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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50898 Posts
On May 07 2010 17:17 link0 wrote: Who cares if what the Koreans are doing. They aren't better than the rest of us...yet. Although, I do agree that Ravens aren't that important at all. Ghosts can counter DTs already. but, you can't kill what you can't see. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
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PacketOverflow
United States80 Posts
When I first watched the replays, I too thought that the Raven was useless and could be skipped, but experience has shown me otherwise. There are only three real ways the Protoss can hold off the ~9 minute mark push. Mass Zealots/Sentries, HTs, or baiting the Terran to cast his PDD at an unimportant location. None of these methods will outright ruin the Terran, and the only result of stopping the push is turning the game into an extended macro game. | ||
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NightOne
Canada215 Posts
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
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PacketOverflow
United States80 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
IMO this build is extremely overpowered. When I first started SC2 I tried MMM against protoss, but it worked terrible, and I lost all the time. However with this build I am like 20-4 against protoss. 1 time I lost to proxygate. Another time due to a lot of lag, and 2 other times I just made bad misclicks that costed me the game. I dont think protoss really can counter this build, and when ppl start using this instead of MMM blizzards is going to realize how esp. tanks are overpowered vs protoss and prob. give them a little nerf. I have absolute no idea why they gave them an health upgrade in the last patch. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On May 08 2010 04:51 Hider wrote: From my experience, you shoud push around the 10 min map with 1-2 tank, 1 banshee and 1 raven and a lots of marines. Hellions IMO seems to weak, and I would prefer having twice as many marines (esp. with 10+ health upgrade) instead of hellions. Only expeptions is perhaps if he went mass zealots, however that almost never happens. Ghosts should only be used as a counter to HT. IMO this build is extremely overpowered. When I first started SC2 I tried MMM against protoss, but it worked terrible, and I lost all the time. However with this build I am like 20-4 against protoss. 1 time I lost to proxygate. Another time due to a lot of lag, and 2 other times I just made bad misclicks that costed me the game. I dont think protoss really can counter this build, and when ppl start using this instead of MMM blizzards is going to realize how esp. tanks are overpowered vs protoss and prob. give them a little nerf. I have absolute no idea why they gave them an health upgrade in the last patch. The build is no where near overpowered, and it's far from autowin, just like 2gate robo from protoss, or even 4 gate/5gate are far from autowin now. It is just a strong opening build, and a pretty strong follow up plan. Of course after the raven opening you do not have to go ghost mech, you can go back into mass barracks marauder, thor bio, airmech, or even try what gretorp is doing with marine mass + ghost, which you will have the raven in there for use too. Just depends on the map and what you like doing  I do not ghost mech every game, but I have done it quite a bit, so that is what the guide is for as for Protoss having trouble with it, I do not think that is the case at highest level, it puts you on even footing, and if you are better or play better than your opponent than you can get an advantage, but that goes for all builds and strategies. just think like years ago in SC1, do not know if you played, but remember when midas and all those Terrans were first doing the "FD openings?" Many Protoss literally died to just the opening because it was something completely and utterly new. Same goes for SC2 beta, when people find new effective things some players are gonna die to them just from not having played against it before. First time I played versus nony's phoenix build, I died to it because it was the first time playing it. Of course if you see some new strategy or strange thing your opponent is doing in-game, you do your best to adjust how you theoretically think you should in the game, but you are not always successful on the first try in countering something, so it takes a few more games against a strategy to feel comfortable versus it, and develop an efficient counter. | ||
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Sublimis
Sweden70 Posts
On May 08 2010 04:51 Hider wrote: From my experience, you shoud push around the 10 min map with 1-2 tank, 1 banshee and 1 raven and a lots of marines. Hellions IMO seems to weak, and I would prefer having twice as many marines (esp. with 10+ health upgrade) instead of hellions. Only expeptions is perhaps if he went mass zealots, however that almost never happens. Ghosts should only be used as a counter to HT. IMO this build is extremely overpowered. When I first started SC2 I tried MMM against protoss, but it worked terrible, and I lost all the time. However with this build I am like 20-4 against protoss. 1 time I lost to proxygate. Another time due to a lot of lag, and 2 other times I just made bad misclicks that costed me the game. I dont think protoss really can counter this build, and when ppl start using this instead of MMM blizzards is going to realize how esp. tanks are overpowered vs protoss and prob. give them a little nerf. I have absolute no idea why they gave them an health upgrade in the last patch. I haven't tried this but I would assume this would get obliterated by a zealot/sentry army with 2-3 stalkers? | ||
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Hellhammer
Canada144 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:46 whatthemate wrote: i think the key to beating this sc1 style of TVP play is to rush phoenixes and use the gravitron beam to keep the siege tank count low. also massing phoenixes can defend against rogue hellions the safest way. its important for protoss to maintain air superiority or else they will also lose if they attempt to turtle and macro up ahead at same time. i reckon playing Protoss like as if it was ZVT or PVZ in sc1 mode. void ray are a waste of time. im theorycrafting that multiple warp prisms are built and scattered across the map ready to harass. loaded with dual immortals taking care of rogue hellions. chrono the forge upgrading ground weapons asap. high templar spam against thor + siege tank. scatter a few pylons in battlefield with one photon cannon to forge siege mode and then siege transition should be window of opportunity to psi storm. i reckon once the terran leaves main base, use warp prism and warp few zealots to crush tech labs addons and armory etc. storming a bunch of scvs is what protoss needs to do early on to have any advantage. use guerilla style tactics to punish immoble siege tanks. hellions will be trying to run back to base to kill of zealots, use sentry force field to block ramp and destroy tech addons. You can easily make vikings to counter that. How did you not think of that?? Swap starport lab with reactor and you're on your way. You'd probably only need two viking and the marines you already have to get rid of the phoenix. Phoenix poses no threat. And if you have money to make multiple warp prisms all over the map while terran is either expanding or pushing your nat, good luck! You'll find yourself warping units into your own base to defend. On May 07 2010 19:59 Markwerf wrote: ghosts can see DT by using EMP.... You must be really good to hit cloaked dts with emp. Maybe Avilo should post some reps of him losing with this build and we can see why he lost. I didn't watch all of his rep pack so I don't know if he included any loses in there. | ||
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EximoSua2
United States216 Posts
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
seems like armor upgraded turrets could be quite a nice meatshield vs zeal/sentry heavy combos . cause pdd only works against stalkers and HSM doesnt seem worth it for 125 energy. | ||
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BeyondCtrL
Sweden642 Posts
I watched several of the replays and I completely agree with avilo here that this is indeed a very good opening build that allows for flexible play, but I do not think it's unbeatable or over-powered. In many of the games the Toss players were giving a lot of leeway and/or reacted quite slowly (imho) to avilo's build. As of right now I think a really good Toss player has a slight advantage over similarly skilled Terrans. | ||
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EximoSua2
United States216 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
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wonksaggin
United States73 Posts
now that sentries are nerfed i don't think they'll be as much as a threat-poser within that unit composition | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On May 08 2010 09:57 Markwerf wrote: I wonder how the opening works against a fast robo build. A immortal, sentry, zeal push seems troublesome for this build. If you open siege with fast ghost + a couple marines (literally 1-3 is fine) you'll decimate an immortal push. It's all about good positioning and having a good EMP. You don't even need to get siege out (in fact it might be better to only siege 1 tank to pummel gateway units from far range.) | ||
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Anxiety
United States650 Posts
I've been FEing into ghosts/mech for a while. and that works extremely well, thors are great vs immortals if you have roughly equal numbers (or you can use ghosts effectively) because of strike cannons, and therefore you can play standard mech vs toss as usual the same way, but the FE allows you to upgrade while pumping units. Um... if u have equal numbers of thors to immortals and are equal ur losing... cause cost/supply wise ur behind. If u meant something else correct please. | ||
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TenSafeFrogs
United States54 Posts
Anyway, this seems pretty decent vs. zerg as well with exceptions being mass zerglings (don't see it often, but they pwn the tanks if they make enough) and mass roaches as well. So I'd like to hear some good players advice on what changes to make to this opening (w/ the raven/banshee/marines/tank) to work better vs. popular zerg builds. | ||
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