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On May 13 2010 11:54 Nadagast wrote:
The Raven helps a ton against any type of gateway push with a PDD, makes you feel super safe from DT openings and you need a quick Starport anyway I think, in case he makes a Stargate.
I'm not convinced that Raven first every time is the right move but it is very good. What I've been doing a lot is opening Rax -> Fact -> Tech Lab on Fact + Starport -> 1 Viking + Tanks and then adding a Lab on the Port and making a Raven while scouting with my Viking
Marines + turrets > voidray. Scan + turrets + EMP > DT. You hurt yourself so much vs 2-3 gate robo and 4-5 gate allins by getting a raven. 325 gas is not worth a PDD. I could get 2 tanks and almost siege too with that.
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I think it's worth it (the fast raven) - but you have to use it correctly. If you waste the PDD then yes, it's a large liability and could cost you the game. You have to know the map and play smart with your tanks + your PDD and then it becomes the thing that wins you the game/battle.
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Oh also, the roach nerf today makes this strat more powerful since roaches were one of its bigger weaknesses.
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although i am playing like shit today, i finally get to see someone make some sense of terran even tho i've been teching against toss since patch 8 haha but no one would listen (only cuz i didn't write a guide because i play more on reaction). thank u tho avilo -- well written guide.
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On May 13 2010 12:15 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 11:54 Nadagast wrote:
The Raven helps a ton against any type of gateway push with a PDD, makes you feel super safe from DT openings and you need a quick Starport anyway I think, in case he makes a Stargate.
I'm not convinced that Raven first every time is the right move but it is very good. What I've been doing a lot is opening Rax -> Fact -> Tech Lab on Fact + Starport -> 1 Viking + Tanks and then adding a Lab on the Port and making a Raven while scouting with my Viking Marines + turrets > voidray. Scan + turrets + EMP > DT. You hurt yourself so much vs 2-3 gate robo and 4-5 gate allins by getting a raven. 325 gas is not worth a PDD. I could get 2 tanks and almost siege too with that.
I think you're undervaluing PDD. Used correctly it can win battles and even entire games. Of course, it can be countered by unit composition (mostly zealot/sentry), but for the most part it counters a majority of the protoss army.
I would value PDD above EMP vs most protoss compositions though. Plus, having starport tech early opens up dropships for hellion harass, banshees for DPS and harass, and vikings for obs sniping/countering colossi or phoenix.
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Excellent guide thanks you! I'll try that for sure
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Definitely gonna try this next TvP. Great guide man.
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I have made a VOD of me using this build, if you guys wanna check it out. It's not the absolute crispest game, and i make mistakes, but the jist of the build is there in action (with commentary!) If Avilo wants, feel free to embed in the OP.
StarCraft Legacy Commentary: SaharaDrac (T) vs, DaEngineer (P):
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/SaharaDrac/commentarybanner.gif)
Part 1:
+ Show Spoiler +
Part2:
+ Show Spoiler +
Part 3:
+ Show Spoiler +
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yea this build is definitely the build to use against toss. i made SO many mistakes for my first time using this build and i still overpowered the protoss army. the PDD really just saves ur butt as eximo says.
a little tip for ur macro problem. instead of constantly producing scvs (which is what i do) -- u can start by making about 20 SCVS and then stop. when u decide to expand and throw down the CC, u can start SCV production again and by the time the CC finishes, u should have about 15 extra scvs (give or take a few) to transfer to ur expo. it's how i started for beginner's macro -- but eventually u want to move to 3-4 base army which u'll need to consistently make SCVS to effectively transfer SCVS to ur 3rd and 4th expos.
once again Avilo...very nice.
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how do u scout with this build?
i find it very hard to scout protoss without tech lab at rax (i stole 1reaper scout build from bratok  )
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use ur scvs that u should be always making...make sensor towers to see where they are. it's covered on the first page. the sensor towers have insane range. when u are pushing -- simply just build a sensor tower like u would a turret. u don't need the turret because u have marines/raven.
this is by far the best build to use against toss yet. no more early dts or pushing with immortals.
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Yeah, but everyone's gonna know about it now and counter it. =(
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On May 15 2010 02:23 EximoSua2 wrote:
Yeah, but everyone's gonna know about it now and counter it. =(
It`s hard to counter because as the terran you have access to all teech and can react appropriately.
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@EximoSua2 Cool videos - but they seem to be 16 even though the content is 4:3
Add this tag to the videos on YouTube: "yt:crop=4:3" (without the quotes) and it will fix it.
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well the protoss can't create new units LOL -- they have zealots, sentries, stalkers, immortals, collosus. i can only see the legit counter being collosus/immortal heavy build but that's asking for 3-4 bases and takes quite a while to transition to where as the marine/tank/raven push should be much much faster than getting those units. void rays maybe but u should have an EMP+marines by then and a few vikings -- not to mention that vikings kill off collosus also. Carriers are not completely out of the question, but u'll need a whole lot of time to do that and considering avilo mentioned that this build requires a lot of scouting -- shouldn't really be losing with this build because once u scout a carrier or starport being build u should know that he has a weak ground force. and if u do see a strong ground force, u should still be able to attack with the unit combo being presented because he won't have enough money to get that strong air anyway.
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I haven't been able to try this yet but it looks promising. The one vulnerability I can imagine is that it would probably get more or less destroyed vs any P with a sizable amount of phoenixes in their army. It's a shame that tanks can be lifted while in siege mode. Fortunately heavy phoenix use doesn't seem very prevalent (at least yet) in this match up.
Looking forward to checking out some of the reps and trying this later for myself. As I've climbed up to the ~1400s in plat I haven't been having too much success just facerolling with marauders, and I agree that massing like that is boring anyway, so if this is truly as solid as it sounds I would love to make it my standard build
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Wanted to chime in and say after using it 3 times today that I really enjoy the build.
It feels good to execute it right and I think it will lead to exciting games when the Protoss properly responses (I think with air moreso than templars, at least in early game).
I didn't use your guide but I came darn close from eyeballing it off a replay. Didn't go into late game unfortunately but my opponents were only about Gold level and didn't look like they knew what to do.
Pushing with tanks is the best 
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I just lost a very intense 200 supply vs 200 supply match because of this build. I blame this thread for the lose but also for the very entertaining game 
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Lotta success w/ this build so far. I like the opening even more than the mid game actually, cuz I was getting tired of dying to void rays.
Nothing like luring the enemy in, throwing down a couple PDD, a bunch of emp's goin off, and then their whole army explodes in seconds.
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thanks a lot for this buddy, you're in my platinum division btw! :Dd
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EPT
