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[G] Ghost mech Terran vs Protoss - Page 6

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 17 Next All
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50242 Posts
May 07 2010 08:31 GMT
#101
On May 07 2010 17:17 link0 wrote:
Who cares if what the Koreans are doing. They aren't better than the rest of us...yet.


Although, I do agree that Ravens aren't that important at all. Ghosts can counter DTs already.


but, you can't kill what you can't see.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
May 07 2010 09:03 GMT
#102
If a man can't see, he can't fight.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
May 07 2010 10:59 GMT
#103
ghosts can see DT by using EMP....
PacketOverflow
Profile Joined May 2010
United States80 Posts
May 07 2010 17:45 GMT
#104
The point of the Raven is the PDD which allows the Terran to create an effect similar to Dark Swarm from BW. The Terran can win any given fight against Stalkers with a single cast of the PDD. What's more, if you get surprised by Phoenixes, the PDD actually blocks their shots as well, so you can sit the Raven and Banshees over the PDD while your Marines scare the Phoenixes off and you rush to get out Vikings (any kind of tech switch is extremely easy with this build due to the built in flexibility). With the PDD, the only two units the Protoss has that can attack the Banshees are Sentries and Void Rays. Neither of these units are optimal anti-air units especially with all the marines and tanks around.

When I first watched the replays, I too thought that the Raven was useless and could be skipped, but experience has shown me otherwise. There are only three real ways the Protoss can hold off the ~9 minute mark push. Mass Zealots/Sentries, HTs, or baiting the Terran to cast his PDD at an unimportant location. None of these methods will outright ruin the Terran, and the only result of stopping the push is turning the game into an extended macro game.
Fight or flight? Yeah, right.
NightOne
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada215 Posts
May 07 2010 17:50 GMT
#105
if u see a zealot sentry mix.. instead of pdd.. throw down 2 turrets on ur front line.. they are beefy tanks as well...
PanzerDragoon
Profile Joined March 2010
United States822 Posts
May 07 2010 18:01 GMT
#106
How the hell do you get gas for 2 facs pumping tanks, a rax pumping ghosts, and a starport pumping ravens? I saw nothing about expansion timing, but I'd have to imagine you need a 2nd base pretty early to start pumping.
PacketOverflow
Profile Joined May 2010
United States80 Posts
May 07 2010 18:13 GMT
#107
The general timing for expansion is right as you start the push. Before the expansion and push, you don't have two Factories. You have one Factory, one Starport, and one Barracks (with two Tech Labs and one Reactor to switch around as necessary). Before your expansion, you're making tanks, Banshees, and Marines. You do not "pump" Ravens, but rather get one or two to support your army with Terran Dark Swarm (PDD). The build is very very light on your minerals. So much so in fact that while pumping all these units and depots, you can afford to use scans to see what you need to adapt to and still be able to expand after the second banshee/third tank (the push timing).
Fight or flight? Yeah, right.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9392 Posts
May 07 2010 19:51 GMT
#108
From my experience, you shoud push around the 10 min map with 1-2 tank, 1 banshee and 1 raven and a lots of marines. Hellions IMO seems to weak, and I would prefer having twice as many marines (esp. with 10+ health upgrade) instead of hellions. Only expeptions is perhaps if he went mass zealots, however that almost never happens. Ghosts should only be used as a counter to HT.

IMO this build is extremely overpowered. When I first started SC2 I tried MMM against protoss, but it worked terrible, and I lost all the time. However with this build I am like 20-4 against protoss. 1 time I lost to proxygate. Another time due to a lot of lag, and 2 other times I just made bad misclicks that costed me the game.
I dont think protoss really can counter this build, and when ppl start using this instead of MMM blizzards is going to realize how esp. tanks are overpowered vs protoss and prob. give them a little nerf. I have absolute no idea why they gave them an health upgrade in the last patch.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
May 07 2010 20:07 GMT
#109
On May 08 2010 04:51 Hider wrote:
From my experience, you shoud push around the 10 min map with 1-2 tank, 1 banshee and 1 raven and a lots of marines. Hellions IMO seems to weak, and I would prefer having twice as many marines (esp. with 10+ health upgrade) instead of hellions. Only expeptions is perhaps if he went mass zealots, however that almost never happens. Ghosts should only be used as a counter to HT.

IMO this build is extremely overpowered. When I first started SC2 I tried MMM against protoss, but it worked terrible, and I lost all the time. However with this build I am like 20-4 against protoss. 1 time I lost to proxygate. Another time due to a lot of lag, and 2 other times I just made bad misclicks that costed me the game.
I dont think protoss really can counter this build, and when ppl start using this instead of MMM blizzards is going to realize how esp. tanks are overpowered vs protoss and prob. give them a little nerf. I have absolute no idea why they gave them an health upgrade in the last patch.


The build is no where near overpowered, and it's far from autowin, just like 2gate robo from protoss, or even 4 gate/5gate are far from autowin now.

It is just a strong opening build, and a pretty strong follow up plan. Of course after the raven opening you do not have to go ghost mech, you can go back into mass barracks marauder, thor bio, airmech, or even try what gretorp is doing with marine mass + ghost, which you will have the raven in there for use too.

Just depends on the map and what you like doing I do not ghost mech every game, but I have done it quite a bit, so that is what the guide is for

as for Protoss having trouble with it, I do not think that is the case at highest level, it puts you on even footing, and if you are better or play better than your opponent than you can get an advantage, but that goes for all builds and strategies.

just think like years ago in SC1, do not know if you played, but remember when midas and all those Terrans were first doing the "FD openings?" Many Protoss literally died to just the opening because it was something completely and utterly new.

Same goes for SC2 beta, when people find new effective things some players are gonna die to them just from not having played against it before. First time I played versus nony's phoenix build, I died to it because it was the first time playing it.

Of course if you see some new strategy or strange thing your opponent is doing in-game, you do your best to adjust how you theoretically think you should in the game, but you are not always successful on the first try in countering something, so it takes a few more games against a strategy to feel comfortable versus it, and develop an efficient counter.
Sup
Sublimis
Profile Joined May 2009
Sweden70 Posts
May 07 2010 20:13 GMT
#110
On May 08 2010 04:51 Hider wrote:
From my experience, you shoud push around the 10 min map with 1-2 tank, 1 banshee and 1 raven and a lots of marines. Hellions IMO seems to weak, and I would prefer having twice as many marines (esp. with 10+ health upgrade) instead of hellions. Only expeptions is perhaps if he went mass zealots, however that almost never happens. Ghosts should only be used as a counter to HT.

IMO this build is extremely overpowered. When I first started SC2 I tried MMM against protoss, but it worked terrible, and I lost all the time. However with this build I am like 20-4 against protoss. 1 time I lost to proxygate. Another time due to a lot of lag, and 2 other times I just made bad misclicks that costed me the game.
I dont think protoss really can counter this build, and when ppl start using this instead of MMM blizzards is going to realize how esp. tanks are overpowered vs protoss and prob. give them a little nerf. I have absolute no idea why they gave them an health upgrade in the last patch.


I haven't tried this but I would assume this would get obliterated by a zealot/sentry army with 2-3 stalkers?
Hellhammer
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada144 Posts
May 07 2010 20:29 GMT
#111
On May 07 2010 08:46 whatthemate wrote:
i think the key to beating this sc1 style of TVP play is to rush phoenixes and use the gravitron beam to keep the siege tank count low.

also massing phoenixes can defend against rogue hellions the safest way.

its important for protoss to maintain air superiority or else they will also lose if they attempt to turtle and macro up ahead at same time. i reckon playing Protoss like as if it was ZVT or PVZ in sc1 mode.
void ray are a waste of time.

im theorycrafting that multiple warp prisms are built and scattered across the map ready to harass. loaded with dual immortals taking care of rogue hellions. chrono the forge upgrading ground weapons asap. high templar spam against thor + siege tank.

scatter a few pylons in battlefield with one photon cannon to forge siege mode and then siege transition should be window of opportunity to psi storm.

i reckon once the terran leaves main base, use warp prism and warp few zealots to crush tech labs addons and armory etc. storming a bunch of scvs is what protoss needs to do early on to have any advantage. use guerilla style tactics to punish immoble siege tanks.

hellions will be trying to run back to base to kill of zealots, use sentry force field to block ramp and destroy tech addons.


You can easily make vikings to counter that. How did you not think of that?? Swap starport lab with reactor and you're on your way. You'd probably only need two viking and the marines you already have to get rid of the phoenix. Phoenix poses no threat.

And if you have money to make multiple warp prisms all over the map while terran is either expanding or pushing your nat, good luck! You'll find yourself warping units into your own base to defend.

On May 07 2010 19:59 Markwerf wrote:
ghosts can see DT by using EMP....

You must be really good to hit cloaked dts with emp.

Maybe Avilo should post some reps of him losing with this build and we can see why he lost. I didn't watch all of his rep pack so I don't know if he included any loses in there.
If Jesus comes, kill him again.
EximoSua2
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States216 Posts
May 07 2010 20:30 GMT
#112
I am struggling mightily with this build. I want it to work, but I feel like the marines are too vulnerable or something.
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
May 07 2010 22:03 GMT
#113
mmhh does anyone know if/which upgrade affects auto turret dmg and how high their attack priority is?

seems like armor upgraded turrets could be quite a nice meatshield vs zeal/sentry heavy combos . cause pdd only works against stalkers and HSM doesnt seem worth it for 125 energy.

life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
BeyondCtrL
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden642 Posts
May 07 2010 23:10 GMT
#114
This is an excellent post with comprehensive knowledge.

I watched several of the replays and I completely agree with avilo here that this is indeed a very good opening build that allows for flexible play, but I do not think it's unbeatable or over-powered. In many of the games the Toss players were giving a lot of leeway and/or reacted quite slowly (imho) to avilo's build.

As of right now I think a really good Toss player has a slight advantage over similarly skilled Terrans.
EximoSua2
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States216 Posts
May 08 2010 00:01 GMT
#115
Finally got this strat to work...it makes for LONG but fun games. Will be doing a VOD of it, and give avilo credit for the build. (shoutcaster for sclegacy.com).
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
May 08 2010 00:57 GMT
#116
I wonder how the opening works against a fast robo build. A immortal, sentry, zeal push seems troublesome for this build.
wonksaggin
Profile Joined March 2010
United States73 Posts
May 08 2010 04:30 GMT
#117
^banshees work against that build^

now that sentries are nerfed i don't think they'll be as much as a threat-poser within that unit composition
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
May 08 2010 04:38 GMT
#118
On May 08 2010 09:57 Markwerf wrote:
I wonder how the opening works against a fast robo build. A immortal, sentry, zeal push seems troublesome for this build.


If you open siege with fast ghost + a couple marines (literally 1-3 is fine) you'll decimate an immortal push. It's all about good positioning and having a good EMP. You don't even need to get siege out (in fact it might be better to only siege 1 tank to pummel gateway units from far range.)
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Anxiety
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States650 Posts
May 08 2010 04:43 GMT
#119
I've been FEing into ghosts/mech for a while. and that works extremely well, thors are great vs immortals if you have roughly equal numbers (or you can use ghosts effectively) because of strike cannons, and therefore you can play standard mech vs toss as usual the same way, but the FE allows you to upgrade while pumping units.


Um... if u have equal numbers of thors to immortals and are equal ur losing... cause cost/supply wise ur behind. If u meant something else correct please.
TenSafeFrogs
Profile Joined May 2010
United States54 Posts
May 08 2010 06:52 GMT
#120
I love this build and have been using it to great success in copper bracket (lulz) - got me from high 50's to #1 in two days (how long does it take to get bumped up to bronze?).

Anyway, this seems pretty decent vs. zerg as well with exceptions being mass zerglings (don't see it often, but they pwn the tanks if they make enough) and mass roaches as well.

So I'd like to hear some good players advice on what changes to make to this opening (w/ the raven/banshee/marines/tank) to work better vs. popular zerg builds.
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