EPTOneGoal: A better SC2 [Project Hub] - Page 11
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
On December 24 2012 12:23 Shikada wrote: Yeah... no. Without force fields available in the early game protoss needs a good staple unit they can mass. That's the immortal now, acting the rule of the dragoon from BW. Stalkers are not good as a main unit even in sc2, they don't have the health or the dps. But dragoon can kite marines while dealing good dps. Defensively with mothership core they will be strong enough. They seems overly expensive for their role. If stalkers are too weak they should receive a late game damage upgrade. The current immortals has too many upgrades. Harden shields in twilight council force toss to go twilight route. Protoss seems rather weak while teching to robo or stargate. I will play a few more games to see. | ||
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Unshapely
140 Posts
The kiting was seen against a small group of zerglings, when no zealots were nearby. It didn't work if there were a lot of zerglings, dragoons didn't have the attack rate to match that of multiple zerglings. So usually you'd see a High Templar dropping a storm if a lot of zerglings attack dragoons. Dragoon kiting really paid off in mirror matchups, when facing other dragoons + reaver. Man, that is worth mentioning. I haven't really seen enough Dragoon vs. Hydralisk, but dragoons usually die to about two control groups of Hydralisk because Hydras fire faster and don't have to wait too long for the attack animation. Though, I do agree. The immortal is a tad too expensive. Perhaps they should modify it's role, or maybe we just need more examples to really see it's effectiveness. I don't really think it forces the path to twilight council unless I scout a possible early threat from too many tanks. I'm not very high level so I'm probably the worst person to talk about this lol. | ||
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RiFT_
United States15 Posts
On December 24 2012 01:54 haitike wrote: This is awesome. I have not read all the pages because I have found the thread now. So I have a few questions. - What is the general opinion about Terrain advantage for increase the defense advantage and doing maps less plain and more interesting. - What do you think about Overkill and SmartFiring. Thanks! We are trying to not change fundamental aspects of the game by reverting them back to BW such as economy, smart cast, multiple building select, or high ground mechanics. Instead we sought to address everything through units and abilities for the time being. The notable exception to this is smart fire on the siege tank. The siege tank no longer smart fires and can overkill pretty badly. We haven't done too much research into what the appropriate delay is for it to realize that the unit is dead and stop firing so sometimes all the tanks won't get shots off because they are still rotating their turret to fire. This opened up a lot of things. With cheaper tanks, Terrans could invest gas and supply into other components of the mech army (hopefully). This also provides a huge incentive to spread out your tank lines (though the viper's blinding cloud does that as well) and gave a nice bonus to drops on top of tank lines since now they more reliably kill friendly tanks with splash. Out of order but, one of the big things we did to cement defender's advantage is to make gateways better for macro and warp gates much worse so now they are a niche mechanic for aggressive pushes, drop harass, and late game remaxes. Many of the new Heart of the Swarm units also emphasize positional play and being able to choose that position to set up in is also part of defender's advantage. This was not intended to be a foray into map making or turning SC2 into BW by changing mechanics from the ground up, but rather to create a more interesting game by redesigning units and changing relationships to create a game that allows player to express their skill in forms other than chain fungals and immortal sentry pushes. On December 24 2012 06:21 gCgCrypto wrote: Will this mod be published on HotS? I´d really love to play it on HotS and help to test it. If not i guess i´ll have to reinstall wings ^^ 2 major things that are still pending are getting this on EU and updating it for HotS. I cannot give a date when those will actually happen, but I would intend for that happen by Friday. I was not aware that people had uninstalled WoL and completely moved on to the beta. On December 24 2012 09:22 WarpTV wrote: Blink stalkers (or just stalkers) seem to hard counter zergling, mutas, and hydras. This is odd for balance. This closed off a lot of zerg core builds. On a side note Banelings are much more viable vs gatways armies. As previously stated the stalker muta relationship is undesirable, but having 2 units with bonuses against armored out the gateway was awkward. I am pushing for lowering stalker health to make mass stalker less of an issue is straight up fights but still viable as a high mobility harass and map presence unit that can serve as a "Ranged support strider" in battles. If there are any proposals for addressing the stalker muta relationship we would love to hear them. Fungal now suppresses all mobility ability, so it still blocks blink allowing your hydras to close on them. Not sure, how well it works with the lowered range, maybe the HotS projectile will help with that as well. We might have to look at fungal range/duration now that it isn't a root. Banelings do a number on gateway armies that don't go robo, but with the large immortal radius and hardened shields blocking baneling burst (as far as I know) they do alright. On December 24 2012 10:14 Zaurus wrote: I dont really like the new immortal, it is just an Amove unit, clumpsy and slow. I could do so much with early game stalker,The original stalker can kite and be used for harrass.I dont feel the need to be make it so specialised. Immortal should go back to robo. With a large radius and short range, an a-moved clump of immortals is lackluster. You really need large concaves to get the most out of your immortals. The early few stalkers had great map presence but the stalker couldn't really become a powerhouse to center the protoss army around since it had so much mobility. We hoped to preserve the stalker's identity as an elusive protoss warrior. The turret rotation rate might need to be increased so immortal kiting is more effective, but reducing the options at the gateway seems like a bad option and the simply nerfing forcefield wouldn't change the feeling that a protoss needed to abuse forcefield to win early engagements. Yes the immortal feels weak in the early game and that is something we are trying to address, but you also have to go twilight for +2. In BW it required templar archives for +2. Yes midgame protoss needs to get a twilight, it is essential for enhancing gateway units and production, but we need to the immortal to the point where it doesn't feel like a paper weight without hardened shields. What are the major damage sources that hardened shields is mitigating? Marauders get cut in half, other immortals damage is reduced by 60%, they have 20 less shields so they are still great against tank lines but melt to splash and emp if you clump up. the changes that hardened shields makes to each of those relationships may be too dramatic. it might end up being that we need to increase the base stats on immortals and change hardened shields to be something like reducing to 14 damage instead. Colter has proposed this but I was seeking to avoid changing something as icon as hardened shields. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
I do think it is a very clever move to swap the Stalker and Immortal, and turn the Stalker into a speedy, lighter, harass-oriented unit, and give Protoss a slower, meatier basic Gateway unit that is just strong in a fight heads-up. If massing Stalkers against Zerg is a problem (which seems so, as +Light on an Armored unit can be tough for zerg at the moment), then the best approach is to give Zerg a tool to fight Stalkers effectively, not to neuter Protoss. | ||
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WarpTV
205 Posts
And hydras bing in range is not the issue, hydras melt is a strait up engagement. The fact that Stalkers hard counter all of zergs T1 is a bit much. I would be a fan of a much lower HP stalker, So muta can just kill them. 60/60 | ||
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WarpTV
205 Posts
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haitike
Spain2722 Posts
On December 24 2012 20:47 RiFT_ wrote: We are trying to not change fundamental aspects of the game by reverting them back to BW such as economy, smart cast, multiple building select, or high ground mechanics. Instead we sought to address everything through units and abilities for the time being. The notable exception to this is smart fire on the siege tank. The siege tank no longer smart fires and can overkill pretty badly. We haven't done too much research into what the appropriate delay is for it to realize that the unit is dead and stop firing so sometimes all the tanks won't get shots off because they are still rotating their turret to fire. This opened up a lot of things. With cheaper tanks, Terrans could invest gas and supply into other components of the mech army (hopefully). This also provides a huge incentive to spread out your tank lines (though the viper's blinding cloud does that as well) and gave a nice bonus to drops on top of tank lines since now they more reliably kill friendly tanks with splash. Out of order but, one of the big things we did to cement defender's advantage is to make gateways better for macro and warp gates much worse so now they are a niche mechanic for aggressive pushes, drop harass, and late game remaxes. Many of the new Heart of the Swarm units also emphasize positional play and being able to choose that position to set up in is also part of defender's advantage. This was not intended to be a foray into map making or turning SC2 into BW by changing mechanics from the ground up, but rather to create a more interesting game by redesigning units and changing relationships to create a game that allows player to express their skill in forms other than chain fungals and immortal sentry pushes. I understand. One of the things that annoyed me in Starbow (despite being a great mod) is that with the time it looked more bw than sc2. So I understand the path you have choosen. I think that Tanks with overkill is one the best design ideas you could make. Are they 2 supply now? Im really insteresting, I can help with the testing in Europe if you need help  | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On December 24 2012 23:59 haitike wrote: Are they 2 supply now? Yes. I also agree with the Starbow statement. It just became Brood War basically. | ||
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quistador
United States43 Posts
On December 24 2012 19:02 Unshapely wrote: Dragoons couldn't really kite effectively because their attack animations require them to stop and wait for about 1/3rd of a second. You never really see a dragoon vs. marines because terrans always used mechanised units against Protoss. Using marines - a tier 1 unit - against the almighty zealot + high templar was akin to losing the game on purpose. Even if for some stupid reason the Terran was using Marines against protoss, then MM + Stim can outrun a dragoon, making any sort of kiting useless. The kiting you'd see from toss' dragoons was normally in the early game if the terran did a proxy rax or something. You can see kiting with a dragoon vs terran in game a replay of Tempest(p) vs Light(t). Tempest vs Light If the immortal had a range upgrade that could be attained early game if the toss had to sacrifice an early economy, you may see this again in the same situation if the terran proxy two raxed. | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
That has a number of effects: - gives it a reaper like out of combat regen - increases the value of the Shield armour upgrade - allows protoss armies to sustain multiple engagements without taking excessive damage It also gives the stalker's blink much more value. As people are discovering with the Reaper, damage against light units isn't really everything in harassment. It's more about mobility and the ability to post a sustained threat. A smaller, more nimble, shield focused Stalker with about the same damage as it has now (with +bonus to light) has about the same threat to light units as the Reaper has. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
Not only that but the race theme of the Protoss is higher space warriors. But in StarCraft 2, Protoss is more like space elves because they rely on gimmicks and spells like Psi Storm and Forcefields to defeat their opponent instead of having the true brute force that they used to have. That punch isn't really there anymore. But I believe OneGoal is trying to solve that. Those race themes have changed somewhat from its previous game; Brood War. It is explained in the first week reel video on the OP. | ||
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
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topsecret221
United States108 Posts
On December 25 2012 02:56 Zaurus wrote: hello, i tried using the collsus, it feels really hard to use. And they can hardly hit helions, and i think it will be hard to hit against bio. I will try more, but so far i dont really like the collosus The colossus is a unit that we are looking at working with further, due to many issues that have arisen over the time that it has been implemented: not bugs, but design issues. It is very difficult to hit units at all but the lowest level of play, and it is still conducive to deathball play and a-moving. | ||
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WarpTV
205 Posts
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On December 25 2012 08:32 WarpTV wrote: I can't really test ZvP any further with the state of the stalkers countering all of zerg T1 and muta. I'm not necessarily a Zerg player, or a Protoss player. But have you ever tried Swarm Hosts against Protoss? | ||
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WarpTV
205 Posts
On December 25 2012 09:04 MNdakota wrote: I'm not necessarily a Zerg player, or a Protoss player. But have you ever tried Swarm Hosts against Protoss? Yes I have. What about them? and how dose that help with stalkers bing OP vs 1/2 of zerg's builds? BM response below + Show Spoiler + Thanks, All of my early/mid games bulds are Solved! Ling, muta. Ling infestor Hydra, Ling Yes, just use the swarm host for my T1 army enstad of what I get at T1. Thank you soo much. I would have never though of using Swarm host in place of muta to harass. or to use Swarm host in place of Ling for quick back stabs. Swarm host are grate as a mass T1 army in place of hydra too. No swarm host can't fill the role of muta, ling or hydras. I have no clue what you are trying to tell us. Should zerg only make swarm host? | ||
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
On December 25 2012 10:02 WarpTV wrote: Yes I have. What about them? and how dose that help with stalkers bing OP vs 1/2 of zerg's builds? BM response below + Show Spoiler + Thanks, All of my early/mid games bulds are Solved! Ling, muta. Ling infestor Hydra, Ling Yes, just use the swarm host for my T1 army enstad of what I get at T1. Thank you soo much. I would have never though of using Swarm host in place of muta to harass. or to use Swarm host in place of Ling for quick back stabs. Swarm host are grate as a mass T1 army in place of hydra too. Edit, no swarm host can't fill the role of muta, ling or hydras. I have no clue what you are trying to tell us. Should zerg only make swarm host? Sarcastic much? Chill out dude, it's not like stalkers are an early game unit. You probably have more problems with mid game, so swarm host aren't a useless suggestion. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On December 25 2012 10:02 WarpTV wrote: Yes I have. What about them? and how dose that help with stalkers bing OP vs 1/2 of zerg's builds? BM response below + Show Spoiler + Thanks, All of my early/mid games bulds are Solved! Ling, muta. Ling infestor Hydra, Ling Yes, just use the swarm host for my T1 army enstad of what I get at T1. Thank you soo much. I would have never though of using Swarm host in place of muta to harass. or to use Swarm host in place of Ling for quick back stabs. Swarm host are grate as a mass T1 army in place of hydra too. No swarm host can't fill the role of muta, ling or hydras. I have no clue what you are trying to tell us. Should zerg only make swarm host? That was completely unnecessary. Do you have any replays that we can look at? | ||
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