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Hi, guys,
Just created a mod entitled Mech Viability Mod and available in the Americas region only with the purpose of redesigning the Tempest and Sentry units.
Firstly, the Tempest can now switch between the Anti-Air mode or Strafe mode (Anti-Ground mode). While in Anti-Air mode, the Tempest can only attack air units whereas in Strafe mode, the Tempest can only attack ground units and is immobile.
The purpose of redesigning it in such a way is to promote positional play for the Protoss race whereby how you position the Tempest in between modes plays a deciding factor.
The below Tempest in Anti-Air mode
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/vQaH5uk.jpg)
The below Tempest in Anti-Ground mode (Strafe mode)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/GOPuRzx.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/EikNPnO.jpg)
Secondly, the Sentry can now morph to a stationary siege unit that is the Vulcan by researching the Sentry Siege mode at the Twilight Council. The purpose of giving the Sentry a stationary siege morph ability is to promote positional play where I feel the Protoss race is lacking at the moment.
The below Sentries in Siege mode
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IvB1j1M.jpg)
The below Vulcans (Sentries in Siege mode) in action
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/SqFvRxt.jpg)
Other Changes:-
Nydus maximum cargo space limited to 24. This will limit the number of Zerg units that can instantly move from one point to the other via the Nydus Network. Added a Tunneling Network upgrade at the Nydus Network to increase Nydus cargo space to 48.
The Infestor's Fungal Growth ability now slows targeted units by 50%. An Evolve Improved Fungal upgrade at the Infestation Pit is required to slow targeted units by 75% and deals 30 damage over 3 seconds.
Battlecruiser's Tactical Jump now has to be researched at the Fusion Core. Initial starting Battlecruisers with Tactical Jump is a bit too strong in my opinion.
Raven's Interference Matrix now has a lockdown upgrade at the Starport Techlab whereby it will disable/suppress the movement of the target unit. However, this upgrade requires Fusion Core and also due to its added function of suppressing movement, the energy cost of the Interference Matrix has been increased to 75 from a previous 50 vitals.
Siege Tanks now have a Research Shock Blast upgrade at the Factory Techlab which adds 30 shield damage to the Shock Cannon weapon.
The Tempest anti-ground attack has a further Quantum Core upgrade at the Fleet Beacon which adds +3 range to the ground attack.
For the Warp Prism, it's Phasing Mode now requires the Gravitic Drive research at the Robotics Bay.
Lastly, the Carrier's Graviton Catapult upgrade has been added to the Fleet Beacon.
Feel free to discuss. Thanks.
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First: this is no [discussion], I suppose.
Second: I don’t have time to test the mod now, are there any additional stats changes regarding Tempest Attack Speed/ Damage or is it just the introduction of the Siege Mode for ground attack?
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Sounds like you turned the tempest into basically a liberator to me.
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On June 15 2019 00:26 watchlulu wrote:
Second: I don’t have time to test the mod now, are there any additional stats changes regarding Tempest Attack Speed/ Damage or is it just the introduction of the Siege Mode for ground attack?
Yes. There are changes in regard to the Tempest Ground Attack Damage which has been increased to 60 from 40 due to the fact that the Tempest is immobile while at Anti-ground mode. Attack speed remains the same. Also, the supply cost has been reduced to 4 from 5.
Feel free to test my mod if you have the time and thanks for your feedback.
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On June 15 2019 04:50 Avexyli wrote:
Sounds like you turned the tempest into basically a liberator to me.
It might be necessary considering Protoss has more a-move units than the other races. Just my point of view though.
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battlecruisers are already considered unbeatable in late late TvP if the game gets there, and carriers are considered stronger against mech. tempest is more commonly used to break bio into ranged liberator/ghost rather than against mech. not sure what a tempest redesign has to do with mech viability. also, top terrans have shown that mech is viable.
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On June 16 2019 15:15 brickrd wrote:
battlecruisers are already considered unbeatable in late late TvP if the game gets there, and carriers are considered stronger against mech. tempest is more commonly used to break bio into ranged liberator/ghost rather than against mech. not sure what a tempest redesign has to do with mech viability. also, top terrans have shown that mech is viable.
What I meant is the design of the units which promotes or rewards positional play, for example, Terran has units such as Widow mines, Siege tanks and Liberators that rewards positional play or static defenses. Zerg has Lurkers and Corrosive Bile for Ravagers that revolves around positioning of units. Protoss, on the other hand, has Disruptors that rewards positioning of the purification nova. And by static defenses (in terms of units), or units that are immobile while attacking or using its abilities and by that, only widow mines, siege tanks sieged, Liberators-AG and lurkers fall into that category.
In short, what I'am trying to say is that each race should be designed around rewarding positional play of units in some degree or respect, or in other words, for example, Terrans are being punished if they siege up their tanks at the wrong moments or position, Zergs are being punished if Lurkers burrowed at the wrong moments or at wrong positions, things like that.
By the way, I just used the name Mech Viability for my mod and I hadn't change it (based on a previous mod) but really, I'am not talking about mech but rather the design of units in general which rewards good positioning of static units.
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On June 17 2019 12:10 WilliamBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2019 15:15 brickrd wrote:
battlecruisers are already considered unbeatable in late late TvP if the game gets there, and carriers are considered stronger against mech. tempest is more commonly used to break bio into ranged liberator/ghost rather than against mech. not sure what a tempest redesign has to do with mech viability. also, top terrans have shown that mech is viable. What I meant is the design of the units which promotes or rewards positional play, for example, Terran has units such as Widow mines, Siege tanks and Liberators that rewards positional play or static defenses. Zerg has Lurkers and Corrosive Bile for Ravagers that revolves around positioning of units. Protoss, on the other hand, has Disruptors that rewards positioning of the purification nova. And by static defenses (in terms of units), or units that are immobile while attacking or using its abilities and by that, only widow mines, siege tanks sieged, Liberators-AG and lurkers fall into that category. In short, what I'am trying to say is that each race should be designed around rewarding positional play of units in some degree or respect, or in other words, for example, Terrans are being punished if they siege up their tanks at the wrong moments or position, Zergs are being punished if Lurkers burrowed at the wrong moments or at wrong positions, things like that. By the way, I just used the name Mech Viability for my mod and I hadn't change it (based on a previous mod) but really, I'am not talking about mech but rather the design of units in general which rewards good positioning of static units.
There is nothing rewarding about using your version of the tempest. Your version of the Tempest virtually unusable.
You realize that the siege tank, defender mode liberator, and lurker have high damage output to make up for the siege features right? Your expensive siege unit capital ship cannot even 2HKO a roach.
A Tempest this nerfed makes late game PvT unwinnable.
If you want to make the protoss similar to the other races while keeping the game balanced, you need to buff certain features to compensate for nerfs.
Just my thoughts on the matter
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On June 18 2019 12:19 BerserkSword wrote:
There is nothing rewarding about using your version of the tempest. Your version of the Tempest virtually unusable.
You realize that the siege tank, defender mode liberator, and lurker have high damage output to make up for the siege features right? Your expensive siege unit capital ship cannot even 2HKO a roach.
A Tempest this nerfed makes late game PvT unwinnable.
If you want to make the protoss similar to the other races while keeping the game balanced, you need to buff certain features to compensate for nerfs.
Just my thoughts on the matter
Alright, thanks for your feedback. Just buffed the Tempest's ground attack damage to 100 from 60 while maintaining the attack speed. I think this will do, considering it will 1 shot a hydra and with air weapons level 2 researched will 1 shot a cyclone. Once again, thanks.
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On June 15 2019 14:04 WilliamBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2019 04:50 Avexyli wrote:
Sounds like you turned the tempest into basically a liberator to me. It might be necessary considering Protoss has more a-move units than the other races. Just my point of view though.
Yeah that's wrong and also a terrible take.
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Yeah, kinda agree with ^^^ what's making protoss good right now is actually the abusively micro-able character of some of their units
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On June 19 2019 05:46 Proko wrote:
Yeah, kinda agree with ^^^ what's making protoss good right now is actually the abusively micro-able character of some of their units
What makes Protoss abusive in my opinion are its warp mechanics (warp-ins, recall etc.) and at the moment, there are complaints that warp-prism warp-ins are too abusive against zergs.
And micro aside, there is a third aspect of the game which is positioning. It is just like describing proxy stargate, robo or proxy rax where it is how you position the said structures to keep your opponent guessing. More often, positioning of units and/or structures is often overlooked apart from game macro and unit micro.
That said, it is only fair in my opinion that each race has static units which is influenced by positional play, and what more with Protoss having warp mechanics (recall).
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On June 18 2019 15:47 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2019 14:04 WilliamBlue wrote:On June 15 2019 04:50 Avexyli wrote:
Sounds like you turned the tempest into basically a liberator to me. It might be necessary considering Protoss has more a-move units than the other races. Just my point of view though. Yeah that's wrong and also a terrible take.
Well, just a rant.
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Northern Ireland26184 Posts
I like the idea of looking at the Tempest as I’ve basically never liked it as a unit, but you’d have to change multiple units around to really have it fit into balance.
Aside from balance I just don’t like air units having that much range, siege tanks I like because they’re limited both by sieging and unsieging, but also by the terrain itself
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I feel like this is doing the exact opposite of what I expected; protoss is actually pretty weak in the ultra late game right now, vs both late game ZvP (mass infestor spore + assorted support units) and vs BCs. Your change seems to hinge on "tempest anti-ground is too strong" while they hardly win games in that role
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People need to stop to pretend that "positional play" is the same like "immobile units". You can very much do positional play with mobile units.
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On June 20 2019 17:30 ilovegroov wrote:
People need to stop to pretend that "positional play" is the same like "immobile units". You can very much do positional play with mobile units.
With the exception that mobile units can move while firing and immobile units can't.
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[Update]
The Tempest ground attack now do splash damage to ground units. In addition, Sentries have an optional stationary siege morph ability as in the above.
Other updates include limiting the Nydus cargo space to 24 and BC's Tactical Jump now requires research. Feel free to discuss. Thanks.
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First of all, very honorable that you are trying to contribute to ballancing and unitdesign.
I don’t find anything telling me what the sentry does... am I blind? it sieges ... an then? in the campain there are some different sentry typs like inductor, which buffs attackspeed of near allys, or is it just attacking (trickaling) faster and further?
Do you think protoss needs more anti ground splash? i dont think so. I agree on the point of motivating positional play, but that can also be achieved by making them slower, like the old tempests or broodlords.
I think the protoss army is lacking lategame spellcasters. in professional games i see only high templar with feedback and storm, rarely a mothership useing timewarp or a sentry with guardian shield in the lategame. In comparrison to terrans who have Gosts with snipe and emp (and cloak & nuke if you count those) aswell as Ravens with interference matrix, AA-Missile and autoturrets, protoss has less spells. especially zergs have many lategame spells to their disposal, Vipers, infestos with 3 spells each (and queens with transfuse).
I know that there are Abilities aswell, like the Disruprors nova and prismatic alignment, but terran (and zerg) has other units that have active abilities too (BC, Bio units’s stim, siegeing of tanks an libs, Corrosive bile,... )
that said i recommended thinking about maybe a further (researcable) spell for the sentry and an ability for the tempest that maybe helps dealing with BC’s cause that seems to be the biggest threat to a protoss lategame army.
By the way Blizzard had the idea of giving the tempest a spell in the past (testmod) but it didn’t made it through the testingphase.
and when you are ballancing and redesigning BC aswell, I would maybe completely remove tactical jump or give it a longer cooldown, cause most of the BC’s power comes just from this ability. the raw stats like damage health could then be bufft, so that it feels like a strong battleship intead of a guerillia plane that just comes to makes one big yamato shot and then have to retreat.
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[Update]
Raven's Interference Matrix now has a lockdown upgrade as described in my first post above. This, in my opinion, will make Raven-Mech a reliable strategy in addition to the Ghost's EMP buff that can boost bio or Ghost-Mech play. This will give Terrans the needed variety against Protoss especially mech play and it will also boost their late game advantage. And in fairness, the energy cost for Interference Matrix is now 75 vitals from the previous 50 vitals.
In addition, the Tempest's anti-ground attack now has a Quantum Core upgrade at the Fleet Beacon which adds +3 range to the attack. Previously, the Tempest's anti-ground attack without a small splash damage and a further +3 range felt weak. This is due to the Tempest having to switch in between modes and I hope that with the splash and range buff, this will address the issue.
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On July 06 2019 08:42 Skypirinha1 wrote:
I don’t find anything telling me what the sentry does... am I blind? it sieges ... an then? in the campain there are some different sentry typs like inductor, which buffs attackspeed of near allys, or is it just attacking (trickaling) faster and further?
Do you think protoss needs more anti ground splash? i dont think so. I agree on the point of motivating positional play, but that can also be achieved by making them slower, like the old tempests or broodlords.
Ok, once the Sentry sieges, it will then fires purification at a ground or air target. The stats are as follows :-
Vulcan Purification
Range : 12
Target : Ground or Air
Damage : 15
Weapon Period : 1.5 seconds (1.07 seconds in faster).
Also, it is not that Protoss needed more anti-ground splash but it all depends on the design of the unit or specifically, what it does. Here, the Tempest has to switch in between AA (Anti-Air) mode and AG (Anti-Ground) mode and furthermore, its AG mode is immobile. And for a immobile capital ship with only a single damage target makes the said Tempest quite weak as also mentioned by some of the players in the above. Therefore, to compensate for the immobility, a small 0.6 radius splash damage is given to the anti-ground attack. Also, note that I mentioned a small 0.6 radius splash. It is not like Psi Storm which has a 1.5 radius splash or even the Purification Nova of the Disruptors.
I can't say much about the old Tempests as this version of the Tempest is way different than the old Tempests. But the concept here remains, in that if you nerf a said unit, you will need to compensate it or any other unit with a buff.
Thanks.
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Added a Tunneling Network upgrade at the Nydus Network to increase Nydus cargo space to 48.
The Infestor's Fungal Growth ability now slows targeted units by 50%. An Evolve Improved Fungal upgrade at the Infestation Pit is required to slow targeted units by 75% and deals 30 damage over 3 seconds. This upgrade requires a hive to be completed and I feel that it will address the mass infestors' issue to a certain degree.
Siege Tanks now have a Research Shock Blast upgrade at the Factory Techlab which adds 20 shield damage to the Shock Cannon weapon. The upgrade requires an Armory to be completed. To illustrate, say the Siege Tank Shock Cannon mode weapon hit a zealot with 50 shields and 100 life, the Shock Cannon normal damage is 40, then add 20 shield damage becomes 60 total damage. Therefore, the zealot looses all its 50 shields and an additional 10 life which means 90 life remaining for the zealot after receiving one hit. Suppose the zealot does not have any shields left, it will only receive the normal 40 damage from the Shock Cannon for 1 hit. This I feel will help address the TvP mech issue coupled with the ghost's EMP radius buff as well as the Lockdown upgrade for the Raven's Interference Matrix which I had proposed earlier. There is now no excuse for mech to be not viable in TvP considering all the upgrades which had been given.
For the Warp Prism, it's Phasing Mode now requires the Gravitic Drive research at the Robotics Bay. This will address Protoss's various openings especially 2 base all-in with Warp Prism against Zergs.
Lastly, the Carrier's Graviton Catapult upgrade has been added to the Fleet Beacon. This is to give Protosses a further option against Terran mech considering the upgrades that mech have been receiving.
Waiting for further feedback from the community.
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