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On May 23 2013 02:51 chuky500 wrote:
5 finalists out of 9 have siegable naturals, I bet they must love Steppes of War and Lost temple. Call that superior mapping skills if you want I call that a disgrace. After 3 years of mocking Blizzard and trolling other community mappers (I personally got a Rick Astley award) that's what they've came up with ? After the multiple circle jerks about "VARS" (only left-right symmetry was balanced), the 4player-rotational-symmetry, big-main-tiny-natural-touching-3rd, circle syndrome, 6-minerals-bases, daybreak clones, now siegable naturals and backdoors to the main is the new thing ? I really doubt you will "shake up the metagame" by going back to 3 year old gimmicks. I've organized a handful of tournaments with community maps and top players and in my opinion the good mappers have left the community a long time ago. This is not superior skills and they weren't even the best maps out there.
Wut.
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On May 23 2013 01:44 LainRivers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 01:28 FlyingBeer wrote:On May 23 2013 00:29 IronManSC wrote:On May 22 2013 17:57 -NegativeZero- wrote:On May 22 2013 16:02 wrl wrote:
Yeonsu, Insidious, and Electric Circuit are 3 of my favorites, but can someone link me to an explanation as to why Ravage is good? I think it is totally out of its league compared to the other finalists. A lot of people seem to like it, but I haven't heard a compelling argument as to why it should even be considered. Sure it is all around solid, but so were 50 other maps submitted. Insidious has many of the same concepts yet seems to do all of them better. Someone help me out here??? Probably just because it's an ESV map and it's made by IronMan. Personally I thought Ohana was highly overrated as well - both Ohana and Ravage have very linear expansion patterns, and close 3rds make it easy to turtle (especially in the case of Ohana). Jß With that logic, that means in TLMC3, lefix, timetwister and meerel will get chosen again unanimously, right? I believe everyone who was selected in TLMC 1 who submitted to TLMC 2 also got selected again. Grebliv didn't submit, right? It's not a stretch to believe that's what's going to happen. People with the superior mapping skills are picked often? Blasphemy. There were plenty of solid maps from other more reputable mappers that also didn't get picked, that's life.
You shouldn't assume someone's opinion when they simply state a fact. I never stated agreement with anything NegativeZero wrote.
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On May 23 2013 02:51 chuky500 wrote:
5 finalists out of 9 have siegable naturals, I bet they must love Steppes of War and Lost temple. Call that superior mapping skills if you want I call that a disgrace. After 3 years of mocking Blizzard and trolling other community mappers (I personally got a Rick Astley award) that's what they've came up with ? After the multiple circle jerks about "VARS" (only left-right symmetry was balanced), the solid vs creative, the 4player-rotational-symmetry, big-main-tiny-natural-touching-3rd, circle syndrome, 6-minerals-bases, daybreak clones, now siegable naturals and backdoors to the main is the new thing ? I really doubt you will "shake up the metagame" by going back to 3 year old gimmicks. I've organized a handful of tournaments with community maps and top players and in my opinion the good mappers have left the community a long time ago. This is not superior skills and they were neither the most balanced nor creative maps out there.
hmm by my count only 3 of them have mineral lines that are at all siegable from outside of the nat.. and one of those you can just barely hit 1 geyser, (and another one your siege tank(s) would be in such a vulnerable position that doing it probably wouldn't be worth it). Would need to measure/test to be 100% sure, of course, but I have a pretty decent eye for it. Not sure which others you think are siegable.
Regardless, something being siegable isn't the end of the world. You have to consider the context of it. And just because a map has 1 feature you don't like doesn't mean the entire map is bad. I think if you're going to take aim at something, I would take aim at the 2 maps that seemingly have large positional imbalances, or that the contest wasn't terribly clear on the kind of maps it was looking for.
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your Country52798 Posts
This competition got me back into mapmaking and it was fun. See you all in two years when we have the next one!
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2013 02:51 chuky500 wrote:
5 finalists out of 9 have siegable naturals Which ones? I bet they must love Steppes of War and Lost temple. Of course they do, those maps were awesome. Call that superior mapping skills if you want I call that a disgrace. They actually apply the concepts correctly into the maps. After 3 years of mocking Blizzard and trolling other community mappers (I personally got a Rick Astley award) Seems like you got rickrolled. that's what they've came up with ? After the multiple circle jerks about "VARS" (only left-right symmetry was balanced), the solid vs creative, the 4player-rotational-symmetry, big-main-tiny-natural-touching-3rd, circle syndrome, 6-minerals-bases, daybreak clones, now siegable naturals and backdoors to the main is the new thing ? I really doubt you will "shake up the metagame" by going back to 3 year old gimmicks. It sounds like the real 'circle syndrome' is happening now when it comes to which features are popular. I've organized a handful of tournaments with community maps and top players and in my opinion the good mappers have left the community a long time ago. Awww man, I wanted to see them. This is not superior skills and they were neither the most balanced nor creative maps out there. That is really your opinion, but I don't agree.
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On May 23 2013 02:51 chuky500 wrote:
5 finalists out of 9 have siegable naturals, I bet they must love Steppes of War and Lost temple. Call that superior mapping skills if you want I call that a disgrace. After 3 years of mocking Blizzard and trolling other community mappers (I personally got a Rick Astley award) that's what they've came up with ? After the multiple circle jerks about "VARS" (only left-right symmetry was balanced), the solid vs creative, the 4player-rotational-symmetry, big-main-tiny-natural-touching-3rd, circle syndrome, 6-minerals-bases, daybreak clones, now siegable naturals and backdoor to the main is the new thing ? I really doubt you will "shake up the metagame" by going back to 3 year old gimmicks. I've organized a handful of tournaments with community maps and top players and in my opinion the good mappers have left the community a long time ago. This is not superior skills and they were neither the most balanced nor creative maps out there.
I would just like to say to everyone reading Chuky's comments, that I don't think he has any idea what he is talking about, so please do not take him seriously and ignore his negativity.
Firstly, siegable from the low ground naturals and mains are fine. Several maps in the past, including Ohana, Metalopolis, and TDA have such a feature, and those played out just fine in regards to the main and natural sieging. TDA was a bit iffy for the fact that the units sieging the natural were incredibly hard to attack into because of this little 'nook'. Yet, the balance stats showed that TDA was one of the most balanced maps of all time. So, whatever. Additionally, maps that did not have such a 'nook' never saw siege play. I would also like to point out that Back to Back, Chuky's map, has both and he says that map is just fine. I smell a bit of hypocrisy on Chuky's part.
Secondly, I think Chuky doesn't understand why Back to Back has not been chosen in any map tournament for the last 2 or 3 years. The map is incredibly boring, with very linear pathing and expansion pattern. It literally has nothing that would make it stand out from any other maps submitted. Whether the map is balanced or not, Daybreak is quite frankly more interesting, and that's saying something. The map also looks like it was made in roughly an hour, and did no receive any high amounts of care until proam, where the talented mapmaker Johanaz made the map the best it could ever be. Even with such drastic changes, it still is nothing special. I think Chuky just has to realize that in order to get a map anywhere, it has to be different than the dozens of other maps that are made each month, and Back to Back is far from such
Thirdly, I just think Chuky is mad that his map never gets picked for anything, and is thus making nonsensical rage about it. Where this is certainly subjective, I think it's quite valid with the harsh tone and negativity he seems to be coming out with in his comments.
As a result of these factors, I do not think he has any idea what he is talking about, and is just looking to start shit. Thus, I once again please ask anyone reading his comments to not take him seriously and to ignore his negativity. Thanks!
P.S. Chuky, you should try and move on and make another map.
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If you believe sieging a tank between the main and natural is not only possible but that it's the same as sieging from outside the base then I understand why you call me an hypocrit. FYI the version that was submitted is there. About your opinion that it's boring, DOA has casted a King of the Hill on it on the IPL TV, so other people have different views as you. You have your opinion, other people have different ones, no need to call me a hypocrit or say that I have no idea what I'm talking about and btw I have more experience in mapping as you do so maybe you should respect that.
edit : after rereading your post I'd like to reply to you saying I only got attention after the proam contest, I've run several tournaments with players like Dayshi, Seiplo, AdelScoot and other Euro GM so I think it's got plenty of attention before that. The whole Proam contest was a big troll like the Rick Astley award. Johanaz erased most of the work we did on the last day and submitted a different version than what we'd been workin on. Then he mocked me on forums but I didn't say a word about it because he's a respected guy. But that was pretty disrespectful from his side. Now maybe you understand why the so called mapping community isn't high in my heart.
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On May 23 2013 04:49 chuky500 wrote:If you believe sieging a tank between the main and natural is not only possible but that it's the same as sieging from outside the base then I understand why you call me an hypocrit. FYI the version that was submitted is there. About your opinion that it's boring, DOA has casted a King of the Hill on it on the IPL TV, so other people have different views as you. You have your opinion, other people have different ones, no need to call me a hypocrit or say that I have no idea what I'm talking about and btw I have more experience in mapping as you do so maybe you should respect that. edit : after rereading your post I'd like to reply to you saying I only got attention after the proam contest, I've run several tournaments with players like Dayshi, Seiplo, AdelScoot and other Euro GM so I think it's got plenty of attention before that. The whole Proam contest was a big troll like the Rick Astley award. Johanaz erased most of the work we did on the last day and submitted a different version than what we'd been workin on. Then he mocked me on forums but I didn't say a word about it because he's a respected guy. But that was pretty disrespectful from his side. Now maybe you understand why the so called mapping community isn't high in my heart.
Because making a single map gives you more experience than the dozens of maps that I have made. Seems legit.
Edit: Some of my maps have been played on by notable players such as Top, Teaja, Tassadar, Ganzi, Life, and Jjakji. They have also have been played in tournaments such as TL Open, Dreamhack, and the ESV Korean Weekly. Now, have you heard of my maps getting such achievements? I doubt it. Thus, I don't think running little tournaments and getting a couple GM validates as attention.
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On May 23 2013 05:03 Timetwister22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 04:49 chuky500 wrote:If you believe sieging a tank between the main and natural is not only possible but that it's the same as sieging from outside the base then I understand why you call me an hypocrit. FYI the version that was submitted is there. About your opinion that it's boring, DOA has casted a King of the Hill on it on the IPL TV, so other people have different views as you. You have your opinion, other people have different ones, no need to call me a hypocrit or say that I have no idea what I'm talking about and btw I have more experience in mapping as you do so maybe you should respect that. Because making a single map gives you more experience than the dozens of maps that I have made. Seems legit.
sshh! it's superouman in disguise!
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Well I've published 4 and linked to a thread of a whole map pool I reskinned so yeah keep trying attacking me while I get warned.
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Is this Chuky guy for real?
On May 23 2013 05:10 chuky500 wrote:
Well I've published 4 and linked to a thread of a whole map pool I reskinned so yeah keep trying attacking me while I get warned.
That still doesn't give you the same amount of mapping experience as TimeTwister, let alone more of it. Running tournaments with GM players in it also doesn't qualify as mapping experience; I've done the same and I can guarantee I didn't learn anything about mapping while being busy updating brackets, finding games for casters, and supporting the players with their questions.
I think a little dose of reality might do you some good, man. o_O
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On May 23 2013 05:10 chuky500 wrote:
Well I've published 4 and linked to a thread of a whole map pool I reskinned so yeah keep trying attacking me while I get warned.
Why would reskinning a map give you any experience? I mean, it's cool, but I don't see how that would give you a better insight in map design.
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Being in the scene since the beginning of SC2 mapping gives you experience, and modifying the same map over 3 years, watching the metagame evolve over the years and tweaking the map accordingly gives you experience. I won't comment on the claim that it was made in "roughly an hour". I was there when every community map had a backdoor to the main like Blistering Sands and a siegeable natural like Lost Temple. Timetwister22 wasn't. So he made Haven's Lagoon and now he's popular, but it doesn't give him the right to say I have no idea what I'm talking about.
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On May 23 2013 05:48 chuky500 wrote:
Being in the scene since the beginning of SC2 mapping gives you experience, and modifying the same map over 3 years, watching the metagame evolve over the years and tweaking the map accordingly gives you experience. I won't comment on the claim that it was made in "roughly an hour". I was there when every community map had a backdoor to the main like Blistering Sands and a siegeable natural like Lost Temple. Timetwister22 wasn't. So he made Haven's Lagoon and now he's popular, but it doesn't give him the right to say I have no idea what I'm talking about.
okay guys, let's sort this out.
chuky has been around here forever and has seen all kind of maps with strange features and the metagame evolve.
timetwister has made more than one ugly, but famous (and quite good) map called lagoon something.
now back to playing and/or mapping, pron or whatever. this shit here leads to nothing and destroys my favorite thread in the last two years.
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On May 23 2013 05:10 chuky500 wrote:
Well I've published 4 and linked to a thread of a whole map pool I reskinned so yeah keep trying attacking me while I get warned.
Your perception of "mapping experience" makes no sense. Basically your argument is
"Timetwister, you just make maps. Cool. But I make maps and re-skin them, so I have more mapping experience!"
Re-skinning is nothing but a low-rated skill. Can you precisely port over a Broodwar map? Can you take an old WoL map and make it totally different for HotS like I did with Khaydaria/Khalis? Do you understand lighting regions? Can you make tutorials? Have you posted anything in the Map Art Thread? How many maps, aside from Back2back and Congo did you make? What's your latest?
Running a few tournaments and altering your map for the past 3 years does not give you mapping experience. It gives you knowledge of the metagame, plain and simple. If you want to claim you have such experience, then your next map should no doubt look like the next Cloud Kingdom.
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On May 23 2013 05:48 chuky500 wrote:
Being in the scene since the beginning of SC2 mapping gives you experience, and modifying the same map over 3 years, watching the metagame evolve over the years and tweaking the map accordingly gives you experience. I won't comment on the claim that it was made in "roughly an hour". I was there when every community map had a backdoor to the main like Blistering Sands and a siegeable natural like Lost Temple. Timetwister22 wasn't. So he made Haven's Lagoon and now he's popular, but it doesn't give him the right to say I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Dude, get some respect and stop attributing every failure on your part to some kind of global conspiracy against you. If you've allegedly been tweaking the map in line with the metagame you should consider the fact that it's barely changed at all in all that time. It's not a good map and the fact that you organised tournaments and put it in the map pool or poorly recoloured a few ladder maps doesn't mean you have a better understanding of map balance than: (1) the entire mapmaking community; (2) the judges of this competition; (3) the pros who have given feedback not only in the form of judging (i.e. TLO, Morrow) but also in terms of the feedback that the mapmaking teams regularly get from decent players.
tl;dr Grow up.
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You have been modifying the same map for over 3 years? Honestly, If people don't like it the first time you show it, they won't like it any more the second time, let alone the xth time 3 years later. Some people don't like your map, that happens more often than not. The best thing you can do is make another map and hope people will like it more.
We all hate Havens Lagoon when we first saw it, Timetwister went on to make dozens of other maps, every single one being better than the one before. At this point, I consider him leagues above your level.
Now go make another map!
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On May 23 2013 05:48 chuky500 wrote:
Being in the scene since the beginning of SC2 mapping gives you experience
The experience of being an armchair critic, not being a good mapper.
On May 23 2013 05:48 chuky500 wrote:
and modifying the same map over 3 years, watching the metagame evolve over the years and tweaking the map accordingly gives you experience.
The experience of beating a dead horse and making minor adjustments to a failed project, not being a good mapper.
On May 23 2013 05:48 chuky500 wrote:
I won't comment on the claim that it was made in "roughly an hour". I was there when every community map had a backdoor to the main like Blistering Sands and a siegeable natural like Lost Temple. Timetwister22 wasn't. So he made Haven's Lagoon and now he's popular, but it doesn't give him the right to say I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Your belief that Timetwister's only contribution to being a respected community member is through Haven's Lagoon shows a clear disconnect with the mapmaking community as a whole. He's done far more than that, and gives me pause when taking your claims of "being in the scene" since the beginning of SC2 at face value.
I honestly recommend you take a breather, then spend some time working toward contributing to the mapmaking scene instead of having a tantrum over the TLMC finalists and the fact your 3-year-old map was rejected.
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I was replying to Timetwister who claimed I supposedly only made a single map that took roughly 1 hour, that I had no idea what I was talking about and that Ohana and Metalopolis had a siegable main (whatever) therefore I was a hypocrit. I'm the one who got a warning btw. The first mapping contest was about finding standard and solid maps, and this one was about finding creative ones that's why I submitted it, and it's not even the same version. If the rules stayed the same I wouldn't have submitted.
You can argue all you want about it being bad or ugly but I consider my map layout in advance for reasons you probably don't care about (distances between bases prevent base trades, attack path is different from defense path, watch towers are used for attack instead of defense, making harassing less 1 sided and other features). When Timetwister claims you can't make a bright lighting with a dark tileset, I don't consider this being leagues above my level. Skinning may be a low skill like Ironmansc says, but I know that each base must have a different set of textures and a different mineral line orientation, because it helps the players and spectators recognize where they are when the camera jumps from a place to another one. So I believe I do know what I'm talking about and I know things you don't. Yes that's experience. But if the mapping community stopped giving troll awards, backstabbing the mapper they're working with and other things you don't know but I won't mention because I've said enough..., and started listening to what other mappers have to say without calling them out the level of maps would increase.
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EPT
