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[M] (4) Bazaar - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
July 12 2012 00:39 GMT
#21
It might not be dramatically different from Whirlwind, it is similar to some extent, but read:

Nothing revolutionary. Just trying to make a good solid map.


That's all it is. Better for a mapmaker to start simple, but well done, than to try and revolutionize gameplay and fail miserably. I'm not going to defend its similarities to a fault, but it's a good step forward for a mapmaker to make a simple but solid map.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
SigmaFiE
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States333 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-12 00:53:18
July 12 2012 00:52 GMT
#22
Wall of Text

Let's stay on topic here gang. Arguing over similarities between maps is rediculous as you can take almost any map and find something similar between it and another map. I agree on both sides of the spectrum here.

Is this map influenced by Whirlwind? Yes. Was that a primary thought when designing the map? No. Do the similarities make the map worthless? Of course not. I clearly stated in my OP that this map was worked on as an attempt at making a solid map. I never intended it to be anything more than that for myself. Quite frankly, I think it did a great job of giving me the re-introduction to mapping proportions that I needed (a big thanks goes out to NewSunshine and ArcticRaven on that note!) as well as an introduction to 4player mapping and learned a few things about layouts along the way.

Now, as for the suggestions that have been made thus far.

1. Mains: I was/am aware they are a little on the small side. I had been hopeful that they would not need to be enlarged, but I can definitely understand the reason behind why they should be a little larger. I think I have an adjustment I can work on that will help that without affecting the nat to 3rd distances drastically (they will remain relatively equidistant).

2. Main Base Third:

Gfire: I can understand your position on how to adjust the pods -- I think that area of the map will lose something special though about how much the units can maneuver with an adjustment such as the one you are suggesting. That is not to say the idea is not worth merit, and I do have thoughts on how I could do that in combination with the enlargement of the mains, it is just to say that I am not certain right now that I would be happy with such an adjustment by simplifying the area. Still I will look into it.

iGrok: Good call on the mains. I think you are correct on enlarging them. And thanks for the compliment on the pathing on each of the "legs". The way I see it, there are 3 concentric rings (the center area being one of them) for maneuvering plus movements into the natural/main. My main principle here was to try and always maintain mobility for flanking purposes due to the highground advantage being present. If you can flank, you can overcome it.

EaththePath: I don't want to enlarge the overall map size at all. The map originally was larger than what it is now, so doing that would be a step backwards in my opinion. Also, I think I can still accomplish necessary changes within the sizes that I have right now.

Oxygensis: Yes, you're right. That was my mistake while typing up the title. If a mod coule change the thread title to "[M] (4) Bazaar" that would be great. Of the games I've seen played and/or played myself, I definitely enjoyed close positions more. It's just a different dynamic compared to cross positions.

IronManSC: This map was not an exercise in aesthetics so I am not upset about it. I do think they are varied enough that players can see the difference on the minimap and in game that it won't make much difference. On future maps I would certainly like to play with aesthetics more, but right now I am concentrating on developing my layout skills as that is the basis of mapping. I have a long ways to go.

Melty Butter: I certainly can appreciate your opinion and that is your right. I also certainly can see the similarites between the two maps (and wholly recognize Whirlwind as a contributing influence). I do agree with NewSunshine though that the smaller differences overall differentiate the two. If you would kindly take a look at your own 2 drawings, and note the smaller lines you drew (such as just outside the center areas, and the center area itself how the lines go around the smaller holes on Whirlwind creating 4 paths that then expand into 8 whereas mine has 8 paths to begin with) -- I think you can agree that it can influence it.

If you still have a problem with it -- I would suggest you try it out. Things I would ask you to specifically try are marine/medivac elevators between the thirds and main, as well as something as simple as dropping a siege tank (or other siege weapon) onto the open drop pod for zone control (and forewarning of attacks). I would also suggest just simply moving around the low ground area with a highly mobile force and poking and prodding and slowly pulling your opponent apart. I just think as a totality you'll see some differences that might change your mind.

kim9067: I would hope they wouldn't be used in the same tournament. I agree, they are too similar for tournament setting play.
https://johnemerson.artstation.com/
PandaZerg
Profile Joined April 2012
Canada148 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-13 02:05:28
July 13 2012 02:03 GMT
#23
I have played 3-4 games on it!
I think the map is perfect as it. Nothing to change imo and well balanced for what I see.

I prefer your map center comparatively to Whirlwind. Your map looks and feels better when I play on it.
Hope for you and players that your map will become popular!
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
July 13 2012 04:30 GMT
#24
Cool map. I do think it's very similar to Whirlwind but there's no reason both can't exist.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
eTcetRa
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia822 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-13 05:37:43
July 13 2012 04:34 GMT
#25
On July 12 2012 08:45 Melty Butter wrote:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]


oh wow THE DIFFERENCES! Some of the lines are even shorter than on the other version, wtf?

I bet you guys thought I wouldn't go to this much trouble to prove you wrong. Who's stupid now.




Still you, the admittedly small differences will still change army positioning, effectiveness of run-by's and all the like.

Just remember, every map follows certain balance rules which WILL cause similarity, it is what we do with the little room we have to maneuver which sets our maps apart.
Retired Mapmaker™
DYEAlabaster
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada1009 Posts
July 13 2012 04:41 GMT
#26
Overall big thumbs up from me. I'm glad to see these whirwind-inspired maps (with the 4-base layout) and see what new things can come from them.

Things to fix-

The mains are too small, extend them backwards or what not.
The special drop spot- it's a cool idea, but I would prefer it to have some marking (helicopter landing pad, something like that, to make it a little more clear it is usable (not necessary, just would be nice)
Not sure how I feel about the space between the 'natural' third, and the base beside it (12,3,6,9'o'clock). It seems a bit messy and cluttered in that area. If you clean this up, perhaps move the blocks around to create more of an organized space, it would go a long way to improving this map.

Again, nothing ground-breaking, and similar to WW, but on the whole, quite a solid and nice map. Something I'll play on from time to time.

Well done good sir!
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
July 13 2012 05:20 GMT
#27
On July 13 2012 13:34 eTcetRa wrote:
Just remember, every map follows certain balance rules which WILL cause similarity, it is what we do with the little room with have to maneuver which sets our maps apart.

Here, have some cookies.

*throws*
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
eTcetRa
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia822 Posts
July 13 2012 05:36 GMT
#28
On July 13 2012 14:20 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2012 13:34 eTcetRa wrote:
Just remember, every map follows certain balance rules which WILL cause similarity, it is what we do with the little room with have to maneuver which sets our maps apart.

Here, have some cookies.

*throws*


Didn't like them.

*throws back*
Retired Mapmaker™
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
July 13 2012 06:07 GMT
#29
On July 13 2012 14:36 eTcetRa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2012 14:20 NewSunshine wrote:
On July 13 2012 13:34 eTcetRa wrote:
Just remember, every map follows certain balance rules which WILL cause similarity, it is what we do with the little room with have to maneuver which sets our maps apart.

Here, have some cookies.

*throws*


Didn't like them.

*throws back*

ew.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
SigmaFiE
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States333 Posts
July 13 2012 21:55 GMT
#30
On July 13 2012 15:07 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2012 14:36 eTcetRa wrote:
On July 13 2012 14:20 NewSunshine wrote:
On July 13 2012 13:34 eTcetRa wrote:
Just remember, every map follows certain balance rules which WILL cause similarity, it is what we do with the little room with have to maneuver which sets our maps apart.

Here, have some cookies.

*throws*


Didn't like them.

*throws back*

ew.


Cookies should be dunked, not thrown. Candy bars. . . now THOSE should be thrown!

On Topic: If there are any other comments/critiques aside from waht has been mentioned, please state them.
https://johnemerson.artstation.com/
ArcticRaven
Profile Joined August 2011
France1406 Posts
July 13 2012 22:08 GMT
#31
Just wanted to say that if this is Whirlwind, then it is a much much better Whirlwind - it is waaay smaller. And that changes everything. Rushes are possible. You cannot hidden expo everywhere. The center is actually valuable. It's just better. And also there are more interesting features, especially the pathing around the third and from third to center.

That's a great, solid map with right proportions. Exactly what every newer mapmaker should do at least once.
[Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
July 13 2012 22:26 GMT
#32
I think it's only a bit smaller than whirlwind, and that pretty much only means there's no gap between the main and third and the main is smaller.
all's fair in love and melodies
ArcticRaven
Profile Joined August 2011
France1406 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-13 23:12:24
July 13 2012 22:35 GMT
#33
You think about the map and judge by the overview. I worked on it and ran it through the analyser countless time. That makes a difference

Edit : And it's pretty funny that you out of all mappers would come out and say that
[Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
July 15 2012 00:52 GMT
#34
On July 14 2012 07:08 ArcticRaven wrote:
Just wanted to say that if this is Whirlwind, then it is a much much better Whirlwind - it is waaay smaller. And that changes everything. Rushes are possible. You cannot hidden expo everywhere. The center is actually valuable. It's just better. And also there are more interesting features, especially the pathing around the third and from third to center.

That's a great, solid map with right proportions. Exactly what every newer mapmaker should do at least once.


I disagree. the reason why whichwhirlwind was that size is so that for all the thirds to fit, making the mains bigger and for a fourth thats difficult enough.
whirlwind is regarded as the plerfect llayout for rotationally symmetrical maps, only problem being how big the map is because somee people prefer smaller maps. you donto wantt a map pool with only whirlwind but you dont wantt one without It either.
because whirlwind is so goodd peoplepole copy It, no doubt.
what youre left with is the center which people change to DivIate from whirlwind.
this map is good solid map. you can't Say it is a beter version of whirlwind.

also chelk the rush dist fourthr daybreak.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-15 00:55:27
July 15 2012 00:53 GMT
#35
sorry about all the typing mistakes. gaveany note sucks at autochanging.

another reason Is that all spawns workk.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
shadogi
Profile Joined November 2011
United States194 Posts
July 15 2012 04:12 GMT
#36
On July 12 2012 06:05 Melty Butter wrote:
we already have this, it's called whirlwind


I was just about to post this. It really looks like whirlwind. Sorry dude.
ArcticRaven
Profile Joined August 2011
France1406 Posts
July 15 2012 09:31 GMT
#37
Whirlwind is the perfect layout for 4p rota ? If the perfect 4p rota is a map that will always go to three bases without variety and makes tvz even worse than what it is now, then we should all give up on it. Well, that wouldn't be that bad,as you and oxygenesis can testify - you made essentially the same map with a different center because 4p rota is so boring and stale - but i think this map does a much better job than whirlwind, whose sheer size is a structural flaw.
[Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-15 10:16:08
July 15 2012 10:01 GMT
#38
On July 15 2012 18:31 ArcticRaven wrote:
Whirlwind is the perfect layout for 4p rota ? If the perfect 4p rota is a map that will always go to three bases without variety and makes tvz even worse than what it is now, then we should all give up on it. Well, that wouldn't be that bad,as you and oxygenesis can testify - you made essentially the same map with a different center because 4p rota is so boring and stale - but i think this map does a much better job than whirlwind, whose sheer size is a structural flaw.

Wtf? I made the map first. I dont copy maps, at least i dont try to. My map was an idea of a compact rotational 4player map. Nvm, you wouldnt understand.

Also this map isnt much smaller, 3 squares less each side doesnt just fix a map, which i think youre saying
Also what i mean by whirldwind perfect layout is even with rotational symmetry, there are 16 bases, 2 equidistant thirds that fit on the map, which allows for all spawns to be possible which whirlwind was the first.
Because it is the ideal solution, people copy it, as evidant from many maps on this forum.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
ArcticRaven
Profile Joined August 2011
France1406 Posts
July 15 2012 10:30 GMT
#39
If you think whirlwind is the first boring equidistant 4p rota... then just browse through this forum's history. I Don know if TPW Dylarian Shipyards has been published, but it does have equidistant thirds and is way way older. Do you think 4p rota is a recent style ? It's old, stale and figured out, leading to every map looking the same (such as yours and oxygenesis', there was no copy intended there). I think this map does a good job of staying solid (which whirlwind isn't, since its rush distances make it unbalanced) and having unique features, such as the pathing through forward chokes and the general openness/chokiness contrast - open and narrow places are clear, making positional play more interesting.

This map is more solid and more interesting than whirlwind. It's better than whirlwind.
[Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!
AssyrianKing
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia2111 Posts
July 16 2012 11:01 GMT
#40
Haha that centre is sooooo flankable
John 15:13
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