EPT[M] (2) "Before I sleep" - Page 3
| Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games |
|
Sated
England4983 Posts
| ||
|
SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On February 04 2013 16:55 Sated wrote: Oh please, link me a single recent PvZ game that didn't start with a forge FE. I'm pretty sure if you ported those protoss players to XNC they wouldn't forge FE.I still tailor my builds to the type of map and the build that I expect my opponent is likely/unlikely to use. Certain maps are good for pressure as Protoss for different reasons in different match-ups, and some are better for turtling in different match-ups. If you're as "good" as you claim to be, you'd realise that... Making a bad map because you want it to have its own meta is silly. People just won't play the map, because they don't want to have to make time for it. You barely can get around forge FE any more these days, maps force it because a single spine stops any and all pressure. | ||
|
moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
On February 04 2013 09:35 EatThePath wrote: Objectively bad map: 64x64 flat ground with starting locations within creep of each other. Games that you play on ladder have little bearing on whether a map is good or not. OMG just imagining the meta on such kind of map is awesome, basically you don't want to attack, since than the opponent might have an extra drone a bit later, so this would lead that both will drone up until they saturate, or maybe before that time you will get a few drones to try and reduce the enemy mining time. I would love to see decent players seriously try to figure such a map out  Of course it would get boring fast, but 2-3 games on it should be really unique and cool. | ||
|
Unsane
Canada170 Posts
On February 04 2013 16:55 Sated wrote: I still tailor my builds to the type of map and the build that I expect my opponent is likely/unlikely to use. Certain maps are good for pressure as Protoss for different reasons in different match-ups, and some are better for turtling in different match-ups. If you're as "good" as you claim to be, you'd realise that... Making a bad map because you want it to have its own meta is silly. People just won't play the map, because they don't want to have to make time for it. Imagine if players needed more than one build. | ||
|
EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On February 04 2013 17:06 moskonia wrote: OMG just imagining the meta on such kind of map is awesome, basically you don't want to attack, since than the opponent might have an extra drone a bit later, so this would lead that both will drone up until they saturate, or maybe before that time you will get a few drones to try and reduce the enemy mining time. I would love to see decent players seriously try to figure such a map out Of course it would get boring fast, but 2-3 games on it should be really unique and cool.But ZvT and ZvP would be completely imba. | ||
|
Drake Merrwin
Canada130 Posts
That being said it's a Daybreak clo- actually it's an Abyssal City clone. =( It's uncanny. Yeah, the centre, chokes, and routs are different but I don't think it's different enough. =( It's enough to be a mod of a map but a different map in total would be up to debate. | ||
|
SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On February 05 2013 04:59 Drake Merrwin wrote: Son, this is a hots map, you know that FFE happens on Howling peak in Hots right? The assertion that you cannot nexus wall in HotS is bull.shit because it happens. It's also bullshit in Wings because it happened all the time on Antiga and many people choose to nexus wall even on Ohana for stylistic reasons.Sigh. I'm going to ignore your blatant ignorance of FFE (from why it's better to why it is not the reason PvZ is awful) to your poor understanding as to why Protoss match ups are a mess in general, and even why half bases do the opposite of what you want them to do, simply for the sake of discussion. Basically, I'm going to assume that you can FFE and hold a third in PvZ on this map. If you seriously think nexus walls aren't viable in either game then you don't understand FFE yourself. That being said it's a Daybreak clo- actually it's an Abyssal City clone. =( It's uncanny. Yeah, the centre, chokes, and routs are different but I don't think it's different enough. =( It's enough to be a mod of a map but a different map in total would be up to debate. While it isn't as unusual in its topology as some of the maps I made with half inbase naturals or two different naturals or whatever. It's not a daybreak clone because it doesn't give you a single choke to your third that is 2-3 forcefields wide. It gives you no 1 forcefield wide chokes to your half third.Natural design does look a bit like Abyssal City though, except that Abyssal City again uses that single choke while I opted for many smaller chokes which change the dynamic. | ||
|
Unsane
Canada170 Posts
On February 05 2013 04:59 Drake Merrwin wrote: Sigh. I'm going to ignore your blatant ignorance of FFE (from why it's better to why it is not the reason PvZ is awful) to your poor understanding as to why Protoss match ups are a mess in general, and even why half bases do the opposite of what you want them to do, simply for the sake of discussion. Basically, I'm going to assume that you can FFE and hold a third in PvZ on this map. That being said it's a Daybreak clo- actually it's an Abyssal City clone. =( It's uncanny. Yeah, the centre, chokes, and routs are different but I don't think it's different enough. =( It's enough to be a mod of a map but a different map in total would be up to debate. While the broad layout may be fairly similar to another map (im willing to bet almost every map has a 'sister' map), the engagements themselves should look quite different. The 'finer' layout is very different. The XNTs hold more purpose than to simply look at the center of the map. The half nodes toward the middle of the map are actually in the middle of the map, not hugged up against the main. EDIT: instantly, a huge difference id see in PvZ is an immortal all in would need to expend twice the FFs to push into the nat and that strat needs to eat shit and die. | ||
|
SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
Apart from that the natural design does look a bit like Abyssal in some way. Apart from that the only resemblance it has to Abyssal is the amount of bases, like that's literally the only other thing. | ||
|
Unsane
Canada170 Posts
On February 05 2013 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote: Sentry/immortal all in is pretty dead in HotS. Apart from that the natural design does look a bit like Abyssal in some way. Apart from that the only resemblance it has to Abyssal is the amount of bases, like that's literally the only other thing. Touche, watching too much WOL pro stuff lately where immortal allin is still a very large threat. (even though i cant specifically recall a game where its been used recently). You have no reason to worry about it looking like abyssal. Just from the overview pictures, Abyssal's playable area looks to be half as small as this one's. If you were to double or halve any map's proportions you'd have an entirely different map, imagine even steppes of war at double the size (excluding ofc main ramp and maybe nat ramp), it'd be a completely different map. I can recall IdrA doing a hydra-spine push on steppes with ovie creep spread(i THINK in beta), now imagine that same push on something like taldarim (assuming cross spawns, or any other map), wouldn't work. | ||
|
SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
| ||
|
moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
On February 05 2013 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote: Sentry/immortal all in is pretty dead in HotS. Hmm...Did Blizzard change anything that I did not hear of? Because there are no new ways to counter the Immortal Sentry all in for all I know. Just because it might not be used, does not mean its not usable. | ||
|
SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
You just almost never see it any more and the few times I saw it I beat it without much preparation because in HotS, at least for me. Roach/hydra into roach/hydra viper is very common and roach hydra just beats it. The addition of the viper makes a roach/hydra midgame army more viable because roach/hydra/viper works a lot better than roach/hydra/corruptor versus colossi to the point that I'm seeing a lot of Protoss players go more zealot/ht like styles versus Zerg now because vipers are pretty useless against that and templar can feedback them anyway. Apart from that the major hindrance to zealot/ht in Pvz has always been fungal being brutal on melee units but infestors are some-what out of use now in HotS. | ||
|
SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
![[image loading]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DVGoAPUY4fQ/URJs1OccfnI/AAAAAAAABHo/CFH57VJlbrA/s912/before%2520I%2520sleep%2520stratmap.jpg) Which is honestly pretty cool. Like how a lot of Terrans on CK nowadays take the other base as their fourth as a staging point to attack Z's fourth. I like it when people really think about which expos to take. | ||
|
moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
), and so it seemed like a horrible map from the overview to me, but after looking at it again while trying not to have a prejudice opinion on it, I think it could be play out really nice, but the only thing I hope you reconsider is the amount of expansion, it is simply too low. Having a low amount of bases does not add options, while it removes possible lategame option. To see a game where all the bases are mined out is pretty bummer, unless its like a 1 hour game or so. I understand why you made the map to have few bases, but I think that having at least one more base would make for better games that reach the lategame. I might not have seen it in the thread, but I wonder if anyone suggested making the half natural a full base and than adding a half base (I think a proper location for one would be between the red 3 and 5 bases), this would make it possible to get to the lategame while still not allowing to turtle too easily. I see no real reason for the 3 red to be a half base, since its very open and not in a forward position.. I personally don't really mind the hard FFE, since I barely do it anymore, but i hope its still possible to do it, because removing options is bad. I think people forget that this is HotS, and therefore it should still be pretty easy to defend a roach ling all in, although a mass of early slow or speed lings should be pretty hard to stop (since it hard to wall). If you want I would love to have a game on the map, just join the Melee Mapmakers group's chat and we can play. | ||
|
nomyx
United States2205 Posts
On February 04 2013 17:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: Oh please, link me a single recent PvZ game that didn't start with a forge FE. I'm pretty sure if you ported those protoss players to XNC they wouldn't forge FE. You barely can get around forge FE any more these days, maps force it because a single spine stops any and all pressure. Lure vs Jaedong game 1 on Bel'shir Vestige and game 2 on Whirlwind. Lure opens with Gate-Core-Nexus as opposed to FFE. He opened with the Gate-Core-Nexus build as opposed to FFE because he knew the long rush distances would hinder Jaedong from doing a roach/ling attack (something that can be hard to hold as a Protoss, especially if they do a 2-base version of this). | ||
|
DreadLocK
Canada49 Posts
| ||
|
Fatam
1986 Posts
| ||
|
SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
| ||
|
Unsane
Canada170 Posts
On February 07 2013 12:54 DreadLocK wrote: Abyssal City much lol This idea has already been brought up and discussed in this thread. | ||
| ||
