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TvZDealing with mass speedling/baneling/muta/roach

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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McSnuggles
Profile Joined April 2010
13 Posts
April 30 2010 04:57 GMT
#1
I need to admit that I'm embarrassed to be having trouble with zerg, considering how so many consider T the noskill race due to marauders, but Z is quite honestly my most difficult matchup. I learned to deal with it for quite awhile with heavy mech, and then MMM+Raven, but after my most recent game I think I've hit a wall-I basically matched econ and for awhile was ahead in terms of resource loss, and even higher in ground upgrades...but I couldn't really think of any effective way to counter what I eventually got it with-mass speedlings, banelings, roaches, and mutas.

I know a lot might say hellions, but the roaches kind of make that difficult, and banelings can still hit the bio ball while you're trying to do that.

Honest advice?

http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2776
Hi Im Mcsnuggles
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
April 30 2010 05:57 GMT
#2
I watched most of the replay but I know what your problem was:

Don't stop making scvs. You had 21 at 11 minutes and an expo building. That expo will do nothing for you because you're not even saturated in your main at 11 minutes. You should have 40 scvs if you're doing extended 1 base like that. You lost because of macro, simple as that.

That zerg was retarded. He made an inbase hatch for some reason before expanding. However, you played into his hands by running up the ramp with a handful of early pressure units. You even saw his lack of a fast expand and STILL moved out with a pressure force. You should've just bunkered your natural and expanded right there and you would've been so massively ahead if his attack failed that you would've automatically won. Never ever ever pressure a zerg who's choosing to 1 base.

Also I don't recall ever seeing a scan go down in zerg's main. You would've seen the spire and not lost 2 banshees for nothing. Making those banshees was very questionable to begin with since you took SO long to get them out.

As for dealing with that composition, I don't have any specific answers, but marines + tanks with medivac/raven support should be sufficient. You really need tanks to clear out roach and sieged tanks decimate banelings. They also shield your marines.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
McSnuggles
Profile Joined April 2010
13 Posts
April 30 2010 06:03 GMT
#3
I set down two or three scans in the zerg base, but you're right about the spire-at the times it would have been relevant, I missed it. The banshees were purely because I didn't notice it, and since I thought all he had was pure ground I could get away with it.

So FE bunker versus 1 base zerg?

And yeah, one of my constant problems is scv production. Looking back, I realize that. More SCVs and I could have sustained more production/etc. I got into a bad mindset that made me lose track of what I was doing resource collector wise. I even noticed my lack of scvs multiple times, yet didn't remedy the problem.

Can you really fight a zerg like that while forgoing marauders? My only problem with that is that if any lings get to your forces, you're suddenly friendly fire slaughtering your own men.

Hi Im Mcsnuggles
MLG_Wiggin
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States767 Posts
April 30 2010 06:07 GMT
#4
You can pretty much do anything against 1 base Zerg as long as you survive his initial all-in (watch for baneling busts). Ling/Bling/Roach/Muta? I'd suggest Hellion/Marauder/Thor. Hellions, properly microed, can totally clean up Lings (and do a number on the Blings). Marauders slaughter Blings and Roaches, and Thors are not only good when protected against Roaches, but also totally out-class Mutas.
@DBWiggin, SC2 ref
McSnuggles
Profile Joined April 2010
13 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-30 06:13:17
April 30 2010 06:12 GMT
#5
Oddly enough, hellion/rauder/thor was my old standby, though it also included tanks. Im wondering about switching to that as a main build because I hate the typical MMM ball, and the exclusion of tanks would save me own forces from splash damage and make my force a tad more mobile.


Edit: Also, thanks. I never really knew what the proper course of action against a 1 base zerg was-I normally just pressured and treated them like a FEing zerg, which is likely the reason for a lot of my losses. Knowing to basically bunker down FE should help out.
Hi Im Mcsnuggles
MLG_Wiggin
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States767 Posts
April 30 2010 06:18 GMT
#6
It's not a bad idea. Mech is very hard to deal with as Zerg (a little easier since patch). Your biggest problems will be against Roach/Hydra/Infestor (with neural parasite on your thors). The usual MMM counter of Ling/Bling/Muta gets rocked pretty hard by Mech, but a lot of players just spam out Roach/Hydra anyway. Mech does give you a lot of annoying harassment options though, like Thor drops and Hellions tearing up mineral lines.
@DBWiggin, SC2 ref
McSnuggles
Profile Joined April 2010
13 Posts
April 30 2010 06:22 GMT
#7
I actually stopped using mech due to the effectiveness of neural parasite and the fact that I got rocked by mass roach hydra despite having a massive amount of tanks, hellions, and thors. Im thinking a larger focus on marauders over tanks might help deal with that, however. Hellions do well against hydras, after all, and thors do one shot them. More rauders also makes it easier to snipe parasiting infestors.
Hi Im Mcsnuggles
ROOTdrewbie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1392 Posts
April 30 2010 06:26 GMT
#8
On April 30 2010 13:57 McSnuggles wrote:
I need to admit that I'm embarrassed to be having trouble with zerg, considering how so many consider T the noskill race due to marauders,


t is the hardest race... you crazy? Anyways i also have a LOT of problems dealing with this unit combo, i think that its really cost effective for the zerg and sooo hard to beat straight up, i find the best things to do are mass expos with planetary fortresses and go for drops and harass plays, also viking/banshee combo is good if you are sure that you are well defended from his ground force
www.root-gaming.com
McSnuggles
Profile Joined April 2010
13 Posts
April 30 2010 06:28 GMT
#9
On April 30 2010 15:26 drewbie.root wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2010 13:57 McSnuggles wrote:
I need to admit that I'm embarrassed to be having trouble with zerg, considering how so many consider T the noskill race due to marauders,


t is the hardest race... you crazy? Anyways i also have a LOT of problems dealing with this unit combo, i think that its really cost effective for the zerg and sooo hard to beat straight up, i find the best things to do are mass expos with planetary fortresses and go for drops and harass plays, also viking/banshee combo is good if you are sure that you are well defended from his ground force


My main is T, and the only reason I say that is because everyone on general forums [lol general forums] basically just says LOL ROCKIT BLACK DUDE T IS OP HOW DO YOU LOSE!?

Also I watch Orbs stream sometimes and everyone, including him and his viewers, just bitch about how powerful they perceive T to be
Hi Im Mcsnuggles
MLG_Wiggin
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States767 Posts
April 30 2010 06:29 GMT
#10
Yeah, Marauders are still the backbone of Terran Mech. I've often seen people go mech without even including tanks since Hellions are so effective against Hydra, Marauders are marginally effective against Hydra and very good against Roach/Infestor, and Thor's totally counter Mutas.
@DBWiggin, SC2 ref
McSnuggles
Profile Joined April 2010
13 Posts
April 30 2010 06:36 GMT
#11
Sounds about right. Rauder Thor Hellion it is, with stim and medivacs of course. The exclusion of tanks should definitely help, due to my biggest problem with mech being that since you eventually have to take the fight to them, they'll see you coming before you reach them, thus making it easy for them to hit you between sieging of your tanks. A army without a reliance on a setup like that should make it much easier for me to function, as well as freeing up lots of gas.
Hi Im Mcsnuggles
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
April 30 2010 06:46 GMT
#12
On April 30 2010 15:29 w_Ender_w wrote:
Yeah, Marauders are still the backbone of Terran Mech. I've often seen people go mech without even including tanks since Hellions are so effective against Hydra, Marauders are marginally effective against Hydra and very good against Roach/Infestor, and Thor's totally counter Mutas.


I'm not usually one to bitch about semantics, but if you're making marauders it's not mech by definition. Mech implies factory-centric play. Mara/thor/hellion is not mech play. It's sort of its own beast. Mech play is tank/thor/hellion and mass roach with a handful of hydra is what you do vs that.

Mara/thor/hellion is weak in that it can't change up composition to match zerg. I feel that the way to fight it is spam one unit like crazy, like roaches. Burn up all the units it counters (hellions/thors) and switch to whatever he's weak to and them spam that like crazy. It's like fighting Tmech in BW. Spam hydra like mad and then switch to mass muta when he undercommits to goliaths. Terran has to make sure his ball is pretty strong vs everything because he can't suddenly flood in 15 goliaths at once. Same here. Another thing to note: Don't make the mistake of target firing thors either. I see people do that all day, even really good players. Thors have really low dps per hp. Single thors are not scary, you can flood in a few slowlings even and that'll finish off the thors. Burn the hellions and maras first always.

Also, you CAN get mutas vs that mix if he's light on the thors or overextending himself. Thors are beatable with mutas if you outnumber them badly enough. In that case you DO want to burn down the thors since hellions and marauders can't hit air.

Not sure why I just ranted about something unrelated to the OP...

Also drewbie is right, T is by far the hardest race to play at this point. I think perhaps things will change as more about this game is understood, but it doesn't surprise me since T units are so micro-intensive.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
MLG_Wiggin
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States767 Posts
April 30 2010 06:54 GMT
#13
On April 30 2010 15:46 Floophead_III wrote:
I'm not usually one to bitch about semantics, but if you're making marauders it's not mech by definition. Mech implies factory-centric play. Mara/thor/hellion is not mech play. It's sort of its own beast. Mech play is tank/thor/hellion and mass roach with a handful of hydra is what you do vs that.

Mara/thor/hellion is weak in that it can't change up composition to match zerg. I feel that the way to fight it is spam one unit like crazy, like roaches. Burn up all the units it counters (hellions/thors) and switch to whatever he's weak to and them spam that like crazy. It's like fighting Tmech in BW. Spam hydra like mad and then switch to mass muta when he undercommits to goliaths. Terran has to make sure his ball is pretty strong vs everything because he can't suddenly flood in 15 goliaths at once. Same here. Another thing to note: Don't make the mistake of target firing thors either. I see people do that all day, even really good players. Thors have really low dps per hp. Single thors are not scary, you can flood in a few slowlings even and that'll finish off the thors. Burn the hellions and maras first always.

Also, you CAN get mutas vs that mix if he's light on the thors or overextending himself. Thors are beatable with mutas if you outnumber them badly enough. In that case you DO want to burn down the thors since hellions and marauders can't hit air.

Not sure why I just ranted about something unrelated to the OP...

Also drewbie is right, T is by far the hardest race to play at this point. I think perhaps things will change as more about this game is understood, but it doesn't surprise me since T units are so micro-intensive.


Ah, you're completely right. I guess it isn't really a technical full Mech play, but it's what I see a lot and it seems to be what players mean when they say mech. I don't think I've ever run up against a true mech build of just Hellion/Tank/Thor, nor do I really think it'd be that dangerous to face.

I'd never thought of just spamming full on Roaches or something like that to blast whatever it counters, then follow up with whatever you need to kill whats left; I always tend to try to optimize my army to hit handle each thing he has, and not really think in waves like that. You certainly might have something there.

I don't know if I completely agree about Hellion/Marauder/Thor being inflexible, insofar as it covers nearly every unit combination you can push out; the flexibility comes in what he emphasizes with his unit composition. Roach/Infestor/Ultralisk trouble? Go Marauder heavy. Hydra/Ling trouble? Hellion heavy. Mutalisk trouble? Thor heavy (I really think of Thor's as almost mainly useful as a 'cheap' Mutalisk counter since you only need to maintain a few to prevent Muta's from being effective army v army, and all the other units you have hit ground only).

As far as Muta's against Mech... again, you're right. You CAN get them, but they can easily be rendered ineffective and are a huge economy sink if he's playing correctly.
@DBWiggin, SC2 ref
lew
Profile Joined April 2009
Belgium205 Posts
April 30 2010 07:09 GMT
#14
I got exactly the same problem vs speedling/muta/baneling
sadyque
Profile Joined April 2010
Romania251 Posts
April 30 2010 13:59 GMT
#15
Why not build 2 ghosts and just play like before? Emp infestors and thors+helion+mara>bane+speedling+muta+no energy infestors.
Also ghosts are not bad dps wise vs lings/mutas considering u can use the rest of your energy to snipe.
60 bucks? But it has Kerrigans Boobs in three god damn dimensions. Do you know how long i have waited for this?
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
April 30 2010 14:48 GMT
#16
Also drewbie is right, T is by far the hardest race to play at this point. I think perhaps things will change as more about this game is understood, but it doesn't surprise me since T units are so micro-intensive.


Not to side track the thread, but it depends on the skill level which is probably why you see bitching. Zerg can be really really unforgiving to players because of the way spawn larva works in comparison to the other macro abilities. Missing a MULE puts you behind until you spawn it and use the extra resources it provides. Every second you are missing spawn larva is a second of irreparable damage. If the zerg player isn't hitting their spawn larva consistently then their force isn't really going to outmatch the Terran and the Terran can probably just A-move an MMM ball to win.

When players are skilled and don't miss spawn larva then the complaint doesn't apply and T could easily be considered the hardest race.
Logo
lew
Profile Joined April 2009
Belgium205 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-05 15:30:46
May 05 2010 15:30 GMT
#17
I am still having problems against this and I never saw a replay where someone won against muta baneling... This is just ridicilous. I win 2 matches easy vs someone, and the third game he goes muta baneling roach and I get destroyed so easely. You can't properly micro against banelings supported by other ground units, that's just impossible...
Frost.stropheum
Profile Joined April 2010
United States71 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-05 15:40:51
May 05 2010 15:39 GMT
#18
My lips are sealed
lew
Profile Joined April 2009
Belgium205 Posts
May 05 2010 15:46 GMT
#19
Another thing to add: I seriously hate the thor. Why don't give back the goliath? The thor is just way too slow and big imo.
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
May 05 2010 15:53 GMT
#20
On May 06 2010 00:30 lew wrote:
I am still having problems against this and I never saw a replay where someone won against muta baneling... This is just ridicilous. I win 2 matches easy vs someone, and the third game he goes muta baneling roach and I get destroyed so easely. You can't properly micro against banelings supported by other ground units, that's just impossible...


Muta/baneling only punishes terrans who rely on marines for AA.

Against muta/baneling you make enough thors to counter the muta, and the rest should be MedaMarauder with infantry upgrades.

Or, you can go ravens w/ seeker missile instead of thors; but they take longer to get
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