On February 20 2010 23:21 Islandsnake wrote:
I really don't think I would let a toss get away with only stalkers till collsi on one gate X_x

I usually move out before stim to test the waters...

This is true, if you don't make a lot of zealots terran will boom boom crush you like a noob

Zoler

Sweden6339 Posts

February 20 2010 14:46 GMT

#22

Searching TvP practice! My bnet ID is Zoler.zoler!

Anyone who can beat me lets see? (not saying no one can lol!)

rest_less

Germany142 Posts

February 20 2010 14:47 GMT

#23

i think the viability of this bo most unfortunately highly correlates with your post count. no offense, but sorry dude.

StarBrift

Sweden1761 Posts

February 20 2010 14:49 GMT

#24

On February 20 2010 22:53 Floophead_III wrote:
Well if they're going to be aggressive and 1 base, I don't expo until my collosus is started. I've refined what I'm doing since then, it's perfectly safe. PvZ on the other hand, I'm not sure what protoss has going for them....

I think the main question people have with this build is if its at all viable against "The Zatic build" or simply a one base marauder heavy pressure build. Since marauders are so strong early game you really can not judge this strategy without playing against a terran who uses them alot.

I could see this being extremely effective against someone who does reaper harass into just pure marine/medivac but as of now most "high level" terrans seem to mass marauders (and marines).

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

February 20 2010 14:54 GMT

#25

On February 20 2010 23:47 rest_less wrote:
i think the viability of this bo most unfortunately highly correlates with your post count. no offense, but sorry dude.

Hey so do you have a beta key or are you just being a jackass?

DrainX

Sweden3187 Posts

February 20 2010 15:11 GMT

#26

Sending your initial stalkers to outside the terrans base? What if he moves out with his small group of marines and marauders? It's not like you can back up and flee to your base when marauders are slowing you.

lostshard

United States95 Posts

February 20 2010 15:28 GMT

#27

Marauders used correctly will really destroy this build. Your harrass will stop as soon as the first marauder comes out (if it was not stopped by a wall off due to not having blink). Also im curious to why blink is left near the end and comes in after 3 extra gateways 2 robotics facilities and robotics bay. The blink should come in way earlier in your build if your going to be spamming stalkers (which is not something I condone). At the start of beta I tried spamming the stalkers and it was less than favorable.

However stalkers are good support/harrass units but as your main force alone leaves you open to hard counters.

synapse

China13814 Posts

February 20 2010 16:03 GMT

#28

IMO any sort of early reaper harass destroys Protoss FE. 3 Reapers can take out all of your pylons within like 30 seconds... and since you probably have your units camped in front of your natural expo, taking out all of your pylons doesn't seem that hard with some micro.

Floophead_III

United States1832 Posts

February 20 2010 21:05 GMT

#29

I haven't lost with this. I don't care what you guys think, I produced results so obviously it works. I've fought against early maurader pressure and that first rush I have my collosus out for just in time, then my expo is up, then range finishes and collosi turn into rapefest machines.

I played in platinum league and I've only lost 1 pvt to a banshee build. I think I played about 10.

P.S. I've started getting a slightly earlier 2nd gate, but it kinda sits around idle for a few seconds cause I don't have the gas for 2 gate stalkers with chrono and all the upgrades and tech for collosi, which are like 2x as expensive as reavers were =/

I've updated the BO to reflect the change.

Kiarip

United States1835 Posts

February 20 2010 21:18 GMT

#30

^ replays.

give them

Floophead_III

United States1832 Posts

February 20 2010 21:19 GMT

#31

Are you guys retarded? Seriously. I posted replays already and people here are still HURP DURP IT DOESN'T WORK.

I have a lot of respect for the TL community but this thread looks like a dumbass magnet.

Amber[LighT]

United States5078 Posts

February 20 2010 21:30 GMT

#32

Okay I'm mixed between whether it works and whether it doesn't work.

I watched the games and you played two very passive terran players. They could've pushed out any time. I'll try the build though and see what happens.

The fact that you weren't using Chrono Boost on your nexus in the beginning, (ur first CB was actually on ur gateway/robo) means you were actually playing too slow anyway.

I'll try the build (if I ever find another Terran player again) and post results.

Zhul

Czech Republic430 Posts

February 20 2010 21:33 GMT

#33

On February 21 2010 06:19 Floophead_III wrote:
Are you guys retarded? Seriously. I posted replays already and people here are still HURP DURP IT DOESN'T WORK.

I have a lot of respect for the TL community but this thread looks like a dumbass magnet.

Yeah, like everyone wrote no posts = no skill. What a nonsense.

Floophead_III

United States1832 Posts

February 20 2010 21:35 GMT

#34

I'll post up a more recent game. My play got a lot better over the night. It was only my first day playing. To be fair, a lot of people won't wanna look into the whole thread for replays. I'll edit them into the first post from now on.

Eeevil

Netherlands359 Posts

February 20 2010 21:41 GMT

#35

Woa dude easy on the drama. People disagree with you, no big thing
Just keep pwning ppl with your build if it really works that well and lol.

nodule

Canada931 Posts

February 20 2010 21:44 GMT

#36

Almost every bio pvt game I've seen involves toss having trouble fending off 2-rax aggression, and that's with 2 gates usually. By moving your early stalkers out so aggressively, aren't you vulnerable to reaper harass?

madcow305

United States152 Posts

February 20 2010 22:11 GMT

#37

I don't see how Stalkers only beats Marauders.

You said you faced Marauder pressure builds, and that you won because you got your first Colossus out in time.

That's not a Marauder pressure build, that's a Terran mid-game push.

Everyone in the thread disagreeing with you is talking about how you deal with Marauders off 2 or more Rax making a timing push against you before your Colossus tech is done, right around the time your Robo has just started building.

Stalkers are bad vs. Marauders because Marauders are cost-effective vs. Stalkers. Here are the SC2 Armory links for both:

http://www.sc2armory.com/game/terran/units/marauder
http://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/units/stalker

Both are considered Armored units, so both do bonus damage vs. each other. However, per resource point, Marauders do more damage and have more HP than Stalkers.

Combining Mineral and Gas cost into one resource, you can see that:

Marauders take 125 resources to build.
Stalkers take 175 resources to build.

Marauders deal 20 damage per shot to Stalkers. That means Marauders deal 0.16 damage per resource point to Stalkers.

Stalkers deal 14 damage per shot to Marauders. That means Stalkers deal 0.08 damage per resource point to Marauders.

Marauders deal twice as much damage as Stalkers per resource point. They both have the same range, and fire at the same rate. Marauders are twice as cost-effective as Stalkers in offensive damage.

Marauders have 125 HP. This means that Marauders have 1 point of HP per resource unit.

Stalkers have 80 Shields and 80 HP, for a total of 160 effective HP. This means that Stalkers have roughly 0.9143 points of HP per resource unit.

Marauders have slightly more HP per resource unit than Stalkers. They both have the same base armor, and both get the same +1 armor per upgrade. However, +1 armor only affects the HP of a Stalker, not the shields, so an armor-upgraded Marauder will be even stronger against a Stalker with armor upgrades.

Marauders also take 30 seconds to build, while a Stalker takes 42 seconds. This means Marauders are more time-efficient than Stalkers as well as being more resource-efficient. Protoss can offset this disadvantage slightly with their Chrono Boost thing, but the Nexus doesn't have infinite energy, and there's still the resource-inefficiency to overcome.

I hope with this analysis, you'll see why your build is so weak vs. either extremely early Marauder pressure, with maybe 3-4 Marauders and some Marines harassing you, and also extremely weak against a M&M timing push that is made before your Robo is even finished, much less your Support Bay.

Amber[LighT]

United States5078 Posts

February 20 2010 22:48 GMT

#38

I had no gas to get collossus AND stalkers. When I did it got murdered.

Bad build, just saying.

EmeraldSparks

United States1451 Posts

February 20 2010 22:49 GMT

#39

Some of the flak you're also getting is because you're claiming that your build is invincible against all forms of bio without even have faced the most common bio pressure build. If you can add a replay of you defending against two-rax marine-marauder aggression (early) then it would allay a lot of concerns.

Floophead_III

United States1832 Posts

February 20 2010 23:50 GMT

#40

While marauders are cost effective vs stalkers, you can produce stalkers very quickly with the chrono boost. If it's the most common bio pressure build, why have I never seen it? Doesn't that make it uncommon?

I do see the counterargument people have against this. I don't want to sound stubborn, but results are results and until I do lose I have to disagree with what people say. If anyone wants to play vs me to prove me wrong, by all means please do it. It's beta, the whole point is to figure out what works and what doesn't. I just don't like it when people say "it can't work, your build is terrible" when there are contradictory results.

Edit: I posted a small rep pack of pvts