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If you think bio is useful tvp, you are sorely mistaken. I've had the luxury of playing on a friend's account (cmon wave 2!!!) and let me tell you, protoss is SO FUN PvT. All those poor terrans who are so used to 1a2a3aing m&m with medivacs get slaughtered so fast it's unreal.
I'm not 100% sure on supply timings so I'm just going to do everything relative. Use your chrono boosts as you see fit except where marked.
Pylon
Gateway
Gas
Core
Pylon
@50 gas start making stalkers (Use chronoboost on gateway whenever possible)
Gas
Move out with your first stalker unless you scouted some sort of reaper play or aggressive 2 rax marauder first. Rally stalkers to that first one. Your goal is the same as in sc1, harass the terran wall, score some marine kills hopefully while only losing shields, and gain scouting info on whether he's trying to expo or not.
Keep adding pylons as necessary
@100 gas robo
@100% robo observer + support bay#
@100% support bay collosus - Chrono this (only produce one you can't afford stalkers + collosi and have gas for the range upgrade on 1 base)
Add 2nd gate
@200 gas get collosus range - Chrono this (this is the most important part of the strategy IMO)
Nexus
3rd/4th gate
*Add twilight council when you have the spare gas (you should have gas at your nat as well by this point so it shouldn't be a problem)
100% twilight council research blink - Chrono this
Continue pumping stalkers/collosi =D (I use chrono on collosus every time and on stalkers when I can)
*note: I've also tried adding this off 2 gates, it really doesn't seem to make a major difference. Do what works best for you I guess.
#note: If you see 2 rax marauder first pressure build, you HAVE to get an immortal as soon as your robo comes up (with chrono boost). It is the only way to deal with that attack with this style of play. It does work though.
Obviously you should be reacting to what the terran is doing because you have a maphack drone in their base. If they have reapers have stalkers around your base just like vs a vulture drop. Keep your units preferrably far enough away (on high ground if possible) that they don't get killed by a push when you aren't looking. =P
Here's what will happen. They will eventually push out, probably when they get medivacs, definitely to kill you. When you see them start to move out, go to the nearest high ground if possible with your collosi, have your stalkers nearby. When the army gets close to you, Engage with the collosi and blink on top of them with stalkers. The important thing is to have all your stalkers do the tanking while your war of the worlds robots wreck the puny humans on the ground.
At this point you can draw an arbiter on your screen with magic marker and declare it a stove victory.
Happy slaughtering protosses!
Additional Notes: Adjusted the build slightly to have 2nd gas after first stalker (so you can get it asap). In addition added proper info on when and when not to move out early. I cut out the midgame followup information because that's for another thread that's soon to come =D
Replays:
http://www.filedropper.com/pvtreplays
*note: I can't remember what happened in those games, those are just a bunch of pvts so you should watch several at least.
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Uhh, do you consider bio to exclude marauders?
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With the new found aggression of the Terrans in SC2 you'll be spending minerals on defending yourself from Marauders. The direct counter to Stalkers, and Colossi. Immortals perform better right now against most Terrans
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So, is this like a build order? Or just the ramblings of one drunk on SC2 beta fun.
No mention of sentries?
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Colossi shouldn't be too much trouble for the terran alone. With sentries though... I've already started having nightmares about that. (terran player)
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Zurich15325 Posts
I haven't played PvT yet, so:
Can you please provide a number of replays on Platinum, specifically against 2 rax builds, as your descriptions differs very much from the majority of PvT experiences posted in this forum? You need to show how you survive 1 gate nexus against a 1 base Terran. Otherwise I will have to close this.
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Sure can do. I'll post it up. Give me a bit.
Ok how the heck do we load up replays since a place like repdepot doesn't like the file extension =/
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On February 20 2010 19:47 zatic wrote:
I haven't played PvT yet, so:
Can you please provide a number of replays on Platinum, specifically against 2 rax builds, as your descriptions differs very much from the majority of PvT experiences posted in this forum? You need to show how you survive 1 gate nexus against a 1 base Terran. Otherwise I will have to close this.
Why would you close a thread? Because you disagree? Lol This is sc2 beta and everything is viable so far.
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Zurich15325 Posts
On February 20 2010 20:31 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 19:47 zatic wrote:
I haven't played PvT yet, so:
Can you please provide a number of replays on Platinum, specifically against 2 rax builds, as your descriptions differs very much from the majority of PvT experiences posted in this forum? You need to show how you survive 1 gate nexus against a 1 base Terran. Otherwise I will have to close this. Why would you close a thread? Because you disagree? Lol This is sc2 beta and everything is viable so far.
No, I would close it because others disagree. Read my post please before replying to it.
No, not everything is viable, where do you get this idea from?
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Close because others disagree? You mean like someone in the early days of sc1 would have "disagreed" with a fast expo build? Interesting. Think they have a word for that btw.. I'll let you figure it out.
Yes, EVERYTHING is viable, in some way or another, this game is built on hard and soft counters, every unit has a place somewhere. Have you even played beta? You should play before replying.
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Don't be silly, not everything is viable. Counterexample: building only Command Centers and SCVs will not net you victory and is thus not competitively viable.
Floophead_III, most people have been using generic file sharing sites such as mediafire and megaupload. See the Official Replay Thread for details.
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On February 20 2010 20:42 EchOne wrote:
Don't be silly, not everything is viable. Counterexample: building only Command Centers and SCVs will not net you victory and is thus not competitively viable.
Floophead_III, most people have been using generic file sharing sites such as mediafire and megaupload. See the Official Replay Thread for details.
Wow, really guy? What a waste of a response. At least pretend to have an intellectual response, or don't respond to it at all. I meant units and strategy in general, try not to narrow your field to something absolutely retarded. More like using mass marine vs baneling, is it effective? No. Could it be viable. Perhaps.
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http://www.filedropper.com/2010-02-2004-50-33
http://www.filedropper.com/2010-02-2006-24-30
Those are 2 replays. I can't really tell how good the terran players were, I have a feeling the 2nd one was not very good cause he decided to split his force while attacking. Regardless, unless people are doing these bio builds wrong, I haven't lost to one yet in platinum. =/
edit:
I think the reason people have such issues is they don't get the range upgrade on the collosus and abuse cliffs correctly. Collosus range upgrade makes them INSANE. You can dance up and down cliffs and kill stuff from afar while your stalkers act as meat shields (they do good damage themselves).
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Zurich15325 Posts
On February 20 2010 20:44 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 20:42 EchOne wrote:
Don't be silly, not everything is viable. Counterexample: building only Command Centers and SCVs will not net you victory and is thus not competitively viable.
Floophead_III, most people have been using generic file sharing sites such as mediafire and megaupload. See the Official Replay Thread for details. Wow, really guy? What a waste of a response. At least pretend to have an intellectual response, or don't respond to it at all. I meant units and strategy in general, try not to narrow your field to something absolutely retarded. More like using mass marine vs baneling, is it effective? No. Could it be viable. Perhaps.
Please read the strategy forum guidelines before you keep posting here. It has a specific section about knowing what you are talking about (apply to the OP) and being respectful (apply to you).
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Yep just won another. He even tried to use reapers. LOL@reapers vs collosus =D
I did have end up going to 3 base vs his 2 base though. Got chargelots (is that a legit term?) then started pumping 6 gate and continuous collosi. The combo of chargelots stalkers with blink and collosi is pretty much rape. Guy was shocked to lose a tvp I think cause he didn't even gg or leave, I had to kill all his buildings lol.
Edit:
Have yet to lose with this BO to bio. I did lose to a banshee build but that's because I didn't realize how much stalkers suck balls vs air LOL.
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Zurich15325 Posts
I don't think anyone doubts that colossi rape bio like nothing, it's how you get there. If you can demonstrate how you 1 gate expand against 1 base terran it won't really matter what you do after that.
Too bad I can't have a look at these replays today as I would be really intersted how you play the early game? Can a couple of T players have a look at that and comment please?
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Well if they're going to be aggressive and 1 base, I don't expo until my collosus is started. I've refined what I'm doing since then, it's perfectly safe. PvZ on the other hand, I'm not sure what protoss has going for them....
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Yeah, i am doubtful as well as to this "BO", i would like to see replays as well. Being on low post count and posting "i stomp every terran with my P build" without even showing proofs is doubtful - yes, you may be right but we didn't see any proof yet so it's hard to believe just before you told so.
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
reapers are going to wreck you
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I really don't think I would let a toss get away with only stalkers till collsi on one gate X_x
I usually move out before stim to test the waters...
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On February 20 2010 23:21 Islandsnake wrote:
I really don't think I would let a toss get away with only stalkers till collsi on one gate X_x
I usually move out before stim to test the waters...
This is true, if you don't make a lot of zealots terran will boom boom crush you like a noob
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Searching TvP practice! My bnet ID is Zoler.zoler!
Anyone who can beat me lets see? (not saying no one can lol!)
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i think the viability of this bo most unfortunately highly correlates with your post count. no offense, but sorry dude.
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On February 20 2010 22:53 Floophead_III wrote:
Well if they're going to be aggressive and 1 base, I don't expo until my collosus is started. I've refined what I'm doing since then, it's perfectly safe. PvZ on the other hand, I'm not sure what protoss has going for them....
I think the main question people have with this build is if its at all viable against "The Zatic build" or simply a one base marauder heavy pressure build. Since marauders are so strong early game you really can not judge this strategy without playing against a terran who uses them alot.
I could see this being extremely effective against someone who does reaper harass into just pure marine/medivac but as of now most "high level" terrans seem to mass marauders (and marines).
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On February 20 2010 23:47 rest_less wrote:
i think the viability of this bo most unfortunately highly correlates with your post count. no offense, but sorry dude.
Hey so do you have a beta key or are you just being a jackass?
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Sending your initial stalkers to outside the terrans base? What if he moves out with his small group of marines and marauders? It's not like you can back up and flee to your base when marauders are slowing you.
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Marauders used correctly will really destroy this build. Your harrass will stop as soon as the first marauder comes out (if it was not stopped by a wall off due to not having blink). Also im curious to why blink is left near the end and comes in after 3 extra gateways 2 robotics facilities and robotics bay. The blink should come in way earlier in your build if your going to be spamming stalkers (which is not something I condone). At the start of beta I tried spamming the stalkers and it was less than favorable.
However stalkers are good support/harrass units but as your main force alone leaves you open to hard counters.
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IMO any sort of early reaper harass destroys Protoss FE. 3 Reapers can take out all of your pylons within like 30 seconds... and since you probably have your units camped in front of your natural expo, taking out all of your pylons doesn't seem that hard with some micro.
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I haven't lost with this. I don't care what you guys think, I produced results so obviously it works. I've fought against early maurader pressure and that first rush I have my collosus out for just in time, then my expo is up, then range finishes and collosi turn into rapefest machines.
I played in platinum league and I've only lost 1 pvt to a banshee build. I think I played about 10.
P.S. I've started getting a slightly earlier 2nd gate, but it kinda sits around idle for a few seconds cause I don't have the gas for 2 gate stalkers with chrono and all the upgrades and tech for collosi, which are like 2x as expensive as reavers were =/
I've updated the BO to reflect the change.
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Are you guys retarded? Seriously. I posted replays already and people here are still HURP DURP IT DOESN'T WORK.
I have a lot of respect for the TL community but this thread looks like a dumbass magnet.
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Okay I'm mixed between whether it works and whether it doesn't work.
I watched the games and you played two very passive terran players. They could've pushed out any time. I'll try the build though and see what happens.
The fact that you weren't using Chrono Boost on your nexus in the beginning, (ur first CB was actually on ur gateway/robo) means you were actually playing too slow anyway.
I'll try the build (if I ever find another Terran player again) and post results.
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On February 21 2010 06:19 Floophead_III wrote:
Are you guys retarded? Seriously. I posted replays already and people here are still HURP DURP IT DOESN'T WORK.
I have a lot of respect for the TL community but this thread looks like a dumbass magnet.
Yeah, like everyone wrote no posts = no skill. What a nonsense.
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I'll post up a more recent game. My play got a lot better over the night. It was only my first day playing. To be fair, a lot of people won't wanna look into the whole thread for replays. I'll edit them into the first post from now on.
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On February 21 2010 06:19 Floophead_III wrote:
Are you guys retarded? Seriously. I posted replays already and people here are still HURP DURP IT DOESN'T WORK.
I have a lot of respect for the TL community but this thread looks like a dumbass magnet.
Woa dude easy on the drama. People disagree with you, no big thing
Just keep pwning ppl with your build if it really works that well and lol.
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Almost every bio pvt game I've seen involves toss having trouble fending off 2-rax aggression, and that's with 2 gates usually. By moving your early stalkers out so aggressively, aren't you vulnerable to reaper harass?
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I don't see how Stalkers only beats Marauders.
You said you faced Marauder pressure builds, and that you won because you got your first Colossus out in time.
That's not a Marauder pressure build, that's a Terran mid-game push.
Everyone in the thread disagreeing with you is talking about how you deal with Marauders off 2 or more Rax making a timing push against you before your Colossus tech is done, right around the time your Robo has just started building.
Stalkers are bad vs. Marauders because Marauders are cost-effective vs. Stalkers. Here are the SC2 Armory links for both:
http://www.sc2armory.com/game/terran/units/marauder
http://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/units/stalker
Both are considered Armored units, so both do bonus damage vs. each other. However, per resource point, Marauders do more damage and have more HP than Stalkers.
Combining Mineral and Gas cost into one resource, you can see that:
Marauders take 125 resources to build.
Stalkers take 175 resources to build.
Marauders deal 20 damage per shot to Stalkers. That means Marauders deal 0.16 damage per resource point to Stalkers.
Stalkers deal 14 damage per shot to Marauders. That means Stalkers deal 0.08 damage per resource point to Marauders.
Marauders deal twice as much damage as Stalkers per resource point. They both have the same range, and fire at the same rate. Marauders are twice as cost-effective as Stalkers in offensive damage.
Marauders have 125 HP. This means that Marauders have 1 point of HP per resource unit.
Stalkers have 80 Shields and 80 HP, for a total of 160 effective HP. This means that Stalkers have roughly 0.9143 points of HP per resource unit.
Marauders have slightly more HP per resource unit than Stalkers. They both have the same base armor, and both get the same +1 armor per upgrade. However, +1 armor only affects the HP of a Stalker, not the shields, so an armor-upgraded Marauder will be even stronger against a Stalker with armor upgrades.
Marauders also take 30 seconds to build, while a Stalker takes 42 seconds. This means Marauders are more time-efficient than Stalkers as well as being more resource-efficient. Protoss can offset this disadvantage slightly with their Chrono Boost thing, but the Nexus doesn't have infinite energy, and there's still the resource-inefficiency to overcome.
I hope with this analysis, you'll see why your build is so weak vs. either extremely early Marauder pressure, with maybe 3-4 Marauders and some Marines harassing you, and also extremely weak against a M&M timing push that is made before your Robo is even finished, much less your Support Bay.
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I had no gas to get collossus AND stalkers. When I did it got murdered.
Bad build, just saying.
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Some of the flak you're also getting is because you're claiming that your build is invincible against all forms of bio without even have faced the most common bio pressure build. If you can add a replay of you defending against two-rax marine-marauder aggression (early) then it would allay a lot of concerns.
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While marauders are cost effective vs stalkers, you can produce stalkers very quickly with the chrono boost. If it's the most common bio pressure build, why have I never seen it? Doesn't that make it uncommon?
I do see the counterargument people have against this. I don't want to sound stubborn, but results are results and until I do lose I have to disagree with what people say. If anyone wants to play vs me to prove me wrong, by all means please do it. It's beta, the whole point is to figure out what works and what doesn't. I just don't like it when people say "it can't work, your build is terrible" when there are contradictory results.
Edit: I posted a small rep pack of pvts
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On February 20 2010 20:37 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
Close because others disagree? You mean like someone in the early days of sc1 would have "disagreed" with a fast expo build? Interesting. Think they have a word for that btw.. I'll let you figure it out.
Yes, EVERYTHING is viable, in some way or another, this game is built on hard and soft counters, every unit has a place somewhere. Have you even played beta? You should play before replying.
You would be smart not to insult a forum moderator. He has played beta becuase he not only made this whole SC2 strat forum but has his own Terran guide.
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On February 21 2010 06:05 Floophead_III wrote:
I haven't lost with this. I don't care what you guys think, I produced results so obviously it works. I've fought against early maurader pressure and that first rush I have my collosus out for just in time, then my expo is up, then range finishes and collosi turn into rapefest machines.
I played in platinum league and I've only lost 1 pvt to a banshee build. I think I played about 10.
P.S. I've started getting a slightly earlier 2nd gate, but it kinda sits around idle for a few seconds cause I don't have the gas for 2 gate stalkers with chrono and all the upgrades and tech for collosi, which are like 2x as expensive as reavers were =/
I've updated the BO to reflect the change.
The real problem here is bolded above. We are just replying with our experiences here and your replays did not address a real early rush. If your going to post a build your going need to convince us or have your replays convince us fully that it would work. Using this as an argument make the discussion one sided.
That being said your build is 4 buildings deep while terrans do not need to go as deep down the tech to counter and pump out enough troops to counter/overwhelm your forces before your build order reaches maturity.
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On February 21 2010 08:58 3FFA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 20:37 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
Close because others disagree? You mean like someone in the early days of sc1 would have "disagreed" with a fast expo build? Interesting. Think they have a word for that btw.. I'll let you figure it out.
Yes, EVERYTHING is viable, in some way or another, this game is built on hard and soft counters, every unit has a place somewhere. Have you even played beta? You should play before replying. You would be smart not to insult a forum moderator. He has played beta becuase he not only made this whole SC2 strat forum but has his own Terran guide.
No wai? He made a WHOLE guide about Terran? Two days after beta release none the less? Jee wilikers, I better watch out.
Paranoia's Terran guide.
Build reapers.
Hai look, I made a guide.
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Ya he did, 2nd page in strat forum.
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I'm a Terran player, and I feel that this wouldn't be exceptionally effective. Granted I obviously cannot say this without a doubt, but I feel that any sort of early game aggression out of 2-3 raxxes would put a severe hurt on you, putting you way behind, or dead.
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I'm a Platinum League Terran currently ranked #3 and I can tell that every Protoss who goes 1 gate -> Nexus dies to every sort of Marine/Marauder or Reaperbuild. There's no way you can defend. I'll the check the replays when I'm at home.
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This isn't a 1 gate nexus. This is a 1 gate collosus build. The nexus comes after your tech is secured and any early aggression averted. I don't know why people keep thinking it's 1 gate nexus. I don't even take my nexus off 1 gate with the version I'm using now, I always get a 2nd gate first. I'll double check the BO to make sure I haven't made any stupid mistakes.
edit: added some notes regarding followup.
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Let me just say, it works against a noob player. I've done it in copper league. (I was like dirt ass bottom on copper rofl, then using a build like this I got to rank 49) So it works against beginners. Not so much against people who double barracks. You just don't have that much time to get a colossus out and stalkers like you would want. But if you quick tech to twilight I guess it's possible to tweak where needed. Maybe change it to double gate early gas. (Two zealots + Sentry) then pump out stalkers like no tomorrow.
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Let me just say I disagree with your theory Floop. I don't want to give away my strategy that I'll be employing once I get in Beta, but there is one unit you are overlooking that changes the whole dynamic of PvT :p
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So has any one found a counter to 2rax marauder build or are people just flaming this guy for trying?
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This is the counter to all 1 base TvP nonmech builds. I just played some games vs Torch and he managed to beat me a couple times with his thor push with raven and ghost. It's a good build. However, I simply skipped coli range for another coli and I won easily after that. Particle is useful for killing 1 coli but if you have more colis than he has thors you can't lose to that push. That being said, you can still use the push to get map control to expo without actually engaging.
All the 2-3 rax builds I've seen fail pretty hard vs this build. The first coli is out way too fast, and it can just cliff abuse all day to slaughter the advancing army.
I don't know why people don't believe me, because until Torch's thor push I never lost a game with it to a bio based build, and even then I proved that it does beat his extremely strong push. In fact you could probably get 2 coli before range if you want to be extra safe vs any build, although the range allows you to kill bunkers missile turrets and fortresses so that's why I have been getting it earlier (to punish expands without seige tanks).
edit: I haven't seen this vs any factory based play, it did fail pretty hard vs banshees but you should never do this build if you scout banshees with your obs anyways.
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On February 22 2010 13:52 HazMat wrote:
So has any one found a counter to 2rax marauder build or are people just flaming this guy for trying?
stalkers with sentry support until you get charge for zealots. Work off 3 gates. If you can fend properly go for the expansion.
You need to really be able to outnumber the M&M... even a couple of seconds off and you won't last.
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Wrong wrong wrong. My build works. If you are losing it's because of improper use of chrono = less units/slower coli. I have SO many replays proving this.
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I lost to a similar build earlier tonight against a #1 ranked platinum toss Azz. I felt pretty helpless. I think maybe if I had better unit positioning when he attacked and could have spread out my army better I may have done better. I went with a medivac build and he made it pretty much impossible to do any damage with a 16 marine drop.
After that game I tried a fast expansion build with fairly quick vikings/ raven. Threw down raven ability that absorbs attacks from photons/stalker, picked off colossus with vikings, and gtfo. I don't think they can have too many stalkers if they are getting 3+ colossus so the raven thing should last a while. This worked against a platinum, but he was a pretty mediocre platinum. Going to try it more tomorrow.
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Well, this build is designed to fight the bio aggression play that is seen by 99% of all terrans. What I do vs a fast expo is go straight into nexus off the obs and don't even get a collosus if I don't scout bio play. I get immortals instead. In the event you do already have the bat basically done, it doesn't hurt to get a collosus, especially cause you can use to harass the natural/main pretty easily on most of these maps. Of course expand before 2nd gateway and don't bother pumping more collosi, you don't wanna fall behind.
On a side note, Azz raped me a pvp, he's a good player. I didn't know on scrap yard 1 gate tech has enough time to fight off a 2 gate =P
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Well I still got a LOT of bio. I just delayed medivacs and went to viking/ravens. I just kept it in my base until the colossi were taken out and then I moved out for the win.
But again, it probably wouldn't work against a better player. It seems sorta effective and it is funny though 
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First of all I don't have beta so feel free to stomp on me, call me names.. etc.
Some of the major complaints about this build are the facts that the entire army shares an armor type that is weak to marauders and the build takes quite a lot of gas. Based on this, wouldn't it theoretically be better to go for a more zealot based army rather than a stalker based one?
This would allow a less imbalanced army (difference in armor types) as well as less strained gas. You could use gas on teching and any extra could be used on a few stalkers/sentries for support.
Like I said before, I don't have beta so this whole theory is probably worthless  At least food for thought?
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On February 22 2010 15:51 JustWeird wrote:First of all I don't have beta so feel free to stomp on me, call me names.. etc. Some of the major complaints about this build is the fact that the entire army shares an armor type that is weak to marauders as well as the fact that the build takes quite a lot of gas. Based on these facts, wouldn't it theoretically be better to go for a more zealot based army rather than a stalker based one? This would allow a less imbalanced army (difference in armor types) as well as less strained gas. You could use all gas on teching and any extra could be used on a few stalkers/sentries for support. Like I said before, I don't have beta so this whole theory is probably worthless At least food for thought?
Marauders only deal 10 damage to immortals, take a ton of damage from immortals, have 600 range which makes it VERY hard to hit collosi without perfect positioning, and collosi do a ton of damage to marauders as well in a huge line.
In day[9]'s show last night he went over this match up and also had a similar build order for toss as this one. His show ended with him having counters to what terran did, but I don't think he really had any counters for toss deciding to counter the terran with more immortals or more colossi.
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Have none of you actually watch Day[9]'s cast today? Terran going 2 rax M&M can not only fend off most stuff coming at him early on from the Protoss (hi Immortals), he can safely expand and even apply pressure.
To stop 2 base Terran bio Protoss needs to rush (literaly) for colossuses just to survive the early-mid game and hope that T won't add banshee's or tanks to the mix later on as it's going to just rape zealot/colossus combo.
It's all just an unfinished theory because there still has to be found some reasonable mid-game switch for both races that would allow for a transition to lategame. From what I saw so far most games end rather fast (ie. someone has better unit composition in the initial fight = game over).
There's still a lot of time/effort needed to establish a 'safe' or 'standard' builds for all matchups that would allow for the game to develop a bit more.
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You do know day[9] lost the game he fast expanded. He didn't know what to do after that and never gave any answer other then "thors!".
His cast was why I tried fast expo into raven/ viikings though.
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I know he did lose the game eventually. But he did won his initial fight with colossuses (3 of them with some supporting stalkers), he just didn't know what to transition into (which isn't surprising seeing how it was probably the first time he went that far against this strategy and didn't really plan anything past that point).
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I'm going to post up a full PvT guide in a few days when I actually have more experience with mid/lategame. The problem is I just win all my games immediately because everyone goes for some sort of allin attack and loses with it. I have a pretty solid early/mid/lategame strategy down, it just has absolutely no refinement right now.
I really need to learn how to stream effectively because it's obvious showing is better than telling =/
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I raped azz tvp, and im not even that good, u prob didnt play anyone good yet (and I use bio mostly)
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On February 22 2010 16:15 cuteFayth wrote:
I raped azz tvp, and im not even that good, u prob didnt play anyone good yet (and I use bio mostly)
Want to elaborate? Because that post was worthless.
Were you aggressive early? Did you expand pretty quickly or turtle up? Did you make any reapers or drop him? Etc.
Edit:
I guess you were temp banned. Maybe you can expand on your build in a couple days eh?
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Against terran on a map with ramp, get observer asap, check what he's doing. If marauder/marine push, chronoboost sentry to block your ramp and go for a collousus drop.
Chronoboosting sentrys from 1gate makes you able to block the ramp for pretty much as long as you want to. So you can just fly with your first collosus immediatly to his base. If he's beeing stubborn and camping outside your ramp waiting for you to run out of energy (which you won't) you'll be able to score some very nice harass.
Most terran I've met does the marauder/marine push into expand and getting tanks + medivacs. If they expand I usually end the game with a couple of zealots sentrys and 2collosus with shuttle(flying pylon thingy) If they only have bio units they melt so fast if they can't aim the collosuses. Maps without ramps is a bit trickier, I've found immortals working pretty ok while holding off for collosus. This is ofc only against marine/marauder opening, the key is the fast observer.
Lurker burrows
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I'll definitely check this build out, terran is pretty scary for me.
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Floophead, I think you have to concede in light of the weight of people telling you that mass stalkers are going to get rolled by mass marines/marauders that they are right because it's true. Rushing to stalkers is a very decent option to defend against early reaper harrass, which might be what is giving you enough of an edge to believe your build is super effective against terran bio, especially because early reaper harass is very common.
Unfortunately if your terran oponent decided to go for 2rax marine you'll have somewhere in the region of *a lot* of marines outside your base by the time you're popping out your first or second pair of stalkers. Their bullet riddled corpses will kinda demonstrate the problems with massing stalkers in the early game.
I can't post new threads here, and I'm not a known or even a highly skilled player of either Starcraft or the Starcraft 2 Beta so I find it unlikely that my opinion will be given any particular weight, but I have written my own guide to countering Terran bio pressure, for some friends on another forum. I have to say that it differs from this in almost every way except of course the importance placed on scouting and reacting correctly. Yes some Stalkers are the way to go vs Reaper Harrass, but when the terran moves into heavy bio pressure, or opens up that way with a big marine or marine/marauder rush/push then you're going to be in masses of trouble. You need a couple of Sentries for the shields and tactical use of the force fields, some zealots and some stalkers and maybe some static defence as they can simply push out units far faster than you through the use of the reactor.
Even with warp gates decreasing your effective build time a Terran can push out 2 marines 3 seconds faster than you can get a zealot, or 12 seconds faster than you can get a stalker. That amounts to a significant early game numerical advantage for the Terran. I'd appreciate some explanation as to how an aggressive Terran will manage not to roll you over while you tech to Colossi without at the very least some Sentries, zeal meat shields, possibly static defence if you aren't comfortable using the Sentries ingeniously or other means to prevent your few stalkers becoming a few corpses.
Briefly, the PvT I've played tends towards me as toss scouting either reaper harass or a typical heavy pressure bio build and responding to that first push either by turtling slightly or being ready to drive off/kill the reapers. The Terran will continue massing M&M and begin working on adding Medivacs as soon as he can manage it, usually after expanding. The toss needs to hold off the constant pressure of the terran infantry while getting his natural up, and yes tech to Colossi as indeed with the range upgrade a small number of Colossi are essentially a hard counter to any amount of Terran infantry, and they only become better with the ground weapons upgrade which you will have been investing in.
Vikings seem the best and logical counter from Terrans to Colossi due to their high damage vs armoured targets, their extremely long range (9), their cheapness, and their status as a unit that doesn't require a tech lab to build (so you can double up production with reactors). In this phase you do need a lot of Stalkers to deal with the Vikings, with blink being very important and rather more useful with Colossi providing vision up cliffs, though you need to be careful not to let your Stalkers get lured too far away from the safety of the Colossi and turned via MMM into bullet riddled corpses, but you can't afford to let your Colossi get sniped either.
I've only played a relatively small number games like this as it's only been a rather small number of days since the release of the Beta so I certainly don't make claims of being an expert, or researching a BO, but I have looked at what I'm up against typically and put thought into how to counter it and how my counter will likely be dealt with. I've only played three games so far where the Terran had the presence of mind to switch up tech to Vikings after I lasted out against the pressure and got the Colossi tech going. Several have carried on pumping MMM and several others have pretty much GG'd as soon as my Colossi evaporated one of his attacks. I'm really hoping to get to play against some more Terran soon, or get a practice partner who plays Terran to continue working on my play, so I'm sure that as only some preliminary theorycrafting this will be subject to extreme change.
On the other hand you claim to offer a definitive build order that slaughters Terrans regularly in the Platinum League. It seems a little odd and the lack of credibility of what amounts to "built lots of stalkers, and tech colossi very fast" is why people are having difficulty taking your guide seriously, I suspect. It just seems rather far fetched that this would actually work against anything other than a terran who has decided to tech, or is non-aggressive/poorly macroed in the early and through to the mid game.
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floophead, I have a number of questions.
do you normally set the pace if the game proceeds?
If you set the pace, what units or strategy do you aim for?
If not, how do you react to viking/banshee/raven harass if you scout it in time? I've seen psyonic have some success with this and personally am really glad I haven't played any terrans that went air in PvT or TvT. Vikings' air attack and banshee's ground attack just seem so strong. If they turtle, it's like PvZ sair/reaver.
Also, have you had any trouble with ghosts? I've only played 1 PvT where the opponent built ghosts, EMP was pretty powerful. I think I would've lost if I wasn't better at macro and if my opponent was more aggressive at countering after beating my initial push. I think he probably could've dealt a ton of sniping damage on my zealots if he microed a bit more.
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Poobah, I've beaten every single bio opening with this build or a modification of it. I've played some good players who've told me they've never lost to a protoss before. This build simply has no weaknesses to any 1 base push. It's not a matter of opinion. This is fact.
ccou, I always set the pace for the game if it proceeds. If the terran attacks and I beat it often I can counter for the win right there. If the terran gives up and goes for an expansion I have map control and a superior army so I can expand again and move to my midgame plan. I'll detail my midgame plan more in another thread when I work out exactly the best build to do.
As for viking/banshee, first your probe should be able to scout his factory going up super early with almost no bio being made. If he's not opening reapers you can actually camp outside his ramp with your stalkers assuming he's not going some super aggressive 2 rax pressure build. These should be the first hints that this kind of play is coming. Your observer will confirm your suspicions. Don't make a robo bay. If you did, don't make collosi and cut your losses on wasted tech, because collosi don't hit air. Add a stargate and a 2nd gate and start pumping out mass stalker/obs/voidray. The good news is terran can either go viking heavy or banshee heavy but not really both on 1 base. If you keep him from expanding eventually you'll just have more units and either be able to outright kill him or expand yourself.
edit: forgot about ghosts. Ghosts suck for protoss in a whole new way. Emp is really easy to get and it's a massive pain in the ass and turns your stalkers into flubber, immortals into flubber, and everything you have into flubber. Your best bet vs ghosts is to either magically snipe it before it can emp, have your units spread out as best you can, and just have enough stuff it doesn't matter. As for zealots... I don't get them pvt until much later. It's nothing new, sc1 was the same way.
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On February 22 2010 22:23 Floophead_III wrote:
Poobah, I've beaten every single bio opening with this build or a modification of it. I've played some good players who've told me they've never lost to a protoss before. This build simply has no weaknesses to any 1 base push. It's not a matter of opinion. This is fact.
ccou, I always set the pace for the game if it proceeds. If the terran attacks and I beat it often I can counter for the win right there. If the terran gives up and goes for an expansion I have map control and a superior army so I can expand again and move to my midgame plan. I'll detail my midgame plan more in another thread when I work out exactly the best build to do.
As for viking/banshee, first your probe should be able to scout his factory going up super early with almost no bio being made. If he's not opening reapers you can actually camp outside his ramp with your stalkers assuming he's not going some super aggressive 2 rax pressure build. These should be the first hints that this kind of play is coming. Your observer will confirm your suspicions. Don't make a robo bay. If you did, don't make collosi and cut your losses on wasted tech, because collosi don't hit air. Add a stargate and a 2nd gate and start pumping out mass stalker/obs/voidray. The good news is terran can either go viking heavy or banshee heavy but not really both on 1 base. If you keep him from expanding eventually you'll just have more units and either be able to outright kill him or expand yourself.
edit: forgot about ghosts. Ghosts suck for protoss in a whole new way. Emp is really easy to get and it's a massive pain in the ass and turns your stalkers into flubber, immortals into flubber, and everything you have into flubber. Your best bet vs ghosts is to either magically snipe it before it can emp, have your units spread out as best you can, and just have enough stuff it doesn't matter. As for zealots... I don't get them pvt until much later. It's nothing new, sc1 was the same way.
Congratulations you found Terran's best unit. I would really like to test my theorycraft Bio/Air build out on yours whenever I get Beta (Hopefully 2nd Wave since I am also a Blizzcon08er).
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this build has many many flaws
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Much like your post. Either point them out in a constructive manner or keep it to yourself.
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Made a few slight adjustments. See "additional notes".
Rothbardian: I will gladly play you when you get your key. Hopefully I'll get mine too I'm in the same boat, but fortunately my friend has been very generous with letting me use his account.
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Do you have any replays specifically countering early marine/marauder? I downloaded the pack and looked through a few but I couldn't find any. I think I'm one of the few people here that isn't instantly doubting this build but I'd still very much like to see it happening.
And the thing most people here don't seem to realize is that it really doesn't matter if it loses to particular early aggression builds, if you scout them and see they're not going that then you've got very strong options using this and its something you can scout early enough you can identify whether they're teching or going for aggression. Same shit as SC1 - you're hardly gonna 1 gate expo pvt if you scout 2rax are you? All about adaptation.
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Alright this is what I did against AI the build seems fairly quick if done right (I'm actually starting to do a nice tech compared to 5 days ago and spend my minerals respectively.
http://bit.ly/caF5w3 Check the VOD. Going to test it a few times.
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Alright I did a TON of testing with TorcH and discovered something:
First and foremost, 2 gate stalker is a completely trashy useless build that should never be used because with chrono you can get like 1 less stalk + tech + better eco from 1 gate it's hilarious.
Second and most importantly, the 2 rax m&m push with stim with 3 marauder and 4 marines is very strong vs this BO. I was able to hold it a few times by pulling probes, but he didn't rally. He then played it more aggressive and I couldn't hold it.
HOWEVER, I discovered a viable counter to it. If you believe you are facing a 2 rax push, get an immortal asap (chrono it). You will probably lose a lot of stalkers but you can hold the push with minimal damage. Don't be afraid to still pull about 3-4 probes.
This push is a little too strong right now and I feel like marauders probably should cost 50 gas for how incredibly good they are (1 = a stalker exactly, they will kill each other.) Just scout properly and micro as best you can and adjust the BO to get that fast immortal. You should be able to hold it off and proceed safely to midgame. The downside to this is that T can damage you AND get a faster expo up. The upside is that you have superior tech and can expo immediately afterwards and pressure him with collosus/immortal + stalkers. I was able to contain and easily outmacro after holding off the attack.
I will update as needed on the main page.
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On February 23 2010 09:54 Floophead_III wrote:
Second and most importantly, the 2 rax m&m push with stim with 3 marauder and 4 marines is very strong vs this BO. I was able to hold it a few times by pulling probes, but he didn't rally. He then played it more aggressive and I couldn't hold it.
Good to see that you've discovered this and are working on updating your build. This is what earlier potsters have meen mentionioning.
I'd suggest always getting a Sentry. The -2 incoming ranged damage bubble is rediculously good against low damage ranged units like marines.
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I experimented with getting a sentry in place of the 3rd stalker or so. It worked fairly well but did eat up some gas I would've liked for midgame. I think it's a tradeoff.
(on a side note, good ol 2 gate zealot actually rapes this push pretty hard as you just get SO many zealots, so there is a downside to the push)
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On February 23 2010 17:50 Floophead_III wrote:
I experimented with getting a sentry in place of the 3rd stalker or so. It worked fairly well but did eat up some gas I would've liked for midgame. I think it's a tradeoff.
(on a side note, good ol 2 gate zealot actually rapes this push pretty hard as you just get SO many zealots, so there is a downside to the push)
Yep 2 gate zealot or a 2 rax reactor/tech mass marine/maruaders are a pain as well. (As you mentioned) I've done a modified version of this build.
I actually want to do another modified version of this build but do an early tech to Void Ray's.
I was actually playing around with a friend earlier and I built a starport before robo pretty damn early and got two void ray's up and it was pretty much GG from there with my 6-7 stalkers + 2 void ray's since the void rays just raped ground. Using a few phoenix's as support (Mutas)
Only played tried the above PvZ though.
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Zurich15325 Posts
On February 23 2010 09:54 Floophead_III wrote:
Alright I did a TON of testing with TorcH and discovered something:
First and foremost, 2 gate stalker is a completely trashy useless build that should never be used because with chrono you can get like 1 less stalk + tech + better eco from 1 gate it's hilarious.
Second and most importantly, the 2 rax m&m push with stim with 3 marauder and 4 marines is very strong vs this BO. I was able to hold it a few times by pulling probes, but he didn't rally. He then played it more aggressive and I couldn't hold it.
So you have finally "discovered" what people have been telling you repeatedly from page 1 on. What exactly is left of your "BO that stomps on bio" when you actually need a different BO (2 gate, sentry / immortal) to even survive against the most easy and basic bio build.
Hardly anything from your original guide is left at this point and what you have there now is pretty much the standard every single P on B.net does against T.
Please do not post another guide until you gained a lot more understanding about this game. A revised set of forum guidelines will be posted soon under which threads like these will be closed in the future.
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On February 23 2010 09:54 Floophead_III wrote:
Alright I did a TON of testing with TorcH and discovered something:
First and foremost, 2 gate stalker is a completely trashy useless build that should never be used because with chrono you can get like 1 less stalk + tech + better eco from 1 gate it's hilarious.
Second and most importantly, the 2 rax m&m push with stim with 3 marauder and 4 marines is very strong vs this BO. I was able to hold it a few times by pulling probes, but he didn't rally. He then played it more aggressive and I couldn't hold it.
HOWEVER, I discovered a viable counter to it. If you believe you are facing a 2 rax push, get an immortal asap (chrono it). You will probably lose a lot of stalkers but you can hold the push with minimal damage. Don't be afraid to still pull about 3-4 probes.
This push is a little too strong right now and I feel like marauders probably should cost 50 gas for how incredibly good they are (1 = a stalker exactly, they will kill each other.) Just scout properly and micro as best you can and adjust the BO to get that fast immortal. You should be able to hold it off and proceed safely to midgame. The downside to this is that T can damage you AND get a faster expo up. The upside is that you have superior tech and can expo immediately afterwards and pressure him with collosus/immortal + stalkers. I was able to contain and easily outmacro after holding off the attack.
I will update as needed on the main page.
That's ironic I open 2 gate stalker + 1 sentry and it seems to work well. I can either get a robo after or get a third gate, then expand and typically I'm fine...
I've been experimenting with the colossus a bit recently (in all matchups) and the unit is a death storm of trouble, but it's very costly. I'm also trying to figure out what the significance of getting an immortal is. I use it but I don't know why I use it.
I'm still not sold on your build, and if you have more reps I'd like to see them when I have the chance to watch.
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On February 23 2010 22:20 zatic wrote:
So you have finally "discovered" what people have been telling you repeatedly from page 1 on. What exactly is left of your "BO that stomps on bio" when you actually need a different BO (2 gate, sentry / immortal) to even survive against the most easy and basic bio build.
Hardly anything from your original guide is left at this point and what you have there now is pretty much the standard every single P on B.net does against T.
Please do not post another guide until you gained a lot more understanding about this game. A revised set of forum guidelines will be posted soon under which threads like these will be closed in the future.
I actually find this thread and the consecutive updates to the build great. It shows a build, what it stops, what stops it, and ways to adapt the build depending on what you scout.
Adjusting your build based off feedback from the community is a good thing.
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Zurich15325 Posts
On February 23 2010 23:55 P00RKID wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 22:20 zatic wrote:
So you have finally "discovered" what people have been telling you repeatedly from page 1 on. What exactly is left of your "BO that stomps on bio" when you actually need a different BO (2 gate, sentry / immortal) to even survive against the most easy and basic bio build.
Hardly anything from your original guide is left at this point and what you have there now is pretty much the standard every single P on B.net does against T.
Please do not post another guide until you gained a lot more understanding about this game. A revised set of forum guidelines will be posted soon under which threads like these will be closed in the future. I actually find this thread and the consecutive updates to the build great. It shows a build, what it stops, what stops it, and ways to adapt the build depending on what you scout. Adjusting your build based off feedback from the community is a good thing.
Yes but making a bad thread in the first place where rewriting it based on feedback is needed is not. Also if you look at how he reacted to criticism from pages 1-4 only, brushing it with statements like he never lost against bio bla bla only to "discover" why his build is gets trashed by the most simple bio build. Which he claimed it would "stomp on".
"If you think bio is useful tvp, you are sorely mistaken. "
"This is the counter to all 1 base TvP nonmech builds."
"Wrong wrong wrong. My build works. If you are losing it's because of improper use of chrono = less units/slower coli."
"Well, this build is designed to fight the bio aggression play that is seen by 99% of all terrans."
"I've beaten every single bio opening with this build or a modification of it."
"This build simply has no weaknesses to any 1 base push. It's not a matter of opinion. This is fact."
....
" the 2 rax m&m push with stim with 3 marauder and 4 marines is very strong vs this BO. I was able to hold it a few times by pulling probes, but he didn't rally. He then played it more aggressive and I couldn't hold it."
New Forum Guidelines in effect now. You may take the lessons learned from this thread and create new strategy threads adhering to the new guidelines.
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EPT
