some ridiculous number of the, I don't see how VRs work.
I'm tryin to make ghost+mech work vs Toss too. God damn it's hard.
VRs are hardly a direct counter to thors. It's a given that mass VRs beat mass thors (with micro), however a few thors backed by marines, ghosts, turrets and vikings will have no problem.
On August 12 2010 20:06 Svizcy wrote: Yea i'm trying Ghost mech also and my problem is that toss just outexpands me, but then usses his units just to prevent me from taking third expo and so on until i am forced to move out. I like playing like this but at same time i find it very hard to get to my next expo after the natural one. Will watch the 2 of your replays now and perhaps i learn something.
good day, svizcy
You HAVE to harass their economy. Hellion drops, banshees, anything. Probes have to die, or you will definitely get outproduced.
I have been practising doing a ghost/marine (+some marauders in the mix) opening Gretorp style to have mobility and a stable defense vs any early all in cheeses. The idea is to either make a timing push or just turtle up with bunkers and etc until you can grab your expansion and build up a solid mech army. You stick to only barracks play until you have that expansion up because using ghosts eats in to your gas. When your expo is up you make a factory and starport from which you get out some tanks and vikings. At this point I'd suggest having two barracks, one with a reactor and one with a tech lab. When you can afford it you go for another factory and starport. If possible you throw in Thors later on.
1 base: Marines, Ghosts + some Marauders. 2 base: Marines, Ghosts, Tanks, Vikings + some Marauders and a Raven or two (2x PDD or even seeker missiles, why not?), possibly some Thors as well 3 base: Ghosts, Tanks, Vikings, Thors + some Marines Marauders and Ravens 4 base: Later tier focus, of cvourse
Bio into heavy mech transitions. Might wanna get some medivacs and hellions up for mobility + harass options. Even teching cloaked banshees might be a good idea since you have your raven(s) to snipe observers and all.
I'll throw up some replays when I have had some good matches. I haven't actually been able to practise this well since game went retail due to lack of gaming time.
Firstly, thanks for writing this up. I've been using it since around phase 2 and i've worked up from gold to mid diamond. I'm just wondering when's the best time to move out? Whenever the protoss doesn't attack me but rather plays defensively, I find that I don't have the map control to expand or deny expansions.
Also I've just noticed that you said put first 100 gas on factory while I normally get reactor for barracks first. Is this a must or personal preference?
One more question, how many vikings should you have to counter collosi/ if you scout a robotics bay. I'm having the most trouble with collosi right now.
Once again thanks, great build got me to 400 elo diamond, and hopefully further in the future.
edit: I noticed this build doesn't have the marine numbers mid game to counter pheonix's, is this when its a good time to build thors, or should I put down barracks?
Here's my latest attempt at this strategy. After reviewing it, I realize that I could be gaining map control in several points of the match and made it that much easier but this strategy is still new to me so I would appreciate all feedback.
On August 13 2010 01:29 mieke wrote: Here's my latest attempt at this strategy. After reviewing it, I realize that I could be gaining map control in several points of the match and made it that much easier but this strategy is still new to me so I would appreciate all feedback.
Just watched this replay. Build execution is pretty solid imo but there were a couple things you did I'm not so sure about. For one why is it necessary to drop the hellions from a medievac? This map provides a great flanking path of approach already. Also I was left feeling as if you could have been doing more to harass, (auto-turrets, cloaked banshees, more sneaky hellion shenanigans) this build and this execution of this build demonstrate the power vs gateway and robo units.
Can someone upload a replay vs mass voidrays? I having some trouble with these in my own practice games.
Hmm...I never considered using the auto-turret as a harass tool only b/c PDD seems too useful to not always have full energy to use. But you're right on the banshees, I should try harassing with them. I usually don't get cloak b/c 200 gas is a lot to kill some probes especially when they get detection. Though I should try it, b/c it would probably force them into a defensive posture allowing me to move out and assume map control.
The real problem with harassing with ravens is their speed and how they dont really deal damage until you have them in masses. And when will that happen? Works only if your opponent doesn't have any air units at all. I believe you can do much better investments for harassment.
Edit: Sorry, of course ment ravens and not reapers.
I tried this 2 times against a good friend who is diamond P and was totally owned by immortal / stalkers with blink.
I mean I did exactly the same but i just got badly owned in my own base by blink and immortals. I don't think it is really viable against good Ps... I mean, your replays were against Ps with 40 and 50 apms, a bio push would have crushed them easily.
On August 13 2010 06:32 GGLCheck wrote: I tried this 2 times against a good friend who is diamond P and was totally owned by immortal / stalkers with blink.
I mean I did exactly the same but i just got badly owned in my own base by blink and immortals. I don't think it is really viable against good Ps... I mean, your replays were against Ps with 40 and 50 apms, a bio push would have crushed them easily.
I am skeptical about this strat, really...
lol you're toss friend may be in diamond, but obviously, you're not..
I have a 95% win rate vs toss with this..the ones where i lose are the ones where they 4 gate rush me....
give it a serious try, it works really well for me, dunno why it shouldn't for you
With a lot more heavy stalker and Void ray builds, with the 1/1/1 raven opening I've rearranged things a bit. It's essentially the same as building a viking first before the raven, but since you don't need the tech lab immediately to do that you can get the first siege tank faster at the same time.
I haven't done heavy analysis on it yet. After the tech lab on the factory, go for a siege tank right away, instead of lifting and making another tech lab. The siege tank behind a wall always makes holding a wall against stalker pressure much easier. When the starport finishes, make a viking first. Even if there isn't stargate tech, the viking makes a good scout and isn't a total waste as it can be landed. When the siege tank is done, the factory can then make a second tech lab, and the starport can then make a raven like normal.
On August 13 2010 06:32 GGLCheck wrote: I tried this 2 times against a good friend who is diamond P and was totally owned by immortal / stalkers with blink.
I mean I did exactly the same but i just got badly owned in my own base by blink and immortals. I don't think it is really viable against good Ps... I mean, your replays were against Ps with 40 and 50 apms, a bio push would have crushed them easily.
I am skeptical about this strat, really...
lol you're toss friend may be in diamond, but obviously, you're not..
I have a 95% win rate vs toss with this..the ones where i lose are the ones where they 4 gate rush me....
give it a serious try, it works really well for me, dunno why it shouldn't for you
I have 60% win against my friend however I was a bit tired yesterday and need to give a more serious try for sure, however my first feeling (hey, I m just telling what I feel :p ):
- what if he goes stalker heavy on 3 / 4 gates and blink up the cliffs or into the tanks ? You will definately lose lots of units... - this build just let the P expand freely because you seriously lack mobility, letting him expand with warp gates will let some timing windows wide open for him because he can outpop you easily - what s the point of this build since bio push, like done by Strelok or Sjow for instance, will instamurder any P if the T do bad ? - this strat just lacks mobility... Void rays are not a pb, but blink, for me, is...
On the second game against him, I will find the replay at my home, he just jumped onto my cliff with 8 stalkers, kill the 2 tanks in a second, and jump back in my natural where my tank were. Another pack of 3 immortals and 3 stalkers was here supporting... I was unable to get a clear shot with EMP and he just blinked when I put down ADD... Tanks blasted themselves...
On August 13 2010 06:18 Sorkoas wrote: The real problem with harassing with ravens is their speed and how they dont really deal damage until you have them in masses. And when will that happen? Works only if your opponent doesn't have any air units at all. I believe you can do much better investments for harassment.
Edit: Sorry, of course ment ravens and not reapers.
How many ravens do you need to sneak up and plant one autoturret? You will of course be moving away the instant it is cast.
The whole point of harassment is to attack where his army is not present, otherwise even dropping four helions would do nothing.
On August 13 2010 06:32 GGLCheck wrote: I tried this 2 times against a good friend who is diamond P and was totally owned by immortal / stalkers with blink.
I mean I did exactly the same but i just got badly owned in my own base by blink and immortals. I don't think it is really viable against good Ps... I mean, your replays were against Ps with 40 and 50 apms, a bio push would have crushed them easily.
I am skeptical about this strat, really...
lol you're toss friend may be in diamond, but obviously, you're not..
I have a 95% win rate vs toss with this..the ones where i lose are the ones where they 4 gate rush me....
give it a serious try, it works really well for me, dunno why it shouldn't for you
I have 60% win against my friend however I was a bit tired yesterday and need to give a more serious try for sure, however my first feeling (hey, I m just telling what I feel :p ):
- what if he goes stalker heavy on 3 / 4 gates and blink up the cliffs or into the tanks ? You will definately lose lots of units... - this build just let the P expand freely because you seriously lack mobility, letting him expand with warp gates will let some timing windows wide open for him because he can outpop you easily - what s the point of this build since bio push, like done by Strelok or Sjow for instance, will instamurder any P if the T do bad ? - this strat just lacks mobility... Void rays are not a pb, but blink, for me, is...
On the second game against him, I will find the replay at my home, he just jumped onto my cliff with 8 stalkers, kill the 2 tanks in a second, and jump back in my natural where my tank were. Another pack of 3 immortals and 3 stalkers was here supporting... I was unable to get a clear shot with EMP and he just blinked when I put down ADD... Tanks blasted themselves...
Pdd is vital against stalkers with blink. It makes blinking into your tanks useless, and they can't run away or most of them will die on the way out. If they are still going stalkers late game, i think it might be useful to get another raven.
On August 13 2010 06:32 GGLCheck wrote: I tried this 2 times against a good friend who is diamond P and was totally owned by immortal / stalkers with blink.
I mean I did exactly the same but i just got badly owned in my own base by blink and immortals. I don't think it is really viable against good Ps... I mean, your replays were against Ps with 40 and 50 apms, a bio push would have crushed them easily.
I am skeptical about this strat, really...
lol you're toss friend may be in diamond, but obviously, you're not..
I have a 95% win rate vs toss with this..the ones where i lose are the ones where they 4 gate rush me....
give it a serious try, it works really well for me, dunno why it shouldn't for you
I have 60% win against my friend however I was a bit tired yesterday and need to give a more serious try for sure, however my first feeling (hey, I m just telling what I feel :p ):
- what if he goes stalker heavy on 3 / 4 gates and blink up the cliffs or into the tanks ? You will definately lose lots of units... - this build just let the P expand freely because you seriously lack mobility, letting him expand with warp gates will let some timing windows wide open for him because he can outpop you easily - what s the point of this build since bio push, like done by Strelok or Sjow for instance, will instamurder any P if the T do bad ? - this strat just lacks mobility... Void rays are not a pb, but blink, for me, is...
On the second game against him, I will find the replay at my home, he just jumped onto my cliff with 8 stalkers, kill the 2 tanks in a second, and jump back in my natural where my tank were. Another pack of 3 immortals and 3 stalkers was here supporting... I was unable to get a clear shot with EMP and he just blinked when I put down ADD... Tanks blasted themselves...
well, blink stalkers should not be an issue, really...you have pdd...and if the game goes past your initial push of 3-4 tanks, 1 raven, 1-2 banshee (or viking), and marines, then you need to getting more ravens and start adding ghosts...
Late game I usually have a bunch of banshees and 3 or 4 ravens, and i go around harassing with that, while my main army is at home defending my expos...
the ravens can pdd if there are cannons, and the banshees destroy all the probes, and then back out, repeat with other expos..I usually move out when i have about 4 or 5 ghosts that are fully charged, then start moving out...
usually by this time, a good toss will have an army that counters mine perfectly, with immos to kill tanks, a few colossi to destroy marines, and chargelots for tanks and rines, but with emp and ravens (pdd or autoturrets), i almost always win the fight 1-sidedly..
sometimes if i see the toss going for chargelots right away, i replace marines with helions with preigniter...but in this case i have to go vikings instead of banshees, and use the helions to harass, since i don't have banshees...
Also, with proper use of a sensor tower or two, this build is almost unbeatable...
Its not that toss has nothing they can do, its just that the things they have to do to win are ridiculously hard....OR they can just 4 gate rush, and win...
so, basically, i'm saying blink stalkers shouldn't be too much of an issue 0_0
My favorite way to counter blink stalkers is to put up a sensor tower in my main along the blink susceptible edge. That way you know which direction they will be blinking from and reposition your army accordingly. Also if you have an early Raven like this build does or open ghost marine you can snipe the observers that P will need for high ground vision; if you're quick you can sometimes snipe the observer as he moves into blinking position leaving his stalkers vulnerable below your cliff as your units eat them.
One more quick point about blink stalkers; keep your tanks spread out; don't just clump them together. If you let him blink on top of your tanks, you will lose 4 seconds of anti-armor damage, which is forever in Starcraft time. If he does catch your tanks clumped and you suspect that he is going to blink, unsiege immediately; unsieged tanks do surprisingly well vs stalkers.
Really, tanks are one of the best ways for Terran to punish Protoss for vesting heavily into stalkers.
Ok I m proud to say that I brought my winning ratio back to 60 % :D
The difficult fact was to adapt to this build that is much more tactical than timed like bio, and it's also funnier because you have plenty way to harass.
Fact resided in unit placement, thanks for your help. I even won a game without attacking, just harassing and letting him getting slaughtered trying to desperatly attack. He even said than T is imba :p
I put 2 towers up my cliff to early scout and avoid prism / DTs. If he tries DT he is pretty much owned by its cost. I also put 2 or 3 rines along the cliff allowing the tanks to take free cheap shots at his army if he tries to blink.
Banshees are a great add to destroy zealots along with igniter helions. I just have to take care of all my moves, need marines to kill obs if I spot them with raven.
Yeah it's pretty funny how frustrated Toss players get if they can't break this early. There is no solid counter that is readily available, so they either try to outmass you, or do a slow tech to air. You have to be ready for mass chargelots / HTs though, need to be able to replace your hellions quickly; I drop a 2nd reactored factory once he upgrades charge.
This build is solid but really requires superb execution and defense if the P is aggressive. If you make a single mistake P will just roll you easily. And in late game even if you crush their army they can reproduce easily with their warp gates and 3-4 base. Plus its super hard to fight off a transition to void rays. Any solutions to this?
On August 17 2010 03:23 Dante08 wrote: This build is solid but really requires superb execution and defense if the P is aggressive. If you make a single mistake P will just roll you easily. And in late game even if you crush their army they can reproduce easily with their warp gates and 3-4 base. Plus its super hard to fight off a transition to void rays. Any solutions to this?
Well, regarding lategame, if it gets that far, you quite literally will crush his army with minimal losses, so dealing with warpgates isn't a big issue. Also, you want to be 3x nuking some of those bases and warpgates and keeping their probe count down with hellions. Obviously if you leave him 5k minerals and 15 gates, you are gonna have to some issues..
As far as a transition to void rays, that's something that takes time. You should already have a reactor and a starport, link them and add another starport, building a 2nd reactor with another building. EMP + vikings + marines + a thor or 2 should let you push into his base with your tanks/hellions and end it.
I actually faced a protoss the other day who did exceptionally well against this build by going FE into alot of HT's who would basically feedback pretty much all my units with energy and oneshot them (all banshees and ravens), and then pop one storm on the tank line, and then move in with 1-2 immortals and a buttload of zealots. That hurt.
My only question about this strategy is why do Protoss players feel the need to attack it? Why not just take more bases and macro, and run circles around the mech army with backstabs, drops, etc?
What kind of tactics can the Ghost-Mech player use that make this kind of Protoss response ineffective?
On August 17 2010 23:24 SoFFacet wrote: My only question about this strategy is why do Protoss players feel the need to attack it? Why not just take more bases and macro, and run circles around the mech army with backstabs, drops, etc?
What kind of tactics can the Ghost-Mech player use that make this kind of Protoss response ineffective?
The issue with mass expanding for the Protoss player is that the Terran has so many tactics with which to harass. Banshees, ravens, hellions, and nukes are all really easy to obtain and the Terran can afford to split his forces a bit to harass because tanks are so cost efficient at defending. Backstabs and drops tend to be pretty weak against Terrans playing this strategy because they typically have little space to defend because they don't mass expand.
It is true that terran has many options for harass but all of those options are shut down by a couple of cannons + warp in. The most reliable option may actually be a lot of reapers with speed as they can take down cannons/buildings very fast, but I don't know if there is any room for them as they are quite costly.
But I would definitely like to see some non cheesy reaper build in TvP as they are also very good against zealots (who are very hard to deal with). Maybe some 4 rax MMR timing push? That seems nice since reapers can enter the base from behind and force P to split his army.
I'm top 5 in my gold league and trying hard to establish a solid TvP strategy/build to advance. Last night I thought I'd give this ghost mech a shot.
My question is how to deal with the possibility of this proxy 2 gate cheese without compromising the ghost mech build. If I alter the build so that I get the second depot (to finish the wall) before the first gas, will I be screwing up the tech timings significantly?
Basically, this cheese is so prevalent in my level of play that I can't develop a legit TvP strategy without first considering how to wall immediately and then transition into a regular build if proxy doesn't happen.
I've had a lot of sucess with this build against protoss. But one protoss I faced, got Blink Stalkers right fromt he beginning. On Lost Temple, the susceptible cliff to Blink is so big and he harassed my main like crazy. Any advice?
Also, it doesn't really work for me all the time on all maps. On maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, it's fine, but on something like Blistering Sands, with a backdoor, I have a lot of trouble with the lack of mobility. So similar problem to the Blink Stalkers.
On August 20 2010 11:02 jamvng wrote: I've had a lot of sucess with this build against protoss. But one protoss I faced, got Blink Stalkers right fromt he beginning. On Lost Temple, the susceptible cliff to Blink is so big and he harassed my main like crazy. Any advice?
Also, it doesn't really work for me all the time on all maps. On maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, it's fine, but on something like Blistering Sands, with a backdoor, I have a lot of trouble with the lack of mobility. So similar problem to the Blink Stalkers.
I'm only 600 point diamond so this technique might not work for higher skill levels, but building more ravens have helped me. I try to make the number of ravens proportionate to the number of stalkers.
Hey avilo, what do you think about this build in the new patch, are you still gonna use it or is it completely useless now?
On August 20 2010 11:02 jamvng wrote: I've had a lot of sucess with this build against protoss. But one protoss I faced, got Blink Stalkers right fromt he beginning. On Lost Temple, the susceptible cliff to Blink is so big and he harassed my main like crazy. Any advice?
Also, it doesn't really work for me all the time on all maps. On maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, it's fine, but on something like Blistering Sands, with a backdoor, I have a lot of trouble with the lack of mobility. So similar problem to the Blink Stalkers.
I'm only 600 point diamond so this technique might not work for higher skill levels, but building more ravens have helped me. I try to make the number of ravens proportionate to the number of stalkers.
Hey avilo, what do you think about this build in the new patch, are you still gonna use it or is it completely useless now?
Yah I wanted to ask the same thing about the 1.1 patch. I personally think it's still viable. The only unit it affects is the zealot. You're making tons of hellions anyways it should be fine. Plus 35 dmg with splash is still tons, especially since zealots clump like crazy in this game.
Just look at BW (where the tank did 35 damage against zealots too, I think zealots had 10 more life too), vulture tank did fine against mass zealot. In SC2, we have smarter AI (no overkill), and better splash. Hellion has splash too. I would think the tank nerf doesn't affect this build too much.
THANK YOU!!!!!! Protoss's are starting to figure out how to destroy Bio+Ghosts. I've been looking for a way to mech. I used to standard a thor push vs toss as most were just spamming stalkers and thors do a great job vs stalkers, but it doesnt always work and is kinda an all in. I like this mech+ghost play. I will be trying this out for sure as I have been getting massacred by storms lately.
EDIT: About blink stalkers, they need sight to blink up so you can prevent that by building turrets. Sometimes I get the +1 range for turrets too, expecially if I plan on turtling.
On September 01 2010 09:53 Techno wrote: THANK YOU!!!!!! Protoss's are starting to figure out how to destroy Bio+Ghosts. I've been looking for a way to mech. I used to standard a thor push vs toss as most were just spamming stalkers and thors do a great job vs stalkers, but it doesnt always work and is kinda an all in. I like this mech+ghost play. I will be trying this out for sure as I have been getting massacred by storms lately.
EDIT: About blink stalkers, they need sight to blink up so you can prevent that by building turrets. Sometimes I get the +1 range for turrets too, expecially if I plan on turtling.
About the Blink Stalkers, I've found that I don't like getting turrets everywhere until I have a 2nd base up and running, it cost too much to do that. If they rush Blink Stalkers, you can defend it find if you react fast (use marines and siege tanks in main, don't leave front undefended though) and not let them kill too many SCVs. Once you get your 3rd up and continue harassing, you're golden to win the game.
I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make.
I find this a lot harder to play against than bio, just because of how difficult it is to actually handle the Terran's army in the field. Yes, there are mobility issues, but being able to harass with hellions and ravens can put a dent in P's superior base count, as well as how easily P can move around.
Most of my wins vs very mech heavy play has been in SC1 style (carriers are a useful talent and all that), and that's not the most reliable sort of transition.
On August 20 2010 11:02 jamvng wrote: I've had a lot of sucess with this build against protoss. But one protoss I faced, got Blink Stalkers right fromt he beginning. On Lost Temple, the susceptible cliff to Blink is so big and he harassed my main like crazy. Any advice?
Also, it doesn't really work for me all the time on all maps. On maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, it's fine, but on something like Blistering Sands, with a backdoor, I have a lot of trouble with the lack of mobility. So similar problem to the Blink Stalkers.
I'm only 600 point diamond so this technique might not work for higher skill levels, but building more ravens have helped me. I try to make the number of ravens proportionate to the number of stalkers.
Hey avilo, what do you think about this build in the new patch, are you still gonna use it or is it completely useless now?
Yah I wanted to ask the same thing about the 1.1 patch. I personally think it's still viable. The only unit it affects is the zealot. You're making tons of hellions anyways it should be fine. Plus 35 dmg with splash is still tons, especially since zealots clump like crazy in this game.
Just look at BW (where the tank did 35 damage against zealots too, I think zealots had 10 more life too), vulture tank did fine against mass zealot. In SC2, we have smarter AI (no overkill), and better splash. Hellion has splash too. I would think the tank nerf doesn't affect this build too much.
Archons will take so many shots though, maybe that will counter this build now.
On August 20 2010 11:02 jamvng wrote: I've had a lot of sucess with this build against protoss. But one protoss I faced, got Blink Stalkers right fromt he beginning. On Lost Temple, the susceptible cliff to Blink is so big and he harassed my main like crazy. Any advice?
Also, it doesn't really work for me all the time on all maps. On maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, it's fine, but on something like Blistering Sands, with a backdoor, I have a lot of trouble with the lack of mobility. So similar problem to the Blink Stalkers.
I'm only 600 point diamond so this technique might not work for higher skill levels, but building more ravens have helped me. I try to make the number of ravens proportionate to the number of stalkers.
Hey avilo, what do you think about this build in the new patch, are you still gonna use it or is it completely useless now?
Yah I wanted to ask the same thing about the 1.1 patch. I personally think it's still viable. The only unit it affects is the zealot. You're making tons of hellions anyways it should be fine. Plus 35 dmg with splash is still tons, especially since zealots clump like crazy in this game.
Just look at BW (where the tank did 35 damage against zealots too, I think zealots had 10 more life too), vulture tank did fine against mass zealot. In SC2, we have smarter AI (no overkill), and better splash. Hellion has splash too. I would think the tank nerf doesn't affect this build too much.
Archons will take so many shots though, maybe that will counter this build now.
It's hard to say until we have real testing, because, Archons are super gas intensive (cutting into Stalker/Immortal production), you would need a lot of archons to tank the # of tanks the Terran should have by the time you get Archons.
Plus the EMPs that Terran should have, 100 AOE dmg is a lot.
On September 01 2010 11:46 Techno wrote: Hey man. I really want to watch your replays but I keep getting the "unable to open replay" bullshit. I tried googling it to no avail. Any ideas?
It's cuz the replays were from the beta. Anyone have recent replays? The ones I have are pretty old, and some I played vs. pretty crappy players. (and I'm pretty lazy to put them up =P) Plus, I don't think I'm good enough for people to be learning from me. I got a lot to fix in my play.
But I do want to note that even with my crappy play, this playstyle works in 700 diamond. I can only imagine with someone better, it would be fine even in 1000.
I feel the tank nerf really affects this strat, but it may still be viable if you adjust your play accordingly. Btw I feel blizzard should really change the cost and food supply of the tank back to what it was in sc1 since they're nerfing the damage by so much. Tanks cost 150/100/2 in sc1
On September 01 2010 11:57 Floophead_III wrote: I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make.
On September 01 2010 11:57 Floophead_III wrote: I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make.
Glad you've come to your senses.
Well it was more a result of finding out that skymech is better. It's not so much that ghostmech is bad, it's just not the best solution. I still think a biomech transition from bio into a style more closely resembling ghostmech is extremely strong. I also think that ghostmech style openings into skymech or biomech transitions are very strong, especially because of the defensive strength of any mech build. It's very easy to take an expansion and hold it.
What concerns me the most is that terran really only appears to have 4 options, and 2 have been pretty much exhausted at this point as deadend strategies.
Pure bio doesn't work vs colossi or storm/immo/chargelot. It just reaches a point of ineffectiveness. Pure ghostmech has too many issues with adaptivity and can't be aggressive enough.
Which leaves us with skymech and biomech. Right now the natural progression from 2/3 rax openings seems to be into biomech, and the natural progression from factory openings seems to be either biomech or skymech. With the emerging 2 base protoss style, I think we'll see a pretty dramatic shift in TvP metagame soon.
I've been practising a build vs protoss pretty similar to the one you described. I have not yet actually made ghosts in the matchup yet, but maybe that is something to keep in mind around the time i take my third base.
supply->
refinery->
rax->
factory ->
rax tech lab ASAP (at this point you may need to make marine first to get probe out)->
(...wall in should be done by now on most maps)
swap fact to tech lab and make hellion + preignitor(rally inside your base so he thinks you're making a tank ->
rally second hellion outside your base, start a tank, finish marine (make them constantly) and temporarily lift rax to let the other hellion out. gogo do a runby hellion harass if possible
(preignitor should finish just as you start attacking his probes, it's pretty awesome timing on most maps, some p's block ramp so if he does just pull back a bit and moniter movement outside his base, you may or may not need to bunker up at this time)
get siege mode, make a supply depot, make a starport make a command centre, make engineering bay
(make 2 more hellions if the other ones got in and died)
make a dropship and drop hellions in his base, immediately add tech lab to the starport (you could even have the barracks make the tech lab for the starport if you want)
MAKE A BANSHEE THEN A RAVEN (if hes not doing void rays/warp prism, otherwise make a viking(s))
turn the command centre into an orbital, lift the rax down to the choke and put a bunker there, take both gases and put further supply depots in the choke (to block incoming forces) turret up as needed (to hold off observer + blink cuteness/phoenixes/warp prisms/void rays/dt's)
transfer scv's
throw down another factory and then like 4-5 barracks and start spamming marines(get combat shields and stim asap). add 2 more factories as you get gas(1 with tech lab, 1 with reactory, and get whatever ebay upgrade you want (+1 dmg or +1 turret/planetary range)
keep constant tank/hellion/marine production, throw down a third command center and start moving out with your raven.
get another starport with a reactor on it for vikings/medivac while the other one makes ravens/banshees
usually i just upgrade weapons for the marines and the tanks, since the only thing that can possibly mess me up is storm and that ignores armor (i believe). stimpacked marines usually rape immortals, tanks + marines rape stalkers, hellions rape zealots. collosus makes the protoss not have enough bulk to defend against me and the tanks just blow him apart (+ whos gonna keep making collosi vs a terran with ability to make vikings)
but yea you can have a lot of fun harassing and dropping and then doom-pushing while gobbling up all the expansions. fun times making nerds rage at their keyboards.
oh ya, make sensor towers and dont skimp on turrets when they will save your ass
On September 01 2010 11:57 Floophead_III wrote: I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make.
Glad you've come to your senses.
Well it was more a result of finding out that skymech is better. It's not so much that ghostmech is bad, it's just not the best solution. I still think a biomech transition from bio into a style more closely resembling ghostmech is extremely strong. I also think that ghostmech style openings into skymech or biomech transitions are very strong, especially because of the defensive strength of any mech build. It's very easy to take an expansion and hold it.
What concerns me the most is that terran really only appears to have 4 options, and 2 have been pretty much exhausted at this point as deadend strategies.
Pure bio doesn't work vs colossi or storm/immo/chargelot. It just reaches a point of ineffectiveness. Pure ghostmech has too many issues with adaptivity and can't be aggressive enough.
Which leaves us with skymech and biomech. Right now the natural progression from 2/3 rax openings seems to be into biomech, and the natural progression from factory openings seems to be either biomech or skymech. With the emerging 2 base protoss style, I think we'll see a pretty dramatic shift in TvP metagame soon.
Of course I could be completely wrong too. =P
You make it sound like terran doesn't have that many options...which I would probably say that Terran has the most variety in terms of unit compositions/strategies.
I wouldn't agree with bio and ghostmech being "unviable" either. I could see what you mean though if you meant biomech/skymech are more "effective" atm, but that doesn't mean that pure bio or pure mech aren't viable.
On September 01 2010 11:57 Floophead_III wrote: I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make.
Glad you've come to your senses.
Well it was more a result of finding out that skymech is better. It's not so much that ghostmech is bad, it's just not the best solution. I still think a biomech transition from bio into a style more closely resembling ghostmech is extremely strong. I also think that ghostmech style openings into skymech or biomech transitions are very strong, especially because of the defensive strength of any mech build. It's very easy to take an expansion and hold it.
What concerns me the most is that terran really only appears to have 4 options, and 2 have been pretty much exhausted at this point as deadend strategies.
Pure bio doesn't work vs colossi or storm/immo/chargelot. It just reaches a point of ineffectiveness. Pure ghostmech has too many issues with adaptivity and can't be aggressive enough.
Which leaves us with skymech and biomech. Right now the natural progression from 2/3 rax openings seems to be into biomech, and the natural progression from factory openings seems to be either biomech or skymech. With the emerging 2 base protoss style, I think we'll see a pretty dramatic shift in TvP metagame soon.
Of course I could be completely wrong too. =P
You make it sound like terran doesn't have that many options...which I would probably say that Terran has the most variety in terms of unit compositions/strategies.
I wouldn't agree with bio and ghostmech being "unviable" either. I could see what you mean though if you meant biomech/skymech are more "effective" atm, but that doesn't mean that pure bio or pure mech aren't viable.
I only am talking about lategame, when protoss gets his tech out and has his 3rd up. My problems are not earlygame, nor in the 2 base vs 2 base metagame. However if you don't kill/cripple toss and the game is forced longer into a 3 base vs 3 base game, bio loses a lot of its strength, and mech's immobility starts to really hurt you. You're just not going to win direct confrontations with protoss with pure bio or be able to defend all your expansions and pressure with mech at that point.
I have had some good success with biomech, since hellions do a good job of sniping HTs, harassing expos, and killing zealots. Tanks do well to hold down key positions and in general just do a ton of damage. However you're not so immobile that if you get caught out of position you lose right there, and you have dropships for continued harass.
Skymech has done well for me but I still run into serious issues vs storm as the game goes longer. It's also so gas heavy and there is no mineral sink so you're forced into making marines (useless vs storm) or hellions (not terribly strong vs stalkers which are the bulk of the protoss army). There's just no synergy.
It's a bizarre matchup, and I really don't like the way it plays at the moment.
On September 01 2010 11:57 Floophead_III wrote: I've fallen out of favor with this playstyle for everyone's information. It takes too long to rebuild a useful mech army lategame and because tanks are 3 food you can't even get a reasonably stronger army thanks to immortals. The lack of a useful mineral sink (cause honestly, hellions aren't good vs anything not zealot/sentry/ht/dt/probe) is also difficult to deal with. Vultures had way more utility.
I've been favoring starports nowadays vs protoss. Banshees are overpowered and vikings are great too. BCs are freaking awesome (though nerfbat will make them a little less so). I think that having good infantry/mech support is essential, but starport units are too good vs protoss to not make.
Glad you've come to your senses.
Well it was more a result of finding out that skymech is better. It's not so much that ghostmech is bad, it's just not the best solution. I still think a biomech transition from bio into a style more closely resembling ghostmech is extremely strong. I also think that ghostmech style openings into skymech or biomech transitions are very strong, especially because of the defensive strength of any mech build. It's very easy to take an expansion and hold it.
What concerns me the most is that terran really only appears to have 4 options, and 2 have been pretty much exhausted at this point as deadend strategies.
Pure bio doesn't work vs colossi or storm/immo/chargelot. It just reaches a point of ineffectiveness. Pure ghostmech has too many issues with adaptivity and can't be aggressive enough.
Which leaves us with skymech and biomech. Right now the natural progression from 2/3 rax openings seems to be into biomech, and the natural progression from factory openings seems to be either biomech or skymech. With the emerging 2 base protoss style, I think we'll see a pretty dramatic shift in TvP metagame soon.
Of course I could be completely wrong too. =P
You make it sound like terran doesn't have that many options...which I would probably say that Terran has the most variety in terms of unit compositions/strategies.
I wouldn't agree with bio and ghostmech being "unviable" either. I could see what you mean though if you meant biomech/skymech are more "effective" atm, but that doesn't mean that pure bio or pure mech aren't viable.
I only am talking about lategame, when protoss gets his tech out and has his 3rd up. My problems are not earlygame, nor in the 2 base vs 2 base metagame. However if you don't kill/cripple toss and the game is forced longer into a 3 base vs 3 base game, bio loses a lot of its strength, and mech's immobility starts to really hurt you. You're just not going to win direct confrontations with protoss with pure bio or be able to defend all your expansions and pressure with mech at that point.
I have had some good success with biomech, since hellions do a good job of sniping HTs, harassing expos, and killing zealots. Tanks do well to hold down key positions and in general just do a ton of damage. However you're not so immobile that if you get caught out of position you lose right there, and you have dropships for continued harass.
Skymech has done well for me but I still run into serious issues vs storm as the game goes longer. It's also so gas heavy and there is no mineral sink so you're forced into making marines (useless vs storm) or hellions (not terribly strong vs stalkers which are the bulk of the protoss army). There's just no synergy.
It's a bizarre matchup, and I really don't like the way it plays at the moment.
I guess I see what you mean. When Toss gets T3, MMM isn't as strong. But people use it still because of it's versatility and mobility. You can drop here and there, and reinforce super fast with bio. Not to mention it's really cost effective even vs storm if you stim micro well. (***I personally don't like bio that much, but I know it's viable, hence the massive use of it in most TvP matches)
Late game, I can still see mech working, especially with maps where you can split the map in half with tanks (use sensor towers and turrets also) and slow push. Especially since most of the maps are so small. It's so easy to do on say Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, etc.
On September 24 2010 03:55 ScienceRob wrote: You just have to react properly to it. Especially with the decrease of seige mode to light units this strat might as well be declared dead.
Sarens (the guy that barely lost 2-3 to IdrA) did this strategy against a friend of mine yesterday.
Is this strategy relevant anymore with all the developments of the modern age? I've still been trying to do it but it requires an immense amount of patience...
EPT![[image loading]](http://pnmedia.gamespy.com/screenshots/pstarcraft/13619354.jpg)
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unless you see you can siege up and win the fight.
) definitely gonna be trying this out, thanks!![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/SaharaDrac/commentarybanner.gif)
even though the content is 4:3
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