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On April 04 2010 17:33 Storm) wrote:
pro tip. APM is so worthless in sc2. Im platinum i average 100. Just need enough to macro and do basic shit. MUCH MUCH MUCH less apm required then sc1
Rofl as if you need to be good at all to reach to platinum at this point in the beta at all, the macro mechanics when perfected will easily take the top players to over 300 apm when they start to perfect the mechanics side. You can't expect that to happen right from the start ffs.
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On April 04 2010 18:51 mOnion wrote:
producing units is a matter of keeping your money low which is DEFINITELY a problem for beginning players and even people who've been playing for years because its difficult to have the apm to engage a battle, go back to your base, make shit, and go back to the battle.
and i dont know what your 2nd paragraph is saying ^_^ so i choose to not address it!
Nah, i m talking about just the producing unit part. Example u press 4 where all your rax are and hotkey for marines tab to the others and produce a marauder + set the waypoint on the minimap. Thats very very easy to do even while engaging in battles..
The part you talking about is macroing and not producing units.. Macroing is obviously the hardest and most important part of the game, but not producing units lol..
On April 04 2010 18:57 Puosu wrote:
Rofl as if you need to be good at all to reach to platinum at this point in the beta at all, the macro mechanics when perfected will easily take the top players to over 300 apm when they start to perfect the mechanics side. You can't expect that to happen right from the start ffs.
100% agree.
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I'd have to disagree with you Dna. Yes, it's true that if a player focuses on building units, then he can build whatever he wants whenever he wants. The true masters are the ones who can attack, scout, and do advanced micromanagement of their units while simultaneously building the correct units at the correct times, which is even more important in SC2 apparently given the hard(er than sc1)-counter system. If a player keeps pumping one unit, but the other manages to switch to another unit tech that counters, while simultaneously keeping his opponent occupied with his current units, he will win the game.
There is also a lot that goes into producing units. Keeping your minerals and gas flowing, preventing yourself from getting supply blocked, having the right techs, upgrades and so on. It is too simplistic in a game as technical as this to simply think of building units as clicking on a building and hitting the right icon or corresponding hot key.
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Just like in SC1 Terran requires more APM than the other races. That's not to say Terran is weaker but to reach similar potential you need to be a better player. When you have 2 players with 250+ APM fighting each other it makes no difference however with a couple of peeps with 50 APM then it's a decent disadvantage for the Terrans.
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High APM is very much needed in SC2, especially when you wan't to micro well in battles and still fully utilize the Macro-Mechanics. I think Pro's will soon have the same APM that was needed to play SC1, which is around 300...
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well, i can only give you pointers that i myself find useful, but maybe they'll help you along the way. firstly, don't listen to the people saying you must do this and that a certain way, the most important thing is being comfortable with your own setup. pretty sure people would call you retarded if you told them you played left handed mouse and right handed keyboard, but guess what, there are korean progamers that do this (hoejja, and someone else). nonetheless, having said that, there does tend to be more efficient ways of doing certain things. but i mean, if you're at 40 APM now, then i don't think "pro" tips are going to do a great deal for you anyways. i think we should just start off with the basics.
personally, i'd start off with a full size keyboard with a proper layout, but if you're stuck on a laptop, then you might just have to make best of what you have.
What are you guys doing at the very beginning of the game, with all your clicking. Are you randomly pushing buttons, or is there a purpose? How do you guys press your cntrl group when setting groups? Cuz it easily takes me about 3-5 sec just to press cntrl + a number. I have to use my thumb to press the cntrl key. I see top players set their cntrl groups in a split second.
i personally am opposed to simply mindlessly spamming keys just to make my APM appear high on the APM meter in replays. i try to do things that actually keep my attention on the game.
for example, i play zerg, so at the start of the game i will hotkey my hatchery to group 5, and my overlord to group 1. then i will press 11 to switch to my overlord, issue it a move command to where i want to scout, and also quickly look at what's in it's vision. then i will press 55 and return to my hatchery/base, check for larvae spawning, and check my minerals to build another drone when i can afford to, and set the miner rally to an empty mineral patch. i'll repeat the process of pressing 55, 11, 55 ,11 very quickly, to keep my attention up from the start of the game. when i send out my scouting drone, i will set the drone to group 1, and my overlord to group 2. i'll then alternate my attention between groups 1, 2 and 5 (by pressing 11, 22, 55). it's important to note that unless you're in a battle, most attention must be paid to your base, and try not to miss miner production, and place your buildings as soon as you have the minerals to build them.
so, in short, i am keeping my attention in 2-3 places at once, while keeping an eye on my minerals so as to not miss a beat. the reasoning behind this is it carries on later in the game when i am focusing my attention between my army/armies, and my base/s.
other things people do is rapidly select their miners with the cursor while assigning/switching between control groups. the idea behind this is to keep yourself in the mindset of executing actions rapidly. that and also physically keeping your hands "warmed up" for fast movement.
so there are two basics ideas that "spamming" achieves. keeping your attention focused on multiple areas at a time, and keeping your actual execution as fast as possible through spamming needless actions very quickly.
what you need to do is find out what sort of spamming works best for you. i'm basically always trying to do something productive with my spamming.
How do you keep yourself organized in your mid and late game? I tend to be very unorganized, forgetting to cntrl group stuff, especially when things get very intense. My buildings tend to be everywhere in my main base, and adding more, I just put it anywhere there is space. Also, my troops tend to get spread out due to defending against harrasments and such.
i think most people will agree more on this point. you need to assign control groups to your main army (the stuff you can simply attack move with), your casters (units that you need to specifically use abilities with), and each of your bases + production facilities. depending on your race, the more "efficient" ways of doing this will vary. so it might help if you tell us what race you play first, then we can help you figure out something more definitive.
some tips to keep in mind though.
- group (both control group and actual building location) similar production facilities together. it's important to add newly produced buildings into existing control groups, and to set their rally points.
- rally all your production facilities to the most convenient place. eg, the front of your base, where your army is containing your opponent, etc.
- add newly produced units to a control group as soon they are produced. this will help you keep track of "lost" units, by simply hitting the group hotkey and issuing a move command to where the bulk of your army is.
if your base is a mess, try watching some replays/etc of top players and take note of their building placements. a neatly planned base will help you keep track of things, and also a well designed base will be less open to harassment.
anyways, if you need some further explanation on things. let us know =]
PS: wow long post. i'm on my laptop with nothing else to do really though, haha. fyi, this is just my thoughts on this, and other peoples thoughts would help too!
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at the start of games after I set a couple drones to 1/3 I am just doing random spam clicking just so that when I watch the replay I can see if I can beat my record (Over 600apm spam lol) then about 3-4 minutes into the game I stop spamming almost completely and just do meaningful clicks. As far as setting control groups goes I set 1-4 with my thumb on the ctrl key and anything past that with my pinky finger on the ctrl key.
When it comes to keeping organized mid/late game I just have different control groups for units with different functions. IE mutas in group 1 corruptors in 2 roaches in 3 speedlings in 4 infestors in 5. I prioritize the groups based on how I plan on using them. Normally for me mutas are the main harrass unit so they get to be group 1 since for me, it's faster to press.
EDIT: just so you know where I am coming from my APM is around 180 when I spam and around 120 when I don't spam (This is throughout the entirety of a match). Not the highest by any means but still pretty good I'd say.
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150 and 350? Are those numbers average or current? Neither is important, in my opinion.
Are you doing what you need to do to win? Are there holes in your micro and macro you need to plug? If you're doing what you need to be doing when you need to be doing them, current apm of 0 is fine.
The way the number's generated comes with such a large grain of salt. I don't really bother with it.
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On April 04 2010 21:49 Kanan wrote:
150 and 350? Are those numbers average or current? Neither is important, in my opinion.
Are you doing what you need to do to win? Are there holes in your micro and macro you need to plug? If you're doing what you need to be doing when you need to be doing them, current apm of 0 is fine.
The way the number's generated comes with such a large grain of salt. I don't really bother with it.
He's looking for advice as to what he is not doing that the top players are doing. It doesn't matter how smart of a player you are if your overall apm is 40 or less there is no possible way you could beat me (And I am not super great or anything). Honestly I could play idra right now and rape him till he raged harder than he normally does if he had a apm cap of 40. This is in either SC1 or 2 btw.
What the OP is wanting is an explanation on what higher rated people are doing when their APM is double/triple++ of his. He's also asking for ways to improve his organizational skills in game because he gets mixed up.
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There are people in this thread saying APM only needs to be about 100 to play perfectly in SC2. Well don't listen to them, because they're wrong, and most likely they don't have a very high APM themselves. If your APM is just like 40, the best thing you can do is keep practicing and get the build orders down. APM should naturally increase on its own with practice. You could also try examining your hotkeys & keybindings.
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Isnt the APM that you see in sc2 game kind of wrong?? Since the game settings is on fastest or faster w/e Shouldnt the apm you see be higher regardless?
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On April 04 2010 23:16 heaven- wrote:
Isnt the APM that you see in sc2 game kind of wrong?? Since the game settings is on fastest or faster w/e Shouldnt the apm you see be higher regardless?
lets pretend that BW doesnt exist and that other speeds on SC2 dont exist either!
isolating sc2 to itself and using the current apm counter needs to happen, otherwise its gonna be another 10 years of "well my apm in BW was..." which will get old.
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I think the OP focus on "organization" shows that he's not just being an APM monkey. I try to keep my buildings in big long rows, and most mains have plenty of space for this in SC2.
Another tip for buildings, Place all your Supply's together touching, and in big clumps or rows. They will take up less space like this, behind your minerals or along the edges of your main (for sight) and leave the center clear for other buildings.
For grouping, make it part of your "spam" routine. I know its controversial whether or not you should spam, but early, just keep re assigning your CC and your scv's and getting fast. Also, if your main army is in 2, hold shift and add units AS they come out of the barracks, especially in early game. Then Re-Assign the new bigger unit group to 2. This will get you doing it habitually and make it faster when things get "hectic".
A lot of SC is just making things a reflex, when you get new units, you hold shift, add, re assign- as with new buildings- you hold shift, add, and re assign ALL while you're thinking about else- because its reflex.
The more of these reflexes you set up, grouping and building placement, the more time you'll have to think about tactics etc. Note that most pro-gamer APM in BW was constantly assigning and re-assigning unit control groups. This is almost certain to make it a reflex.
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apm issomething you need to work on. Its uselss for me to give you my hotkeys since its preference,
But i can advise you not click 10X when you move or attack move, hotkey your buildings, upgrades, The drone your about to build with, overlords and obs, and just find a pattern.\
DONT WATCH YOUR UNITS MOVE AROUND, attack move/move Then go do something!! LOL
Hate watching people at PC BANG just watching their armies move around HAHA
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On April 04 2010 22:10 Perseverance wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 21:49 Kanan wrote:
150 and 350? Are those numbers average or current? Neither is important, in my opinion.
Are you doing what you need to do to win? Are there holes in your micro and macro you need to plug? If you're doing what you need to be doing when you need to be doing them, current apm of 0 is fine.
The way the number's generated comes with such a large grain of salt. I don't really bother with it. He's looking for advice as to what he is not doing that the top players are doing. It doesn't matter how smart of a player you are if your overall apm is 40 or less there is no possible way you could beat me (And I am not super great or anything). Honestly I could play idra right now and rape him till he raged harder than he normally does if he had a apm cap of 40. This is in either SC1 or 2 btw. What the OP is wanting is an explanation on what higher rated people are doing when their APM is double/triple++ of his. He's also asking for ways to improve his organizational skills in game because he gets mixed up.
And I'm saying apm has no direct correlation with how well you're organized in the game. If you want to improve your game, by all means focus on specific things like keeping your money low or micro on certain units like the sentry. There is no point in saying "I need higher apm for the sake of higher apm." If you want to improve your apm, just spam one or two buttons straight as hard as you can, guaranteed 300+.
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Thanks guys for your help. First off, I'm more of a terran player, I play the other two races for fun, and get an idea of what their weakness are. I play 2v2 the most.
Yeah, hotkey setup is not my issue. I have my set up that works for me that I can press my button without thinking. Build orders are not an issue, I have a few strats that I been using. My short game is not much of an issue. Defending the initial rush, and me pushing are my strong point, because the army size and the initial choices and decisions on what to do are minimal. I can micro quite well during my short game. During the mid to late game, this is where I try to adapt to the situations, and managing large armies while trying to defend that harrasment or drop. This requires higher apm, multitasking, and doing things without thinking, but on reflexes. This is my weakness.
Example, When I just start attacking, my opponent decides to do a drop. I can't seem to focus on my attack on his base, while trying to defend that drop at the same time. I have to sacrifice one or the other, so I tend to focus on my attack trying to destroy his base, while not focusing on my own base, and let it get destroyed too. I still use my hotkeys to produce troops, but focusing on two things at once, I can't do. So overall its a race to see who can kill that final building. Therefore, having higher apm improves to multitask better, which may help me in these stages.
Cursor and foxmeep are dead on on what I'm asking. What are these high end players doing, that I am not doing, to help me increase my reflexes, apm, etc in the mid to late game? I'll keep working on it, especially what cursor and foxmeep are saying. I'll work on reassigning my army cntrl group as units are produced, which seems to be most common thing ppl don't do, because I tend to set my groups only when I'm about to attack. The reason is I'm thinking of trying to set my cntrl group of my army, instead of it just being automatic.
Overall multitasking based on reflexes is the one hardest thing I can think of for me as well as for most. Also you can think of this game as a form of entropy. As the your game progresses, it becomes more chaotic.
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ctrl keys are for noobs assign ctrl to your middle mouse button and you will never go back
lol? ctrl with pinkey is really good, once you get the hang of it. at the start of the game, I usually just spam drag select over my gatherers, and spam the button to make workers when I have almost enough minerals.
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On April 05 2010 04:52 phrexis wrote: Cursor and foxmeep are dead on on what I'm asking. What are these high end players doing, that I am not doing, to help me increase my reflexes, apm, etc in the mid to late game? I'll keep working on it, especially what cursor and foxmeep are saying. I'll work on reassigning my army cntrl group as units are produced, which seems to be most common thing ppl don't do, because I tend to set my groups only when I'm about to attack. The reason is I'm thinking of trying to set my cntrl group of my army, instead of it just being automatic.
Overall multitasking based on reflexes is the one hardest thing I can think of for me as well as for most. Also you can think of this game as a form of entropy. As the your game progresses, it becomes more chaotic.
Most people have set control groups and they don't have to think about which button to push for what during the battle. It cuts down on the "o I forgot i changed #3" errors by quite a bit. I'd suggest thinking hard about how you want to set it up and use it every game.
Most people multitask by switching constantly between the two battles and use a 2-3 second window to micro something in that site. Add in production at the same time, that's when apm really sky rockets.
Sounds like you already know what to do. Just needs more practice.
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It may sound a bit harsh, but anyone saying that 100 APM is enough is a casual player. To play Starcraft competitively (SC1 or SC2), a minimum of 150 is required, and the more - the better.
I have begun preparing to SC2 in 2007, and the process contains:
1) Learning to type with one hand without looking at the keyboard
2) Memorizing all hotkeys
3) Studying UI tricks, for example "cloning" (look for a thread here on TL)
4) Playing Micro UMS maps (can't be done for SC2 yet ;( )
5) Training APM using special programs. For example, every day I spend from 30 minutes to a hour in Clickmer - it's quite old but useful, download here.
The sad thing that will all this stuff I'm still slow ;(
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Wow, I sure hope you're tearing it up by now.
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EPT
