From Saturday, May 18 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) To Sunday, May 19 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
Rules: [*]All participants send one topic to the admin via PM, e.g. 'rocks' and 'low main'. Combine the two randomly selected topics (tba) in one map. Post your map overview and relevant details in this thread and have your map uploaded to EU/NA within the next 24 hours. Poll decides on winner with participants having one additional vote.
Winner is determined Wednesday, May 22 4:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
Make sure to place your vote in the public poll. Participants of the event can place an additional vote by sending a private message to RFDaemoniac containing the author and map name that their additional vote goes to.
Innovative ways to add advertising to a map (flags, billboards, etc) without ruining the map Incorporated "penis-shape". I'm dead serious. Beach mixed with jungle maps Creative use of penis highgrounds Female reproductive organs (Ovary highgrounds, etc)
Process Send your idea for an interesting topic to the event's administrator via a private message to RFDaemoniac. Two topics are randomly selected using randomizer.org at the start of the event, and then immediately made official. This way, no "cheating" can occur, and the administrator can technically participate as well.
Make sure you read the How does it work? section as well and feel free to ask additional questions in this thread.
What is the Map Jam & Challenge? The Map Jam & Challenge is a format by and for the community. The Map Jam & Challenge is a regular map making competition. The Map Jam & Challenge wants you to be creative and quick. The Map Jam & Challenge provokes thinking outside the box.
This is a format developed collaboratively by Samro and Scorp, and was motivated by MotM, CSL Map Jam and the Map Making Challenge.
Why do this? It is all about challenging your fellow map makers with some strange idea and together do a 24h map making jam that will produce innovative, fun and crazy maps. From this format ideas may emerge that can be implemented to competitive maps - or maybe not. There is nothing to win like beta keys, sorry for that. I have no give aways, no tshirts. Also I do not own this format. This is an idea that i hope can be run by the community itself, without judges, organization, etc.
I know many will appreciate this. Here it is all about making maps. These may or may not be played. This is not the biggest point. We are looking for new ideas in maps and for new ways to make maps.
How does it work?
Runs monthly.
24 hours to allow all timezones a few hours. Is held in the weekend to allow the most people to participate.
All participants send one topic to the admin via PM, e.g. 'rocks' and 'low main'.
By a randomized process two topics are selected among all entries and made public to start the Map Jam & Challenge. This aspects helps to have no 'cheating' like preparing a map to give yourself more time.
Within the 24 hours participants post the overview in this thread and upload their map to EU/NA (ask your fellow map makers at EU/NA)
Public Vote decides on the winning map. Map makers who think they have the edge in evaluating how good a map is, can message the admin with their choice to have a double-vote.
Win = Fun & Fame
Map Jam & Challenge #5 The Map Jam & Challenge starts Saturday, May 18th, 10:00EST 15:00GMT and runs 24 hours. Topics need to be sent to RFDaemoniac via PM until one hour before the challenge starts. This gives the admin one hour to randomly select the double-topic. Via PM we will keep all ideas secret and fresh for the next round maybe and the double-topic is quite a surprise for everyone.
Topics will be announced in this thread.
The previous events were administrated by Scorp, Samro, and RFDaemoniac. In future events, other community members may administrate as well. If you are interested in administration please notify the admin of the most recent map jam.
I think after the TLMC people have had a lot of map making lately so this will probably will be less popular than the last ones, but hopefully if the map topics are good we will still see some submissions
Winner is determined Tuesday, Jan 15 11:00am EST (GMT-05:00)
good to know you'll take your time to judge!
Lol whoops. Updated ^^ Though it's not me that's judging!
About people being tired from working on maps for the TLMC, I think you're right, but there's also the angle that people have been working standard for too long and want to do something different.
On May 12 2013 01:52 moskonia wrote: I think after the TLMC people have had a lot of map making lately so this will probably will be less popular than the last ones, but hopefully if the map topics are good we will still see some submissions
Sent my topic.
Psh, I'm more stoked for this than TLMC Cuz I know I can win this one
On May 12 2013 01:52 moskonia wrote: I think after the TLMC people have had a lot of map making lately so this will probably will be less popular than the last ones
For sure, although it's a week until it actually starts so maybe that's enough time for people to recharge.
On May 14 2013 14:33 RFDaemoniac wrote: How do we feel about topics that aren't game play based / troll topics. Is there any amount of vetting that I should do?
You should make it an enjoyable and productive jam no matter the topics. If you receive a topic that would ruin the purpose, I'd filter it out.
On May 14 2013 14:33 RFDaemoniac wrote: How do we feel about topics that aren't game play based / troll topics. Is there any amount of vetting that I should do?
You should make it an enjoyable and productive jam no matter the topics. If you receive a topic that would ruin the purpose, I'd filter it out.
I agree, it has to have a bearing on map layout, otherwise, what's the point?
It's unfortunate because this weekend I'm actually going camping with some buds. I did send my topic in though, so even though I won't be able to create a map, I'll definitely be looking forward to the submissions when I get home late sunday. :D
On May 17 2013 00:50 SidianTheBard wrote: It's unfortunate because this weekend I'm actually going camping with some buds. I did send my topic in though, so even though I won't be able to create a map, I'll definitely be looking forward to the submissions when I get home late sunday. :D
Will you have a phone? Just napkin your map and send it in. PURE LAYOUT
My first attempt. I think it's got some cool stuff going on. I was a little concerned about the short path through the center, so I blocked it with 2 gold mineral patches that have 14 minerals each (so it takes 4 trips to get through them). Hopefully this is few enough that somebody would consider actually busting through, using the scouting worker as one, and then bringing another worker when you do the next.
also the top side of the bottom right main will be blocked with doodads so that reapers can't get in/out.
EDIT: updated a bit. the short rush distance is actually totally reasonable, so I removed the minerals.
EDIT2: I didn't have any more time to work on it after trying out things I didn't like, so this is my submission. Name is Kersmeffle :D + Show Spoiler +
Since the aesthetic topics are just for fun, can I add one? I'd like it if we weren't complete chauvinists and you can get bonus points for female reproductive organs as well. Ovary highgrounds etc.
@RFD: That's pretty cool 2entrance main design. I'm worried about having no lategame bases (nothing past 3) without getting to the lowground. Seems pretty rough for zvt. Maybe you can add a base somewhere that is far by ground but not a different cliff level?
@unvantank: I don't think you need the little holes adjusting the openness. Nowhere on the map right now is really huge open area so I think it's fine, especially those are in more lategame areas. Also the gold bases are already in winner's base positions and are easiest for terran by far (even if there's rocks blocking or something). Maybe they can face the other way and be backed up a little to make them more reasonable options for a special 4th base strategy or something?
I know these are for fun, but I still like to analyze them. I think it's instructive for "real" mapping! ^^
Hey everyone! Took a bit of a break from map making, and wanted to do the TLMC but just couldn't come up with any worthwhile concepts. Decided I'd do a Map Jam map though .
Initially, I was pretty happy with how my map turned out. Then I realized that while it was 116 width, the height was about the same when I massively shrunk the bounds. + Show Spoiler +
(Not sure why the picture got cut off).
With this unfavorable outcome, I decided to just make the map a 4-player map. It was something that I didn't want to do, but I also didn't want to come up with a whole new layout. I planned on doing the jungle / beach aesthetics, but now that it's a 4-player map, the ideas that I had for texturing are no longer possible.
I present to you: Shattered Dreams [NA] 116x152. + Show Spoiler +
Vertical spawns are disabled.
Hopefully in the near future, I'll be able to come up with an interesting map concept that I'll be happy with .
<<EDIT>> Added textures and fog,made slight changes and added a couple doodads. Previous Version: + Show Spoiler +
@Ruinsteel: What do you think about filling in the middle hole as normal ground? I think this would really improve the lategame (more mobility but still positional). I also don't think you need rocks on the center islands, since they're so vulnerable and far away from CC floating. I really like the map! I might steal some ideas if that's okay. :D
On May 19 2013 04:16 EatThePath wrote: Since the aesthetic topics are just for fun, can I add one? I'd like it if we weren't complete chauvinists and you can get bonus points for female reproductive organs as well. Ovary highgrounds etc.
On May 19 2013 04:16 EatThePath wrote: Since the aesthetic topics are just for fun, can I add one? I'd like it if we weren't complete chauvinists and you can get bonus points for female reproductive organs as well. Ovary highgrounds etc.
On May 19 2013 04:14 TheFish7 wrote: No ramps eh? Thats kind of a tough one. Well here are some inspirational pictures of some old maps that didn't rely on ramps.
On May 19 2013 04:14 TheFish7 wrote: No ramps eh? Thats kind of a tough one. Well here are some inspirational pictures of some old maps that didn't rely on ramps.
Seen these maps i just couldn't stop thinking about Hunters, i'm glad i wasn't the only one ^^
On May 19 2013 04:16 EatThePath wrote:@unvantank: I don't think you need the little holes adjusting the openness. Nowhere on the map right now is really huge open area so I think it's fine, especially those are in more lategame areas. Also the gold bases are already in winner's base positions and are easiest for terran by far (even if there's rocks blocking or something). Maybe they can face the other way and be backed up a little to make them more reasonable options for a special 4th base strategy or something?
I know these are for fun, but I still like to analyze them. I think it's instructive for "real" mapping! ^^
About the holes, i really like those, for some reason i have always liked these small holes and the dinamic it creates, slow armies, it gives a easy fortifiable position even if it is in a open area, so in any oportunity i have i add those, since it makes the players think about the terrain :3 In the gold expands i was just messing around, i like when maps use them in the center, but as you said when that happens sadly it's always a "winner position", and for the map since i had those holes in the center doing nothing and the map is not going anywhere, why the fuck not add some funky things on it?
That looks extremelly nice Coppermantis, are those the bridges that can be retracted right??
Sadly I can't make an actual map because of time issues, but I did make a draft of my idea, although size is problematic since it's really hard to tell what is a correct size and what is not.
Anyways the restrictions are really nice, the maps seem really unique. I think that a cool thing to do to make ZvZ good is to put creep instead of other means of blocking the main choke, this lets zerg the ability to block off the entrance, although I guess this is not a must, but it should make the ZvZ matchup better in a flat main choke map. Another idea is what I used on my draft, which is to make rock towers above the main choke so its breakable, thus making early aggression much weaker, although still allowing scouting.
My submition, i would love to work more on the texturing side but i have other things to do tomorrow so this will have to be enough :b
It doesn't have a name yet, i just suck at naming things (probably coz english isn't my mother language, but wherever), so i'll take any name you guys throw at it.
My submition, i would love to work more on the texturing side but i have other things to do tomorrow so this will have to be enough :b
It doesn't have a name yet, i just suck at naming things (probably coz english isn't my mother language, but wherever), so i'll take any name you guys throw at it.
I'll go with Super Jungle Sands since i'm not too sure if i can upload a map with a penis in his name AND layout without getting my account suspended...
Tar pits reduce all units' ground movement speed to 0.8. This means it takes any ground unit around 12 seconds to get through the pits (I played around w/ the numbers and this felt like the right value). When I first played with snare patches in the editor I stuck with the default % reduction method (instead of a flat maximum value), trying 20 and 25% movement speed, but then found that this overpunished 2.25 units for the sake of preventing speedlings from being OP. Plus, this way your units stay together if they're trying to make it through.. so I think this is a much more elegant version of the snare patch.
I think it can be viable to attack through the tar pits at times. It's sort of functions like a nydus in that it serves to punish greedy play or allows for a sneak attack. It's harder to shut down than a nydus in that you can't just kill the worm, but the enemy also has to travel across the map to use it. In any case, if you have something there to spot and aren't being too greedy you should be ok.
Keep in mind that if the army coming through the pits is a strong ranged army and you lack the means to deal with it any time soon, then movement speed doesn't really matter much and it will be a problem for you regardless of it taking them 12 seconds to get through. (unless you have something w/ superior range that can kite them while they come through)
XNT guarded by rocks in your main.. once you get it you can spot stuff coming through the tar pits or through the forward third.
Air/drops are likely to be strong on this map so the main mineral line is turned around to help. Also the chasm behind the main helps a little with simcity if your main is breached via the tar route.
All pods are droppable except the natural overlord spots. The ones in the center have rocks on them due to how strong they are.. you shouldn't be able to get them immediately.
Barest of barebone aesthetics just to make the map readable/show passability. If people like the map I'll finish the aesthetics and make the tar pits blend better or change the model to something else. And probably add some LOS blockers in a couple places as well.
Just wanted to say that this Map Jam's restrictions were pretty limiting.. no ramps is especially cruel because they're pretty much the best feature in SC2, despite highground being much weaker than in BW. I thought to make a 3p map because it works well with the no ramps restriction, but then 116 or less makes 3p a bitch.
Hopefully we get more than like 4 submissions b/c of the no ramp thing lol
On May 19 2013 11:27 Uvantak wrote: I'll go with Super Jungle Sands since i'm not too sure if i can upload a map with a penis in his name AND layout without getting my account suspended...
Love the tar pit concept Fatam! That could make for some really interesting games . All the maps submitted so far are looking pretty good, and I hope there are some more submissions before the Map Jam is over.
On another note, I couldn't leave my map untextured. Decided to add a couple doodads in unplayable areas and texture the map. Not finishing the map was eating away at me all day .
Semi in base natural. Main has two entrances (long way through natural) until you break the rock tower. Or you can wall at the rock tower. Long debris gets you much closer access to your towers and a 4th, but also opens to the natural. High ground above tower is pathable.
The idea with the corner high ground is that it's easier to harass because you can unload/nydus on the far side which is also closer by air and then move in a big army instead of unloading on top of defenses. It's also better for zerg to nydus since you get 2 bases out of it. And you can easily check a CC float with the tower.
I also really wanted to make a 3p (no ramps) but my only idea was to make an asymmetrical with these bounds, and ..eh no thx.
-Since there's no ramp anywhere, the LoS blockers make the main wall-off a bit... interesting. To offset your complete and total lack of vision, the wall-off requires only 1 rax and 1 depot, just like the natural choke on Zerus Prime.
-Your 3rd and 4th bases will most likely be the island by the nat, and the base behind the rock tower. But since the island can be harassed from the high ground nearby, knocking down the rocks protects both expansions by ground.
-The main is oriented in a way that makes it vulnerable by air. You can take one of the central expansions to establish a strong position on the ground, but this pulls you further away from your main, where it becomes very vulnerable. You can counteract this by setting up at the gold base, and at the 3/9 o'clock base, but this spreads you far apart on the ground. Something to think about. The gold bases have 2 unbuildable rocks blocking them each, and they are also islands. Get Ventral Sacs zergbuddies
-The Xel'Naga towers: these are awesome imo. They watch the point where the flank path and the short rush path converge, spotting a wide range of ground movement, but a winding path across the map can avoid both towers. They also watch over the gold base, revealing if it's been taken, or if either or both of the rocks has been destroyed. Finally it watches over the air space behind your exposed main base, but not all of it. A drop going along the very outside of the map will remain unseen.
Somehow I managed to wake up at 10 am after ~4 hours of sleep and saw this thing and immediately though "island map" so I decided I'd have to make one.
Didn't notice the optional things until way late so it took some retrofitting but managed tuck it all in there pretty thematically.
116x144 Map name: Capitalism
My editor is ultra messed up though, (its some sort of half patched WoL version?) so the lighting seems pretty iffy.
The Jam is now closed! If you had something super duper special and haven't posted it yet... maybe we can push it in there, but probably not.
And so many submissions, too! While no ramps is hard I had a lot of fun with it. I also thought Island map but wanted to have a short rush distance in addition to forcing drops/air. That's part of why I didn't have many bases in the middle ground (@EatThePath). A pretty sweet mix of weird things and pretty much standard. I hope we get to see some games on at least one of these in the upcoming show, see if we're no longer bound by 1 ramp down mains.
On May 19 2013 23:12 RFDaemoniac wrote: The Jam is now closed! If you had something super duper special and haven't posted it yet... maybe we can push it in there, but probably not.
And so many submissions, too! While no ramps is hard I had a lot of fun with it. I also thought Island map but wanted to have a short rush distance in addition to forcing drops/air. That's part of why I didn't have many bases in the middle ground (@EatThePath). A pretty sweet mix of weird things and pretty much standard. I hope we get to see some games on at least one of these in the upcoming show, see if we're no longer bound by 1 ramp down mains.
I think you missed Fatam's Monkey Business. I don't see it in the poll.
Somehow I managed to wake up at 10 am after ~4 hours of sleep and saw this thing and immediately though "island map" so I decided I'd have to make one.
Didn't notice the optional things until way late so it took some retrofitting but managed tuck it all in there pretty thematically.
116x144 Map name: Captialism
My editor is ultra messed up though, (its some sort of half patched WoL version?) so the lighting seems pretty iffy.
A lot of sweet submissions. (I just got home, much earlier then expected, but still unfortunately too late to make something.) I like how a lot of people did the mains and naturals without having ramps. The cool thing (imo) about limiting yourself to no ramps is that you could easily go back now, add some ramps to places and you could still have a somewhat standard map, just with a fairly unique expansion path.
Oh No! I've updated the OP to include Fatam's Monkey Business. I can't edit polls, so you can PM votes for it to me, including people who were not participants. I must've forgot to include it while reading about the Tar Pits o_0
These Tar pits looks like a really sexy idea, but i have a question, if i send a scouting probe does it takes more time to walk around the pits of by crossing them? i really intrigued by that
On May 20 2013 05:36 Uvantak wrote: These Tar pits looks like a really sexy idea, but i have a question, if i send a scouting probe does it takes more time to walk around the pits of by crossing them? i really intrigued by that
I timed it - it's 70 seconds for a worker to go main town hall to main town hall through the tar pits and 65 seconds if you go around.. so not a huge difference. In most circumstances going around makes more sense since it's slightly faster and you go through the nat so you'll see if he has a FE up But I could see a delayed scout going through the tar to avoid getting spotted/killed being a really smart play.
If you wanna test anything else it's published on all regions ("monkey business").
Templar gets the fertility award. Actually want to make a map like that now, we haven't seen nearly enough skinny mirror maps.
Yep you can wall off that area, you need 3 3x3 buildings just like you would need to cover a natural base, i like the map quite a bit, but i must say that is a really painful experience to get caught crossing the tar pits
Optional Topics weren't a thing in the previous jams, but now that we all know they exist I think we'll make more of an effort for it. I used ovaries in my other attempts, but didn't like the layouts as much as this one.
Alright, voting has slowed to a crawl so I'm going to declare some favorites.
We have a tie between lorestarcraft's Broken Moon and New Sunshine's Ahola. Unfortunately lore's overview has been removed from imgur (wtf?) so... yeah. Congrats to both ^^
I think I'm likely to use XNT's in the main that are blocked by rocks, high ground pods with 2 expansions on them that are pretty far apart to allow dropping, EatThePath's main/nat setup, and the short skinny rush distance in future maps.
I hope y'all have been inspired as much as I have.
The_Templar has offered to administrate the next map jam. Announcement will be on the 8th of June and the jam will be on the 15th.
On May 24 2013 06:31 RFDaemoniac wrote: Alright, voting has slowed to a crawl so I'm going to declare some favorites.
We have a tie between lorestarcraft's Broken Moon and New Sunshine's Ahola. Unfortunately lore's overview has been removed from imgur (wtf?) so... yeah. Congrats to both ^^
I think I'm likely to use XNT's in the main that are blocked by rocks, high ground pods with 2 expansions on them that are pretty far apart to allow dropping, EatThePath's main/nat setup, and the short skinny rush distance in future maps.
I hope y'all have been inspired as much as I have.
The_Templar has offered to administrate the next map jam. Announcement will be on the 8th of June and the jam will be on the 15th.
I had some duplicate images and I deleted the wrong one. Here ya go if you want it.
I'm going to be the first one to say: I have no idea what those 9 people see in Lore's map, which is to say I have no idea why it's leading the vote. Visually, it's about as unattractive as it could possibly be, and with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map. Granted, these two aren't terribly important with a map jam, given the implementation of the topics can compensate for it. But the map doesn't even use the given topics in any noteworthy way, in fact nearly every other submission looks better in this regard. It looks more like a mediocre attempt at a standard map, contorted at the last minute to fit the topics. I don't get it.
On May 24 2013 08:36 NewSunshine wrote: I'm going to be the first one to say: I have no idea what those 9 people see in Lore's map, which is to say I have no idea why it's leading the vote. Visually, it's about as unattractive as it could possibly be, and with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map. Granted, these two aren't terribly important with a map jam, given the implementation of the topics can compensate for it. But the map doesn't even use the given topics in any noteworthy way, in fact nearly every other submission looks better in this regard. It looks more like a mediocre attempt at a standard map, contorted at the last minute to fit the topics. I don't get it.
Every other submission looks better? I didn't have time to do hardly any aesthetics, due to being out of town during half of the contest, and these aren't really about that anyway. In regards to your attack on my layout, most of these layouts are not fine-tuned very much + Show Spoiler +
, but I guarantee you 100% that my layout would play 10x better than your 2-base all-in map. I really don't know why you actually thought attacking my map in this thread would be a good idea, or what that would achieve. At one time I had a healthy respect for your skill, but when you put out stuff like this: + Show Spoiler +
(not a map-jam map) and then come after me, complaining about WHAT THE VOTERS CHOSE (along with your map) then I really don't know what that says about you. These map-jams are about having a good time and hoping that what we did strikes a cord with people. I'm just a guy trying to follow my passion and share it with the rest of the community and starcraft players as a whole. So, please, just lay down the ax and enjoy these times while we have them.
In all seriousness, attacking other people's maps is very childish without any actual data and even with, I would suggest everyone calm down, were all mappers here.
Anyways if talking about votes, I think RFDaemoniac's map is the best, instead of trying to make the map that forces the currect meta on the topics, he used them to make the map very interesting and should play uniquely. The overall chokiness combined with the manyvliff levels makes it so going for air units or drops is the best way to play, but not the only way, which is very cool. Yes mirror matchups are going to be really aggressive, but that fits with the theme of the map.
I think RFDaemoniac's map is nearly the exact opposite of my map, which tries to fix issues caused by the themes instead of trying to enforce them. I am not saying one is better than the other, but I do think that going on the extreme on map jams is the way to go, instead of going mid way which leaves you bold from all sides.
Ah yes, the good times are certainly fleeting in the mapping world these days.
Anyway if you want to know what I picked, I only ever vote for myself because I need the validation and probably something about my father leaving me as a kid and blah blah emotional scars blah blah
But seriously all the maps were pretty good and I'd say these events are quite successful at what they aim to do. The only thing that would be better is if we played some games on them for testing. I can't wait for the next map jam!
I definitely found ideas I want to steal in every map that was posted, which I love. Go mapjam!
I will also say I'm very confused by the number of votes that lore's map got. This is not meant to disparage lore's map at all, it's just strange how voting works out with these things; like, how to you decide what to vote for from so many close choices? I don't think we need to flame anyone. I like what lore said.
In fact I was so torn with my votes because there were lots of ideas I wanted to reward and I really wanted to recognize some of the people who didn't have any votes in the poll, because it's nice to have that validation. cough fish cough. :D but it is.
So great job everybody!
I played a few games on my map. If you are really desperate, host your map in custom games and just wait for a joiner. You get a lot of super noobs, but even that can be useful. I found out that basically everyone was implicitly confused about my main entrance, and they walled off their natural leaving their main choke open. And took the 3rd as the natural. lol.
I voted for Infallible but I could see voting for a few different ones. I dont think there was an overwhelming best.
It's not like it even matters much who wins :-P so w/e. Just a fun competition to see what we can come up with. And maybe if you like what you came up with then you make it into a full-blown map that you might not have made otherwise.
Another thing. I do think the person hosting the map jam should be able to "roll again" if the randomizer lands on a really dumb or overly restrictive topic. I think "no ramps" is pretty close to that line My reasoning being that almost every map here would be better with ramps somewhere on it.
I think we should try and encourage each other to be candid about what we think, particularly in these exercises! We should also of course be consciously non-aggressive in our comments.
I like that 3 or 4 of us also went for multiple entrance mains. It's like as soon as you get away from "must be one ramp down into the natural" we start doing some really interesting things. Makes you wonder
About playing these, I'd be down for a session that we stream and play maps from the most recent jam after submissions close before voting ends.
On May 24 2013 08:36 NewSunshine wrote: I'm going to be the first one to say: I have no idea what those 9 people see in Lore's map, which is to say I have no idea why it's leading the vote. Visually, it's about as unattractive as it could possibly be, and with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map. Granted, these two aren't terribly important with a map jam, given the implementation of the topics can compensate for it. But the map doesn't even use the given topics in any noteworthy way, in fact nearly every other submission looks better in this regard. It looks more like a mediocre attempt at a standard map, contorted at the last minute to fit the topics. I don't get it.
Every other submission looks better? I didn't have time to do hardly any aesthetics, due to being out of town during half of the contest, and these aren't really about that anyway. In regards to your attack on my layout, most of these layouts are not fine-tuned very much + Show Spoiler +
, but I guarantee you 100% that my layout would play 10x better than your 2-base all-in map. I really don't know why you actually thought attacking my map in this thread would be a good idea, or what that would achieve. At one time I had a healthy respect for your skill, but when you put out stuff like this: + Show Spoiler +
(not a map-jam map) and then come after me, complaining about WHAT THE VOTERS CHOSE (along with your map) then I really don't know what that says about you. These map-jams are about having a good time and hoping that what we did strikes a cord with people. I'm just a guy trying to follow my passion and share it with the rest of the community and starcraft players as a whole. So, please, just lay down the ax and enjoy these times while we have them.
I don't see why you take to the defense so much, I'm being as objective as I can be. And yes, in terms of using the topics in an interesting way, the other submissions do look better, at least to me, aesthetically as well. That's what the optional topics were for btw. Clearly I can't speak for anyone else, though I will say in discussions I've had that other people tend to agree. You're also not the only one who was busy the day of, I had an 8-hour shift of work before I could start my map, at 1 in the morning.
You really don't want people to start seeing you in the wrong light, and with what happened on SC2melee.net, you really started off on the wrong foot. Thanks for attacking me, by the way.
On May 24 2013 08:36 NewSunshine wrote: I'm going to be the first one to say: I have no idea what those 9 people see in Lore's map, which is to say I have no idea why it's leading the vote. Visually, it's about as unattractive as it could possibly be, and with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map. Granted, these two aren't terribly important with a map jam, given the implementation of the topics can compensate for it. But the map doesn't even use the given topics in any noteworthy way, in fact nearly every other submission looks better in this regard. It looks more like a mediocre attempt at a standard map, contorted at the last minute to fit the topics. I don't get it.
Dude, it's a map jam. Are you expecting people to have amazingly refined layouts and aesthetics completed in 24 hours? :c I'm sure you'd agree that every map could use some refinement, but that's not the point of the map jam. I also don't see why you thought it necessary to bash a map that attempted to take wild concepts and apply them in a practical manner. I personally think it's this practical application that's winning people over (well, at least that's true for myself, anyway ).
Anywho, I think my favourites are Lore's and EatThePath's maps. This is assuming the spawns on ETP's is top-left/bottom-right. The tar pits on Fatam's map intrigue me, but I'd wanna test the feature myself before really giving my opinion on whether the map looks good/bad to me.
On May 24 2013 08:36 NewSunshine wrote: I'm going to be the first one to say: I have no idea what those 9 people see in Lore's map, which is to say I have no idea why it's leading the vote. Visually, it's about as unattractive as it could possibly be, and with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map. Granted, these two aren't terribly important with a map jam, given the implementation of the topics can compensate for it. But the map doesn't even use the given topics in any noteworthy way, in fact nearly every other submission looks better in this regard. It looks more like a mediocre attempt at a standard map, contorted at the last minute to fit the topics. I don't get it.
Dude, it's a map jam. Are you expecting people to have amazingly refined layouts and aesthetics completed in 24 hours? :c I'm sure you'd agree that every map could use some refinement, but that's not the point of the map jam. I also don't see why you thought it necessary to bash a map that attempted to take wild concepts and apply them in a practical manner. I personally think it's this practical application that's winning people over (well, at least that's true for myself, anyway ).
Anywho, I think my favourites are Lore's and EatThePath's maps. This is assuming the spawns on ETP's is top-left/bottom-right. The tar pits on Fatam's map intrigue me, but I'd wanna test the feature myself before really giving my opinion on whether the map looks good/bad to me.
I did say those things aren't important for a map jam, I think. I also said that the map doesn't really have a "wild concept" to compensate. It looks like any other 2p map, only with no ramps. No experimentation with islands, pathable lowground for reapers and colossi, or anything really noteworthy. I choose to ignore stuff like how the 3rd base looks like a pain in the ass, because that's not really the point. It doesn't push any boundaries, which is what I do want to see.
From the start, map jams have always been 0% about aesthetics.. so to criticize any map jam based on that is kinda silly. You're free to add as few or as many as you want, but they're not supposed to have any bearing on the judging.
Also, I think it's in the TL rules about criticizing without specifics.. you can get warned/temp-banned if you're just like "blah blah is terrible!" without saying why. It's inflammatory and not helpful. Not that I'm really a stickler for the rules, but there is a reason that rule is there. People get pissed if you diss their shit without saying why ("with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map" isn't a specific reason).
To then play coy is even douchier, since I think you're intelligent enough to realize that such a comment might stir things up a little. For instance, if I went into a random person's map thread and simply posted "this map is bad" you can bet I'd get a warning for it (with a lot of map cave knives at my throat as well, if it was an established mapper's thread ).
When you take every possible opportunity to attack anything Galaxy and then play the innocent every single time.. well, I don't know if anyone is buying it anymore
TLDR be a better human being. All your passive-agressive vendetta stuff is unwarranted/makes no sense and I'm sick of the drama (I'm sure some others are as well).
On May 24 2013 15:42 Fatam wrote: From the start, map jams have always been 0% about aesthetics.. so to criticize any map jam based on that is kinda silly. You're free to add as few or as many as you want, but they're not supposed to have any bearing on the judging.
To be fair it seemed like the aesthetics themes were meant to win you "funsies" points, and a few people put in a fair amount of effort. Not that it's a big deal.
Wow, I really like what RFD* pointed out. We should definitely be capable of open discussion. In fact looking over the last several posts even though things got touchy I think everyone concerned can comfortably come back to plain dialogue sans flame. And in that spirit... :D
I didn't vote for fatam's because the map itself didn't really seem to stand out, I guess? The non-rampiness doesn't really seem to matter. But absolutely some cool ideas, and it also has nice simple aesthetics. I thought the tower used in conjunction with the alternate entrance to the main was an interesting choice, especially because it watches the path the attacker would take to bounce between the two attack points. I'll say again (I think I said it before) that the reduction to absolute low speed and not % is super super smart and makes the mire mechanic worth really looking in to. It also makes me think about a safer version of the mechanic "enemy repulsion field" where your main slows enemies but not you, and vice versa. If only we could actually put these things in maps and be taken seriously. =\
I like the shape of lore's map but I think it has to be a bit taller and needs another base. I feel it's unreasonable to zerg to have a 4th base that's already far forward and then no good 5th. The natural choke seems small for no reason but that's one of those easy fix whatevers. Space could be used better to create more interesting positions. The flatness is more stylistic than relevant. But this actually ends up being the "best" "standard" map that was presented and has some nice features too.
attempted to take wild concepts and apply them in a practical manner
I think that's a really cool thing to see in a mapjam. I always feel compelled to go nuts because, well, it's the perfect opportunity to do so. But it's also a very interesting question to see what kind of standard map you can make with wonky limitations, and that should teach us some things in the process.
Fish7's map is very unconventional with the way the 3rd works "out in the open" even though it has reasonable chokiness on the entrances actually. I can't get over the strangeness when I look at it although I think this style should be explored a lot more. The "concept" of the map comes across really well, which is rare and awesome. The island divided by a jungle wall with a hole in the middle and two beach routes on either side. I think this map would produce really interesting games.
RFD put together nice proportions and routing to make neat concepts into more than gimmicks. I would love to see what this map turns into without arbitrary limits, and some decoration.
grebliv's map has a cool oldschool approach. I wonder if this would actually work. I just worry about zerg's ground reinforce once they have to fight over bases in the open middle, but I guess nydus rally + hotkey + D occasionally would be fine. Theoretically this map would play out either very strategically or very technically or both, and might be pure awesome. The close lowground 3rd island needs unbuildable plates blocking the CC spot I think (rocks is too much).
This is getting long, I will give more feedback for others after I take a break.
On May 24 2013 15:42 Fatam wrote: From the start, map jams have always been 0% about aesthetics.. so to criticize any map jam based on that is kinda silly. You're free to add as few or as many as you want, but they're not supposed to have any bearing on the judging.
I know. It's why I said it's not important. I merely made an observation at the start of the post.
On May 24 2013 15:42 Fatam wrote: Also, I think it's in the TL rules about criticizing without specifics.. you can get warned/temp-banned if you're just like "blah blah is terrible!" without saying why. It's inflammatory and not helpful. Not that I'm really a stickler for the rules, but there is a reason that rule is there. People get pissed if you diss their shit without saying why ("with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map" isn't a specific reason).
To then play coy is even douchier, since I think you're intelligent enough to realize that such a comment might stir things up a little. For instance, if I went into a random person's map thread and simply posted "this map is bad" you can bet I'd get a warning for it (with a lot of map cave knives at my throat as well, if it was an established mapper's thread ).
When you take every possible opportunity to attack anything Galaxy and then play the innocent every single time.. well, I don't know if anyone is buying it anymore
TLDR be a better human being. All your passive-agressive vendetta stuff is unwarranted/makes no sense and I'm sick of the drama (I'm sure some others are as well).
I don't see how that rule would get me into any trouble in this case, my comment about the layout was secondary to the point of the post, similar to the aesthetic. If you want me to go into detail I can, however. Aside from that, any jabs I've taken at Galaxy were either in jest, or well and truly earned. Go back and look. To be honest, you guys have been playing a series of cards that doesn't make me, or one of many other community members, very happy with you. I'm all for burying it all and moving on, but are you? It's only as much drama as you guys make it, I'm not attacking anybody on a cosmic whim, nor is anybody else.
On May 24 2013 08:36 NewSunshine wrote: I'm going to be the first one to say: I have no idea what those 9 people see in Lore's map, which is to say I have no idea why it's leading the vote. Visually, it's about as unattractive as it could possibly be, and with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map. Granted, these two aren't terribly important with a map jam, given the implementation of the topics can compensate for it. But the map doesn't even use the given topics in any noteworthy way, in fact nearly every other submission looks better in this regard. It looks more like a mediocre attempt at a standard map, contorted at the last minute to fit the topics. I don't get it.
Dude, it's a map jam. Are you expecting people to have amazingly refined layouts and aesthetics completed in 24 hours? :c I'm sure you'd agree that every map could use some refinement, but that's not the point of the map jam. I also don't see why you thought it necessary to bash a map that attempted to take wild concepts and apply them in a practical manner. I personally think it's this practical application that's winning people over (well, at least that's true for myself, anyway ).
Anywho, I think my favourites are Lore's and EatThePath's maps. This is assuming the spawns on ETP's is top-left/bottom-right. The tar pits on Fatam's map intrigue me, but I'd wanna test the feature myself before really giving my opinion on whether the map looks good/bad to me.
I did say those things aren't important for a map jam, I think. I also said that the map doesn't really have a "wild concept" to compensate. It looks like any other 2p map, only with no ramps. No experimentation with islands, pathable lowground for reapers and colossi, or anything really noteworthy. I choose to ignore stuff like how the 3rd base looks like a pain in the ass, because that's not really the point. It doesn't push any boundaries, which is what I do want to see.
Yeah for sure, but I think a lot of that stuff is stylistic difference, and a lot of other maps (including yours) explored those alternative avenues. I think your legitimate criticism kind of got lost in the mail, so to speak, because of the sentence I bolded.
On the topic of creative approach, this is why Lore isn't the only mapmaker out there; we need guys like you who take different approaches to crazy concepts. However, it's also good to have people like Lore who try to take these same crazy concepts and try to apply them sparingly. This range of application helps us learn and grow as mapmakers, which I think is what the spirit of Map Jam is all about.
On May 24 2013 15:42 Fatam wrote: When you take every possible opportunity to attack anything Galaxy and then play the innocent every single time.. well, I don't know if anyone is buying it anymore
By the way, can we stop with these comments? I'm with NewSunshine when he says that it doesn't produce anything but negativity between us. We haven't been subject to anything that any other mapmaker hasn't been (e.g. Semmo and Fruitland, anyone?).
On May 24 2013 16:12 iamcaustic wrote: By the way, can we stop with these comments? I'm with NewSunshine when he says that it doesn't produce anything but negativity between us. We haven't been subject to anything that any other mapmaker hasn't been (e.g. Semmo and Fruitland, anyone?).
More or less, yeah. The thing is, at one point there was the whole "we're being attacked because we're new" spat, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and really only fuels more shit-tossing. If you guys stop looking for drama, and just focus on making the maps and improving, you guys will find a great community welcoming you. You guys have potential, but you have to work at it, it doesn't happen in a week, or a month, or even a year sometimes. It's just how it works.
On May 24 2013 16:12 iamcaustic wrote: By the way, can we stop with these comments? I'm with NewSunshine when he says that it doesn't produce anything but negativity between us. We haven't been subject to anything that any other mapmaker hasn't been (e.g. Semmo and Fruitland, anyone?).
More or less, yeah. The thing is, at one point there was the whole "we're being attacked because we're new" spat, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and really only fuels more shit-tossing. If you guys stop looking for drama, and just focus on making the maps and improving, you guys will find a great community welcoming you. You guys have potential, but you have to work at it, it doesn't happen in a week, or a month, or even a year sometimes. It's just how it works.
Agree completely; I've told the guys this as well, so hopefully this is a topic that doesn't need to be discussed again in the future.
On May 24 2013 13:51 RFDaemoniac wrote: Thanks for the encouragement moskonia ^^
I think we should try and encourage each other to be candid about what we think, particularly in these exercises! We should also of course be consciously non-aggressive in our comments.
I like that 3 or 4 of us also went for multiple entrance mains. It's like as soon as you get away from "must be one ramp down into the natural" we start doing some really interesting things. Makes you wonder
About playing these, I'd be down for a session that we stream and play maps from the most recent jam after submissions close before voting ends.
I think that if anyone that votes would say why they voted it would be really good, since this will give excellent feedback - "why your map is good", unlike normal feedback which is - "why your map is bad".
I voted for EatThePath's Infallible. I think it had a similar spirit to my intentions, making a map where air and drops are rewarded but aren't necessary, but was more cleanly executed and a little closer to standard. You have a lot of options for expanding, which makes me happy. I like player choice
I also like NewSunshine's semi-island and island base as a 3rd/4th set up. It, too, allows you to be pretty safe while going for air/drops. I'd like to see the center flipped or something, as all of the bases aside from the first 4 are ambiguous to a point of never being taken, and I think this weakens the map considerably. The attack path pattern is pretty sexy though. The movement itself is very aesthetic.
I already mentioned that I like the in-base XNT covered by rocks that exposes the second entrance to the main from Fatam's Monkey Business. I also think the two collapsible towers to take a forward third are very cool. They allow a Protoss to take an earlier third against a ling/muta zerg, or a meching terran to take a forward third by creating nice choked up terrain, without having too much of a negative effect in other matchups.
@EatThePath: I think terrain that only slows down enemy units is one of the more interesting pieces we could come up with. Even if it doesn't take foothold it starcraft I'm sure it'll be out there eventually.
I think The_Templar's map is also very interesting. The air rush distance is SOOO short, I'm not sure we've had experience with this since scrap station, and I for one would love to see how it works out now. Unfortunately anything past the first 3 bases seems impossible to hold, except for maybe sneaking an island base. I think this could be cleaned up a bit to be more useful.
I really like the island map with a large piece of terrain in the center, such that you are forced to go drops or air to start, but a large ground army can get a lot done in the late game. Grebliv and Coppermantis both have interesting takes on this. I like the main/nat setup in Capitalism a lot. There could be some nice dancing with reaper harass, and the mineral line at the nat is a little vulnerable, so you could perhaps warp in stalkers on the lowground from your nat to harass the mineral line at your opponent's nat fairly early in the game without threatening endgame.
On May 24 2013 13:51 RFDaemoniac wrote: Thanks for the encouragement moskonia ^^
I think we should try and encourage each other to be candid about what we think, particularly in these exercises! We should also of course be consciously non-aggressive in our comments.
I like that 3 or 4 of us also went for multiple entrance mains. It's like as soon as you get away from "must be one ramp down into the natural" we start doing some really interesting things. Makes you wonder
About playing these, I'd be down for a session that we stream and play maps from the most recent jam after submissions close before voting ends.
I think that if anyone that votes would say why they voted it would be really good, since this will give excellent feedback - "why your map is good", unlike normal feedback which is - "why your map is bad".
Well, sometimes you get good feedback too, but not as much, so it'd definitely be nice to hear for a change.
Okay on with my review of all the submissions since I didn't want to leave anyone out.
Templar's map definitely has some issues due to spacing, including goofy ones like you can blink between the mains. But this is adjustable so the concept is more the point I think. I really like the idea of a tall skinny mirror map. Maybe the close islands should be south of the main, allowing a shorter ground distance on a map that has a huge U shape path. I could see a stable meta on this map involving a timing where you have a lot of static defense at the edge of your main/nat/island and then the compositions transition to a ground war in the north, letting you make super sweet lategame terrain that you probably couldn't do on another more standard map.
I love the clean feel of Unvatank's super jungle sands, and the name lol. I ruled out voting for it because the ground 4th base is also the last base, and too close to the enemy ground 3rd, and I am strict about these things because I think it's unfair to zerg and not great design. However there is certainly room for a map that has these features, and because of the island here it makes it a lot less foregone conclusion. The alternate main entrance/pathway is a nice touch in the same vein. Very likeable map and would be a nice ladder style sweet and simple kind of map to have in a pool. The islands should be far less rock-blocked though.
Ruinsteel put together a fresh version of the metropolis style, which is something worth saying. This map would create some interesting build order situations depending on spawns, and I think we would see interesting deviations from standard versions of things we know. Like skytoss in close positions might get tempest faster for harass, and they would also get a robo faster to take the island 3rd. Super easy to kill rocks with void rays. So while we see skytoss games this would provide new areas to explore, which is cool. The 5 base arc also acts very differently in cross or closeair spawns. Like you put static defense in your main naturally, which means later in the game the 5th bases are more naturally taken across the arc given your main is already defended, and this feels safe in closeair spawns. But in cross spawns taking your 5th so close by air from the opponent's main seems much more dangerous and static defense isn't warranted like it is protecting your main the whole game. So I think you'd see a lot more usage of the islands in cross spawns to maintain a better center of mass. That kind of spawn dependent variety that is encouraged but not mandated is pretty cool, and I like how it plays up the islands. I also like how the "isolated" middle bowl is actually a great position even though it's removed from blocking movement across the direct pathways unless you reposition.
Copper's map is as someone else mentioned like greblivs but very different. I like that the 3rd attaches to the mainland. Not sure I like that there are island areas again after that on either side. The big split path really encourages air even after you move to the mainland phase of the game, which is cool, but makes things feel kind of cheesy too, I guess? Not sure. On second thought the idea of a quick 2nd island 4th off the back of whatever tech got you down the 3rd would be pretty cool, so that appeals to me. I wish the map had more interaction available for ground armies; it sort of forces you to go there at a certain point but the results would be quite swingy. Like you should either stick to air and win or pull off a lategame ground switch and win, but there's not much wiggle there to fight it out.
moskonia wins the keeping-it-real award. :D I recommend using different colours in the future and drawing out the mineral lines and geysers to make the map easier to read, but that's just nitpicking. I don't like how compact the first 4 bases are on this map, I'd really like to see more separation between the bases outside the main choke. I also generally don't like the placement of the corner 5th base, but this could easily change if it was a real map with more terrain drawn in. The 6th base placement is working towards creating the shifting axis dynamic I love, but again not sure without more fleshed out terrain. I do really like the pathable highground placements though. I'd be interested to see what this map turned into if was more than a diagram.
Ahola, lol. Has some really nice ideas and I like the dynamics crossing the map. Probably wouldn't play out very well due to some specific problems though. Floating CC to gold for a 3rd is pretty dicey. Also having the 3rd by ground able to be closed off by rock tower is something I think we should just not use. It's really easy for terran to abuse this, and plenty of other situations as well. Unless the 3rd is extremely easy, this should be avoided. In this case the ground distance is already kinda far and also the route is open, so it's just asking for abuse to take that base at a normal early-ish macro 3rd timing. Which points this map towards 2 base style, so idk. The close island 3rd with the cliff is a neat idea, but it's far too protected by the ground 3rd as a 4th base. If you got the island 3rd up and running, the 4th is nearly automatic with little more required -- in fact it buffers your island cash flow. This would need to be moved around I think. It's one of these maps where I love all the ideas but I don't think they're calibrated well, but in the short timeframe of a mapjam it's understandable, especially when they aren't standard features but very different dynamics than we usually analyze.
I guess I'll analyze my map a bit. Or just talk about it lol. Not super happy with the middle, since it's kind of monolithic and plain. The towers are so dominant too. However it works very well for the map concept, especially with the long debris, and having something dependable (dominant towers, big open ground and chokes at the exterior, a simple outside path) I feel would let players use the island areas with more security and therefore panache and finesse, if that makes sense. Similarly, the middle is simple to let the early game features come to the forefront. I really like how the main/nat turned out, that was the beginning of the map. I knew I wanted a dropable natural that incentivized taking the corner double island as a strategic choice of 3rd that dovetails with defending the natural from drops, and leads you to a nice easy 4th as a reward if you can pull it off. The ground 3rd is close but in conjunction with drop threats elsewhere, not at all easy between the highground harass on the geysers, the harass path and the open front, plus the debris that gives you another front to defend when open. I am going to investigate this kind of arrangement more with a close 3rd but that is not easy due to how much it pulls your defenses apart. The sheer distance across the map helps allow these shenanigans without being too cheesy -- aka blistering sands. @RFD thanks for noticing the "options", I definitely focused on that once my main/nat was set and I was heavily inspired by your ideas in your map.
If anyone was missed or wants more discussion I'd be happy to.
@Eat: there are actually 2 unbuildable rocks at each of the golds. granted, 2's probably not enough balance-wise, but a Jam's the kinda format where it's the thought that counts. idk, take off imaginary points if you want lol.
Yeah I know, I meant that it's just terran favored to have a gold island in close proximity to float, since they can also very easily medivac some units over to kill the blockers. Zerg and protoss would have to bend over backwards to take that base anywhere near as fast as terran could. Just an observation, no point deduction. I go on a points awarded model. lol
Just wanna throw out there that I love these map jams. Some of the maps gave me some really good inspiration! I really need to try and participate in the next one. Ended up being too busy this time around... but I have an awesome new IRL job to show for it.