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So I hear people are having problems with marauders? How about reapers?
Their D-8 charges annihilate buildings. If they slip in your base unnoticed it's pretty much game. And I'm not talking about a squadron of 12, just a handful. All Terran needs is about 4 of those guys, 2 from each racks when they double up. Once they make the add-ons they're pumping 4 at a time. With stim... ugh... I don't even know what to say.
Am I the only one? They're OP like reavers were in Broodwar, except you can get them at the beginning of the game when zerg/toss can't do crap about 'em.
I mean, sure, I'll throw down a sunken in my mineral line in case my opponent is reaper-rushing. But what does that do? It throws away 150 minerals and the Terran knows it. He just blows right through it.
Ultimately, I can hold off a reaper rush. But only if I keep my army in my base. There is no leaving the base when there are reapers running around.
*Sigh* Once again, am I just retarded? And if so, what do you guys do against it?
Keep in mind, there is no scouting a Terran wall-off. You just have to guess it's coming.
edit: It's funny just how fast things can turn on their head. Now, if I see a terran rushing reapers, I just sit back and relax. Cuz that's an insta-win for me. They could probably still work, but not without a multipronged atk.
So please, ignore this ignorant post :p
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First, I agree reapers are OP atm. (I am pretty much winning w/ them exclusively).
However, they do not get stim, the only upgrades they get are the normal armor/attack from the ebay and a movement speed upgrade from the tech addon. They require the tech addon, so T is only ever producing 1 from each rax at a time, you can't use the reactor.
I don't know what race you are, but if you're zerg, queens rape the reapers. As do spine crawlers if they're in the right place. If you can delay until you get roaches/hydras, the investment for the T in reapers won't pay off and you should be at an advantage. You just can't FE against a terran in SC2 atm.
Just keep in mind SC2 is not an SC clone with better graphics. Terran seems to own the early map control like zerg did in SC.
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Hm, alrighty. I'll try again then.
Many thanks.
I saw them zipping around like lightning and just figured it was stim. I hate reapers :/
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you cant build 2 at a time and they aren't very smart when they jump. Get a queen and a sunken and there is no way 4(or even 6) can do any substantial damage. They also cost 50 gas each.. which is quite a bit.
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fyi, reapers dont stim or throw d8 bombs anymore.
They have nitro pack upgrade that makes them move faster. and they now have 2 attacks, 1 for ground (Rapes light)and 1 for structure (rapes). Both of which are rape.
10 of them can easily smash a whole probe line and destroy the nexus in about 5-10 seconds.
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ohhhhh god i wish my computer didnt break
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I've noticed with half a control group of reapers I can take down supply depots in a matter of seconds. Really great ninjas, but against anything that isn't light they seem to crumble. Of course, that's why you get the speed upgrade early and run from anything that isn't light. A few of the maps are really reaper friendly; specifically, the ones where the mains aren't in corners or against the edges of maps.
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Great, the terrans figured out a way to get their own version of the DT, I wonder what was used to make this annoying hybrid?
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Zurich15365 Posts
Reapers are terrible against Zerg. It's almost impossible to hide them and if the Zerg knows they are coming it's no problem at all. Simple speedlings deflect that and after that the Terran sits there with a dead end tech, lots of gas spend and no expansion.
Here is my standard build all against Terran which absolutely rapes reapers:
10 ovi
13 pool
13 gas
15 ovi
15 queen
17 zergling
Kill scout, get zergling speed at 100/100.
You can get away with another round of drones if he is going reapers, they will take a while.
At 100 gas get lair.
When speed is about to finish make like 10-12 zerglings. Keep them hidden so he runs his reapers into your main. Surround, a-move, done.
Get hydra den, expo, and make only hydra and drones. Free win from here, T won't be able to take his nat against the hydra. To attack make a lot of Zerglings again, he might use the addons for marauders.
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On February 19 2010 12:01 zatic wrote:
Reapers are terrible against Zerg. It's almost impossible to hide them and if the Zerg knows they are coming it's no problem at all. Simple speedlings deflect that and after that the Terran sits there with a dead end tech, lots of gas spend and no expansion.
Here is my standard build all against Terran which absolutely rapes reapers:
10 ovi
13 pool
13 gas
15 ovi
15 queen
17 zergling
How many lings do you generally make?
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Zurich15365 Posts
On February 19 2010 12:06 Vedic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2010 12:01 zatic wrote:
Reapers are terrible against Zerg. It's almost impossible to hide them and if the Zerg knows they are coming it's no problem at all. Simple speedlings deflect that and after that the Terran sits there with a dead end tech, lots of gas spend and no expansion.
Here is my standard build all against Terran which absolutely rapes reapers:
10 ovi
13 pool
13 gas
15 ovi
15 queen
17 zergling How many lings do you generally make?
Depending on what I see. Initially only 2 to kill the scout. From then on depending what my overlord or my scouting lings see. Against the reapers I make 2 rounds of drones then about 12 lings which is when they normally attack with 5-6 reapers.
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I've seen a few terrans make reapers, but I've never lost to them. When I scout them I leave a couple roaches in my mineral line. It only takes about 2 roaches to ruin a half a control group of reapers' day. Then there is nothing at home to defend.
However the calibre of players I've gotten so far is low, and my games limited.
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I've had more problems with terran turtle and somehow making as much mins as me with half the workers and no expos and then sending a huge all ball of shit to me and without lurker not quite sure what to do.
Speed lings generally work very well against anything in small numbers like a reaper raid.
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Haha oh man, I didn't realize how good the speed upgrade was for Reapers. If I had better multi-tasking, I could have owned this Protoss so much faster... With speed, they completely destroy Zealots.... and can easily outrun stalkers (especially with cliff jumping)
As it is, I killed like 4-5 buildings and 12+ zealots running around with 6 reapers for a few minutes. Couldn't keep the macro up at home to really take advantage of it though.  (Still won)
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
i just had a guy open 1rax reaper tvp and he sent his 1st reaper to my base which at that time i only had 1 zealot.
i fended off hsi rush but it definitely gave him the edge and i got my new dragoon unit with blink thing as quickly as is even possible, the reaper can just manipulate the zealot everywhere, it seems unfair that it can get to my base so quickly.
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If you arent prepare you lose? Sounds a lot like DT in BW.
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except they aren't invisible. The Possibilities!
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I want to know what Artosis thinks about them  Vultures with jet packs...
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
vultures with jet packs that can take down nexuses as fast as sieged tanks wtf kinda bull!
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People are still too invested in thinking about Terran like in brood war, now a terran contains you early with reapers, and you're like: ZOMG UNPOSSIBLE, MUST BE IMBA.
I'm not saying they are balanced, I'm just saying people jump to the IMBA conclusion waaay too fast.
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On February 20 2010 04:40 Catch]22 wrote:
People are still too invested in thinking about Terran like in brood war, now a terran contains you early with reapers, and you're like: ZOMG UNPOSSIBLE, MUST BE IMBA.
I'm not saying they are balanced, I'm just saying people jump to the IMBA conclusion waaay too fast.
no, not just contain, DESTROY. Half a control group of reapers is all the terran needs to destroy protoss opponents. They are a combination(I feel) of a sieged tank, a vulture, and a DT. The reaper may become like the vulture in TvP. The new fire vulture units may end up being used less because of how powerful the reaper is. Besides, very few called it imba. Its just unfair since they cost so little and can deal 400 damage seriously fast.
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Talking about damage, how much do they deal against Buildings?
Edit: nvm, check sc2armory, it's 40, wow. And at the same attack speed that normal fire?
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Just got rushed by 6 reapers and it cost me the game. any good counters/ways to prepare in TvT?
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On February 20 2010 06:42 CynanMachae wrote:
Talking about damage, how much do they deal against Buildings?
Edit: nvm, check sc2armory, it's 40, wow. And at the same attack speed that normal fire?
No, attack speed is like half or maybe 1/3
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On February 20 2010 07:02 zeox wrote:
Just got rushed by 6 reapers and it cost me the game. any good counters/ways to prepare in TvT?
Copy his build until you get stopped, then copy their build, surefire way to improve.
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Ya, i just got raped PvT by about 12ish reapers myself. Sentry's force field are no good since they can just jump your ramp, zealots get raped, stalkers get raped. I guess stalker with sentry shield bubble? It's definitely going to be finding counter.
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I think the main problem with reapers might be that they're the only unit that can pass cliffs before tier 2. I don't think a unit should not have such a huge mobility advantage so early in the game.
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United States24767 Posts
On February 20 2010 11:40 Talith wrote:
Ya, i just got raped PvT by about 12ish reapers myself. Sentry's force field are no good since they can just jump your ramp, zealots get raped, stalkers get raped. I guess stalker with sentry shield bubble? It's definitely going to be finding counter.
I don't think stalkers get raped by them to be honest...
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I'm so happy to see people thinking the way they did, i mean they don't only said this unit or that hability is OP but instead they said we must find a counter to it. :D
As protoss, i deal with 2 canon for keep them busy for let my stalker get to them and in mid game charge zlot a pretty strong to stop the harras
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Thinking like SC1, where cannons raped infantry, couldn't you just open up with forge -> nexus vs terran (expand that is) and have 2-3 cannons at each base? it sounds like reapers are quite an investment in tech so if you have cannons (no army) to stop him..? as don't reapers attack bonus vs building need an upgrade? or no?
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United States24767 Posts
On February 20 2010 14:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Thinking like SC1, where cannons raped infantry, couldn't you just open up with forge -> nexus vs terran (expand that is) and have 2-3 cannons at each base? it sounds like reapers are quite an investment in tech so if you have cannons (no army) to stop him..? as don't reapers attack bonus vs building need an upgrade? or no?
A strong protoss opened forge cannon cannon at the choke outside their nat and then took a nexus... by the time I got 1 reaper there they had a couple of stalkers...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 19 2010 12:01 zatic wrote:
Reapers are terrible against Zerg. It's almost impossible to hide them and if the Zerg knows they are coming it's no problem at all. Simple speedlings deflect that and after that the Terran sits there with a dead end tech, lots of gas spend and no expansion.
Here is my standard build all against Terran which absolutely rapes reapers:
10 ovi
13 pool
13 gas
15 ovi
15 queen
17 zergling
Kill scout, get zergling speed at 100/100.
You can get away with another round of drones if he is going reapers, they will take a while.
At 100 gas get lair.
When speed is about to finish make like 10-12 zerglings. Keep them hidden so he runs his reapers into your main. Surround, a-move, done.
Get hydra den, expo, and make only hydra and drones. Free win from here, T won't be able to take his nat against the hydra. To attack make a lot of Zerglings again, he might use the addons for marauders.
You think lings are good vs Reapers? :o I've had a loooot more trouble vs zergs who get Roaches if I Reaper rush - I mean vs lings you can actually micro and not take damage. Roaches? You do little damage and get raped in seconds >_<
On February 20 2010 14:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Thinking like SC1, where cannons raped infantry, couldn't you just open up with forge -> nexus vs terran (expand that is) and have 2-3 cannons at each base? it sounds like reapers are quite an investment in tech so if you have cannons (no army) to stop him..? as don't reapers attack bonus vs building need an upgrade? or no?
Mm, I don't see why you'd even want cannons vs that, unless your plan is to cannon your expo AND your main. Reapers can just jump up cliffs and bypass the cannons at your nat completely otherwise.
White-ra (assuming it's the real one) tried to no gate expo vs me on Desert Oasis and I think it could have worked if he'd had a spotter @ each path to my base, so he could have prepared himself better when he saw my marine/marauder rush coming.
Anyway, I haven't played with reapers much vs protoss or terran really, mostly just vs Zerg.
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On February 20 2010 15:02 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2010 12:01 zatic wrote:
Reapers are terrible against Zerg. It's almost impossible to hide them and if the Zerg knows they are coming it's no problem at all. Simple speedlings deflect that and after that the Terran sits there with a dead end tech, lots of gas spend and no expansion.
Here is my standard build all against Terran which absolutely rapes reapers:
10 ovi
13 pool
13 gas
15 ovi
15 queen
17 zergling
Kill scout, get zergling speed at 100/100.
You can get away with another round of drones if he is going reapers, they will take a while.
At 100 gas get lair.
When speed is about to finish make like 10-12 zerglings. Keep them hidden so he runs his reapers into your main. Surround, a-move, done.
Get hydra den, expo, and make only hydra and drones. Free win from here, T won't be able to take his nat against the hydra. To attack make a lot of Zerglings again, he might use the addons for marauders. You think lings are good vs Reapers? :o I've had a loooot more trouble vs zergs who get Roaches if I Reaper rush - I mean vs lings you can actually micro and not take damage. Roaches? You do little damage and get raped in seconds >_< Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 14:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Thinking like SC1, where cannons raped infantry, couldn't you just open up with forge -> nexus vs terran (expand that is) and have 2-3 cannons at each base? it sounds like reapers are quite an investment in tech so if you have cannons (no army) to stop him..? as don't reapers attack bonus vs building need an upgrade? or no? Mm, I don't see why you'd even want cannons vs that, unless your plan is to cannon your expo AND your main. Reapers can just jump up cliffs and bypass the cannons at your nat completely otherwise. White-ra (assuming it's the real one) tried to no gate expo vs me on Desert Oasis and I think it could have worked if he'd had a spotter @ each path to my base, so he could have prepared himself better when he saw my marine/marauder rush coming. Anyway, I haven't played with reapers much vs protoss or terran really, mostly just vs Zerg.
Indeed I was referring to cannon both. This might be a green light for the Terran to expand without hesitation, but it sounded like to me if they are actually GOING reapers (aka they're getting the tech before you cannon), then it's wasted tech due to the static defense. I'd assume very early on you'd only need like 1 cannon at each base vs the first 3-4 reapers? then add a second as they are getting 5-6, and then despite you having 4 cannons you should have some form of units soon after, correct? Keep in mind I don't even have the beta, I was just bored reading this.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I dunno how good cannons are vs reapers tho... Reapers are EXTREMELY fragile, but they deal 40 damage to buildings... So that's like 1 volley if you have even just a few reapers in your force :S
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(I am doing a reaper opening every game at the moment and here's what I prevents me from the insta-win early game)
PvT:
Just get stalkers (skip the zealot) and make sure everything you have is powered by more than one pylon (a T can kill a pylon before the first stalker warps in if they feel like sacrificing a reaper). Keep the stalkers at any likely cliff jumping points (AKA mineral line) and just play a tight defense. Then tech up to w/e or do a timing attack, it's pretty much an even game from there on if you can prevent the reapers from doing any damage (which it is possible).
Edit: responding to previous posts: cannons alone are very weak vs reapers. 3-4 reapers can destroy the cannons w/o dying and just move into w/e opening you've left. Microed reapers should not die at all to cannons and will just come back later with full life after the medivacs come in.
TvT: Marauder as fast as possible. The slow will make it so the reapers would have to suicide to actually do anything (which is in your advantage). Also don't bother walling off, it spreads out your base too much making supply depots easy targets and it doesn't prevent the reapers from getting in on the current maps. Then just tech up and you should be at the advantage.
ZvT: Keep your queen near your mineral line, but ready to move out if the reapers are attacking any buildings like your roach warren. A spine crawler or two definitely helps too. Do not bother chasing with lings as you're just going to throw them away and its better to save them until you get speed.
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Wow I feel like reaper dmg vs building should be a research ability/upgrade (aka reaper bonus dmg vs buildings +25) and have the standard at like 15. But I'll wait to play the game myself first haha..
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I dont think its a problem with the reaper. Reapers can't do anything if you react fast enough and I think a good fix would be to put the probe lines in the middle of terrain instead of right beside the damn cliff. On the map with 4 spawns and forest terrain, they moved from one cliff on the right side to the one on the topleft faster(circling around) than i did with marauders and marines travelling straight =_=
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i feel like buildings die faster than units lol.
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On February 20 2010 16:09 TorcH wrote:
(I am doing a reaper opening every game at the moment and here's what I prevents me from the insta-win early game)
PvT:
Just get stalkers (skip the zealot) and make sure everything you have is powered by more than one pylon (a T can kill a pylon before the first stalker warps in if they feel like sacrificing a reaper). Keep the stalkers at any likely cliff jumping points (AKA mineral line) and just play a tight defense. Then tech up to w/e or do a timing attack, it's pretty much an even game from there on if you can prevent the reapers from doing any damage (which it is possible).
Edit: responding to previous posts: cannons alone are very weak vs reapers. 3-4 reapers can destroy the cannons w/o dying and just move into w/e opening you've left. Microed reapers should not die at all to cannons and will just come back later with full life after the medivacs come in.
TvT: Marauder as fast as possible. The slow will make it so the reapers would have to suicide to actually do anything (which is in your advantage). Also don't bother walling off, it spreads out your base too much making supply depots easy targets and it doesn't prevent the reapers from getting in on the current maps. Then just tech up and you should be at the advantage.
ZvT: Keep your queen near your mineral line, but ready to move out if the reapers are attacking any buildings like your roach warren. A spine crawler or two definitely helps too. Do not bother chasing with lings as you're just going to throw them away and its better to save them until you get speed.
Thanks going to work a build around this. I'm going to try double gate, fast gas stalker build with fast blink upgrade.
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On February 22 2010 14:13 G4MR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 16:09 TorcH wrote:
(I am doing a reaper opening every game at the moment and here's what I prevents me from the insta-win early game)
PvT:
Just get stalkers (skip the zealot) and make sure everything you have is powered by more than one pylon (a T can kill a pylon before the first stalker warps in if they feel like sacrificing a reaper). Keep the stalkers at any likely cliff jumping points (AKA mineral line) and just play a tight defense. Then tech up to w/e or do a timing attack, it's pretty much an even game from there on if you can prevent the reapers from doing any damage (which it is possible).
Edit: responding to previous posts: cannons alone are very weak vs reapers. 3-4 reapers can destroy the cannons w/o dying and just move into w/e opening you've left. Microed reapers should not die at all to cannons and will just come back later with full life after the medivacs come in.
TvT: Marauder as fast as possible. The slow will make it so the reapers would have to suicide to actually do anything (which is in your advantage). Also don't bother walling off, it spreads out your base too much making supply depots easy targets and it doesn't prevent the reapers from getting in on the current maps. Then just tech up and you should be at the advantage.
ZvT: Keep your queen near your mineral line, but ready to move out if the reapers are attacking any buildings like your roach warren. A spine crawler or two definitely helps too. Do not bother chasing with lings as you're just going to throw them away and its better to save them until you get speed. Thanks going to work a build around this. I'm going to try double gate, fast gas stalker build with fast blink upgrade.
Torch is not quite accurate. If you do a proper 1 gate cyber your pylon will not die before that stalker is out. Also you really don't need to 2 gate stalkers with blink (which is not very useful early on). I strongly suggest at least getting a robo over the twilight unless you're planning on moving into DTs.
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So far i think reapers aren't that op atm. Each race can counter them pretty well. Imo banshees and vikings are more op cause it is hard to scout a good banshee rush. Just my 2 cents.
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I am playing Terran and atm i win whenever a terran goes Reapers v me. Get 2 maurauders and 1-2 rines and reapers will stop coming near your workers. mauraders rape reapers. Especially because their attacks slow and most of the time when they see maurauders they attempt to escape, at this point hit as many as possible so they die while trying to flee. Only time I have lost to a Terran who used Reapers i was outplayed by a better player who managed to get Banshees out while i was killing his SCV line and killed my marine/maurauders. He was 2 divisions above me tho...IDK why i was playing some1 two div's above me.
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From what I've seen (In TvZ) it seems speedlings are very effective vs reapers. Whenever I attack with 4 reapers, I can usually do a good harass and at least take down a spawning pool, but whenever they have speedlings, I fail to do anything effective. The best I can do is pop a few drones (one or two?) before I need to retreat. And if they have a queen by the time you get there, 4 reapers usually don't get to do anything.
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My original build was:
Pylon 8/10
Gate
Pylon
Gas
Pylon
Cyber
Gas
Robo
Gate
Twilight
Robo Bay
Didn't really do a full time build just scouted early right after that first pylon and did a 2 probe build after each building (To save money for the buildings)
Now I've won against people who never done a reaper rush. With colossus + stalker combo with a few immortals. (Got Immortals first)
Now my new build to tweak it for a fast stalker build is:
Pylon 8/10
Gas (As soon as I get 75 after 2 probes)
Gate
Cyber
Pylon
Gas
Robo
Gate
Twilight
Robo Bay (Colossus upgrades)
With this tweaked do you think I'd have a good chance against early reapers? I'd edit it where fit after doing scout (if they go early gas).
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I tend to think that reapers need to have damage to buildings reduced a bit. You can bring about 8 reapers into a base and kill a nexus in just a couple volleys. It essentially makes it so you can never leave your base with your army even into lategame or you will lose your nexus/all your buildings instantly.
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As protoss, I never had trouble dealing with reapers. typically they send them when i already have a stalker or about to produce one. then just micro around with probes and range to scare them off until you can get another stalker out. then just keep your stalkers around your base cause he'll try and attack from different directions. eventually you'll have enough stalkers to keep him out. not that bad.
edit: i do not think they are that OP, but a slight nerf to their demolition attack seems appropriate.
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On February 23 2010 03:24 -orb- wrote:
I tend to think that reapers need to have damage to buildings reduced a bit. You can bring about 8 reapers into a base and kill a nexus in just a couple volleys. It essentially makes it so you can never leave your base with your army even into lategame or you will lose your nexus/all your buildings instantly.
I'm torn on that subject. If reaper's damage vs buildings was nerfed too much, they would become obsolete very quickly, probably by mid-game.
An easier fix in my opinion would simply be to make their D8 charges require a research. Early game they can still be effective harassers and slaughter workers, but will not be able to 1shot cannons or sunkens. This way you can defend against reaper harasses much in the way you defend against vulture harass.
Then later in the game, with those bombs researched, they can perform the role of base raiders, hopping in and killing key structures. Right now they are simply too good of harassers right from the get-go.
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I feel the 40 damage to buildings is the worst part of them(Too High). If the terran can build up 8 or so reapers they can b line for your base and sac them for a building basically of their choosing 
They always seemed like a mineral line harassing unit not a 6 minute game winner.
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
On February 24 2010 01:38 iSiN wrote:I feel the 40 damage to buildings is the worst part of them(Too High). If the terran can build up 8 or so reapers they can b line for your base and sac them for a building basically of their choosing They always seemed like a mineral line harassing unit not a 6 minute game winner.
Yeah. But 8 reapers for 1 building is a loss for the Terran right?
Reapers die so quickly. I don't understand why people are having trouble defending against them. Couldn't if you knew it was coming. Couldn't you just keep a few units back to intercept them before they can get close to your buildings?
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Any game that I've seen people go reapers required them to leave their base completely undefended. And stalkers most certainly do not "get raped" by reapers^^;. Against units reapers are just marines (putting aside the fact that they can run away faster).
Also they're not really effective as "worker killers". Again, 8 reapers leave you with nothing at your base, and terrans cannot hold the toss back if he decides to go for a counter. If you take away the threat of losing your base faster than the terran (because reapers kill buildings) you make the reaper 100% obsolete. Not saying it's not OP, just saying they aren't effective for a worker harrass.. 3 stalkers in a mineral line and those 8 reapers are toast.
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On February 24 2010 01:42 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2010 01:38 iSiN wrote:I feel the 40 damage to buildings is the worst part of them(Too High). If the terran can build up 8 or so reapers they can b line for your base and sac them for a building basically of their choosing They always seemed like a mineral line harassing unit not a 6 minute game winner. Yeah. But 8 reapers for 1 building is a loss for the Terran right?
Not if its your Nexus.
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United States12240 Posts
On February 24 2010 04:26 Feefee wrote:
Any game that I've seen people go reapers required them to leave their base completely undefended. And stalkers most certainly do not "get raped" by reapers^^;. Against units reapers are just marines (putting aside the fact that they can run away faster).
Also they're not really effective as "worker killers". Again, 8 reapers leave you with nothing at your base, and terrans cannot hold the toss back if he decides to go for a counter. If you take away the threat of losing your base faster than the terran (because reapers kill buildings) you make the reaper 100% obsolete. Not saying it's not OP, just saying they aren't effective for a worker harrass.. 3 stalkers in a mineral line and those 8 reapers are toast.
Typically when I go for Reapers I'll only build 3 and bring them in. 3 Reapers kills a Probe in a single volley (like 2 vults in BW) and the principle is the same: run to avoid enemy units and focus fire Probes while you do. I find it odd that you say they aren't effective for worker harassment... that's pretty much their designed role, just as it was for Vultures, and nobody would ever say those were bad for worker raids.
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On February 24 2010 01:16 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 03:24 -orb- wrote:
I tend to think that reapers need to have damage to buildings reduced a bit. You can bring about 8 reapers into a base and kill a nexus in just a couple volleys. It essentially makes it so you can never leave your base with your army even into lategame or you will lose your nexus/all your buildings instantly. I'm torn on that subject. If reaper's damage vs buildings was nerfed too much, they would become obsolete very quickly, probably by mid-game. An easier fix in my opinion would simply be to make their D8 charges require a research. Early game they can still be effective harassers and slaughter workers, but will not be able to 1shot cannons or sunkens. This way you can defend against reaper harasses much in the way you defend against vulture harass. Then later in the game, with those bombs researched, they can perform the role of base raiders, hopping in and killing key structures. Right now they are simply too good of harassers right from the get-go.
I like and agree with this. A research requirement means if you're aiming to do massive structural damage you must invest and time it properly, keeps it a bit delayed from the early game while not rendering them useless from late. If you research and the raid is an utter failure it puts Terran way behind given what they must invest. However given how gas acquisition in SC2 is, I'm wondering how viable it is to start say a 150/150 upgrade and still build 50/50 reapers off 1 base. At that point, it pushes it toward being almost all-inish. Maybe upgrade could be 100/100, but that seems like too much of a bargain...Still more fair than the low low current price of $free.99.
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If the reaper speed upgrade included their current building damage as an upgrade or was a new upgrade entirely, I think alot less people would complain. Most terran builds are going for some Marauders anyway so they would have a Tech lab barracks. build 3-4 reapers and don't look back, as long as you keep those units alive the threat that you will jump down and destroy a probe line is always there. On top of that you can scan his base to see if he is defending the probes.
If the 40 dmg vs buildings was with the speed upgrade or even a different upgrade at least you would know the Terran players intentions to continue using reapers at other stages of the game. You wouldn't make the investment into reaper tech unless you had a plan to keep using them
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On February 25 2010 01:30 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Typically when I go for Reapers I'll only build 3 and bring them in. 3 Reapers kills a Probe in a single volley (like 2 vults in BW) and the principle is the same: run to avoid enemy units and focus fire Probes while you do. I find it odd that you say they aren't effective for worker harassment... that's pretty much their designed role, just as it was for Vultures, and nobody would ever say those were bad for worker raids.
Well maybe I just haven't seen it pulled off well enough yet. How many probes do you actually manage to kill against anyone competent? 3-4? Cause without an expansion, and with mineral gathering dying off drastically after the 16th probe I'd say 150minerals + 150gas + speed upgrade for reapers isn't really worth it for killing 3-4 probes. Especially when the only use for reapers becomes killing those initial probes. Late game you can easily cannon up, and if reapers were to do no damage to those cannons they'd become utterly useless. Your vulture analogy stands I admit, but vultures don't cost gas (and gas is even more sparse in SC2 than in SC1) and vultures have mines.
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On February 24 2010 01:16 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 03:24 -orb- wrote:
I tend to think that reapers need to have damage to buildings reduced a bit. You can bring about 8 reapers into a base and kill a nexus in just a couple volleys. It essentially makes it so you can never leave your base with your army even into lategame or you will lose your nexus/all your buildings instantly. I'm torn on that subject. If reaper's damage vs buildings was nerfed too much, they would become obsolete very quickly, probably by mid-game. An easier fix in my opinion would simply be to make their D8 charges require a research. Early game they can still be effective harassers and slaughter workers, but will not be able to 1shot cannons or sunkens. This way you can defend against reaper harasses much in the way you defend against vulture harass. Then later in the game, with those bombs researched, they can perform the role of base raiders, hopping in and killing key structures. Right now they are simply too good of harassers right from the get-go.
Or, make the weapons upgrade increase their damage vs buildings by a significant amount. That way, if you keep up with your upgrades, they can still be good into mid-game (and even into late-game)
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EPT
