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Map Jam & Challenge #6

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 17:17:09
June 07 2013 18:47 GMT
#1
Map Jam & Challenge #6


From
Saturday, Jun 15 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
To
Sunday, Jun 16 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)


Currently ongoing!




Rules:

  • All participants send one topic to the admin via PM, e.g. 'rocks' and 'low main'.
  • Combine the two randomly selected topics (tba) in one map.
  • Post your map overview and relevant details in this thread and have your map uploaded to EU/NA within the next 24 hours.
  • Poll decides on winner with participants having one additional vote.


Winner is determined
Tuesday, Jun 18 4:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)

+ Show Spoiler [Submissions] +

(2) Conjoined by The_Templar
[image loading]


(2) Ridge Rift by Quakecomm
[image loading]


(2) Korhal Sky City by Ruinsteel
[image loading]

(2) Untitled by Fatam
[image loading]

(4) ESV Inverse World by NewSunshine
[image loading]

(2) Bracket Peaks by RFDaemoniac
[image loading]


Poll: Which map is best while using both of the topics well?

NewSunshine- ESV Inverse World (8)
 
38%

Ruinsteel- Korhal Sky City (6)
 
29%

Fatam- Untitled (4)
 
19%

The_Templar- Conjoined (3)
 
14%

Quakecomm- Ridge Rift (0)
 
0%

RFDaemoniac- Bracket Peaks (0)
 
0%

21 total votes

Your vote: Which map is best while using both of the topics well?

(Vote): The_Templar- Conjoined
(Vote): Quakecomm- Ridge Rift
(Vote): Ruinsteel- Korhal Sky City
(Vote): Fatam- Untitled
(Vote): NewSunshine- ESV Inverse World
(Vote): RFDaemoniac- Bracket Peaks






Previous Topics

                                                                              + Show Spoiler +

  • Map Jam #1
    • 2v2
    • Desert Oasis Style Mains

  • Map Jam #2
    • Extreme chokes and open spaces
    • Use of hostile units

  • Map Jam #3
    • 3 player
    • multiple Xel'Naga Towers

  • Map Jam #4
    • Area < 16900
    • Forward high ground

  • Map Jam #5
    • No ramps
    • Maximum playable width of 116






Topics:


1. Gold bases

2. Must contain at least 11 ramps per player




Process
Send your idea for an interesting topic to the event's administrator via a private message to The_Templar. Two topics are randomly selected using randomizer.org at the start of the event, and then immediately made official. This way, no "cheating" can occur, and the administrator can technically participate as well.

Make sure you read the How does it work? section as well and feel free to ask additional questions in this thread.



What is the Map Jam & Challenge?
The Map Jam & Challenge is a format by and for the community.
The Map Jam & Challenge is a regular map making competition.
The Map Jam & Challenge wants you to be creative and quick.
The Map Jam & Challenge provokes thinking outside the box.

This is a format developed collaboratively by Samro and Scorp, and was motivated by MotM, CSL Map Jam and the Map Making Challenge.

Why do this?
It is all about challenging your fellow map makers with some strange idea and together do a 24h map making jam that will produce innovative, fun and crazy maps. From this format ideas may emerge that can be implemented to competitive maps - or maybe not. There is nothing to win like beta keys, sorry for that. I have no give aways, no tshirts. Also I do not own this format. This is an idea that i hope can be run by the community itself, without judges, organization, etc.

I know many will appreciate this. Here it is all about making maps. These may or may not be played. This is not the biggest point. We are looking for new ideas in maps and for new ways to make maps.

How does it work?
  • Runs monthly.
  • 24 hours to allow all timezones a few hours. Is held in the weekend to allow the most people to participate.
  • All participants send one topic to the admin via PM, e.g. 'rocks' and 'low main'.
  • By a randomized process two topics are selected among all entries and made public to start the Map Jam & Challenge. This aspects helps to have no 'cheating' like preparing a map to give yourself more time.
  • Within the 24 hours participants post the overview in this thread and upload their map to EU/NA (ask your fellow map makers at EU/NA)
  • Public Vote decides on the winning map. Map makers who think they have the edge in evaluating how good a map is, can message the admin with their choice to have a double-vote.
  • Win = Fun & Fame


Map Jam & Challenge #6
The Map Jam & Challenge starts Saturday, Jun 15 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) and runs 24 hours. Topics need to be sent to The_Templar via PM until one hour before the challenge starts. This gives the admin one hour to randomly select the double-topic. Via PM we will keep all ideas secret and fresh for the next round maybe and the double-topic is quite a surprise for everyone.

Topics will be announced in this thread.

The previous events were administrated by Scorp, Samro, and RFDaemoniac. In future events, other community members may administrate as well. If you are interested in administration please notify the admin of the most recent map jam.

Poll: Do you want suggested topics to be revealed unless stated otherwise?

Yes (6)
 
86%

No (1)
 
14%

7 total votes

Your vote: Do you want suggested topics to be revealed unless stated otherwise?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No

Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
June 07 2013 20:49 GMT
#2
#5 seems like only yesterday. I have been busy I guess. ^^

Now I have to think of some topics...
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
June 07 2013 21:08 GMT
#3
If we didn't also have the Blizzard Remake thing going on I would have sent that in as a topic

I should have enough time to actually do some aesthetics, too!

Thanks for administrating, btw
Ruinsteel
Profile Joined April 2012
United States43 Posts
June 08 2013 01:16 GMT
#4
Another map jam! Can't wait to get no votes again . But, in all seriousness, I love when these are up. I may have taken a break from normal map making (I made like what? 1 somewhat acceptable map? ), but I always seem to do these if I have the time / the topics aren't too brutal (The 3-player map topic from #3 kicked my ass). Looking forward to this as always!
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
June 12 2013 20:56 GMT
#5
How do people feel about making all of the submitted topics from previous jams public? It might help to inspire people who are looking to make a more serious map. One potential downside is that it will lessen the surprise from topics that haven't been used yet if they come up in future competitions, but I don't think that this is really that big of an issue.
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
June 12 2013 20:56 GMT
#6
Please don't reveal mine, they all suck >.<
By the way, am I allowed to submit a topic to myself?
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
ScorpSCII
Profile Joined April 2012
Denmark499 Posts
June 12 2013 22:00 GMT
#7
On June 13 2013 05:56 The_Templar wrote:
Please don't reveal mine, they all suck >.<
By the way, am I allowed to submit a topic to myself?

yes
Mapmaker | Author of Atlas, Rao Mesa & Paralda
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
June 12 2013 22:17 GMT
#8
On June 13 2013 05:56 RFDaemoniac wrote:
How do people feel about making all of the submitted topics from previous jams public? It might help to inspire people who are looking to make a more serious map. One potential downside is that it will lessen the surprise from topics that haven't been used yet if they come up in future competitions, but I don't think that this is really that big of an issue.

It's a good idea, except I think you should check first in case someone wants to resubmit their topics if they weren't picked yet. But that's not realistic, so I guess if enough people say yes go ahead.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
June 14 2013 15:10 GMT
#9
Only 23 hours to submit topics if you haven't already!
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
June 14 2013 17:26 GMT
#10
The_Templar, when you randomly pick the topics, could you also put a poll in the OP that asks "Do you want suggested topics to be revealed unless stated otherwise?" With answers "Yes", "No", and "I don't care"

And then if you don't want it to be revealed if it's not picked just say so when you PM your topic in (and retroactively PM previous admins if you don't want your topics revealed). The topics probably wouldn't have the suggester's name next to it, as that's not really the important part, so no fear of people thinking you're not creative/etc in your topic suggestions
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 18:09:41
June 14 2013 18:02 GMT
#11
The_Templar, when you randomly pick the topics, could you also put a poll in the OP that asks "Do you want suggested topics to be revealed unless stated otherwise?" With answers "Yes", "No", and "I don't care"


I was already going to do that
..edit: did you know that it is possible to PM yourself?
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
June 15 2013 15:00 GMT
#12
Ok, I chose the topics randomly. They are:

-Gold bases
-Must contain at least 11 ramps per player

Updating the OP with them.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
June 15 2013 15:16 GMT
#13
does a double wide ramp count as 2 ramps? triple wide = 3? Or does that just count as 1 ramp?
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-15 15:45:28
June 15 2013 15:18 GMT
#14
It's one ramp regardless of the width.
Otherwise it would be too easy :p
Edit: The topic is a bit unfair to four player maps I guess :/
Of course, this is the last four player map we've had in the map jam.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-15 16:06:02
June 15 2013 16:05 GMT
#15
Here's what I've got so far.
(2) Conjoined
140x140

&#91;image loading&#93;

Features:
-28 ramps
-4 6HYM2G bases, 4 8M1HYG bases, 8 8M2G bases
-Rock towers above the middle gold expansions can be destroyed to cover the geysers. I'll have to test in order to see whether that would kill refineries/assimilators/extractors.

Still working on the middle and the potential 3rd base gold expansions.

PS: Please PM me if you submitted a topic and don't want it revealed.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-15 16:08:44
June 15 2013 16:07 GMT
#16
So does a 4spawn map need 44 ramps or 22

edit: oh I guess its 44
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-15 16:10:14
June 15 2013 16:09 GMT
#17
I guess it would be 44, but that really seems impossible.
It would probably need to be tal'darim altar sized.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
June 15 2013 16:45 GMT
#18
No problem, just include a few of these
[image loading]
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
June 15 2013 17:33 GMT
#19
loooooool wut. glhf everyone, i'm going 6 player
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Coppermantis
Profile Joined June 2012
United States845 Posts
June 15 2013 21:01 GMT
#20
Will be out today, so I can't participate Oh well, glhf everyone indeed.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
June 15 2013 21:35 GMT
#21
not a huge fan of the topics and i'm sorta busy today so i may or may not whip up something. GL all and looking forward to seeing craziness
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Quakecomm
Profile Joined April 2012
United States344 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 02:05:35
June 16 2013 01:45 GMT
#22
Ok this is the first time I've really made a map, so please don't judge too harshly.
I present to you (2) Ridge Rift
[image loading]

Published to NA & EU
:D
gorkey island is the only good map
Ruinsteel
Profile Joined April 2012
United States43 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 02:00:13
June 16 2013 01:57 GMT
#23
Here's my map submission! Decided to do minimal texturing / doodads as usual, but I like how the layout works. Not too sure how it would play out, but it would be interesting! Rocks block the ramp by the Xel'Naga towers, but a unit can still gain vision. This is there to prevent a straight line to the opponent's gold base right away.

Korhal Sky City [NA]
140x140 playable with 24 ramps
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


As a side note, I've noticed that when I tried to place City debris, It has either a placeholder model or none at all. Is this an issue with everyone or just me? I've also noticed a while ago that certain Protoss decals would not show up either. If anyone knows anything about this, please reply or PM me!
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2142 Posts
June 16 2013 03:24 GMT
#24
I didn't submit a topic since I've been sitting in airplanes for most of the past day and didn't notice this was starting, can I still participate?
vibeo gane,
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 03:26:03
June 16 2013 03:25 GMT
#25
On June 16 2013 12:24 -NegativeZero- wrote:
I didn't submit a topic since I've been sitting in airplanes for most of the past day and didn't notice this was starting, can I still participate?

You have about 11.5 hours.
You don't have to submit a topic to participate.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 03:27:25
June 16 2013 03:27 GMT
#26
Updated my map

+ Show Spoiler [new image] +
&#91;image loading&#93;


Now it has 30 ramps instead of 28.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2142 Posts
June 16 2013 05:29 GMT
#27
On June 16 2013 12:25 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2013 12:24 -NegativeZero- wrote:
I didn't submit a topic since I've been sitting in airplanes for most of the past day and didn't notice this was starting, can I still participate?

You have about 11.5 hours.
You don't have to submit a topic to participate.

k nevermind, i need to sleep lol
vibeo gane,
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
June 16 2013 07:06 GMT
#28
Sleep: Who needs it? I'm staying up to pull something together, though it's not likely to be that great
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 07:24:48
June 16 2013 07:22 GMT
#29
154x122 Untitled


[image loading]

I probably would change more stuff / add some light aesthetics but it's getting late. This map embraces CS and expo ambiguity. 2 ways to expand. The normal third was originally an entombed valley third but I changed it a bit.

oh and i should mention. the XNT kind of has an interesting dynamic.. if you're trying to be sneaky about taking the gold then you will want to deny the enemy from ever taking that XNT because it shows if you have that base or not. Also, it doubles as providing vision --> defense for those 2 bases.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 09:35:14
June 16 2013 09:15 GMT
#30
Name: ESV Inverse World
Size: 152x152

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [boring pictures] +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


The name Inverse World ran into problems, hence the ESV tag. And, if you're insane, it's published on all servers. Exactly 11 ramps in each quadrant, so it's legit. The edges of the map take after Outsider, like Koprulu, only this map features 2 gold bases at each of the vestiges. Also a gold island expansion marks the center of the map. The only places a pylon can be used to warp into the edges are between the two mineral lines, and the main ramp is like the one found on crevasse, only smaller. So yes, no part of this whatsoever is standard. So MLG will obviously have nothing to do with it.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 10:19:01
June 16 2013 10:10 GMT
#31
Oh that's seriously awesome, NewSunshine! I'd 100% be down to play like 5 games on this after I go to bed and wake up tomorrow (it's 6am here -_-). Those aesthetics are also pretty sexy. I'm really liking the lighter high ground against the grey and green midground.

Quakecomm, Congrats on your first map (It's miraculous compared to my first)! These Jams are definitely a good way to get some creative practice in.

Here is my submission. It's not published anywhere, as it could use some serious adjustments. Particularly the main/nat setup, though most of what you probably have issues with is intentional

Bracket Peaks
112x128
[image loading]

It doesn't show in the overview, but the areas behind the mineral lines of the main and nat have line of sight blockers in them, inspired by Semmo's Breeze. Main to Main distance is ~210, which is pretty long, even though the map is very small. I'm hoping to encourage extremely aggressive, scrappy, micro-intensive games. The gold bases are all 2/3's, with 4 nodes and 1 hyg. This hopefully allows you to pick that third in order to be very aggressive, and then if it doesn't work out yet you can take another forward gold base to keep up the aggression since you get such a quick return on your investment.

EDIT: There are 27 ramps per player :D

EDIT2: NewSunshine, for some reason I want you to only put two geysers between the two gold mineral lines on each side instead of four. Just thought I'd mention it. I'll come back tomorrow to try to support why.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 10:31:11
June 16 2013 10:28 GMT
#32
On June 16 2013 19:10 RFDaemoniac wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Oh that's seriously awesome, NewSunshine! I'd 100% be down to play like 5 games on this after I go to bed and wake up tomorrow (it's 6am here -_-). Those aesthetics are also pretty sexy. I'm really liking the lighter high ground against the grey and green midground.

Quakecomm, Congrats on your first map (It's miraculous compared to my first)! These Jams are definitely a good way to get some creative practice in.

Here is my submission. It's not published anywhere, as it could use some serious adjustments. Particularly the main/nat setup, though most of what you probably have issues with is intentional

Bracket Peaks
112x128
[image loading]

It doesn't show in the overview, but the areas behind the mineral lines of the main and nat have line of sight blockers in them, inspired by Semmo's Breeze. Main to Main distance is ~210, which is pretty long, even though the map is very small. I'm hoping to encourage extremely aggressive, scrappy, micro-intensive games. The gold bases are all 2/3's, with 4 nodes and 1 hyg. This hopefully allows you to pick that third in order to be very aggressive, and then if it doesn't work out yet you can take another forward gold base to keep up the aggression since you get such a quick return on your investment.

EDIT: There are 27 ramps per player :D

EDIT2: NewSunshine, for some reason I want you to only put two geysers between the two gold mineral lines on each side instead of four. Just thought I'd mention it. I'll come back tomorrow to try to support why.

Thanks

About the geysers, it's one of those things that just comes down to it being a jam map. A lot of this map was very quickly done, it was actually about 4 hours start to finish. So a lot of this map could use refinement - hell, if it were to be a serious map it could probably stand to be restructured entirely - but I had a cool concept and hashed it out pretty nicely I think, which is good enough for me. I may revisit the idea for this map though.

edit: though actually, there is some rationale behind the geyser setup. the reasoning is that since Terran tends to want the gold minerals, I'd throw P and Z a bone here by including the extra geysers as well. But as I said, this is just the first take on the idea, they could be rich geysers too, it's up in the air still.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 17:19:31
June 16 2013 17:13 GMT
#33
Submissions are closed.
The poll is up.
Please place an additional vote if you submitted a map by PMing The_Templar with the author and map name that you'd like to vote for.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
June 16 2013 17:39 GMT
#34
CRAP DANG IT!!! I fell asleep with out submitting mine!!!
SC2 Mapmaker
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 16 2013 18:19 GMT
#35
I figure voting for my own map is tacky, and besides that I do like Sky City quite a bit, I think there's a solid design there and a cool map can certainly come from it. I like how the ramps are used to punctuate sections of the map, and the interesting dynamic for 3+ bases. Good stuff.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Ruinsteel
Profile Joined April 2012
United States43 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 22:00:10
June 16 2013 21:59 GMT
#36
On June 17 2013 03:19 NewSunshine wrote:
I figure voting for my own map is tacky, and besides that I do like Sky City quite a bit, I think there's a solid design there and a cool map can certainly come from it. I like how the ramps are used to punctuate sections of the map, and the interesting dynamic for 3+ bases. Good stuff.


Thanks, was thinking about changing a couple things on it and making it a standard map. It's definitely one of my better maps if you ask me. Had fun making it, but will probably change the aesthetics to something I can work more doodads into without obstructing gameplay. Voted for your map and Conjoined .

Edit: I got more than 2 votes! It's a new record! Haha .
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
June 17 2013 01:11 GMT
#37
Lorestarcraft, you should totally still post yours. We might not be voting on it but that's only an incidental part of this.

I'm not that happy with my map. Looking at the overview it sort of just looks like some things were thrown down on it, even though that's not how it was constructed. I've been playing around with some of the ideas and I still think that the small high grounds with multiple ramps coming up to them make for a nice micro-able structure.

I'm a little torn between voting for NewSunshine, whose map I think is the most interesting, and Ruinsteel, whose use of ramps is more central to the map. Perhaps both?
eTcetRa
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia822 Posts
June 17 2013 13:36 GMT
#38
On June 16 2013 18:15 NewSunshine wrote:
Name: ESV Inverse World
Size: 152x152

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [boring pictures] +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


The name Inverse World ran into problems, hence the ESV tag. And, if you're insane, it's published on all servers. Exactly 11 ramps in each quadrant, so it's legit. The edges of the map take after Outsider, like Koprulu, only this map features 2 gold bases at each of the vestiges. Also a gold island expansion marks the center of the map. The only places a pylon can be used to warp into the edges are between the two mineral lines, and the main ramp is like the one found on crevasse, only smaller. So yes, no part of this whatsoever is standard. So MLG will obviously have nothing to do with it.


That is really sick man. Would play. Having two wall bases is a lot better than one, imo.
Retired Mapmaker™
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
June 17 2013 18:34 GMT
#39
What do you do to stop/discourage double cc before rax or double nexus before gateway on this map?
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-18 16:11:47
June 18 2013 16:07 GMT
#40
I guess ESV Inverse World wins.

Topics submitted:
+ Show Spoiler +
    1. Use of bridges

    2. Every time you expand to a non-island base you increase the number of chokes that you have to defend by at least one.

    3. Ambiguous expansion patterns

    4. Wide chokes

    5. 6 xel'naga towers

    6. Gold bases

    7. Use of nonstandard resources, e.g. mixed gold and regular mineral patches

    8. 2 maps in 1

    9. Inspired by a WC3 map

    10. Remake of a Blizzard Brood War map

    11. At least 11 ramps per player


Please let me know by PM if you want your topic removed from this list.
Also PM me if you want to administer the next map jam; otherwise, I'll do the next one if possible.
By the way, I'm very glad we didn't have to do #9 and #10. That would have been awful.
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