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On July 10 2014 14:49 EatThePath wrote:
Unfortunately, I feel it becomes necessary at times like these to ask everyone what race they play and what their ladder rank is.
Even the noobs have the right to have fun. If they don't like a map, they can say it,say why, say what they would change etc. Their opinion matters just as much as the opinion of a good player.
+ Show Spoiler + i'm diamond with random
p-please don't bully me ;_;
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On July 10 2014 23:10 SatedSC2 wrote:
As for the, "I worked hard on this" stuff, I've heard the same reasoning plenty of times from game developers, writers, artists etc. and it's not an impressive argument. Thinking that I should like or respect your maps just because you put a lot of effort into them is far more entitled than me giving a reason why I don't personally like a map and why I'm personally choosing to veto it. I mean, you're reacting as if one person vetoing one map because they're trying to maximise the fun they have whilst playing is somehow a condemnation of all mappers/maps/this map in a global sense. It's not.
You misunderstand. I'm not saying you have to like what I make, or what anyone else makes. I'm saying we put a lot of work into this, but we don't have to do it. And so far, we've earned damn little in the way of compensation or recognition for what we've done. If it turns out that people couldn't care less about community maps then we can always just stop, it's not like we'd be losing anything at this point. So for you to find a map untenable for a minor reason is - to put it mildly - insulting.
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On July 11 2014 02:37 algue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2014 14:49 EatThePath wrote:
Unfortunately, I feel it becomes necessary at times like these to ask everyone what race they play and what their ladder rank is. Even the noobs have the right to have fun. If they don't like a map, they can say it,say why, say what they would change etc. Their opinion matters just as much as the opinion of a good player. + Show Spoiler + i'm diamond with random
p-please don't bully me ;_;
+ Show Spoiler +l2p noob no re muahaha
dat random doe, color me impress ^^
No doubt a wide variety of opinions is always welcome. I just mean, when someone is being incredibly vocal and judgemental, the metric of ladder rank becomes actually useful in helping gauge how seriously to take their comments.
There is definitely something of a cultural divide though when it comes to how mapmakers think about map design and map pool selection which slants heavily towards having a robust competitive environment, at the expense of what less serious players sometimes favor.
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Untenable compared to 6 other maps, three of which I get to veto. People will only ever play on what they think are the 4 best maps. Maybe pro players will play on all of them (they might remove one they really hate if they're always vetoing it in tournaments), but most people are going to use all their vetoes.
From my personal experience I find that most people don't veto all 3, if any, although I guess it doesn't mean much, just as much as your broad statement that has no backing. I would assume non-pro players would not veto most of the time, since winning matters less for them (I assume that it is true mostly, although not in all cases), and thus having more varied games would be better.
In general I find the most fun from having specific strategies on maps. I've tried to find a way to play on old Daedalus up until it was standardized. I really don't see how such a small different can make the map so bad. I personally believe that open naturals are possible, with the right map features to compliment it, I wonder how disgusted you will be if you saw such a map, in which you have to use a completely different build than currently being used.
I wonder, did the strategy you think is OP on this map was done to you at all? Or do you just theorycraft about it without any solid evidence that it actually forces you to FFE and not GFE?
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On July 11 2014 05:24 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 03:04 NewSunshine wrote:On July 10 2014 23:10 SatedSC2 wrote:
As for the, "I worked hard on this" stuff, I've heard the same reasoning plenty of times from game developers, writers, artists etc. and it's not an impressive argument. Thinking that I should like or respect your maps just because you put a lot of effort into them is far more entitled than me giving a reason why I don't personally like a map and why I'm personally choosing to veto it. I mean, you're reacting as if one person vetoing one map because they're trying to maximise the fun they have whilst playing is somehow a condemnation of all mappers/maps/this map in a global sense. It's not. You misunderstand. I'm not saying you have to like what I make, or what anyone else makes. I'm saying we put a lot of work into this, but we don't have to do it. And so far, we've earned damn little in the way of compensation or recognition for what we've done. If it turns out that people couldn't care less about community maps then we can always just stop, it's not like we'd be losing anything at this point. So for you to find a map untenable for a minor reason is - to put it mildly - insulting. Untenable compared to 6 other maps, three of which I get to veto. People will only ever play on what they think are the 4 best maps. Maybe pro players will play on all of them (they might remove one they really hate if they're always vetoing it in tournaments), but most people are going to use all their vetoes.
Well, like you, I am very much not a pro player. I only use vetoes on certain maps if I happen to want to play other maps on a given day. You're still glossing over the reason you're vetoing it - that you might have to use a different build to succeed on the map. Hence my initial response of "Oh dear." Your arguments don't convince me.
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Foxtrot is one of my new favourite maps, i like it a lot vs all matchups (im terran - diamond).
There are a lot of tactics possible, just think out of the box, seek for the siege positions, drops etc. 
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woooooaaaa... I just got flashed spawning horizontally... :O
I didn't know this was possible and I don't think it should be, given that the bases are completely different.
Edit: Not a huge deal I guess (though I could see bottom right vs bottom left being pretty extreme for sentry/immortal), but something I do not really appreciate so far. It feels very weird when you have a completely different choke point than your opponent.
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This map seriously was made by someone who hates zerg seriously just look at this map the mid is like zerg can't win any fight vs terran or zerg even with Flying adv . Anyways i appreciate work done for the map but it is awful... What came to your mind when you created that mid on this map If you corected it smh this map could be great but what you did at here destroyed it all.
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On July 11 2014 21:43 Nephyr wrote:
This map seriously was made by someone who hates zerg seriously just look at this map the mid is like zerg can't win any fight vs terran or zerg even with Flying adv . Anyways i appreciate work done for the map but it is awful... What came to your mind when you created that mid on this map If you corected it smh this map could be great but what you did at here destroyed it all.
For this map? To make positional games stronger, that's why the center is the way it is instead of it being a big wide open area like maps such as waystation where armies do not have to account for the terrain and roam freely as deathballs, in foxtrot you have to account for the terrain. Sadly Zerg gets the short straw out of this because well it is Zerg, none the less the endless harass that can be done and all those pathways (specially in cross spawns) make up and allow for some nasty surrounds, have other maps that steal ideas out of Foxtrot, Xel'naga Ashes and Chaac Marshes and improve some other things that i feel i missed in Foxtrot.
Also i main Zerg U.u;
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He does not give any arguments to support his claim. Being a progamer does not mean your word is law.
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Beyond personal preferences or competitive axioms, there is the future of the game to consider
Does one want a map pool of "competitive only" nature
(with people who consider that "gameplay dictates map production" at the helm)
Does one want variety in the map pool
(with emphasis on an inter relationship between maps and gameplay .. an eternal experimental back and forth)
?
+ Show Spoiler +I would add "people just passing through" or "people honestly invested in sc2 blossoming considerations.. but 
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@subtlerevolution The point you're making is actually extremely important, because experimentation can be detrimental to a fair competitive environment while encouraging "standard" maps would surely limit mapmakers' creativity and probably make a lot of them quit. This is a complicated issue though I have to admit I'd prefer experimentation to be fairly limited as far as ladder and tournaments are concerned.
Why not make unranked ladder have a different map pool, with more "experimental" maps ? This way experimental maps could get some visibility and, if they turn out to be good and fair, would then get a chance to be used on ranked ladder and tournaments.
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On July 18 2014 18:10 SatedSC2 wrote:
even if it should be, thats up to blizzard now, not the author, welcome to blizzdomination of the ladder.
On July 19 2014 00:51 [PkF] Wire wrote:
@subtlerevolution The point you're making is actually extremely important, because experimentation can be detrimental to a fair competitive environment while encouraging "standard" maps would surely limit mapmakers' creativity and probably make a lot of them quit.
maDe, it allready happend
On July 19 2014 00:51 [PkF] Wire wrote:
This is a complicated issue though I have to admit I'd prefer experimentation to be fairly limited as far as ladder and tournaments are concerned.
Why not make unranked ladder have a different map pool, with more "experimental" maps ? This way experimental maps could get some visibility and, if they turn out to be good and fair, would then get a chance to be used on ranked ladder and tournaments.
because blizzard doesnt have the time for that.
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The map is really interesting and makes for good games. In the case of bottom left - top right spanws, I wonder which third would be the most suited for PvZ : the left one, the quickest and easiest to get but the closest to the Z, or the right one, which is a bit further from the Z but needs you to break rocks. I'm interested in your opinion on this matter guys, but I feel this kind of alternatives are what make this map good and not one-dimensional at all.
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EPT
