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On May 01 2010 01:14 Iron_ wrote: First, I have watched tons of records PvT and I have *never* seen HT be more effective then colossus
MMM with viking support. HT > Collosi.
I hate vastly over-generalized statements like yours.
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On May 01 2010 16:45 mOnion wrote: GOD i hate posts like this. are you kidding me? I dont know why you people do these terrible comparisons and calculations.
You will NEVER find a toss going pure immortal. Immortals are so good because they work together with your army so well. NonY talked about this before. What makes a unit powerful is how it works with the rest of your army.
marauders can't effectively focus fire immortals because immortals go in the back. if you get too close, zealots will be all up in your grill, so he'll have no immortals, but you'll have no army.
Er, the marauders outrange the immortals and can kite the zealots with both a snare and stims. He has the advantage easily if he knows how to do basic micro (move away and hit s).
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On May 01 2010 18:08 Novembermike wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 16:45 mOnion wrote: GOD i hate posts like this. are you kidding me? I dont know why you people do these terrible comparisons and calculations.
You will NEVER find a toss going pure immortal. Immortals are so good because they work together with your army so well. NonY talked about this before. What makes a unit powerful is how it works with the rest of your army.
marauders can't effectively focus fire immortals because immortals go in the back. if you get too close, zealots will be all up in your grill, so he'll have no immortals, but you'll have no army. Er, the marauders outrange the immortals and can kite the zealots with both a snare and stims. He has the advantage easily if he knows how to do basic micro (move away and hit s).
It would have to be some amazing micro in my opinion, not gonna say its not possible though. During engagements with mainly zealots/senties/immortals ur gonna have a nice handful of zealots if you thats what one of your main units against this is. To get off shots on a large amount of units to kite a ball of chargelots/sentries, that would have to be some serious micro, even harder vs zealouts with charge.
Not saying ur point isn't valid, but against a ball of units, micro'ing enough to slow a large portion even enough to make a difference will be quite tough when force fields start going down+zealots charging.
I'm not gonna repeat everyone about a good strat because most strats posted here are easy to pull of and work, my personal preference is 2-3 voidrays along with ur initial gateway unit+1-2 immortal army. (Done it multiple times, the trick is holding off the initial rush of marauders as everyone is saying. If they play super passive/FE, then it should be an easy win).
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HTs aren't a counter to a marauder rush or anything, but they are great in late game situations where you both have armies jockeying around the center of the map. every time you engage, storm drains HP from his clump while you retreat.
(I've never tried it, but archons tank marauder fire better than immortals--it's like having 300hp of hardened shields. so it might be worth trying to save your HT for merging)
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On May 01 2010 14:20 fatduck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 13:34 Luddite wrote:On May 01 2010 10:03 BlasiuS wrote: Just as a clarification, 11 marauders is critical mass to kill immortals.
Immortals have 100 shields. With hardened shields they take 10 damage from marauders. So (100 / 10) = 10 marauder hits to reduce shields to 0.
Immortals have 200 health. 10 marauder shots deals 10 * (20 - 1) = 190 damage. So 11 marauder hits will kill an immortal with no shields.
So 11 marauders kill an immortal in 2 volleys.
edit: whoops forgot about armor. you realize that 11 marauders costs the same as 3 or 4 immortals, right? (3 in gas cost, 4 in mineral cost) Without stim, the fight goes like this: 11 marauders vs 4 immortals 10 vs 3 9 vs 3 8 vs 2 7 vs 1 7 vs 0 With stim, the fight goes like this: 11 vs 4 10 vs 2 9 vs 1 9 vs 0 That's assuming no micro (which marauders have the advantage in, with +1 range, more speed, and concussive shot). (edit: I'm not gonna redo the calculations but it should be obvious that even with guardian shield up the marauders are still way ahead)
I just ran the numbers and this seems off by quite a bit. It goes more like.
11 vs 4 9 vs 4 7 vs 4 7 vs 3
and I stopped there. 4 immortals should kill two stimmed marauders on the first volley and then we have 1 delay vs 1.45 delay.
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On May 01 2010 16:51 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote: Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms. Storm is great against marauders, and the bio ball in general. I have no idea why anyone would say otherwise. The argument "Because they have too much hp" makes no sense. As for the lots dying, well that is up to the player to curb as best as he can.
Finally someone that agrees with me. 2-3 storms can cower whole m&m ball and 80dmg from storm + they always stim isnt small loss of life + you always have some units to finish them off..
Storm has always been protoss trademark, maybe thats the reason Im trying to use it in all mu.
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what do u do as toss when terran has alot of marauders along with medivac + viking + siege tank support?
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On May 02 2010 04:35 nglt wrote: what do u do as toss when terran has alot of marauders along with medivac + viking + siege tank support?
Type gg and leave...
Srsly if U let that happen youre in big troubles.. I would try to counter that with speed zeals/sentries/HT and few immortals... But dunno, never played vs that combination, sounds scary..
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I play colosus and it kinda works against marauder+marine.
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On May 01 2010 18:40 go4it wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 16:51 keV. wrote:On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote: Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms. Storm is great against marauders, and the bio ball in general. I have no idea why anyone would say otherwise. The argument "Because they have too much hp" makes no sense. As for the lots dying, well that is up to the player to curb as best as he can. Finally someone that agrees with me. 2-3 storms can cower whole m&m ball and 80dmg from storm + they always stim isnt small loss of life + you always have some units to finish them off.. Storm has always been protoss trademark, maybe thats the reason Im trying to use it in all mu. Stim -is- a small loss of life for marauders (comparatively). Storm really isn't a threat to marauders like it is to marines. That's probably my only complaint with the MU at the moment. Bio armies that are heavy in marauders don't fear aoe unless you can split them up with a lot of force fields and crush them while half are out of range (if not, your units just die too fast to hold the line).
Q: Do you plan on rework/rebalance of the Forcefield or are you already statisfied with it. A: We are never "happy" about anything in the game.=) We are always looking at everything and trying to see if it works or it is broken. We think Force Field is a fun ability that has a lot of great uses that introduces a ton of new strategy into the game. We worry that it might be a little powerful. We are looking at some nerfs to the Sentry to create a higher cost for Protoss players who choose to bring too many Sentrys to a fight.
Blizzard has hinted at nerfing forcefield and void rays will probably see a slight nerf aswell, two of the most important anti-marauder units we have. Not sure where the MU is going to shift, because P seems to always come up with a new gimmick, but it's pretty scary to contemplate.
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immortals and sentries dominate marauders esp if enemy is attacking a choke, so easy to split him up and take a few down at a time
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void rays and immortals are the key. dont go pure (X) units in sc2. you will get raped
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On May 02 2010 05:05 go4it wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2010 04:35 nglt wrote: what do u do as toss when terran has alot of marauders along with medivac + viking + siege tank support? Type gg and leave... Srsly if U let that happen youre in big troubles.. I would try to counter that with speed zeals/sentries/HT and few immortals... But dunno, never played vs that combination, sounds scary.. Sad to say that I have, I gg'd.
Feels bad man...
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On April 30 2010 21:06 folke123 wrote: Well, if you check my replay, you could see that after killing my drone I had no good way of getting intel until my observer was out. And when I saw the marauders I had to constantly replenish my army. There was just not enough money to get up a stargate :/
You have to apply pressure early game with sentrylots early game, if you see too many marauders get gate then.
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On April 30 2010 22:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 21:52 KOFgokuon wrote: 11-12 marauders only need 2 rounds of shots to kill an immortal, if they have stim then you don't even have time to run your immortal back, and it's not like that's enuogh time for your other troops to really do that much damage saying 1 gate robo is the way to go is over simplifying things Indeed. This is not a case of a hard counter destroying 10 of the unit it counters on it's own, that doesn't happen. Focussing fire will kill those Immortals and each one you lose has a far larger impact on your DPS than each Marauder he loses. On the matter of scouting, bear in mind vs Terran, that while you cannot get into the base early, you can against some players, get an impression of what they have by running a probe right up to the top of the ramp at the very edge of their block. Many Terran players will mass whatever unit they're... well massing, just behind the block to repel attacks, so if you see a ton of Marauder missiles coming at your probe, then you know what he's planning.
so his 1500 mineral 300 gas marauders are killing your 250 mineral 100 gas immortals? Don't say immortals are ineffective like this in these situations because that many marauders should be able to kill an immortal that easily... Get maybe 4 immortals for 1000m400g and then see what happens
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Forcefields should have life or be smaller and only targeted if the enemy manually targets them.
Anyway, a good combination of sentry zealot immortal stalker will beat pure marauders if you engage them at either player's base. If you engage them in the open, then the marauders will kite your zealots to death and probably snipe a couple immortals/stalkers as well (especially with stimp, without stimp your immorts and stalks will actually have the advantage assuming you're not grotesquely outnumbered).
The point of Forcefields is to make the line of ranged units thinner for the opponent. Normally you have 2 lines of ranged units firing upon each other like what the British did in wars back in the day. Forcefield takes up the space of the enemy's firing line, effectively only allowing a fraction of the enemy units fire upon you (the rest will be stuck behind the firing line which is mostly forcefields).
Throw in a couple guardians shields and your zealots will take 20% more beating, which is a lot considering it already takes like 17 or so shots to kill a zealot (vs 21 for an immortal) and considering zealots only cost 100 minerals.
The reason why you want stalkers is because you won't have the robo bays to spend all your money on imortals. The stalkers still do good damage against Marauders (albeit a bit fragile) so thats why you need the forcefields to cut their firing line down and also why you need the zealots to tank the shots. The immortals do a lot of damage but you should only have 2-3 of them during your 1st push.
I do have a lot of trouble against protoss doing immortal pushes. I'd post replays but I can't say I've ever done any mass marauder games against P's in 1v1.
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force feild + colossus with an mix from the gateway..
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I think this topic should be how to counter heavy marauder as Protoss and not pure marauder.
Because if your opponent were to really refuse to build anything other than marauders you could kill them with carriers or void rays without issue. Honestly, you could probably even do it with phoenixes if you wanted too.
if he has a mixed units, you might do well with zealot/sentries/colossi/phoenix balanced depending on what he's got, ideally.
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Just simple gateway mix with chargelot+forcefield+ranged totally owned pretty much all of my marauders so far even when I had a totally unchallenged expansion up with good economy and protoss countered with a way later expansion. Forcefield split army into two halves, first one mainly constists of a thin line of marauders, those behind can only shoot zealots, stalkers+immortals remain unharmed, cheep 100 min zealots tank and do insane dps.
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The best units for countering marauders are zealots with some sentries for guardian shield. They take almost the same amount of hits to kill as immortal but they cost much less obviously. Add anything you want to provide greater dps (storm/colossus/immortal) and you should be fine as long as you can avoid kiting abuse. This can be done with charge, force field, chokes or simply forcing him to fight or lose the base.
Edit: ninjaed grrr.
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