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I think the concept is pretty cool. The rocks into the third is a pretty cool setup, so long as that isn't too abusable by some sort of timing push against 2-base.
I think it might be a bit too hard to take the fourth bases because of the rocks. Because of their position, you'll only be able to attack them from one side, which means something like lings will take a ridiculous amount of time to take them down. You can also float a CC to them which seems a bit on the strong side (maybe with the full islands as well, but Terran is struggling lately so it might be okay,) so maybe moving the rocks down to block the actual CC location so you can surround them more easily with lings and so CCs can't land there behind them would be a good idea.
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United States10253 Posts
overall not a bad map. with every island map, ur gonna have to make ir with like a creep tumor or something.
i suggest the 4th be more open. i think you should take out the pods that they are in and make a concave where the rocks are and make the 4th in that concave. chokes and stuff as necessary.
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you should make christmas trees, by making smaller lights from those and altering the height so they attach to the tree... i mean theres gotta be christmas trees. EDIT: its hard to do that, nvm, the tree moves and the lights stay the same on the christmas tree it looks weird.
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This is an awesome concept. I have always wanted a reason to go for fast overlord drops. My only critique is that the 4 bases attached to the low ground look a little cramped and that one natural looks a lot more open than the other. Nevermind, I didn't realize they are both aligned to the northwest.
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Nat choke to main backdoor is faster for the attacker or the defender?
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On June 24 2012 06:32 Gfire wrote:
I think it might be a bit too hard to take the fourth bases because of the rocks. Because of their position, you'll only be able to attack them from one side, which means something like lings will take a ridiculous amount of time to take them down. You can also float a CC to them which seems a bit on the strong side (maybe with the full islands as well, but Terran is struggling lately so it might be okay,) so maybe moving the rocks down to block the actual CC location so you can surround them more easily with lings and so CCs can't land there behind them would be a good idea.
It doesn't take as long as you would think it does. In playtesting they go down pretty quickly. These are 4th\5th bases we are talking about not a third.
As far as floating command centers, that is the experiment with this map. My hope is that it is not too strong. This is why there is an another entrance to the main so that one can not float command centers to islands and turtle as easily in you main base. Also if you float to the semi-islands, there is a way to break in there and the true islands are far away.
On June 24 2012 06:46 FlaShFTW wrote:
overall not a bad map. with every island map, ur gonna have to make ir with like a creep tumor or something.
I'm trying to avoid that. It defeats the purpose of an "island" map. Testing is required.
On June 24 2012 07:30 TheFish7 wrote:
This is an awesome concept. I have always wanted a reason to go for fast overlord drops. My only critique is that the 4 bases attached to the low ground look a little cramped and that one natural looks a lot more open than the other. Nevermind, I didn't realize they are both aligned to the northwest.
I increased the space.
On June 24 2012 09:03 Yonnua wrote:
Nat choke to main backdoor is faster for the attacker or the defender?
Isn't that immediately apparent when you look at it. The attacker has to go around to the front of the ramps where the defender only needs to bounce between the top of the ramps.
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United States10253 Posts
Well no. how does that defeat the purpose. the point of it is to make it balanced so that terran cant just make a cc and lift off and not get harassed for like 100000 minutes into the game. metropolis has it too.
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Creep tumors to block islands give zerg an advantage. Creep takes a long time to recede.
What about putting minerals there instead, like 26, so terran just cannot load up the CC with scvs to mine it?
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On June 25 2012 04:34 FlaShFTW wrote:
Well no. how does that defeat the purpose. the point of it is to make it balanced so that terran cant just make a cc and lift off and not get harassed for like 100000 minutes into the game. metropolis has it too.
My intention is to give Terran that option. Can you explain in specific terms what you mean by 100000 minutes into the game? That is, why it is not viable to let Terran do that?
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your Country52797 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:52 MarcusRife wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 04:34 FlaShFTW wrote:
Well no. how does that defeat the purpose. the point of it is to make it balanced so that terran cant just make a cc and lift off and not get harassed for like 100000 minutes into the game. metropolis has it too. My intention is to give Terran that option. Can you explain in specific terms what you mean by 100000 minutes into the game? That is, why it is not viable to let Terran do that?
Terran can 3CC and float to two different islands while only having to defend their main base.
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On June 25 2012 06:53 TehTemplar wrote:
Terran can 3CC and float to two different islands while only having to defend their main base.
If they do that does it automatically win them the game?
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Islands and Semin islands without something blocking them is game breaking IMO, I have just had a game where a Terran took the semi island in Shakuras (we were cross), and even though I guessed he was there I couldn't do anything since he constantly pushed me and I had to defend and not send units to break the rocks. I can't even think about a full island where you can't even break the rocks.
Having islands force you into certain techs (air or drops), or you will have an auto disadvantage, if that is what you want the its cool, but anyways without creep it is to imbalanced IMO.
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On June 25 2012 10:37 moskonia wrote:
Having islands force you into certain techs (air or drops), or you will have an auto disadvantage, if that is what you want the its cool, but anyways without creep it is to imbalanced IMO.
I respect your opinion that it is imbalanced but I am not convinced. The question in my mind is do the islands favor one race over another? People tend to focus on Terran so here are my thoughts on this. Citing that Terran going to the island "forces" you to get air or drops as an example that demonstrates imbalance doesn't make a lot of since to me. If you are playing Terran and you queue up a Protoss does that not "force" you to go bio? Does that mean TvP is imbalanced? There is almost always going to be a generally accepted "best way" to play a match-up on a given map. What is wrong with saying the "best way" to play against Terran on this map is to get air or drops. It is certainly not conventional but is it not a goal to create variety in gameplay.
I maintain that this requires testing unless someone can just lay it out for me and say specifically how Terran can roll anyone they want on this map.
As far as I am concerned at this moment anything is possible. Perhaps Terran will try to 3 cc and float to the islands against Zerg, the Zerg goes Mutas and the Terran just dies. Then Terran will say gee, that doesn't work and never do it again. In the long run no one will ever try to float cc's to the islands early on if this was the case.
If I see evidence to the contrary I will change my mind.
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I disagree, in TvP you don't have to go bio, air terran was proved to work, and some people can play mech also, so even though bio is the most popular, I wouldn;t call it the only playstyle.
About islands, there is no way to stop a Terran from taking an early island base if it is not blocked, since until even the fastest muta play comes the Terran is sure to have defenses up. I think it is just to easy to take in the early game, while later in the game it should be very very hard, since muta's can come and stop the CC flying or kill the turrets while they build.
That is why unless you got something blocking the island it gives Terran an advantage. If there is something blocking the island then while Terran has the easiest ways to get an expansion there, it is not a free expo, so it is OK.
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United States10253 Posts
Terran's don't have to get dropship tech to get the islands, while the other races do. nuff said. The fact that Terran can super duper early expo to those islands and not get punished for it because they can just hug their main is huge. Other races would have to rush lair as zerg (something you never want to do), and forces Protoss to get warp-prism. It forces those two races to make a build that combines a build with drop research. While Terran just has to "research" lift-off-buildings tech.
Look at any island map. Lost temple was removed for this reason. Metropolis has tumors for this reason. Please understand. We aren't criticizing or bashing this map. We are simply asking for a small thing to be added.
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On June 25 2012 12:13 FlaShFTW wrote:
Terran's don't have to get dropship tech to get the islands, while the other races do. nuff said. The fact that Terran can super duper early expo to those islands and not get punished for it because they can just hug their main is huge. Other races would have to rush lair as zerg (something you never want to do), and forces Protoss to get warp-prism. It forces those two races to make a build that combines a build with drop research. While Terran just has to "research" lift-off-buildings tech.
Look at any island map. Lost temple was removed for this reason. Metropolis has tumors for this reason. Please understand. We aren't criticizing or bashing this map. We are simply asking for a small thing to be added.
I assure you nothing is being taken personally. I just happen to disagree and I am trying to explain why point-for-point that you bring up. The reasons you are giving are not convincing me that there is a problem yet. I fully admit that there could be a reason why it won't work, I just have not seen something that jumps out at me yet.
When you say terrans don't need dropship tech to get to the islands, therefore it is a problem, end of discussion. I don't see it that way. There are drawbacks to floating to the island.
1. Longer travel time means lost mining time.
2. Can't transfer workers as easily so they reach saturation later.
3. They are more spread out.
Also what they are doing is scoutable, so if they are doing super duper expanding as you put it they will be doing so with the cost of a smaller army. Thus why do you say it is not punishable? Zerg still has three bases available to them to expand to quickly. They don't NEED to go to the islands to expand. They can still out expand the Terran.
I thought Lost Temple was removed mainly because of the high ground above the natural. Maybe I was mistaken. I can't speak to the reasons regarding Metropolis. I don't know to what extent it was tested. I can say that my map is different from Metropolis though so I don't know if all the same things apply.
I know what you are asking and it my opinion it compromises the concept I had in mind for this map. I am not willing to make that compromise at this time. I appreciate the time you have taken to respond.
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On June 25 2012 15:30 MarcusRife wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 12:13 FlaShFTW wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Terran's don't have to get dropship tech to get the islands, while the other races do. nuff said. The fact that Terran can super duper early expo to those islands and not get punished for it because they can just hug their main is huge. Other races would have to rush lair as zerg (something you never want to do), and forces Protoss to get warp-prism. It forces those two races to make a build that combines a build with drop research. While Terran just has to "research" lift-off-buildings tech.
Look at any island map. Lost temple was removed for this reason. Metropolis has tumors for this reason. Please understand. We aren't criticizing or bashing this map. We are simply asking for a small thing to be added.
I assure you nothing is being taken personally. I just happen to disagree and I am trying to explain why point-for-point that you bring up. The reasons you are giving are not convincing me that there is a problem yet. I fully admit that there could be a reason why it won't work, I just have not seen something that jumps out at me yet. When you say terrans don't need dropship tech to get to the islands, therefore it is a problem, end of discussion. I don't see it that way. There are drawbacks to floating to the island. 1. Longer travel time means lost mining time. 2. Can't transfer workers as easily so they reach saturation later. 3. They are more spread out. Also what they are doing is scoutable, so if they are doing super duper expanding as you put it they will be doing so with the cost of a smaller army. Thus why do you say it is not punishable? Zerg still has three bases available to them to expand to quickly. They don't NEED to go to the islands to expand. They can still out expand the Terran. I thought Lost Temple was removed mainly because of the high ground above the natural. Maybe I was mistaken. I can't speak to the reasons regarding Metropolis. I don't know to what extent it was tested. I can say that my map is different from Metropolis though so I don't know if all the same things apply. I know what you are asking and it my opinion it compromises the concept I had in mind for this map. I am not willing to make that compromise at this time. I appreciate the time you have taken to respond.
The Problem IMO is that in PvT you might lose mining time etc etc.... but its a completely secure expansion... You can only scout it in robo tech, you have to stop colossi production to get there..... Almost no tactics involve stargate tech in early/mid game besides a couple of all ins
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It should be possible to make christmas tree, using landing lights, just gotta variate the height of them.
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On June 25 2012 20:41 Stackz wrote:
The Problem IMO is that in PvT you might lose mining time etc etc.... but its a completely secure expansion... You can only scout it in robo tech, you have to stop colossi production to get there..... Almost no tactics involve stargate tech in early/mid game besides a couple of all ins
That sounds like a fair concern to me. That is certainly something I would like to explore with this map.
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On June 25 2012 22:41 Guardian85 wrote:
It should be possible to make christmas tree, using landing lights, just gotta variate the height of them.
I looked into it, didn't turn out very well. The tree sways in the wind and the light stays still. It doesn't look good.
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United States10253 Posts
Terran has mules. Saturation isn't really needed for a Terran player 
But w.e. man. If you are going to stick with this even though the majority of people think differently, that's your choice.
I still think you need to change the layout of the 4th's. Don't know how, considering you don't have much room to do it since the islands take up the corners.
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While terran has mules, they aren't effected by other workers and thus expanding doesn't increase your income from mules any more than having an in-base OC. The only increase in income you get from taking the island would be from the SCVs you make/take there. And it also means you won't mine out your other bases as fast if you send your mules to the far location, but I don't think that really has a significant effect on how OP terran becomes.
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United States10253 Posts
On June 26 2012 00:58 Gfire wrote:
While terran has mules, they aren't effected by other workers and thus expanding doesn't increase your income from mules any more than having an in-base OC. The only increase in income you get from taking the island would be from the SCVs you make/take there. And it also means you won't mine out your other bases as fast if you send your mules to the far location, but I don't think that really has a significant effect on how OP terran becomes.
I forget who was playing who, but basically in the late game, terran went mass OC and grabbed the two islands on metro. basically the islands became dry in 3 minutes, but terran basically wasn't pressured at all in those 3 short minutes, and their econ skyrocketed, leaving zerg no choice but to try to take the two middle expos, which terran denied continously, running out the zerg.
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On June 26 2012 01:04 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 00:58 Gfire wrote:
While terran has mules, they aren't effected by other workers and thus expanding doesn't increase your income from mules any more than having an in-base OC. The only increase in income you get from taking the island would be from the SCVs you make/take there. And it also means you won't mine out your other bases as fast if you send your mules to the far location, but I don't think that really has a significant effect on how OP terran becomes. I forget who was playing who, but basically in the late game, terran went mass OC and grabbed the two islands on metro. basically the islands became dry in 3 minutes, but terran basically wasn't pressured at all in those 3 short minutes, and their econ skyrocketed, leaving zerg no choice but to try to take the two middle expos, which terran denied continously, running out the zerg.
Yeah, your right, it does effect how OP terran becomes. But I in terms of fast expanding to the island by floating to it, it doesn't really come into effect for a really long time. The inability to transfer workers to it hurts Terran nearly as much as the other races, although they are able to pick up a few SCVs in a CC. What you refer to is an issue with islands in general, even if blocked by tumors or rocks, though.
Of course, that doesn't make islands balanced or mean that you shouldn't block them, although maybe if done properly you could counteract the imbalances.
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United States10253 Posts
On June 26 2012 01:16 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:04 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 26 2012 00:58 Gfire wrote:
While terran has mules, they aren't effected by other workers and thus expanding doesn't increase your income from mules any more than having an in-base OC. The only increase in income you get from taking the island would be from the SCVs you make/take there. And it also means you won't mine out your other bases as fast if you send your mules to the far location, but I don't think that really has a significant effect on how OP terran becomes. I forget who was playing who, but basically in the late game, terran went mass OC and grabbed the two islands on metro. basically the islands became dry in 3 minutes, but terran basically wasn't pressured at all in those 3 short minutes, and their econ skyrocketed, leaving zerg no choice but to try to take the two middle expos, which terran denied continously, running out the zerg. Yeah, your right, it does effect how OP terran becomes. But I in terms of fast expanding to the island by floating to it, it doesn't really come into effect for a really long time. The inability to transfer workers to it hurts Terran nearly as much as the other races, although they are able to pick up a few SCVs in a CC. What you refer to is an issue with islands in general, even if blocked by tumors or rocks, though. Of course, that doesn't make islands balanced or mean that you shouldn't block them, although maybe if done properly you could counteract the imbalances.
The entire point of the creep tumors/things that block from terrans lifting, is so that terran has to get drop research as well as zerg and protoss. thats the whole point. sure, mining it out won't be that big of a deal in the beginning of the game, but if you could have a base that couldn't be harassed for 8-10 minutes without forcing, say zerg to tech instead of pump econ, and for protoss to be forced to get an earlier robo for WP, would you take it? its an unfair advantage no matter how you look at it.
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On June 26 2012 01:33 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:16 Gfire wrote:On June 26 2012 01:04 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 26 2012 00:58 Gfire wrote:
While terran has mules, they aren't effected by other workers and thus expanding doesn't increase your income from mules any more than having an in-base OC. The only increase in income you get from taking the island would be from the SCVs you make/take there. And it also means you won't mine out your other bases as fast if you send your mules to the far location, but I don't think that really has a significant effect on how OP terran becomes. I forget who was playing who, but basically in the late game, terran went mass OC and grabbed the two islands on metro. basically the islands became dry in 3 minutes, but terran basically wasn't pressured at all in those 3 short minutes, and their econ skyrocketed, leaving zerg no choice but to try to take the two middle expos, which terran denied continously, running out the zerg. Yeah, your right, it does effect how OP terran becomes. But I in terms of fast expanding to the island by floating to it, it doesn't really come into effect for a really long time. The inability to transfer workers to it hurts Terran nearly as much as the other races, although they are able to pick up a few SCVs in a CC. What you refer to is an issue with islands in general, even if blocked by tumors or rocks, though. Of course, that doesn't make islands balanced or mean that you shouldn't block them, although maybe if done properly you could counteract the imbalances. The entire point of the creep tumors/things that block from terrans lifting, is so that terran has to get drop research as well as zerg and protoss. thats the whole point. sure, mining it out won't be that big of a deal in the beginning of the game, but if you could have a base that couldn't be harassed for 8-10 minutes without forcing, say zerg to tech instead of pump econ, and for protoss to be forced to get an earlier robo for WP, would you take it? its an unfair advantage no matter how you look at it.
I know, and agree. I only meant to point out that the mule doesn't really have an effect on the strength of taking islands that early, not to argue that it would be okay or balanced to have unblocked islands. I want to keep an open mind, but it would probably not be okay to leave islands unblocked.
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United States10253 Posts
On June 26 2012 02:00 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:33 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 26 2012 01:16 Gfire wrote:On June 26 2012 01:04 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 26 2012 00:58 Gfire wrote:
While terran has mules, they aren't effected by other workers and thus expanding doesn't increase your income from mules any more than having an in-base OC. The only increase in income you get from taking the island would be from the SCVs you make/take there. And it also means you won't mine out your other bases as fast if you send your mules to the far location, but I don't think that really has a significant effect on how OP terran becomes. I forget who was playing who, but basically in the late game, terran went mass OC and grabbed the two islands on metro. basically the islands became dry in 3 minutes, but terran basically wasn't pressured at all in those 3 short minutes, and their econ skyrocketed, leaving zerg no choice but to try to take the two middle expos, which terran denied continously, running out the zerg. Yeah, your right, it does effect how OP terran becomes. But I in terms of fast expanding to the island by floating to it, it doesn't really come into effect for a really long time. The inability to transfer workers to it hurts Terran nearly as much as the other races, although they are able to pick up a few SCVs in a CC. What you refer to is an issue with islands in general, even if blocked by tumors or rocks, though. Of course, that doesn't make islands balanced or mean that you shouldn't block them, although maybe if done properly you could counteract the imbalances. The entire point of the creep tumors/things that block from terrans lifting, is so that terran has to get drop research as well as zerg and protoss. thats the whole point. sure, mining it out won't be that big of a deal in the beginning of the game, but if you could have a base that couldn't be harassed for 8-10 minutes without forcing, say zerg to tech instead of pump econ, and for protoss to be forced to get an earlier robo for WP, would you take it? its an unfair advantage no matter how you look at it. I know, and agree. I only meant to point out that the mule doesn't really have an effect on the strength of taking islands that early, not to argue that it would be okay or balanced to have unblocked islands. I want to keep an open mind, but it would probably not be okay to leave islands unblocked.
I mean i guess. i still think if terran were to get some early macro OCs, it could turn imbalanced. but im sorry that i miss understood you before.
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On June 26 2012 02:05 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:00 Gfire wrote:On June 26 2012 01:33 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 26 2012 01:16 Gfire wrote:On June 26 2012 01:04 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 26 2012 00:58 Gfire wrote:
While terran has mules, they aren't effected by other workers and thus expanding doesn't increase your income from mules any more than having an in-base OC. The only increase in income you get from taking the island would be from the SCVs you make/take there. And it also means you won't mine out your other bases as fast if you send your mules to the far location, but I don't think that really has a significant effect on how OP terran becomes. I forget who was playing who, but basically in the late game, terran went mass OC and grabbed the two islands on metro. basically the islands became dry in 3 minutes, but terran basically wasn't pressured at all in those 3 short minutes, and their econ skyrocketed, leaving zerg no choice but to try to take the two middle expos, which terran denied continously, running out the zerg. Yeah, your right, it does effect how OP terran becomes. But I in terms of fast expanding to the island by floating to it, it doesn't really come into effect for a really long time. The inability to transfer workers to it hurts Terran nearly as much as the other races, although they are able to pick up a few SCVs in a CC. What you refer to is an issue with islands in general, even if blocked by tumors or rocks, though. Of course, that doesn't make islands balanced or mean that you shouldn't block them, although maybe if done properly you could counteract the imbalances. The entire point of the creep tumors/things that block from terrans lifting, is so that terran has to get drop research as well as zerg and protoss. thats the whole point. sure, mining it out won't be that big of a deal in the beginning of the game, but if you could have a base that couldn't be harassed for 8-10 minutes without forcing, say zerg to tech instead of pump econ, and for protoss to be forced to get an earlier robo for WP, would you take it? its an unfair advantage no matter how you look at it. I know, and agree. I only meant to point out that the mule doesn't really have an effect on the strength of taking islands that early, not to argue that it would be okay or balanced to have unblocked islands. I want to keep an open mind, but it would probably not be okay to leave islands unblocked. I mean i guess. i still think if terran were to get some early macro OCs, it could turn imbalanced. but im sorry that i miss understood you before.
That's okay. No big deal. I'm probably bad at communicating my thoughts properly.
But do you think that by the time they would have any macro orbitals that they would also have drop tech and be able to remove a tumor? Meaning that mules would become an issue even if the island is blocked. At least on a map like metro, where, kinda like shakuras, it becomes hard to take bases late game in zvt. I could see that with this map, even if the islands were blocked.
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United States10253 Posts
On June 26 2012 02:17 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:05 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 26 2012 02:00 Gfire wrote:On June 26 2012 01:33 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 26 2012 01:16 Gfire wrote:On June 26 2012 01:04 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 26 2012 00:58 Gfire wrote:
While terran has mules, they aren't effected by other workers and thus expanding doesn't increase your income from mules any more than having an in-base OC. The only increase in income you get from taking the island would be from the SCVs you make/take there. And it also means you won't mine out your other bases as fast if you send your mules to the far location, but I don't think that really has a significant effect on how OP terran becomes. I forget who was playing who, but basically in the late game, terran went mass OC and grabbed the two islands on metro. basically the islands became dry in 3 minutes, but terran basically wasn't pressured at all in those 3 short minutes, and their econ skyrocketed, leaving zerg no choice but to try to take the two middle expos, which terran denied continously, running out the zerg. Yeah, your right, it does effect how OP terran becomes. But I in terms of fast expanding to the island by floating to it, it doesn't really come into effect for a really long time. The inability to transfer workers to it hurts Terran nearly as much as the other races, although they are able to pick up a few SCVs in a CC. What you refer to is an issue with islands in general, even if blocked by tumors or rocks, though. Of course, that doesn't make islands balanced or mean that you shouldn't block them, although maybe if done properly you could counteract the imbalances. The entire point of the creep tumors/things that block from terrans lifting, is so that terran has to get drop research as well as zerg and protoss. thats the whole point. sure, mining it out won't be that big of a deal in the beginning of the game, but if you could have a base that couldn't be harassed for 8-10 minutes without forcing, say zerg to tech instead of pump econ, and for protoss to be forced to get an earlier robo for WP, would you take it? its an unfair advantage no matter how you look at it. I know, and agree. I only meant to point out that the mule doesn't really have an effect on the strength of taking islands that early, not to argue that it would be okay or balanced to have unblocked islands. I want to keep an open mind, but it would probably not be okay to leave islands unblocked. I mean i guess. i still think if terran were to get some early macro OCs, it could turn imbalanced. but im sorry that i miss understood you before. That's okay. No big deal. I'm probably bad at communicating my thoughts properly. But do you think that by the time they would have any macro orbitals that they would also have drop tech and be able to remove a tumor? Meaning that mules would become an issue even if the island is blocked. At least on a map like metro, where, kinda like shakuras, it becomes hard to take bases late game in zvt. I could see that with this map, even if the islands were blocked.
but that's the point. the tumors slow down terran so they are forced to get that drop research. and then zerg and protoss can catch up on tech at that stage in the game. there's nothing we can do about macro OCs. we cant force blizzard to not allow that. we are just giving a chance for the others to put pressure, or even take the bases for themselves first.
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