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[M] (4) ESV Golden Valley

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 19:22:32
May 05 2012 23:22 GMT
#1
[image loading]

[image loading]

ESV.TV The home of the Korean Weekly!


ESV Golden Valley

v1.1
Made by: Gfire
Published on: [AM] [EU] [SEA] [KR]

[image loading]


Introduction/Inspiration:

This is a sort of setup which has been developing in my head for a while now. The other day I sat down and built it.

This is my first 4p rotational map in... Very long time. It's not something I saw much benefit in pursuing, as they are harder to make but not really any better in my opinion. However, I realized that maps are often about good concepts, and not striving to make some optimal or ideal map, I decided to make so since I had a rotational map concept developing in my head.

The concept is about the ground third bases (a bit inspired by Whirlwind, I admit,) but they are only 6m1hyg bases, so you'll have to take a fourth pretty early. I paired it with a bridge from the area between the two third bases which lead up to a high ground pod players can control towards the center. I really liked this general layout, and it seemed to work quite well for a 4p rotational map, although the mains are a bit squished.

The watchtower placement came in later. I thought there was a lot of airspace and I decided to include something which I had been thinking about for a while, which was using Watchtowers to spot air space to see drops or other flying units on route to your base. I think there could be some interesting tactics around the watchtower as well.




Close Ups: Imgur Album

Data (Aesthetics):
  • Texture Set:
    1. Agria Dirt
    2. Braxis Alpha Rust
    3. Braxis Alpha Rock
    4. Bel'Shir Grass Light
    5. Agria Grass Yellow
    6. Bel'Shir Bricks Small
    7. Aiur Tiles
    8. Aiur Small Bricks

  • Cliff Type:
    1. Aiur Manmade Cliffs
    2. Braxis Alpha Organic Cliffs




Pictures (Gameplay):
+ Show Spoiler [Analyzer] +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [Angled Overview] +
[image loading]


Data (Gameplay):
  • Playable Bounds: 152x152
  • Main Choke <-> Main Choke Distance(s): 41 (close) 54 (cross)




Change Log:
+ Show Spoiler +
Update 1 - Updated Aesthetics, added LosB and critters, put a watchtower in the center and removed the other ones.
Update 2 - Updated the map for ESV Korean Weekly. Aesthetic and pathing improvements, minor bug fixes
Update 3 - Added a very small gap between the main and adjacent third.


[image loading]
all's fair in love and melodies
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
May 06 2012 00:45 GMT
#2
This is awesome! Seriously, this is one of the best "standard-ish" maps I've seen. Great work on the center. The bridge works well too.

I'm not sure how well the thirds will work with the metagame, but it might actually improve ZvP so it isn't such a fast max. We'll see.

I think you can probably start working on some creative stuff like new map features. Definitely work some more on the aesthetics- these are alright, but I think it could use some more doodads like trees, rocks, brush, etc.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
May 06 2012 01:46 GMT
#3
On May 06 2012 09:45 monitor wrote:
This is awesome! Seriously, this is one of the best "standard-ish" maps I've seen. Great work on the center. The bridge works well too.

I'm not sure how well the thirds will work with the metagame, but it might actually improve ZvP so it isn't such a fast max. We'll see.

I think you can probably start working on some creative stuff like new map features. Definitely work some more on the aesthetics- these are alright, but I think it could use some more doodads like trees, rocks, brush, etc.

Thanks. ^^ That means a lot coming from you.

I want to add more to the aesthetics... I kinda suck when it gets to this point, though.
all's fair in love and melodies
Praetorial
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States4241 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-06 02:25:12
May 06 2012 02:24 GMT
#4
Right now it looks a lot like dull green valley.

Try adding some of those yellow crystal things!

But otherwise very excellent and mechanically strong map.
FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods!
Natespank
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada449 Posts
May 06 2012 02:38 GMT
#5
<3
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
May 06 2012 02:39 GMT
#6
On May 06 2012 11:24 Praetorial wrote:
Right now it looks a lot like dull green valley.

Try adding some of those yellow crystal things!

But otherwise very excellent and mechanically strong map.

Well I'm terrible at naming things.


On May 06 2012 11:38 Natespank wrote:
<3

<3
all's fair in love and melodies
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
May 06 2012 02:47 GMT
#7
I think it is really similar to Whirlwind, as you admit. However, it does have a cool idea, the watchtowers being used to watch airspace. Obviously, having too much airspace in a map is bad(not saying that about this map at all, just a general thing), but placing watchtowers that specifically cover chunks of airspace can create an entirely new type of map feature, and metalopolis-style maps(maps with blobs of airspace between the mains) might become more well-balanced. At least, there certainly is the potential for something like that.

You should change the name to Brown Valley. It fits better, and will make people laugh. :D
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
TremendO
Profile Joined May 2012
United States14 Posts
May 06 2012 04:41 GMT
#8
I dig the center. may be a BIT too easy for toss or terran to sit on 4 bases though... and a terran attack on the 3rd base would be pretty brutal with the watchtowers the way they are. but hey i play z so it's in my blood to complain. real nice aesthetics though... and i dont even like warm colors..
are80
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
May 06 2012 05:27 GMT
#9
This is inverse carl sagan + whirlwind. In other words, sweet. I really like the aesthetics vibe. The only thing that could go wrong with this map is the narrow chokes on the push between adjacent bases. Mech TvZ could get ugly, not sure. But the towers help immensely with early pushes and have that perfect balance of slightly out of the way to control, and also possible to avoid for longer route. On top of that they cover air space as a novelty feature. Cool.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
May 06 2012 08:07 GMT
#10
Put the watch towers in the middle. The middle just looks boring and serves no real purpose unless it's cross-spawn. I also disagree with watch towers revealing 2 bases each.
SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
Callynn
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands917 Posts
May 06 2012 09:58 GMT
#11
So the only way to get a third base with 2 geysers is by expanding to the other side of the map (and non at all if you play this map 2v2). I miss at least a third base with 2 geysers since it is hard to play a macro-oriented game with so few geysers.

I would consider blocking the entrance to a 'third' with rocks and add a geyser to the less safe 'fourth' (I am talking about the at the moment equally hard to defend third and fourth bases.

That way you kind-of solve the geyser issue and still leave a viable choice for some players who wish to take the safer base whose ramp is defended by a rock wall but has less gas.
Comparing BW with SCII is like comparing a beautiful three-master sailing ship with a modern battlecruiser. Both are beautiful in their own way, both perform the same task, but they are worlds apart in how they are built and how they are steered.
Samcai
Profile Joined March 2011
Belgium58 Posts
May 06 2012 11:09 GMT
#12
Really nice map

Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
May 06 2012 11:44 GMT
#13
The layout is just... so cool. Death to all turtle games! \o/ The highgrounds should provide great strategical games on all spawns.

The middle seems a little empty. Could you spice it up a little?
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
May 06 2012 17:35 GMT
#14
On May 06 2012 11:47 NewSunshine wrote:
I think it is really similar to Whirlwind, as you admit. However, it does have a cool idea, the watchtowers being used to watch airspace. Obviously, having too much airspace in a map is bad(not saying that about this map at all, just a general thing), but placing watchtowers that specifically cover chunks of airspace can create an entirely new type of map feature, and metalopolis-style maps(maps with blobs of airspace between the mains) might become more well-balanced. At least, there certainly is the potential for something like that.

You should change the name to Brown Valley. It fits better, and will make people laugh. :D

Yup. We'll see how well it works, I guess.

On May 06 2012 13:41 TremendO wrote:
I dig the center. may be a BIT too easy for toss or terran to sit on 4 bases though... and a terran attack on the 3rd base would be pretty brutal with the watchtowers the way they are. but hey i play z so it's in my blood to complain. real nice aesthetics though... and i dont even like warm colors..

Yeah, my biggest concern here would be a Terran expanding towards a Zerg in close positions and locking down the watchtower.

On May 06 2012 14:27 EatThePath wrote:
This is inverse carl sagan + whirlwind. In other words, sweet. I really like the aesthetics vibe. The only thing that could go wrong with this map is the narrow chokes on the push between adjacent bases. Mech TvZ could get ugly, not sure. But the towers help immensely with early pushes and have that perfect balance of slightly out of the way to control, and also possible to avoid for longer route. On top of that they cover air space as a novelty feature. Cool.

Yeah, TvZ mech is definitely a concern. Hopefully not too bad since the Zerg can expand away from the Terran and there's lots of space for counterattacks and such, but we'll see.

On May 06 2012 17:07 IronManSC wrote:
Put the watch towers in the middle. The middle just looks boring and serves no real purpose unless it's cross-spawn. I also disagree with watch towers revealing 2 bases each.

Yeah, I was already considering that. I'm not quite as conservative a mapper as you, and I put the watchtowers where they are although I knew they might cause problems.

On May 06 2012 18:58 Callynn wrote:
So the only way to get a third base with 2 geysers is by expanding to the other side of the map (and non at all if you play this map 2v2). I miss at least a third base with 2 geysers since it is hard to play a macro-oriented game with so few geysers.

I would consider blocking the entrance to a 'third' with rocks and add a geyser to the less safe 'fourth' (I am talking about the at the moment equally hard to defend third and fourth bases.

That way you kind-of solve the geyser issue and still leave a viable choice for some players who wish to take the safer base whose ramp is defended by a rock wall but has less gas.

They are high yield geysers, btw, so it's only a small amount less gas. The entire point of doing this is so that players have some incentive for taking fourth even before their main mines out.


On May 06 2012 20:09 Samcai wrote:
Really nice map


Thanks ^^


On May 06 2012 20:44 Aunvilgod wrote:
The layout is just... so cool. Death to all turtle games! \o/ The highgrounds should provide great strategical games on all spawns.

The middle seems a little empty. Could you spice it up a little?

The middle is a bit empty... I don't want it to be any less open than this, but visually it is a bit boring. I'm planning on working on the visual side a little more. It's also possible that I would put a watchtower in the middle if the current ones don't work out.
all's fair in love and melodies
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
May 06 2012 18:15 GMT
#15
You can just throw down some trees to make it look nicer ^^ Also generate foliage!

I agree with Superouman that the middle is a bit boring and could use a tower. The side towers are alright, but I don't think they're necessary. Drop spotting should be more about skill than just sitting at a tower imo.

Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
May 06 2012 19:03 GMT
#16
I did generate foliage... Should it be thicker?

I'm more heavily considering removing these watchtowers after the comments. Thought a think it's "worth a try" it's not as if people are going to do intensive playtesting to figure out if it's worth it. Good players won't play a map a lot unless it's in a tournament, and a tournament won't include an untested map, especially if it has a weird, untested feature like this, which could be broken. It's the map pool paradox. For this reason, it's good to be conservative with maps if you want them to be accepted. That's hard for me because I like to push the limits, but it's probably the major thing holding me back from success as a mapper (second only to my refusal to use pathable water .)

So I'll likely take the watchtowers out. Maybe I'll add a poll for that.

I'm not sure what's wrong with the center though... Does it really need a watchtower to make it less boring? Is there not enough focus on the center? Does it need to have more weight to it? I would fear that a watchtower would remove from some positional play and map control, so I'm hesitant. Although it's probably preferable to the current setup of the watchtowers.

You say that drop spotting should be more about skill than just sitting at a tower, and I agree, but I also feel that way about push scouting.

I'll add some polls about it.
all's fair in love and melodies
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
May 06 2012 20:21 GMT
#17
Very nice work Gfire, I love the idea of lowering the resource counts on the bases beyond the natural.
I'm torn when it comes to the watchtowers - I like the idea of putting them on the sides of the map, but I worry that they will erode defender's advantage too much for whomever is not holding the towers.

For the aesthetics in the middle, I would suggest lots of scattered plants, jungle and wasteland, Brambles, and TempleBricks, Birds, Bush, maybe Tumbleweeds, Vines, Rock Small are all good for adding tiny details without worrying about footprints, and are less random than generated foliage.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
May 06 2012 20:30 GMT
#18
Yeah, I've added some trees in some areas and will continue to, and I'm also going to add vines and other details around as well. But since the map is in such a near-complete state as it is, there's not too much motivation to put a lot of time into it. I might work more on other projects than I have on this map for the few days before publishing, but I'll definitely continue to work on the aesthetics.
all's fair in love and melodies
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
May 06 2012 23:23 GMT
#19
On May 07 2012 03:15 monitor wrote:
You can just throw down some trees to make it look nicer ^^ Also generate foliage!

I agree with Superouman that the middle is a bit boring and could use a tower. The side towers are alright, but I don't think they're necessary. Drop spotting should be more about skill than just sitting at a tower imo.



Having a tower that allows drop spotting makes it a strategic asset with gravity on the map, distinct from other assets we've seen before. Whether or not this should exist essentially on the main push path, the chokiest path, the shortest path, and in a choky pocket, that is plenty questionable, and I lean towards probably not, but worth a shot.

The general concept though is not skill reducing like you suggest. If terran wants to send out drops, they need to shoo overlords with a viking or just hope they dodge. That is still the case here, except they also need to push out to the tower to get their drop through. Is there one ling? Your single stim marine just cleared your drop path. Is there creep at the tower? How much do you commit with then? Do they have a baneling trap on the ramp or choke? A flank waiting or a zergling group waiting to grab a marine squad? I think it creates much more depth than the usual "fly around the outside derp". And the dynamics change a lot in all matchups.

The middle is plenty useful and interesting once people have expanded away from each other to the half 4th of a far corner. A tower there would make the middle too choky / deathball favoured imo, as well as boring.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10151 Posts
May 07 2012 00:31 GMT
#20
i think what you are forcing the players to do is double expand so they get the full amount of gas after the natural. dont know if this will be a problem or not.

but this is a great map. i really like it.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
Inside.Out
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada569 Posts
May 07 2012 00:31 GMT
#21
id say put a tower on the outside corner of each of those middle high ground blocks.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
May 07 2012 03:28 GMT
#22
On May 07 2012 09:31 EcstatiC wrote:
id say put a tower on the outside corner of each of those middle high ground blocks.

I'd do this, and add 1 in the center, and keep the 4 on the outside.

We need a 4p map with 9 watchtowers. Shake things up a little!
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
May 10 2012 20:13 GMT
#23
Alright, I updated the map with aesthetics adjustments, a watchtower in the middle now and none on the sides, and some losb. I also added some critters. Please tell me what you think.
all's fair in love and melodies
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
June 27 2012 22:26 GMT
#24
ESV Golden Valley will make it's debut in the ESV TV Korean Weekly Open this weekend.

I've updated the OP showing the latest version. I've polished up the aesthetics a fair bit and fixed some bugs. It's now uploaded on KR, SEA, EU and NA servers.
all's fair in love and melodies
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 27 2012 23:19 GMT
#25
I feel trolled. When did this happen?
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
June 27 2012 23:25 GMT
#26
On June 28 2012 08:19 NewSunshine wrote:
I feel trolled. When did this happen?


There's an announcement coming soon. Anyway congrats on getting Golden Valley into the weekly and I look forward to seeing it!!
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
June 27 2012 23:52 GMT
#27
On June 28 2012 08:19 NewSunshine wrote:
I feel trolled. When did this happen?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There was supposed to be an announced, but Golden Valley got into the pool before it ever came out.
all's fair in love and melodies
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 28 2012 00:10 GMT
#28
On June 28 2012 08:25 monitor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 08:19 NewSunshine wrote:
I feel trolled. When did this happen?


There's an announcement coming soon. Anyway congrats on getting Golden Valley into the weekly and I look forward to seeing it!!

Is there some new layout he's come up with that I'm missing or something? I understand one will work on a WIP with people through Skype weeks before posting, but I'm stumped. I don't see why he's being added to the ESV roster. Timetwister was a sudden move, and one that looked premature, but even that was a more justified addition than this. Gfire has a few WIP's so far besides this, but I don't see why he's considered a solid addition to the same team that has Jacky on it. Maybe there's some overriding goal they're trying to accomplish, but I don't understand.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
SFGIANTS91
Profile Joined October 2011
United States51 Posts
June 28 2012 00:32 GMT
#29
love it
DUDE! Where's my mothership???
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 00:32:52
June 28 2012 00:32 GMT
#30
On June 28 2012 09:10 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 08:25 monitor wrote:
On June 28 2012 08:19 NewSunshine wrote:
I feel trolled. When did this happen?


There's an announcement coming soon. Anyway congrats on getting Golden Valley into the weekly and I look forward to seeing it!!

Is there some new layout he's come up with that I'm missing or something? I understand one will work on a WIP with people through Skype weeks before posting, but I'm stumped. I don't see why he's being added to the ESV roster. Timetwister was a sudden move, and one that looked premature, but even that was a more justified addition than this. Gfire has a few WIP's so far besides this, but I don't see why he's considered a solid addition to the same team that has Jacky on it. Maybe there's some overriding goal they're trying to accomplish, but I don't understand.

Sorry, if I had known you had that attitude I wouldn't have responded so... lightheartedly.

On June 28 2012 09:32 SFGIANTS91 wrote:
love it

Thanks. ^^
all's fair in love and melodies
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
June 28 2012 00:34 GMT
#31
On June 28 2012 09:10 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 08:25 monitor wrote:
On June 28 2012 08:19 NewSunshine wrote:
I feel trolled. When did this happen?


There's an announcement coming soon. Anyway congrats on getting Golden Valley into the weekly and I look forward to seeing it!!

Is there some new layout he's come up with that I'm missing or something? I understand one will work on a WIP with people through Skype weeks before posting, but I'm stumped. I don't see why he's being added to the ESV roster. Timetwister was a sudden move, and one that looked premature, but even that was a more justified addition than this. Gfire has a few WIP's so far besides this, but I don't see why he's considered a solid addition to the same team that has Jacky on it. Maybe there's some overriding goal they're trying to accomplish, but I don't understand.


Luckily for us only I have to understand. I have yet to make a bad choice, give me some trust.
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 00:46:15
June 28 2012 00:39 GMT
#32
A good map is a good map. Congratulations. If anything this should be exciting for budding mapmakers, not met with jealousy. If you pull off a good map you can be rewarded.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 28 2012 00:43 GMT
#33
On June 28 2012 09:32 Gfire wrote:
Sorry, if I had known you had that attitude I wouldn't have responded so... lightheartedly.

I have nothing against you at all, and I'm glad to see you make more maps instead of just commenting on them. My point is that unless Diamond knows something I don't, it would appear ESV is lowering their standards. You're not a bad mapmaker, but to be acquired by ESV so quickly seems... off. Who knows, I'll give it some time.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
June 28 2012 00:51 GMT
#34
On June 28 2012 09:43 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 09:32 Gfire wrote:
Sorry, if I had known you had that attitude I wouldn't have responded so... lightheartedly.

I have nothing against you at all, and I'm glad to see you make more maps instead of just commenting on them. My point is that unless Diamond knows something I don't, it would appear ESV is lowering their standards. You're not a bad mapmaker, but to be acquired by ESV so quickly seems... off. Who knows, I'll give it some time.


If I didn't know things other people did not do you think I would have helped raised the premiere map team?
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
June 28 2012 00:52 GMT
#35
On June 28 2012 09:43 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 09:32 Gfire wrote:
Sorry, if I had known you had that attitude I wouldn't have responded so... lightheartedly.

I have nothing against you at all, and I'm glad to see you make more maps instead of just commenting on them. My point is that unless Diamond knows something I don't, it would appear ESV is lowering their standards. You're not a bad mapmaker, but to be acquired by ESV so quickly seems... off. Who knows, I'll give it some time.


We recruited him because he showed that knows the basics of the editor, he responds well to criticism, and has a good attitude.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
June 28 2012 01:12 GMT
#36
On June 28 2012 09:43 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 09:32 Gfire wrote:
Sorry, if I had known you had that attitude I wouldn't have responded so... lightheartedly.

I have nothing against you at all, and I'm glad to see you make more maps instead of just commenting on them. My point is that unless Diamond knows something I don't, it would appear ESV is lowering their standards. You're not a bad mapmaker, but to be acquired by ESV so quickly seems... off. Who knows, I'll give it some time.

You mean because I don't post a lot of maps? I mean, obviously I hadn't gotten a map into a pool before joining ESV, but that's kind of a steep requirement. It's hard enough to get a map into pools even on a team. But I've been making maps since the day the editor came out during beta, so it's not exactly quickly.

But you know, I can't say I wasn't a bit surprised, myself. And I hope to prove that I can be up to those high standards.
all's fair in love and melodies
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 01:32:36
June 28 2012 01:30 GMT
#37
On June 28 2012 09:52 monitor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 09:43 NewSunshine wrote:
On June 28 2012 09:32 Gfire wrote:
Sorry, if I had known you had that attitude I wouldn't have responded so... lightheartedly.

I have nothing against you at all, and I'm glad to see you make more maps instead of just commenting on them. My point is that unless Diamond knows something I don't, it would appear ESV is lowering their standards. You're not a bad mapmaker, but to be acquired by ESV so quickly seems... off. Who knows, I'll give it some time.


We recruited him because he showed that knows the basics of the editor, he responds well to criticism, and has a good attitude.

So do I :o
But I don't expect to be picked up by any team any time soon...
A good map is a good map. Congratulations. If anything this should be exciting for budding mapmakers, not met with jealousy. If you pull off a good map you can be rewarded.

I agree also, but this is a pretty competitive community so every budding mapmaker is trying to get recognized.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 02:06:39
June 28 2012 02:04 GMT
#38
I like the map but I feel it is just way too similar to Whirlwind, especially since WW is now just starting to get so popular with GSL picking it up.

I also dislike the 1/2 bases for 3rds/4ths. Especially since it's all double wide ramps to get those bases good luck against any 2 base timing push. Yet even if you meet them as they are crossing in the middle of the map they also have all those ramps to defend on. I also dislike that you can cliffwalk from one of the thirds into the main. It'll only promote 1 or 2 base play even more, it'll be a perfect spot for terran to leapfrog tanks/bio, it'll be perfect for blink stalkers and forcefields (especially with the 2x-ramp).

Congratulations on getting it into ESV map pool, that's awesome and it'll be a blast to see games played on your map. Unfortunately I don't care for this map just because as I said earlier I just feel it's a worse version of Whirlwind. (This isn't a bad thing at all though because it's still a great map!)

Keep up the good work though bud!
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 28 2012 02:12 GMT
#39
On June 28 2012 09:52 monitor wrote:
We recruited him because he showed that knows the basics of the editor, he responds well to criticism, and has a good attitude.

I'm not so sure that makes for sufficient criteria when it comes to joining the 'premiere mapping team'. It's a good reason for ESV members to give comments and feedback for his maps, and if he proves himself at some point then recruit him, but I'm saying this looks like a snap decision. And also, if you're looking for mappers that have maps with potential, respond well to criticism, and work well with already established mapmakers, what's wrong with waiting for MotM?

I don't want to come off as rude, and if I did I probably overreacted. I don't wish to argue with you guys.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
June 28 2012 02:42 GMT
#40
On June 28 2012 11:12 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 09:52 monitor wrote:
We recruited him because he showed that knows the basics of the editor, he responds well to criticism, and has a good attitude.

I'm not so sure that makes for sufficient criteria when it comes to joining the 'premiere mapping team'. It's a good reason for ESV members to give comments and feedback for his maps, and if he proves himself at some point then recruit him, but I'm saying this looks like a snap decision. And also, if you're looking for mappers that have maps with potential, respond well to criticism, and work well with already established mapmakers, what's wrong with waiting for MotM?

I don't want to come off as rude, and if I did I probably overreacted. I don't wish to argue with you guys.


It wasn't a rushed decision at all, we took weeks (if not months) to decide who was right. "Basic skills of the editor" wasn't exactly what I meant - we were looking for somebody who was really good. And I'm not saying you or anybody else isn't "really good", I just mean that I shouldn't have been so loose with the explanation. Another major factor was how active and dedicated the person was, and Gfire showed that he is to us. All of the ESV members agreed that we wanted some fresh blood that we could help along the way (we were getting less and less active- and I can tell you now, we've got a lot of projects in the works). Anyway lets limit this to a skype chat from now on so we don't derail this thread too much. Just wait for the announcement otherwise.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-29 07:45:20
June 29 2012 07:30 GMT
#41
Great Map. I like the half-thirds.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
SanD__
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands28 Posts
June 29 2012 12:47 GMT
#42
Sweet aesthetics, the texture looks very natural and I like the Doodads that you have added. I am very interested to see how the map mechanics will play out, so I will definitely watch the ESV TV Korean Weekly Open this weekend.
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential. -Winston S. Churchill
winpark
Profile Joined January 2011
Korea (South)68 Posts
June 29 2012 16:34 GMT
#43
really "a BIT inspired by Whirlwind"?
Winpark, author of Daybreak, Whirlwind, and Merry go round, SC2 Mapping team CruX
Superouman
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
France2195 Posts
June 29 2012 17:12 GMT
#44
No need to be inspired by whirlwind, this expand layout is very standard
Search "[SO]" on B.net to find all my maps ||| Cloud Kingdom / Turbo Cruise '84 / Bone Temple / Eternal Empire / Zen / Purity and Industry / Golden Wall / Fortitude / Beckett Industries / Waterfall
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
June 29 2012 17:15 GMT
#45
On June 29 2012 16:30 kim9067 wrote:
Great Map. I like the half-thirds.

Thanks.

On June 29 2012 21:47 SanD__ wrote:
Sweet aesthetics, the texture looks very natural and I like the Doodads that you have added. I am very interested to see how the map mechanics will play out, so I will definitely watch the ESV TV Korean Weekly Open this weekend.

Thanks, I'll try to get some close-up shots done soon.

On June 30 2012 01:34 winpark wrote:
really "a BIT inspired by Whirlwind"?

Maybe more than a bit. It was originally a 2p though, which gave a very different impression. The emphasis of that map was supposed to be the bridge and central high ground pod, which I hope remains true even in this version, but I agree that it's similar to Whirlwind in the overall impression you get looking at it.

To be honest I thought it was too much like Whirlwind to be an ESV map and used in the KW. You can blame Diamond for that.

Fortunately I think, while they look similar, they will play quite differently, so the actual product that the viewers are getting won't be impaired too much, even if I'm embarrassed to have a map that's so similar to another one used in tournament play.
all's fair in love and melodies
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-29 17:23:49
June 29 2012 17:23 GMT
#46
On June 30 2012 02:12 Superouman wrote:
No need to be inspired by whirlwind, this expand layout is very standard

its practically the same map =/ well at least when whirlwind was 6min1gas at all 3rds
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Aeceus
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom1278 Posts
June 29 2012 17:27 GMT
#47
What does it really offer that Whirlwind doesn't? From what i've seen they are pretty much the same map
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-29 18:36:56
June 29 2012 18:33 GMT
#48
On June 30 2012 02:23 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2012 02:12 Superouman wrote:
No need to be inspired by whirlwind, this expand layout is very standard

its practically the same map =/ well at least when whirlwind was 6min1gas at all 3rds

I feel that although it's similar to a suspicious degree, it will still play differently. Being a smaller map, with 3rd's and 4th's that have less resources, the games on it will probably feel more aggressive, and less passive like what Whirlwind lends to. All that said, however, I'm not impressed with the map overall, it's more or less a copy of a bone-standard map, and I don't think it should be an ESV map. Note I say the map, not the mapmaker, I do hope Gfire's next idea is more interesting, and with ESV's help it will become something worth making. We'll see.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
June 30 2012 03:04 GMT
#49
I actually edited my comment from saying that it was too similar to Whirlwind to the compliment, but since the original mapmaker's here, I guess I'll say my thoughts.
Even whirlwind had a similar idea of half-thirds, and then he scrapped it. So basically, this map would be a prototype of whirlwind, which i really don't like. Most of ESV's maps were original - I don't think so with this one. Sorry...

Almost everything is the same, except the center, which in it self is also similar to an earlier version of whirlwind.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-19 19:00:36
July 19 2012 18:47 GMT
#50
I'm trying out some new custom textures for the map. What do you guys think?

+ Show Spoiler [before] +
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [after] +
[image loading]


+ Show Spoiler [closeups] +
[image loading]

[image loading]


Poll: Are the new colors good?

Completely Ugly (16)
 
41%

Great (13)
 
33%

Neutral (10)
 
26%

39 total votes

Your vote: Are the new colors good?

(Vote): Completely Ugly
(Vote): Neutral
(Vote): Great




Edit: Btw, can a mod change the title of this thread to "[M] (4) ESV Golden Valley" please?
all's fair in love and melodies
ScorpSCII
Profile Joined April 2012
Denmark499 Posts
July 19 2012 18:52 GMT
#51
I like the new colors, but still dislike the dirt areas. You could try mix in a bit of grass in there as well.
Mapmaker | Author of Atlas, Rao Mesa & Paralda
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
July 19 2012 19:02 GMT
#52
Sure, I'll add some more grass to the dirty areas.

I also added a few closeups to show the new textures.
all's fair in love and melodies
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
July 19 2012 19:17 GMT
#53
On June 30 2012 02:27 Aeceus wrote:
What does it really offer that Whirlwind doesn't? From what i've seen they are pretty much the same map


The center of this map has some interesting hills. I think the hill features there are pretty different from whirlwind, even if the basic layout and geo features on the outside are the same.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
LemonyTang
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom428 Posts
July 19 2012 19:52 GMT
#54
I played this map on doa's show 'cartographer' in a TvZ where I went mech into sky terran. I'm a big fan of playing new maps, but I didn't really like this one too much. My criticism is from a terran perspective, especially a gas hungry one so I apologise in advance for bias.

It just feels to me like there's not enough bases, especially with how open the centre of the map is, the gap between your fourth and expanding to a new natural feels very difficult to move to, because the map is still relatively small.

The map also plays very strangely in non-cross positions, but that isn't so much of an issue I guess. I do like how many great positions there are to move around with, especially as you take the third base and set up your defensive position.

The new textures are more fitting to the map name I suppose, but I don't get why mapmakers, blizzard or otherwise, insist on making maps that are so depressing with their textures. This is just my opinion but I'd love to see more maps with tilesets like ohana, frigid pass etc..
Mvp #1
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
July 19 2012 20:08 GMT
#55
On July 20 2012 04:17 Blazinghand wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2012 02:27 Aeceus wrote:
What does it really offer that Whirlwind doesn't? From what i've seen they are pretty much the same map


The center of this map has some interesting hills. I think the hill features there are pretty different from whirlwind, even if the basic layout and geo features on the outside are the same.

Yeah, I at least find the games on it interesting and not too similar to whirlwind. But the concepts aren't too different so I don't think there's really room to have, say, both in the same map pool.

On July 20 2012 04:52 LemonyTang wrote:
I played this map on doa's show 'cartographer' in a TvZ where I went mech into sky terran. I'm a big fan of playing new maps, but I didn't really like this one too much. My criticism is from a terran perspective, especially a gas hungry one so I apologise in advance for bias.

It just feels to me like there's not enough bases, especially with how open the centre of the map is, the gap between your fourth and expanding to a new natural feels very difficult to move to, because the map is still relatively small.

The map also plays very strangely in non-cross positions, but that isn't so much of an issue I guess. I do like how many great positions there are to move around with, especially as you take the third base and set up your defensive position.


Yeah, I could see how mech could be tough vs zerg on this map. Maybe the tight chokes and forward positions can make up for the difficulty to get gas as T, but it does feel like you'd be better off trying more drop play with bio. Cross positions feel a little hard for TvZ post-patch, as I did make this before then. Hopefully there'll be some mech TvZs in the KW so we get some more games to compare.

The new textures are more fitting to the map name I suppose, but I don't get why mapmakers, blizzard or otherwise, insist on making maps that are so depressing with their textures. This is just my opinion but I'd love to see more maps with tilesets like ohana, frigid pass etc..

Well, I suppose it's fairly subjective. Generally I try to use bright lighting so it's not depressing. I think lighting might contribute to the feeling more than textures. I find the darker tilesets look really nice with brighter lighting.

Still, I think everyone feels differently about what's depressing and what's not. A snow map, for me, is far more depressing than this, so it was interesting to me that you brought that up.
all's fair in love and melodies
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
July 19 2012 20:29 GMT
#56
On July 20 2012 05:08 Gfire wrote:
Still, I think everyone feels differently about what's depressing and what's not. A snow map, for me, is far more depressing than this, so it was interesting to me that you brought that up.

WUT.

Anyway, I say completely ugly. Not only do I think the original is straight up better looking, but I like how it fit the name in a not so direct way, the atmosphere created by all the elements fits the name golden valley, but now the textures are screaming "LOOK, IT'S GOLD". Honestly, I've seen a few games on it so far, and the original aesthetic was better than I thought it would be, I don't think this is an improvement. Stick with what you've got.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
RUFinalBoss
Profile Joined May 2012
United States266 Posts
July 19 2012 22:22 GMT
#57
thank you for this :D gogo ESV
Story Of My SC2 Love Life, Meets ROOT. ROOT Disbands :( JOINS COL :D COL JOINS MVP :D HYPE! Col.MvP go byebye ): BUT THEN! ROOT GAMING IS BACK OMGOMGOMG qxc - Minigun - ROOTerdam - Catz - Drewbie - TaiLS - KeeN
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
July 19 2012 23:40 GMT
#58
On July 20 2012 05:29 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 05:08 Gfire wrote:
Still, I think everyone feels differently about what's depressing and what's not. A snow map, for me, is far more depressing than this, so it was interesting to me that you brought that up.

WUT.

Anyway, I say completely ugly. Not only do I think the original is straight up better looking, but I like how it fit the name in a not so direct way, the atmosphere created by all the elements fits the name golden valley, but now the textures are screaming "LOOK, IT'S GOLD". Honestly, I've seen a few games on it so far, and the original aesthetic was better than I thought it would be, I don't think this is an improvement. Stick with what you've got.


Snow maps are kinda depressing... Like no life and everything.
The MOST depressing map though, is one of those maps where it's theres like protoss cliffs with natural cliffs, it's so ergh... If you do it right, it's ok, but just doing it badly makes it depressing.

The new textures aren't gold. We need more golden textures.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
July 29 2012 18:17 GMT
#59
I updated the map a bit. There's now a quite small gap between the mains and the adjacent thirds. I also added some closeup shots to the OP.
all's fair in love and melodies
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
July 29 2012 18:57 GMT
#60
On July 30 2012 03:17 Gfire wrote:
I updated the map a bit. There's now a quite small gap between the mains and the adjacent thirds. I also added some closeup shots to the OP.


Just to take out the cliffwalk?
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
July 29 2012 22:17 GMT
#61
On July 30 2012 03:57 EatThePath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2012 03:17 Gfire wrote:
I updated the map a bit. There's now a quite small gap between the mains and the adjacent thirds. I also added some closeup shots to the OP.


Just to take out the cliffwalk?

No, there's still a small place where you can cliff walk. Just about a 2.5ish gap over most of it to make elevator play a bit trickier. Still possible, it was just a little too easy before. TBH it's pretty small so not a huge difference.
all's fair in love and melodies
Perdac Curall
Profile Joined June 2011
242 Posts
July 29 2012 22:35 GMT
#62
Reminds me of Whirlwind but that's good since I like Whirlwind!
If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it? -Sith Lord Bertrand Russell
Veloh15
Profile Joined January 2012
United States161 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 16:57:46
August 08 2012 16:35 GMT
#63
Hey with the new patch it is impossible for you to switch 2 players to the opposing teams. Hope you can fix this fast! I really enjoyed playing on this map!
On NA severs.
ScorpSCII
Profile Joined April 2012
Denmark499 Posts
August 08 2012 16:50 GMT
#64
On August 09 2012 01:35 Veloh15 wrote:
Hey with the new patch it is impossible for you to switch 2 players to the opposing teams. Hope you can fix this fast! I really enjoyed playing on this map!


Gfire, I have updated my thread to fix this issue.
Mapmaker | Author of Atlas, Rao Mesa & Paralda
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
August 08 2012 17:37 GMT
#65
On August 09 2012 01:50 ScorpSCII wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 01:35 Veloh15 wrote:
Hey with the new patch it is impossible for you to switch 2 players to the opposing teams. Hope you can fix this fast! I really enjoyed playing on this map!


Gfire, I have updated my thread to fix this issue.

Thanks! I've updated it and uploaded to NA. Having trouble logging into EU right now, maybe 1.5.1 isn't out yet there or something?
all's fair in love and melodies
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
August 08 2012 18:57 GMT
#66
Oh, you DID spice up the aesthetics. Very nice. Any chance we could get close ups?
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
August 08 2012 19:22 GMT
#67
On August 09 2012 03:57 Aunvilgod wrote:
Oh, you DID spice up the aesthetics. Very nice. Any chance we could get close ups?

There are closeups.
all's fair in love and melodies
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