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@Ghost
What you describe is kinda what we already have for the Ghost. Its stats and spell have remained the same since the summer.
>>>+ Show Spoiler + - Cost 100/50 (BW 75/25 though)
- Faster movement speed than Marines, Marauders and Medics
- Its attack deals 10 damage vs everything and has longer attack range, compared to BW.
(In BW it deals 10 dmg with 100% vs light, 50% vs medium, 25% vs armored.)
- Its spell - Shock - costs 50 energy and can target a mechanical unit. A missile will move towards the target. Upon impact, that unit will be slowed for 10 seconds, can not attack, and is undeployed. (Works on Siege Tanks & Warp Prism)
Shock has casting range 11. (Siege Tanks have attack range 12) The opponent can dodge the missile by loading the unit into a Dropship/Warp Prism or burrow/cloak it.
- Can Cloak and use Nukes.
- Is a mid-game unit in Sbow, a lategame unit in BW.
If I understood you all, the suggestions are:
+ Show Spoiler + - Make Ghost a combat unit (better damage, movement speed and Stim pack)
- A spell that undeploys Tanks & Lurkers
- When he is cloaked, he "silences" nearby spellcasters
My thoughts:
+ Show Spoiler +Ghost should mainly be a supporting character. I agree. I don´t think it shall replace the Marauder and become a combat unit. It might however need better stats, for example faster movement speed. Being a supporting caster fits better with the theme and feeling of the unit. Maybe Shock can work vs Lurkers too. Cloaked and silence neraby units, would that be useful? Vs larger enemy armies, they will have detection anyway. Why move up and silence a caster instead of just killing it from a distance?
My problems with Shock:It is an "all-or-nothing" spell, at least vs Reavers. Try it in the Unit Tester. A bunch of Bio units with 1-2 Ghosts vs a bunch of Gateway units with a Reaver + Warp Prism. If Ghosts hit the Reaver or the Warp prism, the Bio will win. If not, the Reaver can kill the entire Bio army alone. That kinda determines everything..? And it does not feel fun to play with or observe? (Ofc Reavers insane splash damage contributes to this problem as well) Vs what other units is the spell useful? Maybe vs enemy Siege Tanks. Battlecruisers? Carriers? Colossus if that remains in the game? In other words, it is not especially useful to get Ghosts, which I think is a bit sad since that unit has potential to become fun. Some have suggested to make Shock dodgeable to reward more micro. If a projectile shall be dodgeable, it must target an area. Which means it needs to have an AoE-effect upon impact. As long as the spell targets a single unit, the missile will follow that unit.
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@Release date
Please release it as soon as possible, it's pointless to delay it to january 21 just because it completes 2 years of project.
+ Show Spoiler +
Well, I do not delay it to January 21 only because of the 2 year date. I think that is a decent time limit to fix the remaining things that must be done before the release:
- Fix bugs
- Complete unfinished units & spells
- Fix the map pool
- Fix all tooltips in the game with correct information
- Xiphias is working on a promo-video
- Update the opening post with pictures & text
- Update the Starbow-Wiki
- Write the text for the "release-thread" I intend to do in the SC2 General forum. (Maybe on other places too)
- Find ways to make this game easy to get into for "newcomers".. Thread in SC2 Strategy? Make short tutorial videos who explains the content in the game?
Maybe it does not sound like super much, but things take more time than expected. I rather make a good release instead of something rushed.
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Not necessarily to have this wall of text in this post
More info in a post below.
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I think the best form for ghost ability is:
*emp-ish radius of aoe, 25 or 50 mana:
*fast projectile (current form is way too slow)
*does not slow units affected (lame dynamic, once you're tagged you cannot micro anymore, that's one of the biggest problems with the current form)
*affects siege tanks, lurkers and dropship/warp prism/overlord:
unsieges/unburrows tanks/lurkers and instantly unloads dropship/prism/ovy
*affected targets are immune to the spell for 3-ish seconds
This means siegetanks and lurkers can quickly burrow again and at least get 1 shot off and this also means that bio can actually fight vs mech when they have a big enough advantage. This punishes zergs that clump up their lurkers.
And last, this gives the possibility for a bio player to mix in a couple ghosts (like 2-3) and countermicro the warp prism + reaver, when the reaver gets dropped when toss does not want it, the terran can quickly gun it down OR make the warp prism unable to run off with the reaver again.
This could also feel very punishing when players are not careful with their units, so it will make more room for dances/jukes (missing 2-ish missiles with the ghost does not mean the end off the game, because it is a cheap spell) and greatly reward micro (experienced players will probably stomp newer players cause of these dynamics, but i think that's a good thing, feels like some BW-dynamics).
Ghost will be ineffective to mass and effectively filling the gap that marauder could not fill. Marauder can be removed (it is not helpful anyway, for example vs dragoons they are probably worse than a marine due to being armored).
=> new form of pvt-openings: marine/medic/ghost -> push -> transition to biomech (add tanks) to have more firepower vs toss and meanwhile you don't get insta-crushed by storm because of the second ghost-ability (yet to fill) that soft-counters templar.
So rine/medic/ghost/tank feels like a solid mid-game composition.
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I did some suggestions to kabel via PM, he kinda liked them.
He wants me to send this here so you guys see the changes, and can give feedback if u want
Marines 40hp (this is bw value)
Zerglings 0.74 attackspeed (0.22 attackspeednerf)
zealots 1.3 attackspeed (0.18attackspeed buff)
The attackspeeds is taking the 7% reduction in consideration.
Terran
Factory upgrades buildtime bw value
spidermines 50/50 (50/50 cheaper)
Goliath range 100/100(this is bw value)
techlab 25/25 (Would like to test this)
Protoss
Changes against mech in particular
Dragoon range 150/100
cyber 150 (Would like to test this)
Changes versus zerg in particular:
Archon +1 range
Citadel 100/100
Templar archieves 150/150
Hightemplar "hallucination" redesigned,
spawns 1unit in protoss arsenal for 50mana(even units u dont own)
The relevant part is flying units, so protoss can scout via templar tech
Zerg
Roach(this is work in progress)
Lair 10sec bt faster
Overseer 25/25~ (Not sure what value the overseer should get, but i feel it should get cheaper.)
1) To encourage better scouting options for zerg(better than in bw even)
2) Since detection overall for zerg is nerfed
3) Maybe even add 1-2 armor on the overseer
(I forgot to write this change to kabel, hope he dont mind. Although i know he wanted to reduce price of him lasttime i suggested it)
Zerg already have the new queens.
Cheaper sunken, and spore. Which also can root.
Cheaper hydra range.
Can upgtade overlorddrop, and overlordspeed on every hatchery when lair is done(wasnt like that in bw)
And ofcourse, the new roach which i think will be a core-unit in pvz.
And overall good versus mechplay to.
(Also note about zerg. His spells are unfinished.)
I will write some words why these changes are made
down below in spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +
TVP
1base play is usually quite bad for terran
Building more than 1fac before command center makes the terran player behind, while he gets more vulnerable against drops and frontal attacks.
The gameplay from terran usually involves around getting 5-10 tanks after his expansion is up to defend against everything.
I talk in general here.
With these changes, i wanna encourage somewhat more openings from terran side, while not getting to far behind or to weak to some stuff.
For example, he can now build goliaths without armory if he have techlabs on the factories(this is a balance decision against new stargate for toss, but at the same time it will most likely encourage some more builds)
Overall the mech gets more buffed against protoss than vice versa, but the things against zerg adds up to.
Overall i found it quite good
pvz
In broodwar, protoss is actually quite "weak" if it werent for the bisustyle.
The meta in pvz is quite lame imo, and i wanna encourage some new things.
First things first, if protoss can now scout better with the new hallucinations. Thats one big step in the right direction.
Because now protoss doesnt have to rush stargate->build a fast flying unit to scout, he can now scout with his templar tech which will encourage more agressive builds from protoss.
Overall i wanna give protoss some alternatives to FFE->stargate/corsair
AND also, to encourage protoss to have the option to NOT add corsairs in pvz if he can defend well with archons/storms/cannons
(Just to note here, in bw. 1base play is bad opening in pvz)
The archon +1 range is for 3reasons,
1)Defend against mutas better, since mutas usually dodge the archon and snipe probes/cannons/stuff.
2)If reaver gets nerfed. That means protoss are actually much weaker especially lategame or when they normally add reavers. So its a small compensation, which most likely doesnt 100% compensate
3)So the archon is slightly better against terrans bioplay, if it now becomes available.
If its true it becomes more available, i hope it will encourage protoss to not rush to storm or reavers, and stay more on actionbased play such as speedlots/archons with drops etc
Iam aware of the stalker. Hard to take it into 100% considderation for now since its still a work in progress unit.
Although, it doesnt rly aid protoss armee and its still used to help defend against mutas, i still feel the +1 on archon is a good thing
Marines,zerglings,zealots
+ Show Spoiler +
Iam not taking into considderation how much they miss, attack-delay in this now for now.
That is a discussion on its own.
Marines with 40hp encourage more things than 45hp.
At the same time, the 45hp doesnt "solve" the real problem.
I begin with the "problem" the marines had.
Zerglings was so good against marines, and people said it was because of the engine, but what is actually true is that stim is nerfed quite heavy.
2-3dps nerf on the marines.
What do 40hp encourage:
Zealot 2shot stim marines
archon 1shot stim marines
Sunkens 3shot marines with 1armor
(with 45hp, marines need 2armor to get 3shotted)
I take for granted lurkers will become bw value to about this
so 1armor will mean 3shots from an unupgraded lurker.
Why nerf zergling attack?
Two things:
1) Compensation against marines
2) Make zealot vs zerglings more "fair".
Why buff zealot attack?
1) More "fair" against zerglings
2) Slightly better against bio terranplay
All-in all, i dont know what will happen with storm, reaver, cannons.
On paper right now(testmap) they are all nerfed)
I would love if reaver got nerfed to be less of a hardcounter to marines, and zerglings.
That is why zealot vs ling is a cool change imo.
(Note, that 3zerglings win vs 1zealot, right now. WITHOUT crack upgrade)
Bonus change. About ghost
(Kabel disapproved at first, i suggested some new stuff. He havent responded yet. (Its a bonus only which will maybe not happen. Even if u like it)
+ Show Spoiler +
Remove marauder - add in ghost in that position.
Redesign ghost abit. I found this okay with this unit because of two reasons;
1) he was way underused in bw
2) He is pretty boring to play with in sc2
More speed, more damage.
range 7(although it outrange lurkers, maybe 6 is better. Can be tweaked ofcourse)
hp: 80 (to live through aoe better than marine)
Damage: 15explosive. (can be tweaked ofcourse
Still light unit, like the marine.
Slow attack speed is what iam thinking.
Like the dragoon or something.
movementspeed: 2.8 (a bit faster than dragoon)
So two "new" abiltiies.
50,75 or 100mana cast. Range 8.
1) His "undeploy" ability.
Its solids suggestion at first.
But i want it to be single-target spell. Fast projectile(not dodgeable).
It makes siegetanks unsiege. Lurkers unburrow.
It also makes stalker not able to use blink(more on stalker later here, i have a niche with him)
Maybe even make warpprism/dropship/overlord not able to unload/load units to. For maybe only 2-3seconds.
2)
His cloak ability - redesigned slightly.
It silence nearby spellcasters.
Same cloak as the new cloak on banshee
- He get a speedboost that deaccelerates downwards.
3.2, 3.1, 3, 2.9, 28(his base)
This is his cloak in 5seconds.
I wanna encourage the cloak to still be able to used to harass, in combat. Tactical, strattegic.
Even if opponent have detection. Make the cloak a fun ability and not a, well kinda boring ability otherwise imo atleast.
Since dragoons have less mobility than ghost.
Ghost is still light unit.
My purpose here is to give stalker some play:
Since the stalker is a special unit, one of a kind. We give him bonus damage to Spellcasters(psionic type), which the ghost is. (The ghost is the most relevant)
This way we might see stalker as coreunit in pvt if he goes heavy ghost.
All in all, i would like ghost to be a core unit in tvp(if terran goes bioplay)
And also a core-unit in tvt, if one side decides to go bioplay
Against zerg, not sure how i would like to see him play. Not a unit u go in general atleast, but once in a while against lurkers instead of tanks if he want some more mobility
Could be pretty cool if u ask me atleast.
Any comments?
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@The detail balance above
+ Show Spoiler +I refer to your type of suggestion as detail balance. Foxxan, you are among our best players, both in Sbow and BW. I do not play actively enough, nor am I a skilled enough player to determine detail balance like this quote: Marines 40hp (this is bw value)
Zerglings 0.74 attackspeed (0.22 attackspeednerf)
zealots 1.3 attackspeed (0.18attackspeed buff)
The attackspeeds is taking the 7% reduction in consideration.
Terran
Factory upgrades buildtime bw value
spidermines 50/50 (50/50 cheaper)
Goliath range 100/100(this is bw value)
techlab 25/25 (Would like to test this)
Protoss
Changes against mech in particular
Dragoon range 150/100
cyber 150 (Would like to test this)
Changes versus zerg in particular:
Archon +1 range
Citadel 100/100
Templar archieves 150/150 Just to clarify for everyone reading: At this point, imbalances are not the problem, since we have a small player pool. (And you are an imbalanced player Foxxan ^^ ) Rather the important thing is how to open up a broader metagame, improve the gameplay, but still maintan the balance kinda ok. Which your suggestion seems to do! But it would be nice if other active players can read it too and come with their thoughts. If many players seem to think this sounds fair, it might be worth to give it a try.
Hightemplar "hallucination" redesigned,
spawns 1unit in protoss arsenal for 50mana(even units u dont own)
The relevant part is flying units, so protoss can scout via templar tech
Sounds reasonable. That spell is already completed in the editor. Overseer 25/25~ (Not sure what value the overseer should get, but i feel it should get cheaper.)
1) To encourage better scouting options for zerg(better than in bw even)
2) Since detection overall for zerg is nerfed This was discussed a while ago. Forgot about it. (Zerg has free detection in BW vs Dark templar + Corsair, for those who do not know.) Maybe 25/25 or 0/50 can work.
@General thoughts regarding detail balance
+ Show Spoiler +
Just some general thoughts: How much detail balance shall we put into Starbow at this point?
Personally I am mostly interested in getting the design ok for the last spells + units. Make sure everything feels ok and has a place in the game.
We are kinda limited by our small player pool. If I for example add detailed balance changes to a lot of units, how can we determine if it is good or not, when we have maybe 5 higher level active players?
Maybe later on, when Sbow is released, and the game gets more figured out by more players, will it be possible to make more accurate changes to move away from the BW meta. And we will have more players who can help us to explore it?
@Ghost
+ Show Spoiler +
Stats I played around with in the editor, who felt kinda ok vs other units. (Will ofc be different with human opponents)
Cost 50/100
Life ca 80
Light armor
Damage ca 10-15 vs everything
Quite slow attack speed. (Its a sniper)
Range 7-8
Speed 2.95 (almost as speed Hydra)
The good speed combined with the range allows it to micro vs Tanks, Dragoons, Hydras without taking damage. It can also out range static defence & Lurkers. But I don´t think it is a problem since the damage is still kinda mediocre. This range & speed feels good and fun to micro when I try it in the editor at least.
Possible spells to make:
(Based on ideas in the thread)
This spell works either as a single target or as an area spell.
Launch a projectile at target area. All units inside that area unburrows/unsieges. (Tanks, Warp Prism, Lurker, burrowed Roaches and other burrowed units)
MAYBE can Dropships/Warp prism/Overlord be forced to unload their cargo. (Depends on if I can get it to work. Seems problematic)
Alternative two:
Launch a projectile at target area. All units inside that area unburrows/unsieges.
All units affected can not use spells or abilities for X seconds. (No Blink, Burrow, Siege, Stimpack, Siege, Storm, Load or Unload units etc)
Since the spell is launched at an area, it is dodgeable. Might also help vs Reavers & Warp Prism.
Alternative three:
Two spells:
1) Launch a projectile at target area. All units inside that area unburrows/unsieges. Dropships are forced to drop cargo.
2) Launch a projectile at target area. Affected units can not cast spells or use abilities.
Regarding Cloak, I don´t think it shall last only 5-10 seconds. If it does, Ghosts can not be cloaked while calling down a Nuke. Makes Nuke play even worse? If Ghosts shall prevent enemy units from casting spells & using abilities, I think it will be easier to just give them a spell to cast on enemy units.
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@If Stalker shall deal extra damage vs Psionic units
+ Show Spoiler +
Spellcasters in the game:
Medic Ghost Vessel
Queen Viper Defiler
High Templar Sentinel Arbiter
Stalkers deal extra damage vs Light units, which includes: HT & Ghost. Maybe vs Defiler if it becomes Light.
This would be an easy change to implement and it would give some extra use for the Stalker. But P already has the Scout as a unit who can destroy energy and punish spell casters. Does P need a second unit to do this?
If Ghosts become more playable, Stalkers will probably still be a good choice vs them due to their bonus dmg vs Light. (Compared to Goons who suck vs light)
(Keep in mind Protoss air will get a second look, so Phase Missile might be moved)
@Shall all units have overkill?
+ Show Spoiler +In BW, ALL units have overkill. (Even Zerglings & Zealots)
It basically means that when a unit attacks, there is a short delay before the damage is applied. Which means that units can waste firepower on the same target. All units with projectiles already have overkill by default. I have also added it to sieged Siege Tanks & Scourges. (Which punishes clumped up siege Tanks who friendly fires, and punishes Scourges who just A-move)
Should Marine & all melee units gain it as well?
Important for balance & gameplay?
Or just an annoying feature?
Its an easy thing to implement. Im just thinking about potential consequenses with it.
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Some comments about stalker and ghost.
Stalker
Last time i checked it did 8normal damage. It must have been added very recently.
My concern with adding extra damage to light is its a potential problem here.
Since it has blink.
If you want the stalker to function good against mutas, you can add an air-attack to him.
That way, easier to balance/design the ground,and air attacks.
Ghost
I was actually thinking of removing the nuke all together.
Gimmick spell imo.
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+1 to overkill.
Without overkill, when players target fire a zealot with their group of marines, when the zealot dies, the "extra" marines will auto-attack a different zealot during the same time the last shot is fired against the first zealot. IMHO, this is bad simply because the marines are not following orders and is just a give-me. I know some people have said it to be unlikely, but skilled players can double target fire each zealot with sub-groups of the marines if overkill is on.
I'm always up for more of the player's control being what determines everything during the game. Anyway, it just makes things consistent for the specific unit group as well as for all of the units in the game.
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Just some general thoughts: How much detail balance shall we put into Starbow at this point?
As much as we can, with the very small playtesting we do and theory.
Although, we have broodwar to go after, thats quite big.
If something is utterly broken, we fix it. If its something obvious.
If there are smaller details, which breaks from broodwar to much for example, we fix it.
In new scenarios while we cant look at broodwar. Like ghost vs stalker(an example), we have to analyse it. Playtest it. Analyse it more, and so on.
Which can take time ofcourse.(Unless its easy to see the wrongs)
If opinions are disagreed, the one supposing an imbalance
should give facts and good theory behind it, if the situation calls for it
Thats how you balance stuff, by saying "what could he do here".
"What if he did that there instead of this"
Thats why you dont have to be a good player to be a good balancer/designer.
Although you have to understand the game quite high to do it
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+1 to overkill. It demotes deathball and punishes a-moving, but not in a huge sense (except clumping up tanks, but we already got that), so I see only good in this (except a lot of editor work for you ... 
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Denmark697 Posts
How about this for Ghost spell
Disabling shot (75 mana - 0.5 second cast time):
Deals 20 damage to target unit and interrupts any deployment ability. The unit is prevented from using any abilities for 2 seconds after being hit.
It enforces the role as a sniper, and gives real power to target firing important units of any kind.
Another idea.
Tracking shot (25 mana - instant):
Deals 5 damage to target unit and reveals it for 10 seconds. Ghosts have +2 range when attacking a revealed target.
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+1 to overkill. It demotes deathball and punishes a-moving, but not in a huge sense (except clumping up tanks, but we already got that), so I see only good in this (except a lot of editor work for you ...
Too some extent its true for high-damage units such as Siege Tanks. However, with speedlings and Marines it barely matters. If it doesn't take too much time to implement, I don't mind it. But IMO it shouldn't be priortiized above other stuff if it is time-consuming.
My concern with adding extra damage to light is its a potential problem here.
Since it has blink.
If you want the stalker to function good against mutas, you can add an air-attack to him.
That way, easier to balance/design the ground,and air attacks.
I think its absolutely pointless to keep the Stalker in the game if its only supposed to be usefull vs one unit. Therefore, I believe it is also important to give it utility vs Marines and Speedlings.
At 9.5 damage vs light it was absolutely useless vs those units. I think +12 is a better value. It still won't be massable due to how poorly it performs vs non-light units.
But that's also why I don't mind Zealots missing shots and Speedlings not missing shots as that makes Speedlings slightly better vs Zealots than in BW. But when Stalkers are out in the early midgame, the difference has been nullified (roghly).
Due to the way Rift works, it is still possible for Zealots to move out on the map and pressure in the early game - even though they may be cost ineffective against Speedlings in smaller numbers - So I don't think we have to fear the type of gameplay where the Zerg benefits too much in the early game from the stronger speedlings that the advantage just accelerates into the later stages of the game.
@ Ghost
I would probably just go with alternative 1 Kabel. Im not sure though why you don't make it stimable? What's the downside here as long as its default stats are adjusted properly?
I would also make it more expensive and 3 supply as we may risk it becoming too good when (semi)massed if it only costs 50/100 ( a critical mass of Ghosts almost makes Siege Tanks useless)
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Be careful with the ghost ability, the meching player should be able to countermicro by resieging quickly. If ghost can spam this ability on a siegetank then we will go towards meching player turtling for half the game before he dares to move out.
Making supply-cost higher for ghost is an ineffective way to deal with this problem, rather make the spell not spam-able.
On overkill: I agree with hider, it's not gonna matter much on ling/zealot/marine, but if it's easy to implement, then i don't see why not.
Stim on ghost: i dunno, if ghost has stim then it will be treated as a special marauder and just controlled the same way.
The sort of bio-play we want to see is not the same as is used in hots, so we should not make it similar at all. If ghost should truly be a supporting unit then I would not give it stim.
Also mentioned: remove nuke, I disagree, nuke is fun/cool even if it's not used much. It becomes useful in lategame when players have to split their attention to many places and this taxes their multitasking. I don't see a reason to take this out, it's one of the most spectatorfriendly/exciting spells in the game.
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Be careful with the ghost ability, the meching player should be able to countermicro by resieging quickly. If ghost can spam this ability on a siegetank then we will go towards meching player turtling for half the game before he dares to move out.
Making supply-cost higher for ghost is an ineffective way to deal with this problem, rather make the spell not spam-able.
I agree - I am just not totally sure we can figure out an effective way to design the spell in such a way that it doesn't become too good when spammed. I see this mainly as a problem related to Siege Tanks since siegeing up and unsieging takes 6 seconds combined. That's almost unpractical to do in battles and Tanks are also to slow to escape.
So it seems to me that this abilty will automatically be stronger vs Siege Tanks than vs Lurkers for instance.
Any ideas on how to make an appropriate adjustments here? (make it less of a hard-counter vs Siege Tanks while maintaing its strenght vs Lurkers?)
Stim on ghost: i dunno, if ghost has stim then it will be treated as a special marauder and just controlled the same way.
The sort of bio-play we want to see is not the same as is used in hots, so we should not make it similar at all. If ghost should truly be a supporting unit then I would not give it stim.
I just see a large correlation between the fun-nes/microability of the unit and whether it has stim or not. In sc2 it works like this (IMO):
- Non-stimmed bio units = boring
- Stimmed bio units = Fun
- Ghost = Boring.
So I just wonder - What is the downside here to testing Stim w/ the Ghost? It will always be differentiated from Marine/Maurauder due to it having abilities, so I don't think we have to fear that Ghost will feel too similar to those units.
Also mentioned: remove nuke, I disagree, nuke is fun/cool even if it's not used much. It becomes useful in lategame when players have to split their attention to many places and this taxes their multitasking. I don't see a reason to take this out, it's one of the most spectatorfriendly/exciting spells in the game.
Yeh - I agree here, while it probably is a bit gimmicky, its still awesome when we finally see it. If the Ghost also has some utility (along with bio units) Nukes will probably also be used a lot more as well.
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-ghost spell: I think the most simple solution is to just make the unit immune for X seconds against the spell. If you can unsiege a group of tanks you have time enough to move in close with your bio and spread around the tanks to take em out, the ghosts already have effectively denied the first shot of the siege tanks which is really important. So I think it's fine that you cannot spam the ability on the same tanks over and over.
There can be much better solutions though, I don't seem to come up with something creative atm.
-I think the ghost like it is designed right now already is quite fun, I don't think it needs stim to be 'fun'. Ghost in sc2 is a boring counter to templar and it is non-existent in the current tvz/tvt metagame. Ghost not having stim isn't necessarily associated to its boringness.
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-ghost spell: I think the most simple solution is to just make the unit immune for X seconds against the spell. If you can unsiege a group of tanks you have time enough to move in close with your bio and spread around the tanks to take em out, the ghosts already have effectively denied the first shot of the siege tanks which is really important. So I think it's fine that you cannot spam the ability on the same tanks over and over.
There can be much better solutions though, I don't seem to come up with something creative atm.
Hmm perhaps. Its just... I feel we should be a be a bit careful about making too many "rules" for new spells as it can make the game feel a bit unintuitive - I guess Kabel's experiment w/ Abduct is an example of that (where the target became immune after being pulled for x seconds). I really prefer if we could just make one "rule" for each spell/abiliy - but its probably gonna be difficult to maintain that condition while also making it balanced.
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Denmark697 Posts
Look at my take on the disabling spell - It is single target, has a cast time and a high energy cost.
In exchange it gets to be extremely powerful when you pick the right unit to hit.
If you want the same spell to be AOE, you need to dial back its raw power, and most likely also give it a few other things to limit its use. I think an AOE version might get too complex and have too many special triggers to make it intuitive and fun to use.
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The downside with stim on ghost is, medic is necessarily and harder to move on his own which i think would be cool
if he could
Since he will get good agility, and hopefully a cool cloak to.
I feel he will be fun to use already
The positive thing with stim is he can attack faster - but is this really necessarily?
Wouldnt it be cooler if he had his rather slower attackspeed?
Just to make it clear - with stim we have to reduce his base movementspeed.
Without it, we can rise his base movementspeed
(Right now, on paper he moves as fast as a stim marauder without stim)
Stalker
Well i fear lings will suck against stalker, and that will be very huge with extra light damage.
You have a point that his only use is pretty much versus mutas - although with my change +damage to psinoic.
Not many units with psinoic tho - but still, something.
12 damage means he will do quite alot more dps than goon vs lings.
And he is cheaper with blink to.
Well atleast we can try it
ghost
I agree with zaphod here - aoe on the spell seems to much
Thats why i wanted it have single-target spell.
At the same time, it requires more effort from the ghosts, makes it less spammy - More decision rather than "There are units clumped up, i use it there"
And against lurkers - i found it very hard to get it "balanced" with aoe, since it will be very spammy there.
You use it - THe lurkers burrow really fast again - you use it again.
The lurkers will not do any damage this way
Overkill
OVerkill on zealots matters though quite alot, since they attack so slow. (Or slower atleast than ling,marine)
And overall i just think it matters with marines,lings to even if they shoot fast they will waste tons of dps
on zerglings especially since they have so low hp.
And lings to, waste dps on units with low health.
BTW
Same cloak as the new cloak on banshee
- He get a speedboost that deaccelerates downwards.
3.2, 3.1, 3, 2.9, 28(his base)
This is his cloak in 5seconds.
Anyone read this?
Opinions about this cloak on ghost?
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Well i fear lings will suck against stalker, and that will be very huge with extra light damage.
I think you should test this is in the unit tester. I tested it extensively when it had 9.5 damage vs light in all kinds of situations, and really it just sucked giant !@#$%^&* balls. In every kind of situation (like in ramps), it was just better do get an extra Zealot rather than an extra Stalker, even if the Zealots blocked each other.
I would be very surprised if 12 damage vs light is gonna take them from useless to overpowered.
I agree with zaphod here - aoe on the spell seems to much
Thats why i wanted it have single-target spell.
At the same time, it requires more effort from the ghosts, makes it less spammy - More decision rather than "There are units clumped up, i use it there"
I think neither BW nor Sc2 has a 50/100 unit w/ an AOE ability, so that's definitely a very dangerous/thin line.
If it stays this cheaply, it is important that the ability doesn't scale very well.
EDIT: HT's is the exception here. But I guess HT's doesn't scale too well (when massed) vs Siege Tanks for instance as you need other stuff to absorb. Maybe the same concept is relevant for bio + ghost synergy? Ghosts need Marines/Maurauders to tank the first shots?
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EPT
