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So, I've just lost a game where my terran opponent just got pure marauders and crushed me.
I tried to get imortals and zlots (with speed later on)
He could just slow my Zealots and stim to get away and just demolish my army.
The only thing I can think of that would help me is getting some sentries and trying to trap the marauders, but since sentries are gas heavy, that would mean alot fewer imortals.
Teching to air wouldn't have worked cause I was under to much pressure and he could just switch to rines.
I would like to know a good way to counter pure marauders as protoss.
here is the replay of me getting owned
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2800
EDIT: In this match I tried to go Speedlots, Sentries, Immortals which acording to most people seem to be the way to go (or go voidrays)
But could someone please watch the replay and give me some pointers? what did I do wrong? the more obvious the better 
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try void rays, they "hard" counter pure marauder play, i havent lost using voidrays yet. Charge them up on a proxy pylon and then just snipe the ppls buildings or marines.
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if he is going pure marauders, the best way is seriously void rays. Im in plat league and a lot of terran like to go for marauder seige tank combo, 2 - 3 voidrays is enough to demolish the entire army in that battle and then u rush in and counter attack. He will not be able to pump marines fast enough to counter because of the tech lab add ons and a fully charged voidray will take out marines too easily.
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pure marauder build is easily countered by 1gate robo with immortals and stalkers. immortals just totally own marauders.
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Well, if you check my replay, you could see that after killing my drone I had no good way of getting intel until my observer was out. And when I saw the marauders I had to constantly replenish my army. There was just not enough money to get up a stargate :/
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Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work..
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On April 30 2010 20:57 bLah. wrote:
pure marauder build is easily countered by 1gate robo with immortals and stalkers. immortals just totally own marauders.
Only in small numbers. Immortals cost-for-cost are utterly worthless later on against marauders. You need colossi or void rays.
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On April 30 2010 21:14 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 20:57 bLah. wrote:
pure marauder build is easily countered by 1gate robo with immortals and stalkers. immortals just totally own marauders. Only in small numbers. Immortals cost-for-cost are utterly worthless later on against marauders. You need colossi or void rays.
they only lose their value if there are ghosts emping them because they lose hardened shield then, otherwise they completely rape marauders and if terran is going for pure marauders you win with 1gate robo build. Only build which can counter 1gate robo is 1rax-FE-4rax-4bunkers with mass marine and then marauders/ghosts/vikings etc
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Do take that marauders deal a lot of damage to immortals, and immortals are slow, bulky units, whereas immortals when stimmed are pretty damn fast. If you allow the terrans to mass up marauders ur army will not be able to withstand it so u need either HT or DT or Voidrays.
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11-12 marauders only need 2 rounds of shots to kill an immortal, if they have stim then you don't even have time to run your immortal back, and it's not like that's enuogh time for your other troops to really do that much damage
saying 1 gate robo is the way to go is over simplifying things
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On April 30 2010 21:52 KOFgokuon wrote:
11-12 marauders only need 2 rounds of shots to kill an immortal, if they have stim then you don't even have time to run your immortal back, and it's not like that's enuogh time for your other troops to really do that much damage
saying 1 gate robo is the way to go is over simplifying things
Indeed. This is not a case of a hard counter destroying 10 of the unit it counters on it's own, that doesn't happen. Focussing fire will kill those Immortals and each one you lose has a far larger impact on your DPS than each Marauder he loses.
On the matter of scouting, bear in mind vs Terran, that while you cannot get into the base early, you can against some players, get an impression of what they have by running a probe right up to the top of the ramp at the very edge of their block. Many Terran players will mass whatever unit they're... well massing, just behind the block to repel attacks, so if you see a ton of Marauder missiles coming at your probe, then you know what he's planning.
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Immortals are more of a "I'm going to rush immortals and then push into the terran base" after that, stop producing immortals. There (QUICKLY) becomes a time when immortals become terrible against the marauder ball, even without ghosts. With ghosts there's just nothing they can do. Zealots + Sentries, or any ground army with high templar/voidray/colossus support is needed to fight them. Void rays can be used to harass too, while high templar and colossus will just destroy their army.
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Two Words: VOID RAYS.
This morning a bunch of really good SC2 players hung out together (*1) and tried to create an aggressive Marauder build which would NOT be killed easily by Void Rays. All they managed to do was kill lots of Probes, but once the first Void Ray is out the Terran is as good as dead. You only get one or two Warp Gates and a few Stalkers to keep the Marauders busy. If they die it doesnt matter, just getting the Void Ray out is important. Day[9] tried about 4 times to beat Azz, but didnt manage it and others kinda complained about this tactic being too easy as well.
(*1) Chills channel, roughly 9 am CET, friday April 30th ...
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obviously a few immortals vs a huge amount of marauders is no matchup.. that's true with any unit combo. Immortals really can't be massed because of the high mineral demand, that's the real issue.
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this situation aoe or voidray best... larged massed ranged units of ANYTHING is going to kill your shit super fast
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Immortal zealot sentry --> add HT's works amazingly for me. Stalkers make little sense since they die as fast as sentries do similar DPS and are more expensive than everything else.
2 stalkers<1 immortal
1 sentry 2 zealots < 2 stalkers
vs marauders assuming you forcefield well and guardian shield.
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sentries ! + speedlots + stalkers
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On April 30 2010 22:39 Rabiator wrote:
Two Words: VOID RAYS.
This morning a bunch of really good SC2 players hung out together (*1) and tried to create an aggressive Marauder build which would NOT be killed easily by Void Rays. All they managed to do was kill lots of Probes, but once the first Void Ray is out the Terran is as good as dead. You only get one or two Warp Gates and a few Stalkers to keep the Marauders busy. If they die it doesnt matter, just getting the Void Ray out is important. Day[9] tried about 4 times to beat Azz, but didnt manage it and others kinda complained about this tactic being too easy as well.
(*1) Chills channel, roughly 9 am CET, friday April 30th ...
I also watched this. I expect they will nerf void rays soon when Terran players start to vine about it.
This build is very strong if not OP atm.
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On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work..
HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms.
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On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms.
Yea dont do this...
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With the nerf to psi storm, 2 area to 1.5 which is like 40% damage... , i find that HT's are not cost effective any longer against marauder balls, colossi is a much better option imo, sentry speed-lots and colossi works well, the marauders don't get their +>9000 dmg vs armor and you'll have lots for canon fodder, sentries for force fields either blocking their escape, splitting their force or preventing a push with the colossus in the back tearing it up. however if the teran starts getting vikings, which they will, you'll find that blink stalkers become more valuable and are worth mixing with your force. its all about mixture, the marauders are not as strong against this sorta build because if you cut off the escape with force fields the ai will target the lots and colossus melt them away very effectively, they if they try and focus down your colossi its down to your micro vs theirs but colossi have a range advantage and your lots and sentries should be able to slow them down very effectively. What i tend to do is ill do a 1 gate robo build into a timing push with my immortals while I'm getting colossus tech and depending on how successful the push is you can expand and macro up or all in push. the thing with the 1 gate build is it tends to counter the common teran builds pretty well, if they go for the early reaper harass you'll have your early stalker to thwart it, you can get the immortals for early offensive and it gets your early obs and quicker colossus. The builds you'll have trouble against are ones which don't hurt their own econ by going for the reapers because they will be out macroing your 1 gate build.
or you know... void ray... but i hate em
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HT arent that good as AC9 said, they need back up either with colo or Zealots with charge.. that will do some damage
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On April 30 2010 22:39 Rabiator wrote:
Two Words: VOID RAYS.
This morning a bunch of really good SC2 players hung out together (*1) and tried to create an aggressive Marauder build which would NOT be killed easily by Void Rays. All they managed to do was kill lots of Probes, but once the first Void Ray is out the Terran is as good as dead. You only get one or two Warp Gates and a few Stalkers to keep the Marauders busy. If they die it doesnt matter, just getting the Void Ray out is important. Day[9] tried about 4 times to beat Azz, but didnt manage it and others kinda complained about this tactic being too easy as well.
(*1) Chills channel, roughly 9 am CET, friday April 30th ...
link to this please?
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I would note that if youre going to use immortals on marauders you need to really commit to that. Your one robo is not going to hold off 7 raxes with tech labs. Youre going to want 2-3 robos vs pure rauder, which is why most people rather grab void rays.
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On May 01 2010 00:47 abominare wrote:
I would note that if youre going to use immortals on marauders you need to really commit to that. Your one robo is not going to hold off 7 raxes with tech labs. Youre going to want 2-3 robos vs pure rauder, which is why most people rather grab void rays.
voidrays are good to startoff with.. rushing immortal early game is good too... however if the terran expands you should already have an expansion and on your way to templars...
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On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms.
Absolutely terrible advice. My standard tvp build against bio is stalker/sentry/zealot(charge)/ht
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On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work..
you're joking right
edit: nm everybody commented on this lol
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On April 30 2010 23:21 go4it wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 22:39 Rabiator wrote:
Two Words: VOID RAYS.
This morning a bunch of really good SC2 players hung out together (*1) and tried to create an aggressive Marauder build which would NOT be killed easily by Void Rays. All they managed to do was kill lots of Probes, but once the first Void Ray is out the Terran is as good as dead. You only get one or two Warp Gates and a few Stalkers to keep the Marauders busy. If they die it doesnt matter, just getting the Void Ray out is important. Day[9] tried about 4 times to beat Azz, but didnt manage it and others kinda complained about this tactic being too easy as well.
(*1) Chills channel, roughly 9 am CET, friday April 30th ... I also watched this. I expect they will nerf void rays soon when Terran players start to vine about it. This build is very strong if not OP atm.
I'm not sure I understand why this is considered OP. Yes, Void Rays are the counter to massed Marauders, but as far as I know, there's nothing forcing a Terran player to go massed Marauders in the first place. If you're going to go with a mass of a single unit type, then you shouldn't be surprised if the enemy scouts you and you lose to a mass of counter units.
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On April 30 2010 20:54 Frenzied_Tank wrote:
try void rays, they "hard" counter pure marauder play, i havent lost using voidrays yet. Charge them up on a proxy pylon and then just snipe the ppls buildings or marines.
Wow, that's brilliant.
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I also heard air hard counters marauders. Void rays work but I've found phoenixes to be a lot more fun and exciting than "yeah, I flew a void ray into your base and you had no AA."
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But, if they do a normal MMM my void rays are basicly worthless against the main army?
I wonder how you scout this only Marauder build.
Because the first probe get shot down before knowing if it is going to be MMM or massed marauders or anything else. All you see is 1-2 raxes. and that could be anything.
And asuming you do like 13 gate to 15 core and then like 2 more gateways and a robo facility for some sort of imortal push.
If you do that kind of build, your observer is going to be too late, you will see alot of Marauders coming to your base, and you wont be able to counter it cause the stargate+ one void ray takes some time to build.
So what I guess I want to say with this post is, how do you scout massed marauders?
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On April 30 2010 23:21 go4it wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 22:39 Rabiator wrote:
Two Words: VOID RAYS.
This morning a bunch of really good SC2 players hung out together (*1) and tried to create an aggressive Marauder build which would NOT be killed easily by Void Rays. All they managed to do was kill lots of Probes, but once the first Void Ray is out the Terran is as good as dead. You only get one or two Warp Gates and a few Stalkers to keep the Marauders busy. If they die it doesnt matter, just getting the Void Ray out is important. Day[9] tried about 4 times to beat Azz, but didnt manage it and others kinda complained about this tactic being too easy as well.
(*1) Chills channel, roughly 9 am CET, friday April 30th ... I also watched this. I expect they will nerf void rays soon when Terran players start to vine about it. This build is very strong if not OP atm.
It is the terran player's fault to have an over aggressive marauder build in the first place. For god's sakes terran has the most accessible anti air units in the game it is your own fault for not having enough anti air in your army to combat those void rays. Also voidrays are pretty dmg dealing rubbish damage until they are charged up it is up to the terran to take it down before it charges for to stim and fall back and attack again when the charge finishes.
Going very heavy marauder you are already taking the risk assuming that the protoss is not going for air units, most of the time the terran blindly builds marauders just because they are strong and the concussive shells rock, and they dare not waste energy to scan sweep the corners of the protoss base to check of any hidden tech.
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First, I have watched tons of records PvT and I have *never* seen HT be more effective then colossus, and generally they have sucked pretty hard. If someone disagrees kindly provide a rec of HT not sucking and I'll gladly change my line of thinking. If the Terran sucks and doesnt move any of his units and lets you just storm him to death, then that is not helping us.
After watching Nony's rec pack, I gave the Phoenix a solid go. It does in fact counter this build. You need to get out a Z and a couple of sentry to keep him from killing you straight off while you make the stargate (this is no different than when you keep yourself alive while you make the Robo).
What tends to happen is this: You counter his first army, lift up 3 or 4 of his mauraders while your couple of z's and sentry pack do the rest. Also, you can snipe a couple of the mauraders as he is walking over to your base. Once your first army > his first army, this provides a nice window to expand, and get your second base fully saturated by 10-12 minutes (depending on how hard he decided to come at you).
At this point is where I come to some problems, as I am not yet sure what to transition into after my phoenix start with z's and sentry. I saw Nony in his recs going Z's and sentry with even more phoenix, but I have experienced that it takes a pro level of micro to make that army work. My days of pro gaming were 10 years ago so I need to simplify a bit
I believe after you win the first battle, expand, and force him into making vikings or marines, you are in a good position. What to do with that good position is something I am still working out. Any advice from people that have been in this position is appreciated.
One idea that I have not yet tested, is building a second stargate and going Voidrays at this point to act as my seige. Are they too expensive and slow building or do you think this may work?
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Pure maraudres can be countered by zealot+sentry army so easily. Just field the back so he won't be able to micro and release your zealots to the ball since marauders hit less to light units your zealots will make some slaughter there.
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Getting out voidrays is great, forces him to make vikings or marines, which are easily countered by your standard protoss ball. Just build 1-2-3 voidrays, force him to counter, then macro up your gateway ball, if the game goes longer, get a 3rd and make collosus.
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Zealot/Sentry alone can handle it if you FF properly. Zealot/Sentry/Immortal definitely works. Sentry/Colossus works. Voids work. My favorite is Immortal drop. I think there's a Phoenix build floating around -haha- that can handle Terran standard play, too.
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On April 30 2010 21:14 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 20:57 bLah. wrote:
pure marauder build is easily countered by 1gate robo with immortals and stalkers. immortals just totally own marauders. Only in small numbers. Immortals cost-for-cost are utterly worthless later on against marauders. You need colossi or void rays.
This is correct.
On April 30 2010 21:36 bLah. wrote:
they only lose their value if there are ghosts emping them because they lose hardened shield then,
This is a myth. Marauders -do not need- emp to crush immortals once they have stim and exceed early game numbers. This should not be news to anyone. Please stop fabricating how great the immortal is in comparison to the marauder.
@OP Use void rays. Spend the extra money you have on 2-3gates cranking out zealots and a couple sentries (as gas allows). Send your first 2 rays to the terran main and power up on an outlying building then hose down any anti-air you can see. At this point you'll have the attention of the marauder pile. If it runs to your base, meet them at your ramp, block with FF and start melting them with the VR's. If he stays in his base, keep sniping buildings and units with your rays while you contain outside his base and take your own natural expansion. He'll probably be massing something like marines and vikings now, so feel free to throw down a bunch more gateways and spam stalker until he falls over.
Two things to keep in mind with VR build:
1. Proxy rax marauder will kill you if you're not careful. Always 10gate, fast cyber, and build a zealot, followed by a stalker, and then a sentry. The first zeal will get the marauder's attention, hopefully surviving until the stalker is out. Make sure you always have zeals AND stalkers out to deal with marauders. Stalkers die fast, but are the only way to hurt marauders much. Zeals get kited, but are the only way to soak their massive damage. Make sentries when he's not pressuring your base. Once you have a few you can just FF block him out.
2. If you scout the terran building a cc early or building a lot of barracks with no addons (or reactors, though i've never seen it done that way), do not build rays, I repeat, stick with gateway units if you want to be agressive. He'll be ass-deep in marines and bunkers, so your void rays won't be very effective.
GL with the RBG's.
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Sentries and Void Rays. Bait them into attacking and Force Field them back then send in the Void Rays. They'll probably pop Stims and rush forward, only to find they can't do anything with those Force Fields up and now your Void Rays have plenty of time to clean house.
If you try to fight them on the ground, with your partial air-army, its going to get utterly rocked, and your Void Rays probably won't deal enough damage to the wad before they start rampaging through your expansions and main base.
Without tons of Zealots (to soak damage) and Immortals (to deal damage) the Protoss army gets rocked by Marauders on the ground. I always bring along Void Rays, because even if I lose a truly epic fight on the ground, he's probably got nothing left to kill my Void Rays, so I just clean up the Marauders and fly straight towards his base.
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phoenix build? why would you do that when the VR is at the same tech level and doesn't have any of the weaknesses that the phoenix has.
Anyway void ray harrass and void ray with your main army works well. The trouble is vikings, which will also counter colossus so the next best transition (in my opinion) is to blink stalkers, which leads well into templar/dark templar. I've avoided the robo bay completely in this build and usually use hallucinations with sentries to scout.
I'm not even sure if psi storm is worth getting, it's good enough just to feedback the medivacs. DT's will force him to make ravens or waste countless scans, and they work pretty well against mmm.
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On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms.
True but so far it worked best for me. Prolly not the best solution but worked..
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My first day in SC2 beta and I am having exactly the same problem. I can beat just about all zergs and toss in silver ladder no sweat but i loose against all terrans cos they all follow same BO.
First harras followed by marauder.
Ive gone with void rays in this last game and they just got munched up cos he had a few marines any anyway, he has so many marauders vs my zealot void ray army. Is there no straight forward way of countering such a devastating TvP BO?
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Immortals are amazing vs marauders for cost effectiveness.. until they get hit by a ghost, then they are 100% worthless and will die instantly. Zealot Sentry Immo is extremely effective vs mass marauders and even a marine marauder mixture, but throw that first ghost into the mix and you might as well forget it, no amount of "trying" to micro your units will be succesful, that emp is going to cripple you completely. Ghosts are to Immortals what Immortals are to tanks. A hard counter. Very. Hard. Maybe the hardest counter in the game, because once that shield is down, immortal is basically dead.
So if you go Gate Core Robo Gate, and push with a few zealots + sentries and 3-4 immortals EARLY (before they have ghosts) you will decimate them. If they get 1 or 2 ghosts out you can forget it, the emp will win, and this is why so many toss are going for 2 warpgate + stargate to pump void rays. Sure, your gateway units will be cannon fodder and just die probably, but if you keep him from scouting your stargate its pretty gg.
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Just as a clarification, 11 marauders is critical mass to kill immortals.
Immortals have 100 shields. With hardened shields they take 10 damage from marauders. So (100 / 10) = 10 marauder hits to reduce shields to 0.
Immortals have 200 health. 10 marauder shots deals 10 * (20 - 1) = 190 damage. So 11 marauder hits will kill an immortal with no shields.
So 11 marauders kill an immortal in 2 volleys.
edit: whoops forgot about armor.
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On May 01 2010 10:03 BlasiuS wrote:
Just as a clarification, 11 marauders is critical mass to kill immortals.
Immortals have 100 shields. With hardened shields they take 10 damage from marauders. So (100 / 10) = 10 marauder hits to reduce shields to 0.
Immortals have 200 health. 10 marauder shots deals 10 * (20 - 1) = 190 damage. So 11 marauder hits will kill an immortal with no shields.
So 11 marauders kill an immortal in 2 volleys.
edit: whoops forgot about armor.
you realize that 11 marauders costs the same as 3 or 4 immortals, right? (3 in gas cost, 4 in mineral cost)
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On May 01 2010 13:34 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 10:03 BlasiuS wrote:
Just as a clarification, 11 marauders is critical mass to kill immortals.
Immortals have 100 shields. With hardened shields they take 10 damage from marauders. So (100 / 10) = 10 marauder hits to reduce shields to 0.
Immortals have 200 health. 10 marauder shots deals 10 * (20 - 1) = 190 damage. So 11 marauder hits will kill an immortal with no shields.
So 11 marauders kill an immortal in 2 volleys.
edit: whoops forgot about armor. you realize that 11 marauders costs the same as 3 or 4 immortals, right? (3 in gas cost, 4 in mineral cost)
Without stim, the fight goes like this:
11 marauders vs 4 immortals
10 vs 3
9 vs 3
8 vs 2
7 vs 1
7 vs 0
With stim, the fight goes like this:
11 vs 4
10 vs 2
9 vs 1
9 vs 0
That's assuming no micro (which marauders have the advantage in, with +1 range, more speed, and concussive shot).
(edit: I'm not gonna redo the calculations but it should be obvious that even with guardian shield up the marauders are still way ahead)
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On May 01 2010 13:34 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 10:03 BlasiuS wrote:
Just as a clarification, 11 marauders is critical mass to kill immortals.
Immortals have 100 shields. With hardened shields they take 10 damage from marauders. So (100 / 10) = 10 marauder hits to reduce shields to 0.
Immortals have 200 health. 10 marauder shots deals 10 * (20 - 1) = 190 damage. So 11 marauder hits will kill an immortal with no shields.
So 11 marauders kill an immortal in 2 volleys.
edit: whoops forgot about armor. you realize that 11 marauders costs the same as 3 or 4 immortals, right? (3 in gas cost, 4 in mineral cost)
not sure what your point is here, but yes, the costs are similar.
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On May 01 2010 11:09 threehundred wrote:
out macro them
thanks for the answer to the "how to win in general" question but i'm pretty sure the OP was saying something about marauders...
basically what everyones been saying. Voidrays are great, immortals are great, chargelots are great. Try em all and see what you like.
On May 01 2010 14:20 fatduck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 13:34 Luddite wrote:On May 01 2010 10:03 BlasiuS wrote:
Just as a clarification, 11 marauders is critical mass to kill immortals.
Immortals have 100 shields. With hardened shields they take 10 damage from marauders. So (100 / 10) = 10 marauder hits to reduce shields to 0.
Immortals have 200 health. 10 marauder shots deals 10 * (20 - 1) = 190 damage. So 11 marauder hits will kill an immortal with no shields.
So 11 marauders kill an immortal in 2 volleys.
edit: whoops forgot about armor. you realize that 11 marauders costs the same as 3 or 4 immortals, right? (3 in gas cost, 4 in mineral cost) Without stim, the fight goes like this: 11 marauders vs 4 immortals 10 vs 3 9 vs 3 8 vs 2 7 vs 1 7 vs 0 With stim, the fight goes like this: 11 vs 4 10 vs 2 9 vs 1 9 vs 0 That's assuming no micro (which marauders have the advantage in, with +1 range, more speed, and concussive shot). (edit: I'm not gonna redo the calculations but it should be obvious that even with guardian shield up the marauders are still way ahead)
GOD i hate posts like this. are you kidding me? I dont know why you people do these terrible comparisons and calculations.
You will NEVER find a toss going pure immortal. Immortals are so good because they work together with your army so well. NonY talked about this before. What makes a unit powerful is how it works with the rest of your army.
marauders can't effectively focus fire immortals because immortals go in the back. if you get too close, zealots will be all up in your grill, so he'll have no immortals, but you'll have no army.
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On April 30 2010 23:21 go4it wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 22:39 Rabiator wrote:
Two Words: VOID RAYS.
This morning a bunch of really good SC2 players hung out together (*1) and tried to create an aggressive Marauder build which would NOT be killed easily by Void Rays. All they managed to do was kill lots of Probes, but once the first Void Ray is out the Terran is as good as dead. You only get one or two Warp Gates and a few Stalkers to keep the Marauders busy. If they die it doesnt matter, just getting the Void Ray out is important. Day[9] tried about 4 times to beat Azz, but didnt manage it and others kinda complained about this tactic being too easy as well.
(*1) Chills channel, roughly 9 am CET, friday April 30th ... I also watched this. I expect they will nerf void rays soon when Terran players start to vine about it. This build is very strong if not OP atm.
Only if they nerfed it in the way they nerfed marauders (aka, not at all). I don't mind them toning down void rays, but its also the only viable counter to lots of early marauder pressure. The new concussive shell upgrade might as well not exist. 60 seconds 50/50. Give me a break.
This build isn't overpowered at all, if the Terran player goes marine heavy instead then the one void ray isn't going to do jack. Its only "OP" (or what I like to call a "counter") when T goes 3 rax tech labs only making marauders. The void ray might be too strong, but it isn't because it counters marauders so well.
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On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms.
Storm is great against marauders, and the bio ball in general. I have no idea why anyone would say otherwise. The argument "Because they have too much hp" makes no sense. As for the lots dying, well that is up to the player to curb as best as he can.
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On April 30 2010 23:21 go4it wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 22:39 Rabiator wrote:
Two Words: VOID RAYS.
This morning a bunch of really good SC2 players hung out together (*1) and tried to create an aggressive Marauder build which would NOT be killed easily by Void Rays. All they managed to do was kill lots of Probes, but once the first Void Ray is out the Terran is as good as dead. You only get one or two Warp Gates and a few Stalkers to keep the Marauders busy. If they die it doesnt matter, just getting the Void Ray out is important. Day[9] tried about 4 times to beat Azz, but didnt manage it and others kinda complained about this tactic being too easy as well.
(*1) Chills channel, roughly 9 am CET, friday April 30th ... I also watched this. I expect they will nerf void rays soon when Terran players start to vine about it. This build is very strong if not OP atm.
how is the build OP if it counters a player who is too stubborn to account for Air Units?
Terran players shouldn't be allowed to not make anti air and get away with it. Void Rays make sure of this.
On May 01 2010 16:51 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms. Storm is great against marauders, and the bio ball in general. I have no idea why anyone would say otherwise. The argument "Because they have too much hp" makes no sense. As for the lots dying, well that is up to the player to curb as best as he can.
storm is the same as banelings. tears through the marines leaving just the marauders. against pure marauder it is just terrible. marauders with medivacs can eat through soooo much storm its unreal.
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On May 01 2010 16:51 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 23:21 go4it wrote:On April 30 2010 22:39 Rabiator wrote:
Two Words: VOID RAYS.
This morning a bunch of really good SC2 players hung out together (*1) and tried to create an aggressive Marauder build which would NOT be killed easily by Void Rays. All they managed to do was kill lots of Probes, but once the first Void Ray is out the Terran is as good as dead. You only get one or two Warp Gates and a few Stalkers to keep the Marauders busy. If they die it doesnt matter, just getting the Void Ray out is important. Day[9] tried about 4 times to beat Azz, but didnt manage it and others kinda complained about this tactic being too easy as well.
(*1) Chills channel, roughly 9 am CET, friday April 30th ... I also watched this. I expect they will nerf void rays soon when Terran players start to vine about it. This build is very strong if not OP atm. how is the build OP if it counters a player who is too stubborn to account for Air Units? Terran players shouldn't be allowed to not make anti air and get away with it. Void Rays make sure of this. Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 16:51 keV. wrote:On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms. Storm is great against marauders, and the bio ball in general. I have no idea why anyone would say otherwise. The argument "Because they have too much hp" makes no sense. As for the lots dying, well that is up to the player to curb as best as he can. storm is the same as banelings. tears through the marines leaving just the marauders. against pure marauder it is just terrible. marauders with medivacs can eat through soooo much storm its unreal.
I'm not sure what you mean, you have feedback to deal with medivacs and your chargelots are going to have a much easier time killing damaged marauders. No, storm doesn't one shot marauders. I don't see how that makes it bad. I don't feel that templar tech is any weaker then robo tech vs terran.
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On May 01 2010 16:56 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 16:51 mOnion wrote:On April 30 2010 23:21 go4it wrote:On April 30 2010 22:39 Rabiator wrote:
Two Words: VOID RAYS.
This morning a bunch of really good SC2 players hung out together (*1) and tried to create an aggressive Marauder build which would NOT be killed easily by Void Rays. All they managed to do was kill lots of Probes, but once the first Void Ray is out the Terran is as good as dead. You only get one or two Warp Gates and a few Stalkers to keep the Marauders busy. If they die it doesnt matter, just getting the Void Ray out is important. Day[9] tried about 4 times to beat Azz, but didnt manage it and others kinda complained about this tactic being too easy as well.
(*1) Chills channel, roughly 9 am CET, friday April 30th ... I also watched this. I expect they will nerf void rays soon when Terran players start to vine about it. This build is very strong if not OP atm. how is the build OP if it counters a player who is too stubborn to account for Air Units? Terran players shouldn't be allowed to not make anti air and get away with it. Void Rays make sure of this. On May 01 2010 16:51 keV. wrote:On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms. Storm is great against marauders, and the bio ball in general. I have no idea why anyone would say otherwise. The argument "Because they have too much hp" makes no sense. As for the lots dying, well that is up to the player to curb as best as he can. storm is the same as banelings. tears through the marines leaving just the marauders. against pure marauder it is just terrible. marauders with medivacs can eat through soooo much storm its unreal. I'm not sure what you mean, you have feedback to deal with medivacs and your chargelots are going to have a much easier time killing damaged marauders. No, storm doesn't one shot marauders. I don't see how that makes it bad. I don't feel that templar tech is any weaker then robo tech vs terran.
hm, differing styles I guess. I'm suppose they could both work, storm just seems more difficult to me
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Zealots with charge and sentrys with good FF RAPES marauder builds like no other then later on add in colos or HT.
But ya really good FF just rapes pure marauders like no other
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if you're making alot of zealots pre-speed you need a ton of sentries to back them up. based off my experiences which you should not listen to over someone really good, immortal openings aren't strong against marauders. Stim focusfire and the immortal dies in a second or two without being able to do it's damage.
I much prefer 4 gate (if my opponents 1 basing) with a healthy mix of zeal/sentry with a few stalkers.
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Try getting Stalkers with Blink
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On May 01 2010 17:15 Rebornx3 wrote:
Try getting Stalkers with Blink
against pure marauders...
gl with that (especially if they have stim pack and concussion shell upgrade)
I don't see the problem if they go pure marauder. Build some air to ground units (ie void ray like everyone said)
but seriously just Force Field the army off and void ray to kill them if the opponent was stupid enough to go purely marauders
I mean mix in some marines there dude.
Marauders are strong but seriously
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Well, I always had a risky build for it, but if you buy enough time it works ;]. Just produce x2 robo collosus instead of extra gateway, and constantly keep chronoboosting them, if u can buy time until you have at least 5, you should be fine. Produce mainly zealots, with couple of sentries. I dislike high templar tech because I noticed terrans who go pure maurauder/medivac like to add ghosts with emp, so basically, if he gets a good emp on your high templars, you're dead right there.
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On May 01 2010 16:45 mOnion wrote:thanks for the answer to the "how to win in general" question but i'm pretty sure the OP was saying something about marauders... basically what everyones been saying. Voidrays are great, immortals are great, chargelots are great. Try em all and see what you like. Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 14:20 fatduck wrote:On May 01 2010 13:34 Luddite wrote:On May 01 2010 10:03 BlasiuS wrote:
Just as a clarification, 11 marauders is critical mass to kill immortals.
Immortals have 100 shields. With hardened shields they take 10 damage from marauders. So (100 / 10) = 10 marauder hits to reduce shields to 0.
Immortals have 200 health. 10 marauder shots deals 10 * (20 - 1) = 190 damage. So 11 marauder hits will kill an immortal with no shields.
So 11 marauders kill an immortal in 2 volleys.
edit: whoops forgot about armor. you realize that 11 marauders costs the same as 3 or 4 immortals, right? (3 in gas cost, 4 in mineral cost) Without stim, the fight goes like this: 11 marauders vs 4 immortals 10 vs 3 9 vs 3 8 vs 2 7 vs 1 7 vs 0 With stim, the fight goes like this: 11 vs 4 10 vs 2 9 vs 1 9 vs 0 That's assuming no micro (which marauders have the advantage in, with +1 range, more speed, and concussive shot). (edit: I'm not gonna redo the calculations but it should be obvious that even with guardian shield up the marauders are still way ahead) GOD i hate posts like this. are you kidding me? I dont know why you people do these terrible comparisons and calculations. You will NEVER find a toss going pure immortal. Immortals are so good because they work together with your army so well. NonY talked about this before. What makes a unit powerful is how it works with the rest of your army. marauders can't effectively focus fire immortals because immortals go in the back. if you get too close, zealots will be all up in your grill, so he'll have no immortals, but you'll have no army.
You're undoubtedly a much better player than me, so I respect your opinion, but I obviously wasn't trying to suggest that a typical engagement is straight marauders vs immortals. That's ridiculous. Except in tight terrain where you can force field trap, I think you're pretty much wrong - marauders have longer range than immortals, the same speed as zealots, and will have concussive shot by now. Charging his marauders in past zealots to focus fire your immortals would be pretty retarded.
I was just trying to point out that, despite what seems to be "common knowledge", having 3-4 immortals in your army doesn't auto-counter marauders, especially for cost.
edit: I should clarify that since we're talking about fast robo vs all-in marauders, chargelots are probably not an option
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On May 01 2010 01:14 Iron_ wrote:
First, I have watched tons of records PvT and I have *never* seen HT be more effective then colossus
MMM with viking support. HT > Collosi.
I hate vastly over-generalized statements like yours.
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On May 01 2010 16:45 mOnion wrote:
GOD i hate posts like this. are you kidding me? I dont know why you people do these terrible comparisons and calculations.
You will NEVER find a toss going pure immortal. Immortals are so good because they work together with your army so well. NonY talked about this before. What makes a unit powerful is how it works with the rest of your army.
marauders can't effectively focus fire immortals because immortals go in the back. if you get too close, zealots will be all up in your grill, so he'll have no immortals, but you'll have no army.
Er, the marauders outrange the immortals and can kite the zealots with both a snare and stims. He has the advantage easily if he knows how to do basic micro (move away and hit s).
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On May 01 2010 18:08 Novembermike wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 16:45 mOnion wrote:
GOD i hate posts like this. are you kidding me? I dont know why you people do these terrible comparisons and calculations.
You will NEVER find a toss going pure immortal. Immortals are so good because they work together with your army so well. NonY talked about this before. What makes a unit powerful is how it works with the rest of your army.
marauders can't effectively focus fire immortals because immortals go in the back. if you get too close, zealots will be all up in your grill, so he'll have no immortals, but you'll have no army. Er, the marauders outrange the immortals and can kite the zealots with both a snare and stims. He has the advantage easily if he knows how to do basic micro (move away and hit s).
It would have to be some amazing micro in my opinion, not gonna say its not possible though. During engagements with mainly zealots/senties/immortals ur gonna have a nice handful of zealots if you thats what one of your main units against this is. To get off shots on a large amount of units to kite a ball of chargelots/sentries, that would have to be some serious micro, even harder vs zealouts with charge.
Not saying ur point isn't valid, but against a ball of units, micro'ing enough to slow a large portion even enough to make a difference will be quite tough when force fields start going down+zealots charging.
I'm not gonna repeat everyone about a good strat because most strats posted here are easy to pull of and work, my personal preference is 2-3 voidrays along with ur initial gateway unit+1-2 immortal army. (Done it multiple times, the trick is holding off the initial rush of marauders as everyone is saying. If they play super passive/FE, then it should be an easy win).
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HTs aren't a counter to a marauder rush or anything, but they are great in late game situations where you both have armies jockeying around the center of the map. every time you engage, storm drains HP from his clump while you retreat.
(I've never tried it, but archons tank marauder fire better than immortals--it's like having 300hp of hardened shields. so it might be worth trying to save your HT for merging)
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On May 01 2010 14:20 fatduck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 13:34 Luddite wrote:On May 01 2010 10:03 BlasiuS wrote:
Just as a clarification, 11 marauders is critical mass to kill immortals.
Immortals have 100 shields. With hardened shields they take 10 damage from marauders. So (100 / 10) = 10 marauder hits to reduce shields to 0.
Immortals have 200 health. 10 marauder shots deals 10 * (20 - 1) = 190 damage. So 11 marauder hits will kill an immortal with no shields.
So 11 marauders kill an immortal in 2 volleys.
edit: whoops forgot about armor. you realize that 11 marauders costs the same as 3 or 4 immortals, right? (3 in gas cost, 4 in mineral cost) Without stim, the fight goes like this: 11 marauders vs 4 immortals 10 vs 3 9 vs 3 8 vs 2 7 vs 1 7 vs 0 With stim, the fight goes like this: 11 vs 4 10 vs 2 9 vs 1 9 vs 0 That's assuming no micro (which marauders have the advantage in, with +1 range, more speed, and concussive shot). (edit: I'm not gonna redo the calculations but it should be obvious that even with guardian shield up the marauders are still way ahead)
I just ran the numbers and this seems off by quite a bit. It goes more like.
11 vs 4
9 vs 4
7 vs 4
7 vs 3
and I stopped there. 4 immortals should kill two stimmed marauders on the first volley and then we have 1 delay vs 1.45 delay.
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On May 01 2010 16:51 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms. Storm is great against marauders, and the bio ball in general. I have no idea why anyone would say otherwise. The argument "Because they have too much hp" makes no sense. As for the lots dying, well that is up to the player to curb as best as he can.
Finally someone that agrees with me. 2-3 storms can cower whole m&m ball and 80dmg from storm + they always stim isnt small loss of life + you always have some units to finish them off..
Storm has always been protoss trademark, maybe thats the reason Im trying to use it in all mu.
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what do u do as toss when terran has alot of marauders along with medivac + viking + siege tank support?
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On May 02 2010 04:35 nglt wrote:
what do u do as toss when terran has alot of marauders along with medivac + viking + siege tank support?
Type gg and leave...
Srsly if U let that happen youre in big troubles.. I would try to counter that with speed zeals/sentries/HT and few immortals... But dunno, never played vs that combination, sounds scary..
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I play colosus and it kinda works against marauder+marine.
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On May 01 2010 18:40 go4it wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 16:51 keV. wrote:On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms. Storm is great against marauders, and the bio ball in general. I have no idea why anyone would say otherwise. The argument "Because they have too much hp" makes no sense. As for the lots dying, well that is up to the player to curb as best as he can. Finally someone that agrees with me. 2-3 storms can cower whole m&m ball and 80dmg from storm + they always stim isnt small loss of life + you always have some units to finish them off.. Storm has always been protoss trademark, maybe thats the reason Im trying to use it in all mu.
Stim -is- a small loss of life for marauders (comparatively). Storm really isn't a threat to marauders like it is to marines. That's probably my only complaint with the MU at the moment. Bio armies that are heavy in marauders don't fear aoe unless you can split them up with a lot of force fields and crush them while half are out of range (if not, your units just die too fast to hold the line).
Q: Do you plan on rework/rebalance of the Forcefield or are you already statisfied with it.
A: We are never "happy" about anything in the game.=) We are always looking at everything and trying to see if it works or it is broken. We think Force Field is a fun ability that has a lot of great uses that introduces a ton of new strategy into the game. We worry that it might be a little powerful. We are looking at some nerfs to the Sentry to create a higher cost for Protoss players who choose to bring too many Sentrys to a fight.
Blizzard has hinted at nerfing forcefield and void rays will probably see a slight nerf aswell, two of the most important anti-marauder units we have. Not sure where the MU is going to shift, because P seems to always come up with a new gimmick, but it's pretty scary to contemplate.
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immortals and sentries dominate marauders esp if enemy is attacking a choke, so easy to split him up and take a few down at a time
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void rays and immortals are the key. dont go pure (X) units in sc2. you will get raped
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On May 02 2010 05:05 go4it wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2010 04:35 nglt wrote:
what do u do as toss when terran has alot of marauders along with medivac + viking + siege tank support? Type gg and leave... Srsly if U let that happen youre in big troubles.. I would try to counter that with speed zeals/sentries/HT and few immortals... But dunno, never played vs that combination, sounds scary..
Sad to say that I have, I gg'd.
Feels bad man...
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On April 30 2010 21:06 folke123 wrote:
Well, if you check my replay, you could see that after killing my drone I had no good way of getting intel until my observer was out. And when I saw the marauders I had to constantly replenish my army. There was just not enough money to get up a stargate :/
You have to apply pressure early game with sentrylots early game, if you see too many marauders get gate then.
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On April 30 2010 22:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 21:52 KOFgokuon wrote:
11-12 marauders only need 2 rounds of shots to kill an immortal, if they have stim then you don't even have time to run your immortal back, and it's not like that's enuogh time for your other troops to really do that much damage
saying 1 gate robo is the way to go is over simplifying things Indeed. This is not a case of a hard counter destroying 10 of the unit it counters on it's own, that doesn't happen. Focussing fire will kill those Immortals and each one you lose has a far larger impact on your DPS than each Marauder he loses. On the matter of scouting, bear in mind vs Terran, that while you cannot get into the base early, you can against some players, get an impression of what they have by running a probe right up to the top of the ramp at the very edge of their block. Many Terran players will mass whatever unit they're... well massing, just behind the block to repel attacks, so if you see a ton of Marauder missiles coming at your probe, then you know what he's planning.
so his 1500 mineral 300 gas marauders are killing your 250 mineral 100 gas immortals? Don't say immortals are ineffective like this in these situations because that many marauders should be able to kill an immortal that easily... Get maybe 4 immortals for 1000m400g and then see what happens
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Forcefields should have life or be smaller and only targeted if the enemy manually targets them.
Anyway, a good combination of sentry zealot immortal stalker will beat pure marauders if you engage them at either player's base. If you engage them in the open, then the marauders will kite your zealots to death and probably snipe a couple immortals/stalkers as well (especially with stimp, without stimp your immorts and stalks will actually have the advantage assuming you're not grotesquely outnumbered).
The point of Forcefields is to make the line of ranged units thinner for the opponent. Normally you have 2 lines of ranged units firing upon each other like what the British did in wars back in the day. Forcefield takes up the space of the enemy's firing line, effectively only allowing a fraction of the enemy units fire upon you (the rest will be stuck behind the firing line which is mostly forcefields).
Throw in a couple guardians shields and your zealots will take 20% more beating, which is a lot considering it already takes like 17 or so shots to kill a zealot (vs 21 for an immortal) and considering zealots only cost 100 minerals.
The reason why you want stalkers is because you won't have the robo bays to spend all your money on imortals. The stalkers still do good damage against Marauders (albeit a bit fragile) so thats why you need the forcefields to cut their firing line down and also why you need the zealots to tank the shots. The immortals do a lot of damage but you should only have 2-3 of them during your 1st push.
I do have a lot of trouble against protoss doing immortal pushes. I'd post replays but I can't say I've ever done any mass marauder games against P's in 1v1.
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force feild + colossus with an mix from the gateway..
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I think this topic should be how to counter heavy marauder as Protoss and not pure marauder.
Because if your opponent were to really refuse to build anything other than marauders you could kill them with carriers or void rays without issue. Honestly, you could probably even do it with phoenixes if you wanted too.
if he has a mixed units, you might do well with zealot/sentries/colossi/phoenix balanced depending on what he's got, ideally.
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Just simple gateway mix with chargelot+forcefield+ranged totally owned pretty much all of my marauders so far even when I had a totally unchallenged expansion up with good economy and protoss countered with a way later expansion.
Forcefield split army into two halves, first one mainly constists of a thin line of marauders, those behind can only shoot zealots, stalkers+immortals remain unharmed, cheep 100 min zealots tank and do insane dps.
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The best units for countering marauders are zealots with some sentries for guardian shield. They take almost the same amount of hits to kill as immortal but they cost much less obviously. Add anything you want to provide greater dps (storm/colossus/immortal) and you should be fine as long as you can avoid kiting abuse. This can be done with charge, force field, chokes or simply forcing him to fight or lose the base.
Edit: ninjaed grrr.
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Kay guys, the opinions seems to be that you a)
build some voidrays
or b)
build speedlots with sentries and some imortals.
If you check my replay, you can see that I try to do alternative b
Could someone please give me some advice on what I do wrong?
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Couple of things I notice. Mainly I think you were just out played to be quite honest. You sit at 500+ mins/gas for a large portion of the game (even after you get a 2nd robo and 5 total gateways, by the way, 2 robo + 5 gate is waaaaayyy too much for one base, you can easily use up all of your resources by going 3 gate + robo (or even 2 gate + robo if you know the trick to using both gateway and warpgate swapping). The main thing i notice is that you tend to forget to use up your warp gate cooldowns and so your # of units tends to be lower than his most of the game, and your unused resources are higher. A player that does good macro usually doesn't let his money get over 300 in most of the early/mid game. If you find it hard to remember to use up your warpgate cooldowns, maybe you could try just using gateways instead? the time for building units is the same, you just get to frontload them with a gateway (so you get them at the beginning, rather than at the end).
I also want to note that your opponent has very good marauder control. Stim, shoot, move, shoot, move, shoot, this makes immortals damn near ineffective against them when used correctly. Better FF usage and more zealots would have helped (and you had the minerals for more zealots).
Something else, zeals really need charge to be effective at all against marauders, and rather than getting your citadel when you had 3 gate + robo and continuing to pump units + getting charge, you add another robo and 2 more gates. That's a huge money investment that you should not have had to make had you kept up on your unit production. If you notice, the terran keeps his unit production very steady and keeps adding rax until he gets to 4 rax and just keeps the pressure on, eventually expanding. Zealots in enough numbers with charge will easily take down marauders. They are tougher and do more dmg vs marauders than they take since they are light. Colossus may have been a wise move as well (rather than going 2nd robo, get a robo bay for it to get colossus + range upgrade) while continuing zeal production and getting charge, and also continuing immo production. 11 Marauders is the critical mass iirc, which means that they will take down your immos shield in 1 or 2 volleys, then kill it in a volley, while they only lose maybe 1 marauder.
Around the 15 min mark you push him back (surprise, once charge finishes!) but because he has such good macro and is on 2 base, with a 3rd gold expo coming up, at this point he is simply out producing you because you were contained and your min fields are running out. At this point its basically already good game.
*had you spent less on going nuts with 5 gateways and 2 robos (which you only utilize them about half the time, namely when you are being pushed hard, rather than continuing production on them) and more on getting charge upgrade early on, you may have stood a chance.
*had you had better force field micro and continued to produce sentries later on (i notice you going nuts with zealots later on after they get hte charge, but if you had just gotten a few sentries and gotten a few FF off at your ramp behind his units, it may have made a big difference) you might have stood a better chance as well. I notice at this point when you are trying to mass zealots that you have lots and lots of extra gas and cooldowns on your warpgates that you arent able to use due to mineral shortage. Making sentries at this point is not a bad thing, they will reduce the damage that your zealots take considerably with guardian shield and force the marauders to stand and fight with force field (although this can become difficult with someone who has good micro).
*Research and use hallucination. If you hallucinate a few immortals or even colossi, it makes your army much more intimidating than it really is, and it will lead to him trying to focus fire your hallucinated immortals down every time. Even if he realizes they are hallucinated, it might deter him from attacking your real immortals b/c it is a waste of his time to kill the hallucinated ones. If he uses a scan to check which are which, you have deprived him of a mule and therefore he loses ~270 minerals. Any way you look at it here, the hallucinations are a victory for you.
Best of luck in your future matches! Hope this critique helps. Im definitely not a mater of this game myself, so take everything i am saying with a grain of salt.
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Oh yeah, and of course, 40 apm vs 80 apm, the higher amp is going to tend to have an advantage with macro/micro. Don't sweat it, it comes with time, my apm is shitty too.
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The tough thing for protoss is that we have to add an extra tech building to get someplace that lets us counter the marauder* while the Terran can usually hold off any of our counters with his existing tech by pumping marines or tanks.
P is inherently disadvantaged vs mass marauder by their tech tree. I'm not sure there's an easy solution.
*The widely advocated speedlots always get raped by missiles for me :/
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Basically you have to hold your choke with pretty much pure stalker/immortal (those 2 units side by side in a concave, makes for easier micro and prevents clogging) until you can get the charge upgrade and balance your army. Positioning is extremely important, if you can stop your immortals from getting sniped just that bit less, thats can make a huge difference. After, when you get charge lots, just go for the epic broodwar flank.
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Thank you very much opti I will try to think of better using my gates, and keeping the resources low in the future
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This is my army vs pure marauders
~6 zealots
As many stalkers as I can get
2-3 sentries
As many immortals as one robo can pump
It works every time vs pure marauders, or any marauder heavy army.
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This is my army vs pure marauders
~6 zealots
As many stalkers as I can get
2-3 sentries
As many immortals as one robo can pump
It works every time vs pure marauders, or any marauder heavy army.
Yeah stalkers aren't as bad as people think but they require very good micro to use. you'll need to have your zealots up front and then a good amount of space between your stalkers+ sentries and your front line of zealots, this prevents him from just kiting your zealots while owning your stalkers. Marauders with very good macro will have an advantage if they have stim though.
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Isn't it better to just get the zealots, sentries, and immortals? instead of getting the stalkers I mean? what are the benefits of them?
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Anything? Void rays... Immortals... mass sentry + zeals... literally anything you'd like to do? 
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On May 03 2010 07:57 folke123 wrote:
Isn't it better to just get the zealots, sentries, and immortals? instead of getting the stalkers I mean? what are the benefits of them?
Stalkers aren't the best choice but with immortals you could make just about anything and it would rape marauders.
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On May 03 2010 07:59 Louder wrote:Anything? Void rays... Immortals... mass sentry + zeals... literally anything you'd like to do?
I tried to go mass sentry + zeals+ some imortals and fails, but then I am not very good.
I am just in the silver leauge atm
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On May 03 2010 09:29 folke123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 07:59 Louder wrote:Anything? Void rays... Immortals... mass sentry + zeals... literally anything you'd like to do? I tried to go mass sentry + zeals+ some imortals and fails, but then I am not very good. I am just in the silver leauge atm
Half of fighting the marauder ball as toss is pre-engagement positioning. You don't want to send everything head on at the marauders from one direction. You need to split your forces up. I usually bait with my ranged units in one group and then come in from a different angle with my zealots. Once the zealots in engage, I pin the marauders with forcefields.
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-Scout it early.
-Build Cannons at your exp.
-Turtle up and tech up to Collosi.
-Get Charge, Thermal Lance and Hallucinate.
-Upgrade
-Build a couple of Void Rays to harrass.
-After (or during) your harrass, push foward with a group of Collosi lead by a decent sized, sentry -heavy ground army.
-Charge Lots to absorb damage. They're the best meat shields as they cost 0 gas.
-Stalkers for extra DPS and to focus down any vikings.
-Sentries for the Force Fields and Hallucinations.
-Use your Force Fields to keep the Marauders out of range of the collosi.
-Use Hallucinate to make a few Collosi Illusions.
Mixing in Immortals never hurts.
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Opti's pretty spot on. Your opponent was definitely better than you. You should be glad that you were capable of defending against his attacks for so long when he had 500 minerals worth of units more than you right at the start.
One thing that was only briefly touched upon was your lack of/bad forcefield usage. There was at least one instance during the first attack where, if you had used your two forcefields, you could've trapped his entire marauder force in between a wall, a pylon, and your zealots. Zealot/sentry/immortal definitely does great against marauders, but when you're immortal light you do need to use good forcefields so the zealots don't just get kited to death like they were.
The very first engagement (right before your first immortal pops) went all wrong for you too. Half your army chased after the marauders and basically it put most of your zealots at half health without having done anything. Definitely wasn't a fault of the unit combo that you lost, just a fault of unit control
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I've been having trouble PvT recently too... (I random so it doesn't come up THAT often.) I won one of them just mixing in Void rays into my main army of zeal/stalker/sentry. He brought a lot of marines, but once you get 5+ voids, they're not going down easily unless he has pure marine, and then the chargelots would clean up nicely.
Still, that was one game. Going to keep trying it though to see how well it works.
But I definitely need to work on my FF usage. I always forget about it... Somehow?
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To those of you saying chargelots + sentry, do you realize how much gas it takes for both? And how much time charge needs to finish? Marauders need 60 seconds and 50/50 for shells while we need Twilight Council (150/100) and then the upgrade which takes 200/200 and about an hour?
And you want sentries on top of that? How about a mothership too?
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Sand, this thread is from beta, so it's a huge necro.
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Nice necro of a thread from beta lol. (and on your 1st post lol)
And chargelots + sentry is fairly easy to get, provided that you have completely ruled out any banshee play from the terran. Just get your second geyser before 25 and you should be golden.
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Wow, huge bump for no reason. And your first post too?
Please check the date before posting next time.
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Early game you generally push the marauders back with your zealots, allowing your stalkers to shoot the marauders. Also cupping them in with forcefield is quite good if you can. Later on you can get speedlot/HT, it kills any mix of bio terran easily.
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Why, did it hurt that i bumped it? Relax toots.
User was warned for this post
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On January 16 2011 06:58 Sandstorm9 wrote:
Why, did it hurt that i bumped it? Relax toots. Might want to read the forum rules. Mods are pretty anal here from time to time.
Bumping threads unless you have something really cool to add is generally not appreciated.
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It really depends on how many Marauders there are.
very early game (that push with 1 Marine 2 Marauders or smth) -> Zealots to tank dmg, Stalkers to deal.
early game - Zealots to tank, Stalker + Immortal to deal
mid game - Void Rays OR Speed Zealots + stalkers + Sentries
late Game - Speed Zealots + sentries + storm, maybe Colossi.
the most important part really is to have good forcefields against marauders, of course Void Rays counter those, but once it's more than 1 Base for the Terran, he'll have Vikings or a lot of marines to accomplish his Marauders and then Forcefields really are the way to go.
Greetz,
Templar
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speedlots immortals collosi sentrys are good if the terren can't kite...but kiting is easy and with a ton of maruaders pretty much anything running at them is gonna get hit by a concussiveblast
(feels like a warrior trying to beat a frostmage ina duel in world of warcraft its possible but not easy by any means)
if you dont have voids my best advice is to try to forcefield behind them in a semi circle to where they gotta run towards you to go around the edge to get away
if its pure marauder though they cant shoot air should be pretty easy to think of what to do next...if you see a buncha techlab barracks make a stargate cronoboost some voids out and catch em off gaurd...
somebody said to me last night something about archons and i said that archons suck so i must be in bronze well heres my two cents on archons
archons are supposed to be a hard counter to them but they will never be until they make em massive...but it wouldnt work anyways cuz the tech path takes forever and nobody wants to change ht's into archons before blowing their stormload it wouldnt be cost effective in anyway and you cannot mass them...you can have a huge group of marauders charging your base before you can get that far in tech so that throws that out the window
archons can take more shots from a marauder then pretty much anything but they cant get close enough to attack and you never have more then like three so they are pretty much useless
making an archon massive might help alot though since alot of protoss like to go storm against terren anyways because it tears up so many other units they have or maybe even a snare effect to counter act their snare
and dam is that upgrade cheap...grooved spines for hydra's is 150/150 but moves so awesome like stim and concussive shells combined together is the same amount
somethings not right here
Edit:damn sorry i started rambling side effect of drinking...just make some dam voidrays lol
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Voids are the best thing against marauders. Just make some defense, bunker in for a little while, then when you have some voids, go push and kill the marauders.
If you don't like voids or you can't get them then, get sentry, immortal, zealot. You have the right comp. In mind but the sentries will help so much. FF the marauders and don't let them move. Even if you have less immortals, the zealots are worthless if they end up just getting slowed and picked off. You can either have less immortals lose or 2000 mins on 20 zealots.
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About you commenting on the bump, i think if the mods find it necessary then they will take the proper measures. I'm pretty sure the mods would appreciate it if people don't make posts where they guess what the mods will do. If you have something to add to the thread then say it, otherwise leave it to the mods.
Also, this thread is pretty general, so there's not really a point in starting a new thread about this. It'll make things easier for people in the future to look up how to counter marauders PvT etc.
@OP's problem, he says chargelots / immortals don't work. Well either he simply has a much bigger army, or he needs to get rid of the Immortals. They do great but are slow and all. Mass chargelots should beat mass marauders (correct me if I'm wrong... there's probably a certain number where the rauders have the advantage due to being a big ball)
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On April 30 2010 23:28 Dr_Strange wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 21:12 go4it wrote:
Im testing speedlots + HT with few immortals against mass marauders.... Maybe that can work.. HT are not very good vs marauders. They have too much hp. Also, your lots will be in the storms.
makes me smile looking at this now
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There is no realistic* cost-effective counter for Protoss on the ground. Immortals are raped for cost in large numbers, even with no micro. If he goes mass pure marauder, get chargelots and void rays. Void Rays are awesome vs Marauders and Terran Mech. If he switches over to marine production you'll have enough Chargelots that it won't matter as he won't have the reactors needed to produce large numbers of them.
*With no micro Archons from DTs and Chargelots win in a cost for cost scenario in medium numbers, as does pure Colossi with Chargelots.
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Theres no point in bumping a thread from early beta to discuss strategy since everything has changed since then. Also don't be an asshole sandstorm9.
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EPT
