|
On December 20 2012 05:18 nerak wrote:
I don't believe an amateur team and a handful of volunteer testers can make a better job than people who have been working on this game for almost 10 years, more than 40 hours a week, who have tens of paid testers and thousands of volunteer testers. I don't see they achieving that.
What I see is OneGoal showing all the organizational and sheer power, all the creativity and entrepeneurship of the community. Maybe, after months or years, they can influence a thought on Blizzard design team. The most likely is that they are the pioneers of making the SC2 custom and arcade scene a little more like what we had in BW and War3.
I fully support the innitiative as I have supported FRB. I believe this is going to be great. I believe it is things like this that makes games memorable. I just don't believe they have better insight or ability as SC2 designers than the team who created SC2.
Yes the handful of volunteers shouldn't be capable of that. But look at the facts; Blizzard has failed horibly with sc2 from a desing perspective. All the units they have changed have turned out horrible (fungal, forcefields, warpgate, collosus etc.). In a competitive environemnt the current sc2 team of blizzard would have been fired a long time ago. (as they are insanely incompetent). But due to the monpoly status of Blizzard in the RTS genre they can afford to be sloppy.
Onegoal is exactly what we need. Competent and logical thinking lovers of competitive rts who challenge Starcraft 2 and from their reasoning they seem to be capable of producing a better designed game than blizzard.
|
Is this map live yet? What do i search for to find it?
|
On December 20 2012 06:09 Jmanthedragonguy wrote:
Is this map live yet? What do i search for to find it?
Have you tried searching "OneGoal"? LOL!
It's on WoL.
|
This map should now be live on the NA WoL arcade as OneGoal on Cloud Kingdom. EU client should have access soon.
|
Really looking forward to testing this with a friend when it hits EU. I really like the initiative but would strongly encourage you to be as conservative and simplistic as possible with the changes. Although I have not had time to test it yet some changes such as the thor and dt seem a little over the top. Anyways good job:D
|
On December 20 2012 05:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 05:18 nerak wrote:
I don't believe an amateur team and a handful of volunteer testers can make a better job than people who have been working on this game for almost 10 years, more than 40 hours a week, who have tens of paid testers and thousands of volunteer testers. I don't see they achieving that.
What I see is OneGoal showing all the organizational and sheer power, all the creativity and entrepeneurship of the community. Maybe, after months or years, they can influence a thought on Blizzard design team. The most likely is that they are the pioneers of making the SC2 custom and arcade scene a little more like what we had in BW and War3.
I fully support the innitiative as I have supported FRB. I believe this is going to be great. I believe it is things like this that makes games memorable. I just don't believe they have better insight or ability as SC2 designers than the team who created SC2. Yes the handful of volunteers shouldn't be capable of that. But look at the facts; Blizzard has failed horibly with sc2 from a desing perspective. All the units they have changed have turned out horrible (fungal, forcefields, warpgate, collosus etc.). In a competitive environemnt the current sc2 team of blizzard would have been fired a long time ago. (as they are insanely incompetent). But due to the monpoly status of Blizzard in the RTS genre they can afford to be sloppy. Onegoal is exactly what we need. Competent and logical thinking lovers of competitive rts who challenge Starcraft 2 and from their reasoning they seem to be capable of producing a better designed game than blizzard.
It's very easy to iterate on someone else's work.
Much harder to create for yourself.
If I were to write a paper structured like OneGoal I'd have to add a formal acknowledgement to Blizzard for their original design - that's how big a rip off it would be.
|
On December 19 2012 04:03 StaraCroft wrote:@VERSATILE
I approve ^___^
|
On December 20 2012 08:13 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 05:22 Hider wrote:On December 20 2012 05:18 nerak wrote:
I don't believe an amateur team and a handful of volunteer testers can make a better job than people who have been working on this game for almost 10 years, more than 40 hours a week, who have tens of paid testers and thousands of volunteer testers. I don't see they achieving that.
What I see is OneGoal showing all the organizational and sheer power, all the creativity and entrepeneurship of the community. Maybe, after months or years, they can influence a thought on Blizzard design team. The most likely is that they are the pioneers of making the SC2 custom and arcade scene a little more like what we had in BW and War3.
I fully support the innitiative as I have supported FRB. I believe this is going to be great. I believe it is things like this that makes games memorable. I just don't believe they have better insight or ability as SC2 designers than the team who created SC2. Yes the handful of volunteers shouldn't be capable of that. But look at the facts; Blizzard has failed horibly with sc2 from a desing perspective. All the units they have changed have turned out horrible (fungal, forcefields, warpgate, collosus etc.). In a competitive environemnt the current sc2 team of blizzard would have been fired a long time ago. (as they are insanely incompetent). But due to the monpoly status of Blizzard in the RTS genre they can afford to be sloppy. Onegoal is exactly what we need. Competent and logical thinking lovers of competitive rts who challenge Starcraft 2 and from their reasoning they seem to be capable of producing a better designed game than blizzard. It's very easy to iterate on someone else's work. Much harder to create for yourself. If I were to write a paper structured like OneGoal I'd have to add a formal acknowledgement to Blizzard for their original design - that's how big a rip off it would be.
The original design is the guys behind BW. Not the guys behind sc2.
|
Was a lot of fun playing today LaLush. Good games! :D
When will the next update be out so I can mech all day every day?
|
We are crunching designs to get some better AA on the factory. As blizzard has expressed, they don't want to return to the Goliath, so we're crunching out other designs. Besides, we may be able to create a better unit for SC2 than the Goliath, something that is much more than an AA babysitter for tanks.
For those who say the changes are too big, I understand what you mean. We will be producing a podcast that explains why we think the game needed a paradigm shift (the changes to warpgate and force field dynamics, for instance) rather than just some tweaks and how we came to that conclusion.
For now, I'm off to work on the next podcast!
Sorry I cannot be more active in the thread everybody, the injury limits my keyboard use, so it's mostly going to OneGoal development stuff, rather than player interaction. Fortunately, Top and Dylan (ItWhoSpeaks) are active!
|
On December 20 2012 09:20 FoxyMayhem wrote:
We are crunching designs to get some better AA on the factory. As blizzard has expressed, they don't want to return to the Goliath, so we're crunching out other designs. Besides, we may be able to create a better unit for SC2 than the Goliath, something that is much more than an AA babysitter for tanks.
For those who say the changes are too big, I understand what you mean. We will be producing a podcast that explains why we think the game needed a paradigm shift (the changes to warpgate and force field dynamics, for instance) rather than just some tweaks and how we came to that conclusion.
For now, I'm off to work on the next podcast!
Sorry I cannot be more active in the thread everybody, the injury limits my keyboard use, so it's mostly going to OneGoal development stuff, rather than player interaction. Fortunately, Top and Dylan (ItWhoSpeaks) are active!
When can we expect the new update for the mod?
|
If you mean the one that offers a better AA solution for mech, the answer is in the next few days. The team has been hammering out a unique concept that will actually offer more than the Goliath or Jotun to address these issues, especially offering mech a better answer to broodlords and the new carrier. We'll see if it lives up to that in testing.
|
On December 20 2012 10:14 FoxyMayhem wrote:
If you mean the one that offers a better AA solution for mech, the answer is in the next few days. The team has been hammering out a unique concept that will actually offer more than the Goliath or Jotun to address these issues, especially offering mech a better answer to broodlords and the new carrier. We'll see if it lives up to that in testing.
Vikings do just fine against both of those but when it comes to mutalisks, mech just dies.
|
Ah yes, that is true. We have several models we are investigating, the latest being vikings having a higher attack speed and bonus damage to light, rather than armored, and then giving the factory a railgun unit that deals long range, hard hitting, slow attacks with bonus to armor. This allows vikings to deal better with phoenix and mutalisks, and changes their role to a soft but still viable counter versus colossus, broodlords, and carriers. This could slow down fights and improve the viability of teir 3 aircraft for T and P vs T.
In turn, the railgun unit becomes the go-to for efficiently bringing down high priority targets, but has its own set of drawbacks and versatility that keep it from being simply a hard counter GtA.
We're still not sure if this is a good idea though, viking large target air-to-air dominance has been a key part of WoL design. We're not afraid to change it if the benefits are worth it, but we're not convinced it is yet. This also does not offer a splash solution, and increasing the fire rate offers less opportunity to micro (though if we do implement moving shot, this is much less of a valid concern).
The other solutions we are juggling are more typical, GtA splash options and leaving the Viking untouched.
|
I think a smart way to do Terran anti-air is to have a rapid fire flak type GtA weapon available from the Factory that is intended to counter numerous Light air units. Rapid fire with low damage per shot is much more consistent in performance than splash damage, and will be weaker against units with armor (especially stacked). I'm thinking a 3 damage weapon firing once per 0.2 seconds, or something of that type generally. Put this flak gun on a small unit, say 2 supply (not the Thor) so they can be built or destroyed in smaller increments, and spread to create an effective air defense over a base.
Then have the Viking serve its existing role as long range anti-capital AA. I also think that the single target Seeker Missile idea might even be reworked and moved to the Viking with research required to use the ability. Each Viking might keep its own count of much lower-damage missiles (say, two) and replenish them slowly. The trick is to make these missiles powerful, and too valuable to use on small units or workers, even on a unit which is semi-massable like the Viking. I propose a missile that deals 35 (+35 Armored) single target damage at range 12, with a four second delay during which the target can leave range or vision to fizzle the spell.
Also, if you want to making Vikings better against Light units, how about allowing them to use their Gatling Cannon weapon at short range in the sky, while moving (cannot use simultaneously with missiles)? In my opinion the flying combat units should be more finesse-based dogfighters across the board, such as giving Phoenixes an energy-costing linear splash anti-air spell. Mutalisks can be the most "normal" with their regeneration and bouncing glaive.
Then the Raven can have an ability that gives it functionality other than countering Broodlords (which is the Viking's job). I also want to comment that I somewhat dislike the Raven's Recovery Drone ability. Although I respect the micro potential of being able to move sieged tanks with a friendly-only Abduct, it just feels... wrong to do so. There are all kinds of abilities the Raven might have instead.
I am a huge fan of 99% of your changes though, I just wanted to give some thoughts.
|
Thanks for pitching ideas. If you'd like me to break down how it looks under the scrutiny of our current criteria, I can, but if you're just throwing ideas our way, thanks!
|
I love your guys ideas, but the huge problem here is that MOD's in sc2 are very hard to get going because no matter how great your changes are you cannot change the piece of shit that is the arcade to get people to actually play the game is the major problem.
|
Smoke: it is certainly a challenge. I don't expect front page, but with quality players there is a chance we can still get the work done that we need to do to present our proposals to Blizzard.
MNDakota: with a cheaper raven, what do you think of the viability of defending versus muta using vikings and PDD? Your opinion, and if you want to try it, I'd love to see a pair of replays.
|
Considering that Vikings share upgrades with Factory units in OneGoal I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to address the Mutalisk anti-air issue by allowing the Viking Chain guns to fire at air units and adjust their damage so they are more effective vs light. (Instead of 12 flat could be 6 (+2 vs Light) x2)
That allows for greater flexibility with the unit and makes it so that it can be a viable anti-light and anti-armored air unit without being able to do both at once.
That's my suggestion anyway, the idea could force a bit of a strange dynamic between Phoenixes and Vikings also but I don't think it'd be a real negative one, Ground Mode Vikings being lifted by Phoenixes could be really humorous. This would also make Vikings slightly more powerful vs light combat units and workers too but not by that much.
|
On the subject of vikings, I saw a little while ago someone suggest an interesting upgrade for the viking.
The details where basically increased acceleration and turning speed as well as a near instantaneous change between modes.
I believe they called it the ragnarok engine.
At the end of the day most air units have terrible acceleration and turning circles and making a unit that could do something like out maneuver but not outrun units like muta or a phonex sounds interesting to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/ford-tractor-tire-jennifer-lyon.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090516032039/starcraft/images/1/14/Marine_SC2_DevRend2.jpg)
