|
There were a lot of hacks and editors to SC BW that allowed people to make interesting map features that changed the game (some permanently).
I know that the SC2 galaxy editor has much more potential and there are many many gimmicks to be discovered that could be even more interesting. I would like to compile a list of all those gimmicks and even suggestions for new things to try out in sc2 maps.
I don't think there is a comprehensive list of this anywhere. I can't remember everything, but I will add to this OP whatever I missed that you guys come up with (its helpful to list a map that uses the gimmick as well).
Island/Hybrid Map Specific Gimmicks:
- Mineral walls that mine out later in the game to turn into a land map.
- Destructible walls.
- Strictly island (no building outside bases) map.
- Plateau maps (can build outside bases after drop), and/or low ground is all connected.
- 3-4 start location maps that have at least 2 spots connected by ground, and the remaining being individual island.
- Low count mineral blocks to stop terran CC floating imbalance. (although this would have to be changed to 30+ because of orbital SCV loading and mules)
- Regular land map with Island expansions.
Gimmicks/Map Features:
- Backdoor Expansions.
- Mineral blocks.
- Destructible walls.
- Stacked destructible walls. (need splash units to destroy simultaneously)
- In base Expansions.
- Small mains with small choke outside naturals.
- Long ramps.
- Wide ramps.
- Narrow ramps.
- Long bridges.
- Wide bridges.
- Pattern/doodad cloning/repeating. (aesthetic only)
- Hallucinated walls.
- Neutral high armor/hp unit walls.
- No ramp main.
- LoS Blocker main.
- In base Xel Naga towers. (can be used in conjunction with previous)
- Reverse ramps.
- Creep patterning/Webbing. (Also allows faster spread).
- Neutral creep tumors/creep colonies.
- Neutral buildings. (To help with walling or anti walling)
- Mineral/gas stacking.
- Modified mineral/gas counts.
- Small unit only paths.
- Unbuildable terrain.
- Expansions with siege zones/drop platforms above.
- Low ground mains.
- Reverse style maps.
- Mixed; low and high yield resource bases.
- Neutral Assimilator pathways (Destroy them and the empty geysers create a wall. [BW only?])
- Non edged resources in mains. (Resources in middle of the base instead of against the edge of the map, wall, or cliff)
- Mineral or gas only bases.
- Neutral CC for infesting (BW only)
- Backdoor pathways to nat or main.
- Wide 3rd base on cliff with ramps above nat.
- Neutral cloaked unit walls.
- Pocket island expansion inside main.
- Even level ground on expansion/surrounding with a ditch or narrow wall around. (with or without LoS blocked)
- Far or unnatural nat. (Doesn't cover main)
- Ramped cliff surrounding main.
- Double main. (twice the resources without needing another HQ building)
- Permanent dark swarm.
- Permanent disruption web.
- Permanent forcefield. (can still be removed by massive unit)
- Permanent blinding cloud.
- Permanent time warp.
- Permanent guardian shield.
- Permanent/cycling Vortex.
- Permanent point defense drone.
- C-Rocks to destroy buildings/watch towers (any building or object under 500hp that is immobile, otherwise it does 500 damage and the D-rocks do not appear).
- C-rocks to eliminate geysers or minerals from a map. (See interesting thread here.)
- Domino style C-rocks to close large areas of the map. (all rocks in line take the same damage at the same time)
|
Reminder that the map making community like boring maps
|
Reminder that the tournament organizers like boring maps
|
Reminder that tournament organizers simply like to stick to their old maps rather than changing.
Besides, go for KeSPA. Advantage of proleague format is that a map can be ludicrously imba. It just means mirror matches.
|
|
|
On April 28 2013 21:02 algue wrote:
Reminder that the map making community like boring maps
Proof that you have no idea what's going on in the scene.
|
your Country52797 Posts
great now I'm going to have to make a map with all of those gimmicks
On April 28 2013 21:02 algue wrote:
Reminder that the map making community like boring maps
No we don't
|
Someone should use neutral nydus worms. That shit would be sick.
|
your Country52797 Posts
On April 28 2013 23:02 Zealos wrote:
Someone should use neutral nydus worms. That shit would be sick.
How would that work exactly?
|
On April 29 2013 00:24 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 23:02 Zealos wrote:
Someone should use neutral nydus worms. That shit would be sick. How would that work exactly?
How about a simple teleportation ring instead. Very easy to make.
|
On April 29 2013 00:46 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 00:24 The_Templar wrote:On April 28 2013 23:02 Zealos wrote:
Someone should use neutral nydus worms. That shit would be sick. How would that work exactly? How about a simple teleportation ring instead. Very easy to make.
There was a broodwar map called 'warpgates' which had 4 warpgates in each corner of the map that did that for the diagonal spots. It wasn't popular though.
|
On April 29 2013 00:46 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 00:24 The_Templar wrote:On April 28 2013 23:02 Zealos wrote:
Someone should use neutral nydus worms. That shit would be sick. How would that work exactly? How about a simple teleportation ring instead. Very easy to make.
So Way gates basicly? They were used a little in WC3 but it takes a rather complex map layout to justify it.
Something i have been thinking a little about would be neutral addons. Since they automaticly change ownership when a terran building lands in position it could be used as a boost for terran(In a map layout that would otherwise suck for terran.
Not sure if it would grant any larger benefit or change much but since we are discussing gimmicks i felt like mentioning it.
|
On April 29 2013 05:30 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 00:46 decemberscalm wrote:On April 29 2013 00:24 The_Templar wrote:On April 28 2013 23:02 Zealos wrote:
Someone should use neutral nydus worms. That shit would be sick. How would that work exactly? How about a simple teleportation ring instead. Very easy to make. So Way gates basicly? They were used a little in WC3 but it takes a rather complex map layout to justify it. Something i have been thinking a little about would be neutral addons. Since they automaticly change ownership when a terran building lands in position it could be used as a boost for terran(In a map layout that would otherwise suck for terran. Not sure if it would grant any larger benefit or change much but since we are discussing gimmicks i felt like mentioning it.
Yea, you could have neutral addons in bw as well, it was never used though because there is no way to justify that, its just imbalanced.
|
There were also a number of bw UMS maps that never were used in competitive play (not really sure why, perhaps too complicated). Which simply had custom triggers for melee style maps. There was one that had a black hole in the middle that every 5 minutes or so would start pulling units towards it and they would die. This one was a crappy example, but it's the one that sticks out in my mind the most lol.
You could do other stuff like, every few minutes give units for free if criteria X and Y are met. Or have capture the flag zones where whoever controls more gets increases to gas income or free stuff. There were also a few fun maps where there were alternate objectives to win the game. Gather most resources fastest, king of the hill for X time, all of which also had the regular gameplay elements so that strategy and timing are even more important.
To some these seem silly, but to me it's just like playing the various different versions of poker, or playing magic the gathering with new rules from new sets and cards.
PS-With the galaxy editor people can make custom spells. And these could also be used as permanent modifiers to terrain and maps. Like recreating D webs in sc2
|
On April 29 2013 05:33 MarlieChurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 05:30 Sumadin wrote:On April 29 2013 00:46 decemberscalm wrote:On April 29 2013 00:24 The_Templar wrote:On April 28 2013 23:02 Zealos wrote:
Someone should use neutral nydus worms. That shit would be sick. How would that work exactly? How about a simple teleportation ring instead. Very easy to make. So Way gates basicly? They were used a little in WC3 but it takes a rather complex map layout to justify it. Something i have been thinking a little about would be neutral addons. Since they automaticly change ownership when a terran building lands in position it could be used as a boost for terran(In a map layout that would otherwise suck for terran. Not sure if it would grant any larger benefit or change much but since we are discussing gimmicks i felt like mentioning it. Yea, you could have neutral addons in bw as well, it was never used though because there is no way to justify that, its just imbalanced.
Either imbalanced or pointless depending on position. I was thinking about it while tinkering with the Idea of a Xelnaga Obelisk for a custom mod which would give a different boost to each race. The terran one would be that it empowered a nearby Tech reactor, which sounds neat on paper but once you think deeper about it then you realise that placing production facilities out in the open is completely stupid and sacrificing 200 extra min and a little gas for the same benefit is always preferable.
So yea the only way to somehow balance this while still having it make sence would probably be semi-exposed tech reactors.
|
Are island maps imbalanced in sc2 because of the orbital command center? There are mule drops and scv loading which makes CC floating and mineral blocking ineffectual. Or are there other methods to block this? Perhaps instead of a mineral block, a low hp neutral unit/structure that has 5 armor?
|
Pure island maps are more problematic because the races' aren't completely balanced in the air, not because of CC floating.
For instance, protoss can just go phoenix with range and pretty much shit on any air comp that zerg sends out. Even if the zerg tries to go pure corruptor the toss can mix in some void rays (although phoenix with range still do fine, it just takes a little while to widdle down the corruptors, along with careful micro since they only have +1 range over the corruptors)
|
On April 29 2013 05:52 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Are island maps imbalanced in sc2 because of the orbital command center? There are mule drops and scv loading which makes CC floating and mineral blocking ineffectual. Or are there other methods to block this? Perhaps instead of a mineral block, a low hp neutral unit/structure that has 5 armor?
On April 29 2013 06:09 Fatam wrote:
Pure island maps are more problematic because the races' aren't completely balanced in the air, not because of CC floating.
For instance, protoss can just go phoenix with range and pretty much shit on any air comp that zerg sends out. Even if the zerg tries to go pure corruptor the toss can mix in some void rays (although phoenix with range still do fine, it just takes a little while to widdle down the corruptors, along with careful micro since they only have +1 range over the corruptors)
Well personally i have been thinking about how to balance Island maps alot and this is what i have reached so far.
* On a 4-player island map, terrans have very limited options for early scouting which should in theory limit the terrans limit the terrans ability to go "5 CC expan before Rax fac, into 9 Starport ravens.". Basicly you hit the terrans by forcing them to play in the dark.
* The ideal number of bases on the initial Island should be 2. Less that that screws Zerg too much, but 3 bases eliminates the need for futher expanding beyond the initial island for Protoss.
* The strongest Air-to-Air composition is Viking-Raven, it should be all estimates be impossible to engage that head-on without land support. It is however also one of the least mobile so a way to punish terran futher would be so have massive MASSIVE map bounds. Forget your Xelnaga caverns tutorial, these maps could go beyond the bounds of past giants like Taldarim or Terminus.
* For the above notice you needless to say still need a moderate amought of landspace, even alot of that being empty land without expansions.
* Zergs will hate this map like the plague, it can't be helped through as the ideal map for Zergs would be flat empty terrain and pretty much the futher you go from that the futher they will hate it. Just make sure they can still apply alot of land support.
Since we have very little data on actual island maps in SC2, all of the above "rules" is placed based on estimates so take them with a grain of salt. I have played a little with trying to design a map using the rules but i just don't have the time.
|
On April 29 2013 00:46 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 00:24 The_Templar wrote:On April 28 2013 23:02 Zealos wrote:
Someone should use neutral nydus worms. That shit would be sick. How would that work exactly? How about a simple teleportation ring instead. Very easy to make.
Funny you should say...
If only people were interested in these things.
|
Any gimmick can be made using the SC2 editor (like almost anything you can think of, is probably possible whether through fancy triggers/scripts or through some fancy usage of the data editor).
Personally, I wouldn't mind being able to hire mercenaries like WC3.
Neutral Medivacs (for example) Zerg can hire (to heal all their units, flying units included).
Throw in creep camps too, and you have yourself a map.
|
How about lighting or doodads inducing "difficult" (albeit temporary) visual temperance?
How about water (or other forms) masking the visual reading of ground action?
How about deformation of height that grants higher vision to units (probably flying units)?
How about some cake?
If i may.. I'll rant a bit (because I'm old.. sorry, I suggest you try and sue :^P ) ...
Whether here or on other forums .. mapmakers .. players .. mods .. casuals .. everyone declares high and mighty that they want moOre.. but they don't follow through ..
They (they is impersonal .. naming names would get me in trouble .. hahahahahahhahahahaa) don't really want all those potentially great things.
Lets be real .. people play a game .. and everyone hates it when someone playing with them (be it the "beginner" or worse the "pro") starts changing the rules mid way through ... everyone!
Personnaly I still cry for Black fog .. people say it only concerns "memory" issues .. it is because they can only see up to the end of their own nose ...
Each feature has a field of uses that baffles when you get down to it close enough.. removing anything changes everything!
Case in point: I dream of pro players playing unknown maps (maps have to be cleared by both player's coach for instance prior to the game)...
See my pov .. ? I feel so alone in the crowd it must seem sad...
Don't worry .. I don't mind .. at least I'm not "a" drone but "one" drone!
ty for thread mr charlie Murphy
|
lil emo, I'm not really sure what you are trying to say with that post. Are those suggestions you had just a joke? I don't really follow the purpose of them. From what I gather it would just make spectating harder.
|
Someone like totalbiscuit should make a silly-map-tournament with pros.
It could be fun ^^
They could make a silly-map contest, then silliest maps would be used.
|
Why are tournament organizers not interested in interesting maps? What could we do to change this?
|
|
|
Neutral bunkers would be cool. Like in CnC there are those buildings that you can capture... Just in SC2, it would be quite imbalanced, wouldn't it?
Even if you could put stalkers or roaches into a neutral bunker... those units are beefy to begin with and don't profit half as much from bunkers as marines with their insane dps. Not even to start with zerglings/zealots or that if a stalker can enter a bunker, a tank/immortal should also be capable of doing so, right, which would be very weird. Or a swarm host ... lol
|
found out the other day collapsible rocks can 'destroy' watch towers.
|
On May 04 2013 23:51 a176 wrote:
found out the other day collapsible rocks can 'destroy' watch towers.
Yea, I was wondering about stuff like that. There was that map last season where the corner bases had C-rocks over where your HQ buildings would go. Does it kill the building if you kill it?
|
Rock Tower thread! - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395769
A couple of these things are slightly out of date as blizzard did some stealth changes to rock towers, but it's basically all correct.
It's hilarious to hear a TON of casters talk like rocks falling will always kill units underneath, when the only times it will kill units is when they are immobile.. otherwise it will just push them to the side. IIRC there was a game where some burrowed widow mines got killed by falling rocks, so everyone falsely extrapolated it.
|
And how about Black Fog as a "gimmick" ?
(thank you someone for such unsurpassed "opening" wording)
Rants/discussion/unexplored about this shroud:+ Show Spoiler +
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And how about a unit that would create this black fog (one different spell per race of course)?....? Does that not sound like something aWesOme?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So.. to sum up .. dear op ..I'm always totally dead serious .. this strengthened by having done all those experiments into maps.. I feel all these warrant discussion and trolling galore ...
Why ?.. Did you not read my handle ? (no aggression or offense meant .. I'm just always honest.. we "on the internets" .. so it should be so).. so yes!! I am emotionally bound while typing these words!!!
Thank you for wording, posting and otherwise reminding people about people who's certain posts I liked reading very much.+ Show Spoiler +
Necro+ Show Spoiler +for the win!!! I dare you ALL.. i double dare you, triple, quad.. you get it i think.. mmmm do post all your maps in tlmc2 first :^P .. mmm should go spike torte .. he didn't pick up on the speech impetement s hit..(?!!) .. + Show Spoiler +neither did temp' .. + Show Spoiler +wonder if lurk her B thinks he a rubik's cube ...???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Irrelevant thread list ps: + Show Spoiler +
just was in the linking mood :^p
|
On May 06 2013 14:35 Fatam wrote:Rock Tower thread! - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395769A couple of these things are slightly out of date as blizzard did some stealth changes to rock towers, but it's basically all correct. It's hilarious to hear a TON of casters talk like rocks falling will always kill units underneath, when the only times it will kill units is when they are immobile.. otherwise it will just push them to the side. IIRC there was a game where some burrowed widow mines got killed by falling rocks, so everyone falsely extrapolated it.
Very interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing this. The Rocks killing resources could be a great thing to add to expansions in order to deal a serious blow to an opponents economy.
I just envisioned a map where perhaps the nat or 3rd base has an abundance of minerals and/or an extra geyser. So the goal of the early to mid game is to destroy the opponents c-rocks and vise versa. Whatever base you apply this idea to, it can extend/delay that period of the game development! In theory you can apply it to every base and constantly be in a state of early/mid game attacks and timings until 4 or more bases are captured. And since there C-rock domino also exists, you could essentially place the target rock very far out of range of base defenses in order to balance it.
You could also have a mineral wall block with C-rocks next to it. And have 2 ways to clear the path. Mine the minerals away, or drop the c-rocks on them and then kill the d-rocks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
