|
On February 20 2010 20:37 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
Close because others disagree? You mean like someone in the early days of sc1 would have "disagreed" with a fast expo build? Interesting. Think they have a word for that btw.. I'll let you figure it out.
Yes, EVERYTHING is viable, in some way or another, this game is built on hard and soft counters, every unit has a place somewhere. Have you even played beta? You should play before replying.
You would be smart not to insult a forum moderator. He has played beta becuase he not only made this whole SC2 strat forum but has his own Terran guide.
|
On February 21 2010 06:05 Floophead_III wrote:
I haven't lost with this. I don't care what you guys think, I produced results so obviously it works. I've fought against early maurader pressure and that first rush I have my collosus out for just in time, then my expo is up, then range finishes and collosi turn into rapefest machines.
I played in platinum league and I've only lost 1 pvt to a banshee build. I think I played about 10.
P.S. I've started getting a slightly earlier 2nd gate, but it kinda sits around idle for a few seconds cause I don't have the gas for 2 gate stalkers with chrono and all the upgrades and tech for collosi, which are like 2x as expensive as reavers were =/
I've updated the BO to reflect the change.
The real problem here is bolded above. We are just replying with our experiences here and your replays did not address a real early rush. If your going to post a build your going need to convince us or have your replays convince us fully that it would work. Using this as an argument make the discussion one sided.
That being said your build is 4 buildings deep while terrans do not need to go as deep down the tech to counter and pump out enough troops to counter/overwhelm your forces before your build order reaches maturity.
|
On February 21 2010 08:58 3FFA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 20:37 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
Close because others disagree? You mean like someone in the early days of sc1 would have "disagreed" with a fast expo build? Interesting. Think they have a word for that btw.. I'll let you figure it out.
Yes, EVERYTHING is viable, in some way or another, this game is built on hard and soft counters, every unit has a place somewhere. Have you even played beta? You should play before replying. You would be smart not to insult a forum moderator. He has played beta becuase he not only made this whole SC2 strat forum but has his own Terran guide.
No wai? He made a WHOLE guide about Terran? Two days after beta release none the less? Jee wilikers, I better watch out.
Paranoia's Terran guide.
Build reapers.
Hai look, I made a guide.
|
Ya he did, 2nd page in strat forum.
|
I'm a Terran player, and I feel that this wouldn't be exceptionally effective. Granted I obviously cannot say this without a doubt, but I feel that any sort of early game aggression out of 2-3 raxxes would put a severe hurt on you, putting you way behind, or dead.
|
I'm a Platinum League Terran currently ranked #3 and I can tell that every Protoss who goes 1 gate -> Nexus dies to every sort of Marine/Marauder or Reaperbuild. There's no way you can defend. I'll the check the replays when I'm at home.
|
This isn't a 1 gate nexus. This is a 1 gate collosus build. The nexus comes after your tech is secured and any early aggression averted. I don't know why people keep thinking it's 1 gate nexus. I don't even take my nexus off 1 gate with the version I'm using now, I always get a 2nd gate first. I'll double check the BO to make sure I haven't made any stupid mistakes.
edit: added some notes regarding followup.
|
Let me just say, it works against a noob player. I've done it in copper league. (I was like dirt ass bottom on copper rofl, then using a build like this I got to rank 49) So it works against beginners. Not so much against people who double barracks. You just don't have that much time to get a colossus out and stalkers like you would want. But if you quick tech to twilight I guess it's possible to tweak where needed. Maybe change it to double gate early gas. (Two zealots + Sentry) then pump out stalkers like no tomorrow.
|
Let me just say I disagree with your theory Floop. I don't want to give away my strategy that I'll be employing once I get in Beta, but there is one unit you are overlooking that changes the whole dynamic of PvT :p
|
So has any one found a counter to 2rax marauder build or are people just flaming this guy for trying?
|
This is the counter to all 1 base TvP nonmech builds. I just played some games vs Torch and he managed to beat me a couple times with his thor push with raven and ghost. It's a good build. However, I simply skipped coli range for another coli and I won easily after that. Particle is useful for killing 1 coli but if you have more colis than he has thors you can't lose to that push. That being said, you can still use the push to get map control to expo without actually engaging.
All the 2-3 rax builds I've seen fail pretty hard vs this build. The first coli is out way too fast, and it can just cliff abuse all day to slaughter the advancing army.
I don't know why people don't believe me, because until Torch's thor push I never lost a game with it to a bio based build, and even then I proved that it does beat his extremely strong push. In fact you could probably get 2 coli before range if you want to be extra safe vs any build, although the range allows you to kill bunkers missile turrets and fortresses so that's why I have been getting it earlier (to punish expands without seige tanks).
edit: I haven't seen this vs any factory based play, it did fail pretty hard vs banshees but you should never do this build if you scout banshees with your obs anyways.
|
On February 22 2010 13:52 HazMat wrote:
So has any one found a counter to 2rax marauder build or are people just flaming this guy for trying?
stalkers with sentry support until you get charge for zealots. Work off 3 gates. If you can fend properly go for the expansion.
You need to really be able to outnumber the M&M... even a couple of seconds off and you won't last.
|
Wrong wrong wrong. My build works. If you are losing it's because of improper use of chrono = less units/slower coli. I have SO many replays proving this.
|
I lost to a similar build earlier tonight against a #1 ranked platinum toss Azz. I felt pretty helpless. I think maybe if I had better unit positioning when he attacked and could have spread out my army better I may have done better. I went with a medivac build and he made it pretty much impossible to do any damage with a 16 marine drop.
After that game I tried a fast expansion build with fairly quick vikings/ raven. Threw down raven ability that absorbs attacks from photons/stalker, picked off colossus with vikings, and gtfo. I don't think they can have too many stalkers if they are getting 3+ colossus so the raven thing should last a while. This worked against a platinum, but he was a pretty mediocre platinum. Going to try it more tomorrow.
|
Well, this build is designed to fight the bio aggression play that is seen by 99% of all terrans. What I do vs a fast expo is go straight into nexus off the obs and don't even get a collosus if I don't scout bio play. I get immortals instead. In the event you do already have the bat basically done, it doesn't hurt to get a collosus, especially cause you can use to harass the natural/main pretty easily on most of these maps. Of course expand before 2nd gateway and don't bother pumping more collosi, you don't wanna fall behind.
On a side note, Azz raped me a pvp, he's a good player. I didn't know on scrap yard 1 gate tech has enough time to fight off a 2 gate =P
|
Well I still got a LOT of bio. I just delayed medivacs and went to viking/ravens. I just kept it in my base until the colossi were taken out and then I moved out for the win.
But again, it probably wouldn't work against a better player. It seems sorta effective and it is funny though 
|
First of all I don't have beta so feel free to stomp on me, call me names.. etc.
Some of the major complaints about this build are the facts that the entire army shares an armor type that is weak to marauders and the build takes quite a lot of gas. Based on this, wouldn't it theoretically be better to go for a more zealot based army rather than a stalker based one?
This would allow a less imbalanced army (difference in armor types) as well as less strained gas. You could use gas on teching and any extra could be used on a few stalkers/sentries for support.
Like I said before, I don't have beta so this whole theory is probably worthless  At least food for thought?
|
On February 22 2010 15:51 JustWeird wrote:First of all I don't have beta so feel free to stomp on me, call me names.. etc. Some of the major complaints about this build is the fact that the entire army shares an armor type that is weak to marauders as well as the fact that the build takes quite a lot of gas. Based on these facts, wouldn't it theoretically be better to go for a more zealot based army rather than a stalker based one? This would allow a less imbalanced army (difference in armor types) as well as less strained gas. You could use all gas on teching and any extra could be used on a few stalkers/sentries for support. Like I said before, I don't have beta so this whole theory is probably worthless At least food for thought?
Marauders only deal 10 damage to immortals, take a ton of damage from immortals, have 600 range which makes it VERY hard to hit collosi without perfect positioning, and collosi do a ton of damage to marauders as well in a huge line.
In day[9]'s show last night he went over this match up and also had a similar build order for toss as this one. His show ended with him having counters to what terran did, but I don't think he really had any counters for toss deciding to counter the terran with more immortals or more colossi.
|
Have none of you actually watch Day[9]'s cast today? Terran going 2 rax M&M can not only fend off most stuff coming at him early on from the Protoss (hi Immortals), he can safely expand and even apply pressure.
To stop 2 base Terran bio Protoss needs to rush (literaly) for colossuses just to survive the early-mid game and hope that T won't add banshee's or tanks to the mix later on as it's going to just rape zealot/colossus combo.
It's all just an unfinished theory because there still has to be found some reasonable mid-game switch for both races that would allow for a transition to lategame. From what I saw so far most games end rather fast (ie. someone has better unit composition in the initial fight = game over).
There's still a lot of time/effort needed to establish a 'safe' or 'standard' builds for all matchups that would allow for the game to develop a bit more.
|
You do know day[9] lost the game he fast expanded. He didn't know what to do after that and never gave any answer other then "thors!".
His cast was why I tried fast expo into raven/ viikings though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
