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lefix
Germany1082 Posts
Also, noone outside the mapmaking community really cares about the 10th+ placed maps, no matter how well they were made. The first 1-2 maps may or may not go places, the others will be forgotten in less than a week. TLDR; I am fine with TLMC not being mapmaking school, but a place to promote the very best maps. | ||
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Incubus1993
Canada140 Posts
On May 16 2013 15:12 lefix wrote: TLDR; lol they'd have to be pretty incompetent to think your post is so long you need a tldr | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On May 16 2013 15:12 lefix wrote: There's people here discussing maps here 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. How much more learning opportunity does one really need? To me TLMC2 is rather an opportunity to show what you have learned in all that time. Also, noone outside the mapmaking community really cares about the 10th+ placed maps, no matter how well they were made. The first 1-2 maps may or may not go places, the others will be forgotten in less than a week. TLDR; I am fine with TLMC not being mapmaking school, but a place to promote the very best maps. +1 | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On May 16 2013 15:12 lefix wrote: There's people here discussing maps here 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. How much more learning opportunity does one really need? To me TLMC2 is rather an opportunity to show what you have learned in all that time. Also, noone outside the mapmaking community really cares about the 10th+ placed maps, no matter how well they were made. The first 1-2 maps may or may not go places, the others will be forgotten in less than a week. TLDR; I am fine with TLMC not being mapmaking school, but a place to promote the very best maps. I have to agree with this completely. If the goal is improving one's skill and knowledge of SC2 mapmaking, there are plenty of resources in TL alone that are readily available to new mapmakers. Probably the biggest one of these is the Work In Progress Melee Maps thread, where people can post screenshots of their map WIPs and get feedback from plenty of people, including those who are in map teams. Beyond that, we have events like Map Jam & Challenge for people to jump in on and get involved in the mapmaking community. So on and so forth. (EDIT: Can't forget the mother of all resource threads, the Mapper's Index.) I don't see TLMC's role as being a feedback resource for novice mapmakers, nor do I see why it should be. | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On May 17 2013 06:30 monitor wrote: Nobody that comments in the custom map section really knows what they're talking about... which is why hearing thoughts from TLO, Morrow, and Monk would be nice. I disagree. I'm a masters player and have a good understanding of the game. Lots of map makers, especially the really good ones are high level. Quote what one person said, because most mapmakers are smart. | ||
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Timetwister22
United States538 Posts
On May 20 2013 08:32 DilemaH wrote: I disagree. I'm a masters player and have a good understanding of the game. Lots of map makers, especially the really good ones are high level. Quote what one person said, because most mapmakers are smart. I would agree with this if we're talking about standard maps, or map ideas we have seen in the past and know have worked. You don't really need a TLO, Morrow, or Monk to say if such a map will play well initially. As I think most masters and diamond level players could say such. As far as long term go, pros might have a better understanding, but quite frankly play testing is what's really needed to show such. Now, if we're talking something experimental such and mineral blocks, low ground mains, etc ....then yeah I'd like to hear from TLO, Morrow, or Monk for the initial state of the map. Though, would like to say that no matter what kind of map, I'd rather have pros judge than random masters players for a variety of reasons. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
The second is whether or not the "why", if an explanation is provided, is anything more than what happens to be the case right now in the current metagame and skill level. Some things are just not that simple and this is that mystery area where a map has to be taken on faith despite apparent flaws. What I'm getting at is one person's opinion can rarely do all of that. Playtesting demonstrates problems with maps but you are always left with the void of "how can I make this work?" In that department, mapmakers are generally the most reliable person to turn to, because they spend so much time playing with map ideas. That doesn't mean they'll deliver an answer every time that works, or that others couldn't have come up with a good answer. It just means on the whole they're useful at what they do -- make maps. The best case I can think of is designers working in close communication with players (pros) to identify problems and craft adjustments leveraging the best attributes of both parties: facility with design options and depth of experience with potential designs. I doubt the communication required to make such an arrangement useful is possible unless it involves people already predisposed to understand each other unusually well. Anyway, any and all feedback is always good because you can never get enough. Feedback from someone like Morrow who plays at a very high level and who also dabbles in mapmaking would be particularly interesting, because I imagine it would be a bridge between the two halves of map analysis, the hypothetical and the experiential. And again, much of this is way beyond the kind of tips that would help newer mapmakers with good ideas that have holes. Or rather, you don't need an elite source of feedback to guide learning. The best thing for that is discussion. The only way to build better understanding is over time with lots of input. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
Pros are hardly ever right when predicting anything SC2-related, whether it be how the metagame will evolve (lol at how often they are wrong about this) or how a map will play. For maps, history has shown us that the only times anyone (pro, mapper, or amateur player) can predict something reliably is when it involves incredibly simple map features.. such as a lot of people knowing ahead-of-time that Metropolis would be turtle-friendly. Once you introduce more complex map features, it's actually anyone's guess and the only way to really know is through playtesting. The problem then - there's currently many more complex maps/map features that need to be tested vs. the amount of people willing to test. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
As for learning to improve from good to excellent, well you don't need progamers to advise you on those things  | ||
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Timmay
United States112 Posts
TPW Rocky Waste ESV Insidious DF Yeonsu Crux Frost TPW Proving Grounds TPW Osiris ESV Phoenix Cluster TPW Phantasm Habitation Station | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 20 2013 18:13 Timmay wrote: These are my predictions for the top maps: TPW Rocky Waste ESV Insidious DF Yeonsu Crux Frost TPW Proving Grounds TPW Osiris ESV Phoenix Cluster TPW Phantasm Habitation Station 4/9 Also, after the results are announced, I'll be glad to give comments to anyone who PMs me. I was very happy with the maps that were eventually picked, but there were also quite a few that were very close. | ||
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eTcetRa
Australia822 Posts
On May 20 2013 18:13 Timmay wrote: These are my predictions for the top maps: TPW Rocky Waste ESV Insidious DF Yeonsu Crux Frost TPW Proving Grounds TPW Osiris ESV Phoenix Cluster TPW Phantasm Habitation Station I hope Rocky Waste and Frost are in the winning lot. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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chindy
82 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On May 21 2013 03:36 monk wrote: Btw, I got more requests for feedback than expected, so I'll try to reply to all the rest of them by tomorrow. I haven't gotten a reply ;_; | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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