EPTOn May 15 2013 05:42 R3mnant wrote:
2v2 Judgement Day
Forgot to post my 2v2 map
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rSf3IaT.jpg)
2v2 Judgement Day
Forgot to post my 2v2 map
Lol you know Ragoo is a judge?
TeamLiquid Mapping Contest #2 - Page 24
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monitor
United States2403 Posts
Lol you know Ragoo is a judge? | ||
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ScorpSCII
Denmark499 Posts
On May 15 2013 05:45 Barrin wrote: Even organizer decided early in the private discussion that he doesn't plan on naming these "top 10 maps or so". Insisting that he did and elaborating on why he should (peer-review validity; educational posterity) is partly why I don't have access anymore, I think. Can you think of a reason other than brevity (what a small reason) why a competition wouldn't want to reveal runner-up's? I assume it's to minimize uproar in case people don't agree with the placings. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
On May 15 2013 06:11 ScorpSCII wrote: I assume it's to minimize uproar in case people don't agree with the placings. Out of all the maps submitted, making the top 10 would be really cool for maps and mapmakers. If you were 4th, it would suck if they only showed the top 3 maps. hmm.... I guess we will just have to see what actually happens. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
Maybe I'm a little confused on how it works, so someone can clarify, but doesn't the public help determine the winner via voting? How are they going to hide the top 10 if the public has to vote on the top 10 lol | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
On May 15 2013 05:42 R3mnant wrote: 2v2 Judgement Day Forgot to post my 2v2 map you mean the map where the original thread got deleted because you plagiarized it? | ||
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Redrot
United States446 Posts
Then again, I'm pretty sure this has been said a couple posts above me. About the uproar incident, there is always that no matter what, I believe that as long as any results are displayed, there will be uproar. However, the judges are good, and I think most people will trust them. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On May 15 2013 07:33 monk wrote: From my understanding, the "top 8 or so" maps will be revealed and playtested on in TLOpens. That sounds awesome. Looking forward to seeing the result of the judges' hard work.  | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
On May 15 2013 07:25 Redrot wrote: I remember that when I used to play trackmania and we had mapping contests, there would sometimes be over 100 maps, but each judge would still be recommended to comment on each one. If detailed results were posted for TLMC2, that would be fantastic, I'm sure plenty of people want to learn what they can improve on and what they could do better. It's simply impossible for me as a judge to write a useful comment on every single map. 70% of the maps I just dismiss for no other reason than generally bad execution/layout or because it's boring and don't write down any specific reasons. That said, if after the competition ends someone wants to know why his map didn't make it, write me a PM and I will try to give you some meaningful lines of feedback. | ||
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Redrot
United States446 Posts
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RFDaemoniac
United States544 Posts
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On May 15 2013 07:06 Barrin wrote: Is that really what would happen though? I believe both lefix and samro were arguing against me with the stance that people (specifically a good map's maker) would definitely complain if they don't agree with the placings, and that I shouldn't worry about it now because IF there is to be a problem then they will complain at least as much then. Wait, are you saying lefix and samro, both of whom I believed entered into the contest, were involved in private discussions about how the contest would be run? | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 15 2013 13:23 FlyingBeer wrote: Wait, are you saying lefix and samro, both of whom I believed entered into the contest, were involved in private discussions about how the contest would be run? Yes, feedback from mappers (such as lefix and samro) was taken into consideration when planning the tournament. This is a tournament aiming to promote mappers and mapping and I believe the people who know best about this are the mappers themselves. The discussion Barrin is referencing took place in the days leading up to the announcement. On May 15 2013 07:25 Redrot wrote: I remember that when I used to play trackmania and we had mapping contests, there would sometimes be over 100 maps, but each judge would still be recommended to comment on each one. If detailed results were posted for TLMC2, that would be fantastic, I'm sure plenty of people want to learn what they can improve on and what they could do better. Then again, I'm pretty sure this has been said a couple posts above me. About the uproar incident, there is always that no matter what, I believe that as long as any results are displayed, there will be uproar. However, the judges are good, and I think most people will trust them. As great as it would be to give feedback on every map entered, it's simply not practical. We have progamers judging this contest who are involved in tournaments - TLO in particular was playing his WCS group A games last night. It is unrealistic to expect that feedback on every map can be provided by them within a reasonable time frame. As such I won't make any promises to the level of feedback provided after the contest results are announced, it is possible that some of the judges want to give more feedback though. | ||
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monitor
United States2403 Posts
On May 15 2013 13:44 Plexa wrote: Yes, feedback from mappers (such as lefix and samro) was taken into consideration when planning the tournament. This is a tournament aiming to promote mappers and mapping and I believe the people who know best about this are the mappers themselves. The discussion Barrin is referencing took place in the days leading up to the announcement. No you see, it is a conspiracy! Samro and lefix rigged the contest so they are allowed to enter!!!\ On the topic of map feedback/honorable mentions: I always appreciate it when judges post their thoughts on maps, even if I'm not submitting or I lost the competition. In past MotMs I have tried to post my thoughts. Nightmarjoo did a fantastic job giving feedback. So for TLMC, of course I would love feedback from the judges. On the flip side, we can't demand them to post everything because they likely didn't write anything down for most maps. It takes forever to make writeups that are intelligent haha... Any that the judges can provide, however, would be greatly appreciated. And if there are maps that scored well, aka honorable mentions, I think telling the public would be cool. + Show Spoiler + But either way I don't care that much, mapmaking is a small portion of my life that doesn't have a huge effect on anybody. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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MarcusRife
343 Posts
On May 16 2013 04:23 Barrin wrote: Exactly; we're not just trying to highlight the best maps now, we're also trying to help make future maps become better. Well, me at least. Comparing/contrasting the maps that didn't *quite* make it (there's usually a bunch of these) to the maps that did make it (and then again to whatever map(s) you made) is indeed one of the best opportunities for a learning exercise. And then discussing them is a good way to gain other's perspectives and to know where the general consensus lies on certain things. If enough people are interested in this we can create a thread and do it ourselves. Post our maps that didn't quite make it and we can discuss them. Barrin, if you feel this strongly about it you can take the initiative yourself. As stated earlier giving good feedback is a lot of work. I find that getting people to give good feedback is hard. I don't think that you can place the blame on TLMC for not providing feedback. It is really a failing of the community. I'm not saying the reasons for which are not legitimate, we have other things in life that require our time. | ||
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Incubus1993
Canada140 Posts
Even if it isn't practical to have that much reviewing if the judges and/or peer mappers made the effort it would go a really long way in improving the quality of maps. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On May 16 2013 13:51 Barrin wrote: I'm not participating in this competition, mostly just trying to be of service as a disinterested third party. But I'm way ahead of you anyway. During MotM I gave a bunch of feedback on dozens of maps that didn't quite make it on multiple months that I judged and I responded to dozens of people asking about their didn't-quite-make-it maps. Even when I wasn't judging I threw in a list of predictions with explanations at least once. Leading up to the last TLMC [not judge] I gave a bunch of feedback on maps to be entered (only a dozen or so this time), and I made an extensive write-up on each of the winners. I've taken my share of initiative already! And of course I have other things to care about. But yes giving feedback on significant maps entered into this competition is on my list fwiw. qft Honestly, while I agree with the spirit of the request for feedback, it's unreasonable for an event like this. First, as already mentioned, the volume of maps to provide comments on is huge, and some (or all) of the judges couldn't possibly give useful feedback for every map. Second, a lot of the mappers that stand to benefit most from judge feedback are new mappers. This contest might be the first time they've publicly showcased a map. What's the best thing for new mappers to do? Make more maps. Hearing about why their first map is bad... is just one item out of a huge list of things they need to learn more about, that that particular map didn't evince. We all went through this. People with passion will persevere even without good feedback. I wish we could support everyone to stoke that passion, but you can't ask others to do it on your behalf. Moreover, what is a few people's map feedback worth? I mean I like TLO and ragoo and respect their knowledge, but is their opinion worth more than anyone else here who could give good feedback? Their position as judges is really only relevant insofar as they could tell you what a shortlist map had that yours didn't, which nonjudges could not illuminate as well perhaps. If people want feedback on their maps, ... oh wait that's all of us all the time. XD | ||
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