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As Im watching videos of high skilled player, I noticed most great players have apm of about 150 and up to 350. Mine as well as most average players are up around 40 apm.
I know high apm benefits players especially during mid and late game when you're hassling around with multiple expansions, harrasment, etc. Which is my major down fall when playing this game. My short game is decent, but mid and late game I'm horrid.
What are you guys doing at the very beginning of the game, with all your clicking. Are you randomly pushing buttons, or is there a purpose? How do you guys press your cntrl group when setting groups? Cuz it easily takes me about 3-5 sec just to press cntrl + a number. I have to use my thumb to press the cntrl key. I see top players set their cntrl groups in a split second.
How do you keep yourself organized in your mid and late game? I tend to be very unorganized, forgetting to cntrl group stuff, especially when things get very intense. My buildings tend to be everywhere in my main base, and adding more, I just put it anywhere there is space. Also, my troops tend to get spread out due to defending against harrasments and such.
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You press the control key with your left pinkey. How the hell do you do it with your thumb?
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ctrl keys are for noobs assign ctrl to your middle mouse button and you will never go back
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Well, with a laptop there is an Fn key on the outside, Cntrl on the inside, makes it difficult. Also, dislocated my pinkey a long while ago, and is never the same again.
Edit: You can assign keys in SC2 currently? I have yet found how too change my key bindings.
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Keep your stuff together and you will do better, whether it be your production buildings, troops, depots, hotkeys, whatever. Just keep it together.
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NICE nver thought about the middle mouse key my mouse is the logitech lx8 I have 2 side buttons I disabled because they were pissing me off maybe I'll reassign one of them. I think for organization keep stuff together and wall off your main by surrounding it tightly inside with other buildings. Also just practice build orders a lot, after you know a few really well then you can start being creative.
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On April 04 2010 11:18 andynewin wrote:
NICE nver thought about the middle mouse key my mouse is the logitech lx8 I have 2 side buttons I disabled because they were pissing me off maybe I'll reassign one of them.
dont do it when i used those buttons on that mouse...they were just placed so horribly for constant usage that it just killed my ability (what little of it i had at the time) to micro
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The beginning APM in the first minute or so of the game is all spam, don't look into that. Its having the first 4 hotkeys or something all being the nexus/CC/hatchery and selecting the workers over and over. If you do that and constantly hit the first 4 numbers with 4 fingers of your left hand and selecting workers you'll hit 300 APM in the first minute. Its a good way to keep your fingers warm at the start.
As for mid and late game, I like to already have a hotkey set up in mind. Since i'm a protoss player, I have all of my nexus' (nexi?) set to 1, grunt army set to 2, 3-sentries, 4- high templar. W is warpgates automatically and if I have a robotics at that point it gets assigned the 2 slot and army people move to being 3, 4, and 5. Thats generally how I work hotkeys.
Building placement just takes practice. You'll notice as you play more and more that you just end up having more time since it requires less time to perform an action since you've practiced it so much. You can use that time to spend a half second choosing a specific spot for whatever building your building. You can also just watch some pro games and see the general layout of the buildings they have and that'll give you an idea for how to work it. For example, a lot of terrans have all of their factories or barracks layed out so they all fit within one game screen and won't block any units.
Hope this helps.
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just put 4 units on ctrl 1-4 then piano key through them while selecting your scvs randomly with your mouse by boxing them real quick -> 500 apm
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there's a lot of terrible advice in this thread. DONT map CTRL to ur middle mouse button. and DONT make ur nexus/cc/hatch "1" on ur hotkeys
1) its called mechanics, you'll get better with practice.
2) use your pinky to hit ctrl, and set the HK with whichever finger you prefer, unless your going to set something to like 098, then go to the right side of the keyboard, use your thumb to hit CTRL and your middle finger to hit the number.
3) early game is just spam to stay warm. dont do that until you're set in your mechanics or you'll fuck urself up. its actually possible to be bad at spam.
4) if youre accidentally hitting the wrong key (ala Fn/windows/caps lock) buy yourself a cheap 10$ keyboard with some nice responsiveness to it and pluck out the keys that arent important like this
http://starfeeder.gameriot.com/blogs/Tasteless/Secrets-of-StarCraft-Pro-Gamers-The-competitive-keyboard
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pro tip. APM is so worthless in sc2. Im platinum i average 100. Just need enough to macro and do basic shit. MUCH MUCH MUCH less apm required then sc1
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On April 04 2010 17:33 Storm) wrote:
pro tip. APM is so worthless in sc2. Im platinum i average 100. Just need enough to macro and do basic shit. MUCH MUCH MUCH less apm required then sc1
Totally depends on the race you play. Z for examplei s the high apm race, easy 150+apm 100% usefull. Everything below is simply not ideal, setting tumors setting all the overlords, using 3+queens all the time etc you ll never do that with 100apm.
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On April 04 2010 17:42 TheDna wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 17:33 Storm) wrote:
pro tip. APM is so worthless in sc2. Im platinum i average 100. Just need enough to macro and do basic shit. MUCH MUCH MUCH less apm required then sc1 Totally depends on the race you play. Z for examplei s the high apm race, easy 150+apm 100% usefull. Everything below is simply not ideal, setting tumors setting all the overlords, using 3+queens all the time etc you ll never do that with 100apm.
uh, actually at the moment terran (going bio) requires the highest apm because they have the shortest unit build times and have the disadvantage of being able to mass queue
i actually think Zerg is the slowest race right now because all you have to do is worry about your queens and have every hatchery (which is like 3 unit producing structures TOTAL) on one hotkey.
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On April 04 2010 17:42 TheDna wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 17:33 Storm) wrote:
pro tip. APM is so worthless in sc2. Im platinum i average 100. Just need enough to macro and do basic shit. MUCH MUCH MUCH less apm required then sc1 Totally depends on the race you play. Z for examplei s the high apm race, easy 150+apm 100% usefull. Everything below is simply not ideal, setting tumors setting all the overlords, using 3+queens all the time etc you ll never do that with 100apm.
you sure can if you dont waste it on shit like spamboxing or spammoving your units, spam selecting your buildings etc
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On April 04 2010 17:45 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 17:42 TheDna wrote:On April 04 2010 17:33 Storm) wrote:
pro tip. APM is so worthless in sc2. Im platinum i average 100. Just need enough to macro and do basic shit. MUCH MUCH MUCH less apm required then sc1 Totally depends on the race you play. Z for examplei s the high apm race, easy 150+apm 100% usefull. Everything below is simply not ideal, setting tumors setting all the overlords, using 3+queens all the time etc you ll never do that with 100apm. uh, actually at the moment terran (going bio) requires the highest apm because they have the shortest unit build times and have the disadvantage of being able to mass queue i actually think Zerg is the slowest race right now because all you have to do is worry about your queens and have every hatchery (which is like 3 unit producing structures TOTAL) on one hotkey.
protoss requires more apm to macro well, terran requires more apm micro-wise, at least in pvt. Terran requires more micro in pvt battles then toss because of the whole stim+kite thing
pvz may have more micro then tvz though, since you'll always want to be making each unit hit specific enemy units to maximize damage
the race that requires the most apm overall is probably terran, though thats not saying its difficult to play, or that it even requires a huge amount more apm like it did in bw
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On April 04 2010 17:45 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 17:42 TheDna wrote:On April 04 2010 17:33 Storm) wrote:
pro tip. APM is so worthless in sc2. Im platinum i average 100. Just need enough to macro and do basic shit. MUCH MUCH MUCH less apm required then sc1 Totally depends on the race you play. Z for examplei s the high apm race, easy 150+apm 100% usefull. Everything below is simply not ideal, setting tumors setting all the overlords, using 3+queens all the time etc you ll never do that with 100apm. uh, actually at the moment terran (going bio) requires the highest apm because they have the shortest unit build times and have the disadvantage of being able to mass queue i actually think Zerg is the slowest race right now because all you have to do is worry about your queens and have every hatchery (which is like 3 unit producing structures TOTAL) on one hotkey.
If you watch the check interview for example he choose Zerg because the high apm fits him well.. I dont think producing has anything to do with apm as its never a apm problem.
I think you totally underestimate what top players are doing or what has to be done to be good apm wise it has never anything to do with producing units. Even good 70-80apm players will produce units 100% of the time even in big fights.
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On April 04 2010 17:58 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 17:45 mOnion wrote:On April 04 2010 17:42 TheDna wrote:On April 04 2010 17:33 Storm) wrote:
pro tip. APM is so worthless in sc2. Im platinum i average 100. Just need enough to macro and do basic shit. MUCH MUCH MUCH less apm required then sc1 Totally depends on the race you play. Z for examplei s the high apm race, easy 150+apm 100% usefull. Everything below is simply not ideal, setting tumors setting all the overlords, using 3+queens all the time etc you ll never do that with 100apm. uh, actually at the moment terran (going bio) requires the highest apm because they have the shortest unit build times and have the disadvantage of being able to mass queue i actually think Zerg is the slowest race right now because all you have to do is worry about your queens and have every hatchery (which is like 3 unit producing structures TOTAL) on one hotkey. protoss requires more apm to macro well, terran requires more apm micro-wise, at least in pvt. Terran requires more micro in pvt battles then toss because of the whole stim+kite thing pvz may have more micro then tvz though, since you'll always want to be making each unit hit specific enemy units to maximize damage the race that requires the most apm overall is probably terran, though thats not saying its difficult to play, or that it even requires a huge amount more apm like it did in bw
yeh thats pretty much how i feel exactly x.x
If you watch the check interview for example he choose Zerg because the high apm fits him well.. I dont think producing has anything to do with apm as its never a apm problem.
I think you totally underestimate what top players are doing or what has to be done to be good apm wise it has never anything to do with producing units.
you dont think producing more units has anything to do with apm?
if there were a reason to invent the word "wrongest", this would be it, cuz that is the wrongest thing i've ever heard.
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I think even low apm player are often able to have all the units produced the way they want it when they want it.
So no i dont think producing units is an apm problem.I mean its very very easy to produce all the units you want whenever you want to whatever point you want even with very low apm so how can it be a apm problem.
However if you say producing MORE units thats obviously a macro porblem regarding optimal numbers of drones/expansions using abilitys and buildings etc so thats of course an apm problem. Hell the whole game is about producing the most units the fastest way kinda so it doesnt even make sense to formulate it that way..
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On April 04 2010 18:37 TheDna wrote:
I think even low apm player are often able to have all the units produced the way they want it when they want it.
So no i dont think producing units is an apm problem.I mean its very very easy to produce all the units you want whenever you want to whatever point you want even with very low apm so how can it be a apm problem.
However if you say producing MORE units thats obviously a macro porblem regarding optimal numbers of drones/expansions using abilitys and buildings etc so thats of course an apm problem. Hell the whole game is about producing the most units the fastest way kinda so it doesnt even make sense to formulate it that way..
producing units is a matter of keeping your money low which is DEFINITELY a problem for beginning players and even people who've been playing for years because its difficult to have the apm to engage a battle, go back to your base, make shit, and go back to the battle.
and i dont know what your 2nd paragraph is saying ^_^ so i choose to not address it!
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On April 04 2010 17:33 Storm) wrote:
pro tip. APM is so worthless in sc2. Im platinum i average 100. Just need enough to macro and do basic shit. MUCH MUCH MUCH less apm required then sc1
Rofl as if you need to be good at all to reach to platinum at this point in the beta at all, the macro mechanics when perfected will easily take the top players to over 300 apm when they start to perfect the mechanics side. You can't expect that to happen right from the start ffs.
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On April 04 2010 18:51 mOnion wrote:
producing units is a matter of keeping your money low which is DEFINITELY a problem for beginning players and even people who've been playing for years because its difficult to have the apm to engage a battle, go back to your base, make shit, and go back to the battle.
and i dont know what your 2nd paragraph is saying ^_^ so i choose to not address it!
Nah, i m talking about just the producing unit part. Example u press 4 where all your rax are and hotkey for marines tab to the others and produce a marauder + set the waypoint on the minimap. Thats very very easy to do even while engaging in battles..
The part you talking about is macroing and not producing units.. Macroing is obviously the hardest and most important part of the game, but not producing units lol..
On April 04 2010 18:57 Puosu wrote:
Rofl as if you need to be good at all to reach to platinum at this point in the beta at all, the macro mechanics when perfected will easily take the top players to over 300 apm when they start to perfect the mechanics side. You can't expect that to happen right from the start ffs.
100% agree.
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I'd have to disagree with you Dna. Yes, it's true that if a player focuses on building units, then he can build whatever he wants whenever he wants. The true masters are the ones who can attack, scout, and do advanced micromanagement of their units while simultaneously building the correct units at the correct times, which is even more important in SC2 apparently given the hard(er than sc1)-counter system. If a player keeps pumping one unit, but the other manages to switch to another unit tech that counters, while simultaneously keeping his opponent occupied with his current units, he will win the game.
There is also a lot that goes into producing units. Keeping your minerals and gas flowing, preventing yourself from getting supply blocked, having the right techs, upgrades and so on. It is too simplistic in a game as technical as this to simply think of building units as clicking on a building and hitting the right icon or corresponding hot key.
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Just like in SC1 Terran requires more APM than the other races. That's not to say Terran is weaker but to reach similar potential you need to be a better player. When you have 2 players with 250+ APM fighting each other it makes no difference however with a couple of peeps with 50 APM then it's a decent disadvantage for the Terrans.
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High APM is very much needed in SC2, especially when you wan't to micro well in battles and still fully utilize the Macro-Mechanics. I think Pro's will soon have the same APM that was needed to play SC1, which is around 300...
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well, i can only give you pointers that i myself find useful, but maybe they'll help you along the way. firstly, don't listen to the people saying you must do this and that a certain way, the most important thing is being comfortable with your own setup. pretty sure people would call you retarded if you told them you played left handed mouse and right handed keyboard, but guess what, there are korean progamers that do this (hoejja, and someone else). nonetheless, having said that, there does tend to be more efficient ways of doing certain things. but i mean, if you're at 40 APM now, then i don't think "pro" tips are going to do a great deal for you anyways. i think we should just start off with the basics.
personally, i'd start off with a full size keyboard with a proper layout, but if you're stuck on a laptop, then you might just have to make best of what you have.
What are you guys doing at the very beginning of the game, with all your clicking. Are you randomly pushing buttons, or is there a purpose? How do you guys press your cntrl group when setting groups? Cuz it easily takes me about 3-5 sec just to press cntrl + a number. I have to use my thumb to press the cntrl key. I see top players set their cntrl groups in a split second.
i personally am opposed to simply mindlessly spamming keys just to make my APM appear high on the APM meter in replays. i try to do things that actually keep my attention on the game.
for example, i play zerg, so at the start of the game i will hotkey my hatchery to group 5, and my overlord to group 1. then i will press 11 to switch to my overlord, issue it a move command to where i want to scout, and also quickly look at what's in it's vision. then i will press 55 and return to my hatchery/base, check for larvae spawning, and check my minerals to build another drone when i can afford to, and set the miner rally to an empty mineral patch. i'll repeat the process of pressing 55, 11, 55 ,11 very quickly, to keep my attention up from the start of the game. when i send out my scouting drone, i will set the drone to group 1, and my overlord to group 2. i'll then alternate my attention between groups 1, 2 and 5 (by pressing 11, 22, 55). it's important to note that unless you're in a battle, most attention must be paid to your base, and try not to miss miner production, and place your buildings as soon as you have the minerals to build them.
so, in short, i am keeping my attention in 2-3 places at once, while keeping an eye on my minerals so as to not miss a beat. the reasoning behind this is it carries on later in the game when i am focusing my attention between my army/armies, and my base/s.
other things people do is rapidly select their miners with the cursor while assigning/switching between control groups. the idea behind this is to keep yourself in the mindset of executing actions rapidly. that and also physically keeping your hands "warmed up" for fast movement.
so there are two basics ideas that "spamming" achieves. keeping your attention focused on multiple areas at a time, and keeping your actual execution as fast as possible through spamming needless actions very quickly.
what you need to do is find out what sort of spamming works best for you. i'm basically always trying to do something productive with my spamming.
How do you keep yourself organized in your mid and late game? I tend to be very unorganized, forgetting to cntrl group stuff, especially when things get very intense. My buildings tend to be everywhere in my main base, and adding more, I just put it anywhere there is space. Also, my troops tend to get spread out due to defending against harrasments and such.
i think most people will agree more on this point. you need to assign control groups to your main army (the stuff you can simply attack move with), your casters (units that you need to specifically use abilities with), and each of your bases + production facilities. depending on your race, the more "efficient" ways of doing this will vary. so it might help if you tell us what race you play first, then we can help you figure out something more definitive.
some tips to keep in mind though.
- group (both control group and actual building location) similar production facilities together. it's important to add newly produced buildings into existing control groups, and to set their rally points.
- rally all your production facilities to the most convenient place. eg, the front of your base, where your army is containing your opponent, etc.
- add newly produced units to a control group as soon they are produced. this will help you keep track of "lost" units, by simply hitting the group hotkey and issuing a move command to where the bulk of your army is.
if your base is a mess, try watching some replays/etc of top players and take note of their building placements. a neatly planned base will help you keep track of things, and also a well designed base will be less open to harassment.
anyways, if you need some further explanation on things. let us know =]
PS: wow long post. i'm on my laptop with nothing else to do really though, haha. fyi, this is just my thoughts on this, and other peoples thoughts would help too!
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at the start of games after I set a couple drones to 1/3 I am just doing random spam clicking just so that when I watch the replay I can see if I can beat my record (Over 600apm spam lol) then about 3-4 minutes into the game I stop spamming almost completely and just do meaningful clicks. As far as setting control groups goes I set 1-4 with my thumb on the ctrl key and anything past that with my pinky finger on the ctrl key.
When it comes to keeping organized mid/late game I just have different control groups for units with different functions. IE mutas in group 1 corruptors in 2 roaches in 3 speedlings in 4 infestors in 5. I prioritize the groups based on how I plan on using them. Normally for me mutas are the main harrass unit so they get to be group 1 since for me, it's faster to press.
EDIT: just so you know where I am coming from my APM is around 180 when I spam and around 120 when I don't spam (This is throughout the entirety of a match). Not the highest by any means but still pretty good I'd say.
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150 and 350? Are those numbers average or current? Neither is important, in my opinion.
Are you doing what you need to do to win? Are there holes in your micro and macro you need to plug? If you're doing what you need to be doing when you need to be doing them, current apm of 0 is fine.
The way the number's generated comes with such a large grain of salt. I don't really bother with it.
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On April 04 2010 21:49 Kanan wrote:
150 and 350? Are those numbers average or current? Neither is important, in my opinion.
Are you doing what you need to do to win? Are there holes in your micro and macro you need to plug? If you're doing what you need to be doing when you need to be doing them, current apm of 0 is fine.
The way the number's generated comes with such a large grain of salt. I don't really bother with it.
He's looking for advice as to what he is not doing that the top players are doing. It doesn't matter how smart of a player you are if your overall apm is 40 or less there is no possible way you could beat me (And I am not super great or anything). Honestly I could play idra right now and rape him till he raged harder than he normally does if he had a apm cap of 40. This is in either SC1 or 2 btw.
What the OP is wanting is an explanation on what higher rated people are doing when their APM is double/triple++ of his. He's also asking for ways to improve his organizational skills in game because he gets mixed up.
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There are people in this thread saying APM only needs to be about 100 to play perfectly in SC2. Well don't listen to them, because they're wrong, and most likely they don't have a very high APM themselves. If your APM is just like 40, the best thing you can do is keep practicing and get the build orders down. APM should naturally increase on its own with practice. You could also try examining your hotkeys & keybindings.
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Isnt the APM that you see in sc2 game kind of wrong?? Since the game settings is on fastest or faster w/e Shouldnt the apm you see be higher regardless?
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On April 04 2010 23:16 heaven- wrote:
Isnt the APM that you see in sc2 game kind of wrong?? Since the game settings is on fastest or faster w/e Shouldnt the apm you see be higher regardless?
lets pretend that BW doesnt exist and that other speeds on SC2 dont exist either!
isolating sc2 to itself and using the current apm counter needs to happen, otherwise its gonna be another 10 years of "well my apm in BW was..." which will get old.
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I think the OP focus on "organization" shows that he's not just being an APM monkey. I try to keep my buildings in big long rows, and most mains have plenty of space for this in SC2.
Another tip for buildings, Place all your Supply's together touching, and in big clumps or rows. They will take up less space like this, behind your minerals or along the edges of your main (for sight) and leave the center clear for other buildings.
For grouping, make it part of your "spam" routine. I know its controversial whether or not you should spam, but early, just keep re assigning your CC and your scv's and getting fast. Also, if your main army is in 2, hold shift and add units AS they come out of the barracks, especially in early game. Then Re-Assign the new bigger unit group to 2. This will get you doing it habitually and make it faster when things get "hectic".
A lot of SC is just making things a reflex, when you get new units, you hold shift, add, re assign- as with new buildings- you hold shift, add, and re assign ALL while you're thinking about else- because its reflex.
The more of these reflexes you set up, grouping and building placement, the more time you'll have to think about tactics etc. Note that most pro-gamer APM in BW was constantly assigning and re-assigning unit control groups. This is almost certain to make it a reflex.
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apm issomething you need to work on. Its uselss for me to give you my hotkeys since its preference,
But i can advise you not click 10X when you move or attack move, hotkey your buildings, upgrades, The drone your about to build with, overlords and obs, and just find a pattern.\
DONT WATCH YOUR UNITS MOVE AROUND, attack move/move Then go do something!! LOL
Hate watching people at PC BANG just watching their armies move around HAHA
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On April 04 2010 22:10 Perseverance wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 21:49 Kanan wrote:
150 and 350? Are those numbers average or current? Neither is important, in my opinion.
Are you doing what you need to do to win? Are there holes in your micro and macro you need to plug? If you're doing what you need to be doing when you need to be doing them, current apm of 0 is fine.
The way the number's generated comes with such a large grain of salt. I don't really bother with it. He's looking for advice as to what he is not doing that the top players are doing. It doesn't matter how smart of a player you are if your overall apm is 40 or less there is no possible way you could beat me (And I am not super great or anything). Honestly I could play idra right now and rape him till he raged harder than he normally does if he had a apm cap of 40. This is in either SC1 or 2 btw. What the OP is wanting is an explanation on what higher rated people are doing when their APM is double/triple++ of his. He's also asking for ways to improve his organizational skills in game because he gets mixed up.
And I'm saying apm has no direct correlation with how well you're organized in the game. If you want to improve your game, by all means focus on specific things like keeping your money low or micro on certain units like the sentry. There is no point in saying "I need higher apm for the sake of higher apm." If you want to improve your apm, just spam one or two buttons straight as hard as you can, guaranteed 300+.
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Thanks guys for your help. First off, I'm more of a terran player, I play the other two races for fun, and get an idea of what their weakness are. I play 2v2 the most.
Yeah, hotkey setup is not my issue. I have my set up that works for me that I can press my button without thinking. Build orders are not an issue, I have a few strats that I been using. My short game is not much of an issue. Defending the initial rush, and me pushing are my strong point, because the army size and the initial choices and decisions on what to do are minimal. I can micro quite well during my short game. During the mid to late game, this is where I try to adapt to the situations, and managing large armies while trying to defend that harrasment or drop. This requires higher apm, multitasking, and doing things without thinking, but on reflexes. This is my weakness.
Example, When I just start attacking, my opponent decides to do a drop. I can't seem to focus on my attack on his base, while trying to defend that drop at the same time. I have to sacrifice one or the other, so I tend to focus on my attack trying to destroy his base, while not focusing on my own base, and let it get destroyed too. I still use my hotkeys to produce troops, but focusing on two things at once, I can't do. So overall its a race to see who can kill that final building. Therefore, having higher apm improves to multitask better, which may help me in these stages.
Cursor and foxmeep are dead on on what I'm asking. What are these high end players doing, that I am not doing, to help me increase my reflexes, apm, etc in the mid to late game? I'll keep working on it, especially what cursor and foxmeep are saying. I'll work on reassigning my army cntrl group as units are produced, which seems to be most common thing ppl don't do, because I tend to set my groups only when I'm about to attack. The reason is I'm thinking of trying to set my cntrl group of my army, instead of it just being automatic.
Overall multitasking based on reflexes is the one hardest thing I can think of for me as well as for most. Also you can think of this game as a form of entropy. As the your game progresses, it becomes more chaotic.
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ctrl keys are for noobs assign ctrl to your middle mouse button and you will never go back
lol? ctrl with pinkey is really good, once you get the hang of it. at the start of the game, I usually just spam drag select over my gatherers, and spam the button to make workers when I have almost enough minerals.
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On April 05 2010 04:52 phrexis wrote: Cursor and foxmeep are dead on on what I'm asking. What are these high end players doing, that I am not doing, to help me increase my reflexes, apm, etc in the mid to late game? I'll keep working on it, especially what cursor and foxmeep are saying. I'll work on reassigning my army cntrl group as units are produced, which seems to be most common thing ppl don't do, because I tend to set my groups only when I'm about to attack. The reason is I'm thinking of trying to set my cntrl group of my army, instead of it just being automatic.
Overall multitasking based on reflexes is the one hardest thing I can think of for me as well as for most. Also you can think of this game as a form of entropy. As the your game progresses, it becomes more chaotic.
Most people have set control groups and they don't have to think about which button to push for what during the battle. It cuts down on the "o I forgot i changed #3" errors by quite a bit. I'd suggest thinking hard about how you want to set it up and use it every game.
Most people multitask by switching constantly between the two battles and use a 2-3 second window to micro something in that site. Add in production at the same time, that's when apm really sky rockets.
Sounds like you already know what to do. Just needs more practice.
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It may sound a bit harsh, but anyone saying that 100 APM is enough is a casual player. To play Starcraft competitively (SC1 or SC2), a minimum of 150 is required, and the more - the better.
I have begun preparing to SC2 in 2007, and the process contains:
1) Learning to type with one hand without looking at the keyboard
2) Memorizing all hotkeys
3) Studying UI tricks, for example "cloning" (look for a thread here on TL)
4) Playing Micro UMS maps (can't be done for SC2 yet ;( )
5) Training APM using special programs. For example, every day I spend from 30 minutes to a hour in Clickmer - it's quite old but useful, download here.
The sad thing that will all this stuff I'm still slow ;(
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Wow, I sure hope you're tearing it up by now.
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On April 05 2010 04:52 phrexis wrote:
Thanks guys for your help. First off, I'm more of a terran player, I play the other two races for fun, and get an idea of what their weakness are. I play 2v2 the most.
Yeah, hotkey setup is not my issue. I have my set up that works for me that I can press my button without thinking. Build orders are not an issue, I have a few strats that I been using. My short game is not much of an issue. Defending the initial rush, and me pushing are my strong point, because the army size and the initial choices and decisions on what to do are minimal. I can micro quite well during my short game. During the mid to late game, this is where I try to adapt to the situations, and managing large armies while trying to defend that harrasment or drop. This requires higher apm, multitasking, and doing things without thinking, but on reflexes. This is my weakness.
Example, When I just start attacking, my opponent decides to do a drop. I can't seem to focus on my attack on his base, while trying to defend that drop at the same time. I have to sacrifice one or the other, so I tend to focus on my attack trying to destroy his base, while not focusing on my own base, and let it get destroyed too. I still use my hotkeys to produce troops, but focusing on two things at once, I can't do. So overall its a race to see who can kill that final building. Therefore, having higher apm improves to multitask better, which may help me in these stages.
Cursor and foxmeep are dead on on what I'm asking. What are these high end players doing, that I am not doing, to help me increase my reflexes, apm, etc in the mid to late game? I'll keep working on it, especially what cursor and foxmeep are saying. I'll work on reassigning my army cntrl group as units are produced, which seems to be most common thing ppl don't do, because I tend to set my groups only when I'm about to attack. The reason is I'm thinking of trying to set my cntrl group of my army, instead of it just being automatic.
Overall multitasking based on reflexes is the one hardest thing I can think of for me as well as for most. Also you can think of this game as a form of entropy. As the your game progresses, it becomes more chaotic.
im much the same as you (apm around 50-60) 
at the moment i try and focus on the sounds of the game, so that when i hear the sounds of troops coming out of rax/fac/port/CC i try my best to select that building (via hotkey) and re-train troops.... it's damn hard....
dont get too caught up on the spam for first 5-6 minutes of most games... until you start battles, the APM isnt THAT big of a deal (from my experience) it's once you start battles... you need micro AND macro, i find my macro usually dies... which im trying more and more to fix, it's a slow and painful process...
On April 05 2010 20:07 goszar wrote:It may sound a bit harsh, but anyone saying that 100 APM is enough is a casual player. To play Starcraft competitively (SC1 or SC2), a minimum of 150 is required, and the more - the better. I have begun preparing to SC2 in 2007, and the process contains: 1) Learning to type with one hand without looking at the keyboard 2) Memorizing all hotkeys 3) Studying UI tricks, for example "cloning" (look for a thread here on TL) 4) Playing Micro UMS maps (can't be done for SC2 yet ;( ) 5) Training APM using special programs. For example, every day I spend from 30 minutes to a hour in Clickmer - it's quite old but useful, download here. The sad thing that will all this stuff I'm still slow ;(
1) i can do...
2) im alright at...
3) suck at it
4) suck at it
know it will sound cliche, but "practice makes perfect"
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On April 04 2010 17:45 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 17:42 TheDna wrote:On April 04 2010 17:33 Storm) wrote:
pro tip. APM is so worthless in sc2. Im platinum i average 100. Just need enough to macro and do basic shit. MUCH MUCH MUCH less apm required then sc1 Totally depends on the race you play. Z for examplei s the high apm race, easy 150+apm 100% usefull. Everything below is simply not ideal, setting tumors setting all the overlords, using 3+queens all the time etc you ll never do that with 100apm. uh, actually at the moment terran (going bio) requires the highest apm because they have the shortest unit build times and have the disadvantage of being able to mass queue i actually think Zerg is the slowest race right now because all you have to do is worry about your queens and have every hatchery (which is like 3 unit producing structures TOTAL) on one hotkey.
Building bio is so easy to do with one hotkey....
IE>6ddddddd [tab]aaaaaaaaaa repeat >.>
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My groupings:
1: Nexuses
2: Production structures
3-8: Units
9: Forge
Keeping warm early game:
I always bind my outer Probe to 4 and 5. Outer means that he's the Probe that's closest to the ramp. He's always the one going to build the first Pylon and Gateway, and most of the time he'll be the scouting probe. Keeping the Probe alive while keeping up Probe production is the very first step to improve your mechanics.
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On April 04 2010 10:46 DeathSpank wrote:
ctrl keys are for noobs assign ctrl to your middle mouse button and you will never go back
I dunno how tight your wheel is, but on mine that would make me accidentally zoom in/out the camera to no end
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Multi button mouse, I use the lower "thumb" key mapped to control and click # to set.
This sounds stupid but if your just beginning but open up a custom game with a comp and control key your army to different groupings. Practice drills using them constantly while still building with other keys. Try to move your army around while keeping your mineral count low with building units. The easy ai will let you and you get alot of practice just getting used to it.
Much like learning to type just keep doing that even in ladder and you will find significant progress even as you initially lose a bunch getting used to it. Fall back to old habits when your doing badly actually sets you backwards. Lose but lose using your control keys constantly. It pays off in dividends later, trust me.
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On April 06 2010 05:15 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 10:46 DeathSpank wrote:
ctrl keys are for noobs assign ctrl to your middle mouse button and you will never go back I dunno how tight your wheel is, but on mine that would make me accidentally zoom in/out the camera to no end
its a logitech g3. I'm also playing on a macbook pro so the keyboard is tiny as hell and its really uncomfortable to stretch my big hands like that while trying to be fast. I would argue that if you have a good mouse with a tight scroll wheel(it will help to have the claw grip I can't imagine doing it with a palm grip) then you should bind it to your middle button because it requires far less movement of your hands to assign control groups and so on.
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On April 06 2010 05:22 Inori wrote:
Doing ctrl+# it takes me what, 0.5 second to click ctrl and my hand already sets in a good position to press #, whereas with a mouse (I have multi-button) I need to do unnecessary movements, reducing my overall screen movement.
I can't really imagine a situation where mouse button (any) + # is better than ctrl+#. =/
so shifting your index finger an 1/8th of an inch and hitting a number is really that hard for you???
edit: also taking half a second to hit control is horrible.
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Apm is lower in SCII than in BW because blizzard uses a different equation to figure it out.
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Why do people always set their hatcheries, rax, etc. to 5,6,7,etc.?
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On April 04 2010 10:41 phrexis wrote:
As Im watching videos of high skilled player, I noticed most great players have apm of about 150 and up to 350. Mine as well as most average players are up around 40 apm.
I know high apm benefits players especially during mid and late game when you're hassling around with multiple expansions, harrasment, etc. Which is my major down fall when playing this game. My short game is decent, but mid and late game I'm horrid.
What are you guys doing at the very beginning of the game, with all your clicking. Are you randomly pushing buttons, or is there a purpose? How do you guys press your cntrl group when setting groups? Cuz it easily takes me about 3-5 sec just to press cntrl + a number. I have to use my thumb to press the cntrl key. I see top players set their cntrl groups in a split second.
How do you keep yourself organized in your mid and late game? I tend to be very unorganized, forgetting to cntrl group stuff, especially when things get very intense. My buildings tend to be everywhere in my main base, and adding more, I just put it anywhere there is space. Also, my troops tend to get spread out due to defending against harrasments and such.
Most piano music requires an APM of 200+. The aspiring pianist practices daily forcing away bad habits. In the end, the synapses solidify, the subconscious mind taking over, and the hands move themselves.
Practice, practice and practice until the movements become second nature.
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On April 06 2010 05:51 HelloSon wrote:
Why do people always set their hatcheries, rax, etc. to 5,6,7,etc.?
Because they want the lower numbers free for units? Or, do you ask why ppl aren't using MBS?
Also, why the spam in the beginning? Well it's just to keep the fingers going and to keep the momentum. If you stop spamming you will focus on other things instead of the game and you'll start missing things. As someone mentioned earlier, the game is all about reflexes which you learn by time. Once you dont have to think about the mechanics you can start working on the strategies and the things which actually separates good players from bad players.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On April 06 2010 05:15 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 10:46 DeathSpank wrote:
ctrl keys are for noobs assign ctrl to your middle mouse button and you will never go back I dunno how tight your wheel is, but on mine that would make me accidentally zoom in/out the camera to no end
There's an option to disable mouse zoom.
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Keep playing/practicing.
I was in the 200 range at my best in broodwar, but after years away from rts gaming i'm back down to the 100 range (which makes me feel old). However, i've gone up an average of 10-15 apm per week since i started playing again (some weeks more than others), so i'm pretty confident i'll be back to my old self eventually.
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if its not to much to ask but is there a apm chart for sc2??? :/
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Back in BW, I was around 200 APM at best, but now I'm going up to 300+ because of all the hotkeys. I play as Protoss, and my hotkeys are usually: 1 scout/observer, 2 melee, 3 ranged/caster, 4 other, 5 Robotics/Stargate, 6 Nexus' and just about every other building if I have time. And of course, 'W' is for Warpgates.
I change 2-4 sometimes based on the race/opponent I'm playing. The reason why I try and hotkey all the essential buildings on 6 with my Nexus because Nexus is the main focus of the hotkey, and you can cast Chronoboost on any building frame, thus saving a little time looking back at your base. However, games have been getting pretty crazy lately so I've been doing it less.
Basically, hotkey everything essential!
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Just so everyone knows, Zerg is the most APM intensive race. It was in the original series, and it still is. It was impossible to get enough Larva without injects that came in SC2. Now, you pretty much have to be really good at hitting tab or backspace at the right time or you have to have a really good method of injecting like hot keying each individual hatchery with its Queen along with having all of your hatcheries hot-keyed to something like 3. I use 3 for all hatcheries. You also need to have a Queen dedicated to creep spread. You need to macro, keep good keep spread, defend against harassment, micro your army, hit all of your injects with no empty windows, and make sure your overlords don't die while scouting all at the same time.
I would advise turning sensitivity for most things to 100%. Make sure you use control groups. After that, it's just practice. I'm Korean so it's naturally easy for me.
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Holy pointless necro, son you should read the commandments before you post.
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On August 19 2013 10:22 MutaMaster wrote:
Just so everyone knows, Zerg is the most APM intensive race. It was in the original series, and it still is. It was impossible to get enough Larva without injects that came in SC2. Now, you pretty much have to be really good at hitting tab or backspace at the right time or you have to have a really good method of injecting like hot keying each individual hatchery with its Queen along with having all of your hatcheries hot-keyed to something like 3. I use 3 for all hatcheries. You also need to have a Queen dedicated to creep spread. You need to macro, keep good keep spread, defend against harassment, micro your army, hit all of your injects with no empty windows, and make sure your overlords don't die while scouting all at the same time.
I would advise turning sensitivity for most things to 100%. Make sure you use control groups. After that, it's just practice. I'm Korean so it's naturally easy for me.
WTF what is the point of this post and this in a 3 year old thread.
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It was a complete troll job.
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how can you all fall for the obvious troll lol
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edit: fk me, got trolled, can't delete.
On another note to the little troll at the top, there were discussions of how to efficiently play at low APM a year or two ago. Zerg is the most efficient low APM race, followed by Protoss, and Terran being unplayable. Guess that debunks your theory that Zerg is the high APM race. All the actions are allocated differently, all the races can be high APM, all the races can be low APM (just Terran suffers a bit on the low APM side).
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EPT
