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[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Prev 1 2 3 Next All
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
June 25 2015 19:43 GMT
#21
Looks really good, thanks for all the effort!
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Tenks
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3104 Posts
June 25 2015 20:02 GMT
#22
This is pretty cool. What also interests me is if they adopt the idea of "hot" patches they could add new macro mechanics as well. Like for 20 energy you can cool a patch or something to that nature.
Wat
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3300 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-25 20:10:11
June 25 2015 20:09 GMT
#23
I really hope Blizzard changes the current economy in LotV. This is better than DH.

Curious how this looks in-game. Can someone post a gif or a video?
T P Z sagi
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-25 20:12:36
June 25 2015 20:11 GMT
#24
On June 26 2015 05:09 purakushi wrote:
Curious how this looks in-game. Can someone post a gif or a video?

Nothing too spectacular. Hot minerals a little bit more purple. I didn't want to make it distracting.
However, the mod is available for everyone. Why don't you try it yourself?
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
Corgi
Profile Joined December 2014
United States408 Posts
June 26 2015 00:39 GMT
#25
You know what I would change? Entire mineral patch is changed so its one single unit/doodad. The size is adjustable. But the speed of mining and variance on travel distance is factored into the time to mine for harvesters.

What this means is that your harvester traveling to the furthest distance starts mining as soon as the minimum travel distance is factored so that travel distance no longer becomes a factor in mining, just mining time and minimum distance. The furthest distance should not be more than 2x the minimum.

Anyways, no more having to deal with mismatched nodes or any complexities in mining. Just straight up 16 harvesters for optimal. Any more and they bring back less minerals because of over-saturation. No more having to check each mineral node for total amounts, etc.

Honestly there is no reason why SC2 needs a complex economy structure around gathering it.
woopr
Profile Joined December 2012
United States112 Posts
June 26 2015 02:54 GMT
#26
--- Nuked ---
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
June 26 2015 04:26 GMT
#27
  • Changing mining duration alone does not solve the problem.
  • Bouncing is not consistent.
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
June 26 2015 05:40 GMT
#28
On June 26 2015 13:26 BlackLilium wrote:
  • Changing mining duration alone does not solve the problem.
  • Bouncing is not consistent.

Is this a problem in starbow?
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-26 06:10:07
June 26 2015 06:04 GMT
#29
On June 26 2015 14:40 Cascade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2015 13:26 BlackLilium wrote:
  • Changing mining duration alone does not solve the problem.
  • Bouncing is not consistent.

Is this a problem in starbow?

Yes. Inconsistent bouncing create variations in income based on random effects.
I should also add, Starbow has high harvesting time (5.58s) and return 8 minerals per trip, and has +15% early game income
With such high harvest time we could make HMH 8-6 without bouncing as well - no problem. But we want to avoid early game income boost and avoid high harvest time.

I think I found a solution to HMH which gives us another variable to play with. This should bring its basic income to 100% of Standard, while dropping to 75% at 16 workers. This however requires a little bit more involved Effects. I will update as soon as I have something!
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
June 26 2015 06:17 GMT
#30
On June 26 2015 15:04 BlackLilium wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2015 14:40 Cascade wrote:
On June 26 2015 13:26 BlackLilium wrote:
  • Changing mining duration alone does not solve the problem.
  • Bouncing is not consistent.

Is this a problem in starbow?

Yes. Inconsistent bouncing create variations in income based on random effects.
I should also add, Starbow has high harvesting time (5.58s) and return 8 minerals per trip, and has +15% early game income
With such high harvest time we could make HMH 8-6 without bouncing as well - no problem. But we want to avoid early game income boost and avoid high harvest time.

I think I found a solution to HMH which gives us another variable to play with. This should bring its basic income to 100% of Standard, while dropping to 75% at 16 workers. This however requires a little bit more involved Effects. I will update as soon as I have something!

But I mean, is it actually a problem in practice? Does it ever happen that a game is decided due to bouncing-luck? Or is it difficult or annoying to follow precise build orders due to bouncing-luck? Does it actually affect the player in a way that she notices?

I should mention that I have never played starbow.
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-26 07:11:53
June 26 2015 07:11 GMT
#31
I don't think a game can be ever decided by a bouncing-luck, but yes, inconsistent income can affect precise build orders.
This inconsistency can also be affected by the layout of minerals (beyond just travel time differences).
You can also notice that Starbow new worker efficiency "shakes" more in 9-15 range (that was a problem of DH as well)

I could probably make some measurements of inconsistency to back up my claim, but that will take time...

High wait time is also a problem in early game - your bank increases rarely but in high increments.
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
Rukis
Profile Joined April 2009
United States252 Posts
June 26 2015 09:26 GMT
#32
So who's up for another round of Harvester Mod tournaments?
Flash was the Genius, Nada was the true god.
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
June 26 2015 11:32 GMT
#33
The mod, as well as the first post, has been updated!

Many of you raised a concern that the nerf to basic income, together with the efficiency curve, may lead to a game that is too slow. While I am not 100% sold on this, I kept looking for a solution to match the basic income of the Standard. I found it and implemented it in the new HMH version of the mod.

Please have another look
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
woopr
Profile Joined December 2012
United States112 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-26 14:03:54
June 26 2015 14:03 GMT
#34
--- Nuked ---
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
June 26 2015 15:09 GMT
#35
There is no explicit "rng added". Worker bouncing either happens or not. If it happens, it is random by definition, because you cannot predict to which mineral patch the worker will bounce.

Starbow actually tries to increase the amount of worker bouncing. Double Harvest does not, but because it works as it is, it may happen a little bit more often than in Standard as well. This particular aspect was never measured, and I am not sure how it could be done effectively. No one wants to stare at the monitor for an hour, counting how many workers have bounced
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
June 26 2015 15:45 GMT
#36
Would you be willing to share your method for bringing the the income level back up while keeping a 75% ratio?

It is an rng that the status may give 3 or 4 minerals when hot?
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-26 15:54:30
June 26 2015 15:54 GMT
#37
On June 27 2015 00:45 RFDaemoniac wrote:
Would you be willing to share your method for bringing the the income level back up while keeping a 75% ratio?

It is an rng that the status may give 3 or 4 minerals when hot?

It's all written in the first post (which was updated). It's achieved by altering the harvesting time of hot minerals only. There is no rng involved.
The mod itself is also available to everyone in every region - you can inspect it
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
June 27 2015 08:31 GMT
#38
I tried out the newest version just now and I've come to a sad realization.

Firstly, I think the current build is extremely close to ideal. The 75% efficiency combined with 5 mineral nodes seems like the 2 golden numbers that make everything in sc2 flow just right. The issue however is that the 5 mineral/75% map would absolutely require an overhaul of the macro or macro mechanics in sc2. It took only one test game to see that and it made me sad because that will never happen. Blizzard won't overhaul both the economy and the macro system. I think we've pretty much found the solution that makes everything tick but that solutions can never be actually implemented. That really bums me out.
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
June 28 2015 20:06 GMT
#39
On June 27 2015 17:31 knyttym wrote:
Firstly, I think the current build is extremely close to ideal. The 75% efficiency combined with 5 mineral nodes seems like the 2 golden numbers that make everything in sc2 flow just right. The issue however is that the 5 mineral/75% map would absolutely require an overhaul of the macro or macro mechanics in sc2. It took only one test game to see that and it made me sad because that will never happen. Blizzard won't overhaul both the economy and the macro system. I think we've pretty much found the solution that makes everything tick but that solutions can never be actually implemented. That really bums me out.

Let's put Blizzard out of the equation for the moment.
What macro and micro changes do you think HMH needs?
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
June 29 2015 04:05 GMT
#40
On June 29 2015 05:06 BlackLilium wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2015 17:31 knyttym wrote:
Firstly, I think the current build is extremely close to ideal. The 75% efficiency combined with 5 mineral nodes seems like the 2 golden numbers that make everything in sc2 flow just right. The issue however is that the 5 mineral/75% map would absolutely require an overhaul of the macro or macro mechanics in sc2. It took only one test game to see that and it made me sad because that will never happen. Blizzard won't overhaul both the economy and the macro system. I think we've pretty much found the solution that makes everything tick but that solutions can never be actually implemented. That really bums me out.

Let's put Blizzard out of the equation for the moment.
What macro and micro changes do you think HMH needs?


I have no idea what micro changes would be necessary.

As for macro, it is way too easy to use all your money off of three bases. I'm guessing Starbow already had this issue which is why they already have a solution in place for this exact issue. I would just copy their solution. They retooled macro mechanics and forced players to both look at their base more often and click buildings rapidly/accurately.
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