EPTPvT BO that stomps on bio - Page 4
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Manit0u
Poland17706 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
I really need to learn how to stream effectively because it's obvious showing is better than telling =/ | ||
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cuteFayth
Canada1167 Posts
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On February 22 2010 16:15 cuteFayth wrote: I raped azz tvp, and im not even that good, u prob didnt play anyone good yet (and I use bio mostly) Want to elaborate? Because that post was worthless. Were you aggressive early? Did you expand pretty quickly or turtle up? Did you make any reapers or drop him? Etc. Edit: I guess you were temp banned. Maybe you can expand on your build in a couple days eh? | ||
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Bischu
Sweden25 Posts
Chronoboosting sentrys from 1gate makes you able to block the ramp for pretty much as long as you want to. So you can just fly with your first collosus immediatly to his base. If he's beeing stubborn and camping outside your ramp waiting for you to run out of energy (which you won't) you'll be able to score some very nice harass. Most terran I've met does the marauder/marine push into expand and getting tanks + medivacs. If they expand I usually end the game with a couple of zealots sentrys and 2collosus with shuttle(flying pylon thingy) If they only have bio units they melt so fast if they can't aim the collosuses. Maps without ramps is a bit trickier, I've found immortals working pretty ok while holding off for collosus. This is ofc only against marine/marauder opening, the key is the fast observer. Lurker burrows | ||
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ccou
United States681 Posts
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Poobah
England91 Posts
Unfortunately if your terran oponent decided to go for 2rax marine you'll have somewhere in the region of *a lot* of marines outside your base by the time you're popping out your first or second pair of stalkers. Their bullet riddled corpses will kinda demonstrate the problems with massing stalkers in the early game. I can't post new threads here, and I'm not a known or even a highly skilled player of either Starcraft or the Starcraft 2 Beta so I find it unlikely that my opinion will be given any particular weight, but I have written my own guide to countering Terran bio pressure, for some friends on another forum. I have to say that it differs from this in almost every way except of course the importance placed on scouting and reacting correctly. Yes some Stalkers are the way to go vs Reaper Harrass, but when the terran moves into heavy bio pressure, or opens up that way with a big marine or marine/marauder rush/push then you're going to be in masses of trouble. You need a couple of Sentries for the shields and tactical use of the force fields, some zealots and some stalkers and maybe some static defence as they can simply push out units far faster than you through the use of the reactor. Even with warp gates decreasing your effective build time a Terran can push out 2 marines 3 seconds faster than you can get a zealot, or 12 seconds faster than you can get a stalker. That amounts to a significant early game numerical advantage for the Terran. I'd appreciate some explanation as to how an aggressive Terran will manage not to roll you over while you tech to Colossi without at the very least some Sentries, zeal meat shields, possibly static defence if you aren't comfortable using the Sentries ingeniously or other means to prevent your few stalkers becoming a few corpses. Briefly, the PvT I've played tends towards me as toss scouting either reaper harass or a typical heavy pressure bio build and responding to that first push either by turtling slightly or being ready to drive off/kill the reapers. The Terran will continue massing M&M and begin working on adding Medivacs as soon as he can manage it, usually after expanding. The toss needs to hold off the constant pressure of the terran infantry while getting his natural up, and yes tech to Colossi as indeed with the range upgrade a small number of Colossi are essentially a hard counter to any amount of Terran infantry, and they only become better with the ground weapons upgrade which you will have been investing in. Vikings seem the best and logical counter from Terrans to Colossi due to their high damage vs armoured targets, their extremely long range (9), their cheapness, and their status as a unit that doesn't require a tech lab to build (so you can double up production with reactors). In this phase you do need a lot of Stalkers to deal with the Vikings, with blink being very important and rather more useful with Colossi providing vision up cliffs, though you need to be careful not to let your Stalkers get lured too far away from the safety of the Colossi and turned via MMM into bullet riddled corpses, but you can't afford to let your Colossi get sniped either. I've only played a relatively small number games like this as it's only been a rather small number of days since the release of the Beta so I certainly don't make claims of being an expert, or researching a BO, but I have looked at what I'm up against typically and put thought into how to counter it and how my counter will likely be dealt with. I've only played three games so far where the Terran had the presence of mind to switch up tech to Vikings after I lasted out against the pressure and got the Colossi tech going. Several have carried on pumping MMM and several others have pretty much GG'd as soon as my Colossi evaporated one of his attacks. I'm really hoping to get to play against some more Terran soon, or get a practice partner who plays Terran to continue working on my play, so I'm sure that as only some preliminary theorycrafting this will be subject to extreme change. On the other hand you claim to offer a definitive build order that slaughters Terrans regularly in the Platinum League. It seems a little odd and the lack of credibility of what amounts to "built lots of stalkers, and tech colossi very fast" is why people are having difficulty taking your guide seriously, I suspect. It just seems rather far fetched that this would actually work against anything other than a terran who has decided to tech, or is non-aggressive/poorly macroed in the early and through to the mid game. | ||
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ccou
United States681 Posts
do you normally set the pace if the game proceeds? If you set the pace, what units or strategy do you aim for? If not, how do you react to viking/banshee/raven harass if you scout it in time? I've seen psyonic have some success with this and personally am really glad I haven't played any terrans that went air in PvT or TvT. Vikings' air attack and banshee's ground attack just seem so strong. If they turtle, it's like PvZ sair/reaver. Also, have you had any trouble with ghosts? I've only played 1 PvT where the opponent built ghosts, EMP was pretty powerful. I think I would've lost if I wasn't better at macro and if my opponent was more aggressive at countering after beating my initial push. I think he probably could've dealt a ton of sniping damage on my zealots if he microed a bit more. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
ccou, I always set the pace for the game if it proceeds. If the terran attacks and I beat it often I can counter for the win right there. If the terran gives up and goes for an expansion I have map control and a superior army so I can expand again and move to my midgame plan. I'll detail my midgame plan more in another thread when I work out exactly the best build to do. As for viking/banshee, first your probe should be able to scout his factory going up super early with almost no bio being made. If he's not opening reapers you can actually camp outside his ramp with your stalkers assuming he's not going some super aggressive 2 rax pressure build. These should be the first hints that this kind of play is coming. Your observer will confirm your suspicions. Don't make a robo bay. If you did, don't make collosi and cut your losses on wasted tech, because collosi don't hit air. Add a stargate and a 2nd gate and start pumping out mass stalker/obs/voidray. The good news is terran can either go viking heavy or banshee heavy but not really both on 1 base. If you keep him from expanding eventually you'll just have more units and either be able to outright kill him or expand yourself. edit: forgot about ghosts. Ghosts suck for protoss in a whole new way. Emp is really easy to get and it's a massive pain in the ass and turns your stalkers into flubber, immortals into flubber, and everything you have into flubber. Your best bet vs ghosts is to either magically snipe it before it can emp, have your units spread out as best you can, and just have enough stuff it doesn't matter. As for zealots... I don't get them pvt until much later. It's nothing new, sc1 was the same way. | ||
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On February 22 2010 22:23 Floophead_III wrote: Poobah, I've beaten every single bio opening with this build or a modification of it. I've played some good players who've told me they've never lost to a protoss before. This build simply has no weaknesses to any 1 base push. It's not a matter of opinion. This is fact. ccou, I always set the pace for the game if it proceeds. If the terran attacks and I beat it often I can counter for the win right there. If the terran gives up and goes for an expansion I have map control and a superior army so I can expand again and move to my midgame plan. I'll detail my midgame plan more in another thread when I work out exactly the best build to do. As for viking/banshee, first your probe should be able to scout his factory going up super early with almost no bio being made. If he's not opening reapers you can actually camp outside his ramp with your stalkers assuming he's not going some super aggressive 2 rax pressure build. These should be the first hints that this kind of play is coming. Your observer will confirm your suspicions. Don't make a robo bay. If you did, don't make collosi and cut your losses on wasted tech, because collosi don't hit air. Add a stargate and a 2nd gate and start pumping out mass stalker/obs/voidray. The good news is terran can either go viking heavy or banshee heavy but not really both on 1 base. If you keep him from expanding eventually you'll just have more units and either be able to outright kill him or expand yourself. edit: forgot about ghosts. Ghosts suck for protoss in a whole new way. Emp is really easy to get and it's a massive pain in the ass and turns your stalkers into flubber, immortals into flubber, and everything you have into flubber. Your best bet vs ghosts is to either magically snipe it before it can emp, have your units spread out as best you can, and just have enough stuff it doesn't matter. As for zealots... I don't get them pvt until much later. It's nothing new, sc1 was the same way. Congratulations you found Terran's best unit. I would really like to test my theorycraft Bio/Air build out on yours whenever I get Beta (Hopefully 2nd Wave since I am also a Blizzcon08er). | ||
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Quanticfograw
United States2053 Posts
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Rothbardian: I will gladly play you when you get your key. Hopefully I'll get mine too I'm in the same boat, but fortunately my friend has been very generous with letting me use his account. | ||
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Tropics
United Kingdom1132 Posts
And the thing most people here don't seem to realize is that it really doesn't matter if it loses to particular early aggression builds, if you scout them and see they're not going that then you've got very strong options using this and its something you can scout early enough you can identify whether they're teching or going for aggression. Same shit as SC1 - you're hardly gonna 1 gate expo pvt if you scout 2rax are you? All about adaptation. | ||
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G4MR
United States371 Posts
http://bit.ly/caF5w3 Check the VOD. Going to test it a few times. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
First and foremost, 2 gate stalker is a completely trashy useless build that should never be used because with chrono you can get like 1 less stalk + tech + better eco from 1 gate it's hilarious. Second and most importantly, the 2 rax m&m push with stim with 3 marauder and 4 marines is very strong vs this BO. I was able to hold it a few times by pulling probes, but he didn't rally. He then played it more aggressive and I couldn't hold it. HOWEVER, I discovered a viable counter to it. If you believe you are facing a 2 rax push, get an immortal asap (chrono it). You will probably lose a lot of stalkers but you can hold the push with minimal damage. Don't be afraid to still pull about 3-4 probes. This push is a little too strong right now and I feel like marauders probably should cost 50 gas for how incredibly good they are (1 = a stalker exactly, they will kill each other.) Just scout properly and micro as best you can and adjust the BO to get that fast immortal. You should be able to hold it off and proceed safely to midgame. The downside to this is that T can damage you AND get a faster expo up. The upside is that you have superior tech and can expo immediately afterwards and pressure him with collosus/immortal + stalkers. I was able to contain and easily outmacro after holding off the attack. I will update as needed on the main page. | ||
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Poobah
England91 Posts
On February 23 2010 09:54 Floophead_III wrote: Second and most importantly, the 2 rax m&m push with stim with 3 marauder and 4 marines is very strong vs this BO. I was able to hold it a few times by pulling probes, but he didn't rally. He then played it more aggressive and I couldn't hold it. Good to see that you've discovered this and are working on updating your build. This is what earlier potsters have meen mentionioning. I'd suggest always getting a Sentry. The -2 incoming ranged damage bubble is rediculously good against low damage ranged units like marines. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
(on a side note, good ol 2 gate zealot actually rapes this push pretty hard as you just get SO many zealots, so there is a downside to the push) | ||
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G4MR
United States371 Posts
On February 23 2010 17:50 Floophead_III wrote: I experimented with getting a sentry in place of the 3rd stalker or so. It worked fairly well but did eat up some gas I would've liked for midgame. I think it's a tradeoff. (on a side note, good ol 2 gate zealot actually rapes this push pretty hard as you just get SO many zealots, so there is a downside to the push) Yep 2 gate zealot or a 2 rax reactor/tech mass marine/maruaders are a pain as well. (As you mentioned) I've done a modified version of this build. I actually want to do another modified version of this build but do an early tech to Void Ray's. I was actually playing around with a friend earlier and I built a starport before robo pretty damn early and got two void ray's up and it was pretty much GG from there with my 6-7 stalkers + 2 void ray's since the void rays just raped ground. Using a few phoenix's as support (Mutas) Only played tried the above PvZ though. | ||
zatic
Zurich15364 Posts
On February 23 2010 09:54 Floophead_III wrote: Alright I did a TON of testing with TorcH and discovered something: First and foremost, 2 gate stalker is a completely trashy useless build that should never be used because with chrono you can get like 1 less stalk + tech + better eco from 1 gate it's hilarious. Second and most importantly, the 2 rax m&m push with stim with 3 marauder and 4 marines is very strong vs this BO. I was able to hold it a few times by pulling probes, but he didn't rally. He then played it more aggressive and I couldn't hold it. So you have finally "discovered" what people have been telling you repeatedly from page 1 on. What exactly is left of your "BO that stomps on bio" when you actually need a different BO (2 gate, sentry / immortal) to even survive against the most easy and basic bio build. Hardly anything from your original guide is left at this point and what you have there now is pretty much the standard every single P on B.net does against T. Please do not post another guide until you gained a lot more understanding about this game. A revised set of forum guidelines will be posted soon under which threads like these will be closed in the future. | ||
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