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On July 22 2013 06:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I will try to give it more of a burst attack. Hopefully it will be more interesting to use.
At the same time, if Immortals are moved to the Robotic facility, Marauders will be better in the early game due to less Immortal production from Protoss. I think it should be burst attack with higher range tbh. Otherwise it will make bio much harder to play without any "real" compensation. Higher range (if done correctly) will be a nice reward as it will make maurauders (+ marines) cost inefficient vs gateway (as we can reduce the HP of the maurauder).
The reduced HP is the key in this statement. Now the opponent have an actual unit independant counter to marauders (anything good at killing or zoning low hp units)
If we move the immortal to robo, it might be a good idea to make the robo facility more accesible and the robo bay more expensive.
This will open the possibility of protoss not getting as fast reavers, but making it easier to build robos for mass immortal production.
Please note that the delayed attack point rewards careful control, but punishes panic movements severely. It also reward the enemy for clutch micro to abuse the delay. Possible way of implementing this with rewarding micro better is to make the delay on deceleration rather than the actual attack delay (don't know if this is possible for ground units).
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Edited my post at the end of the previous page.
Yeah Stalkers are good at harassing atm, and they also serve a function in the army. In the post on the previous page, I am talking about the suggestion that was proposed - to make the Stalker even more fragile, faster and greater at harassing. Like a pure harassment unit, and not good in the army. And make it higher up in the tech tree - only built from Warp gates. Even if it sounds interesting, I doubt it will work in the game, and it probably requires a lot of rework in the unit relationships.
@Regarding Immortal/Marauder
I encourage you all to experiment with these units in the editor. If you find a good solution for damage point, micro etc, please save it as a test map and send it to me. It saves me some time. (It is a scarce resource for me atm)
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On July 22 2013 07:21 Kabel wrote:
Edited my post at the end of the previous page.
Yeah Stalkers are good at harassing atm, and they also serve a function in the army. In the post on the previous page, I am talking about the suggestion that was proposed - to make the Stalker even more fragile, faster and greater at harassing. Like a pure harassment unit, and not good in the army. And make it higher up in the tech tree - only built from Warp gates. Even if it sounds interesting, I doubt it will work in the game, and it probably requires a lot of rework in the unit relationships.
@Regarding Immortal/Marauder
I encourage you all to experiment with these units in the editor. If you find a good solution for damage point, micro etc, please save it as a test map and send it to me. It saves me some time. (It is a scarce resource for me atm)
Yeh I don't think the stalker is a unit that really needs to be focussed particular much on. It works pretty good atm. IMO.
If we move the immortal to robo, it might be a good idea to make the robo facility more accesible and the robo bay more expensive.
I think it costs 150/100 atm. compared to 200/100 in Sc2. But one of the main advantages I see with this change (and why I don't think it should be cheaper) is that it will slow down protoss production vs bio. It was kinda problematic that we;
A) Wanted bio to be cost inefficient vs gateway units
B) Wanted bio to have a faster/similar production than protoss
C) Wanted bio players to invest in factory, starport and dropship, while protoss could still sit on mostly gateway tech.
D) Wanted bio to take a faster 3rd/4th (which is the advantage you get by having map control).
At the same time. This would obviously be a giant mess to make this work. Immortal at robo will help slow down protoss production a bit, and the most important thing is that this doesn't really affect protoss production vs zerg (as you can stay on zealot/stalker untill lurker tech).
For PvZ the most important thing is to make it possible for protoss to stay on 1 robo in the midgame, and maybe 2 robos in the late midgame/early midgame. IMO It shouldn't be a requirement - but an option instead - that protoss should have 3-4 robo facilities relatively early to deal with a potential lurker tech switch or fast ultralisks tech.
I've made a couple of suggestions to Kabel that I believe will minimize these potential issues.
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If HT's can be warped in again, let's remove the amulet. That is a no-brainier. Let's not make things more complicated than they have to be. I still don't like immortals at robo but we can give it a try. Things can be reverted....
Feel free to use me or Dec (he'll be mad I'm speaking for him  ) to do editor work if needed 
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If the sentinel is going to the Stargate lets just cut the chase and call it what it is, the Oracle.
Yes it is not an SC2 Oracle it is the Starbow Oracle. It harasses workers in a different way. Got different spells just like the Starbow Ghost and the Starbow infestor have.
It is mainly because the sentinel model is bugged as hell. It still turns all red when cloaked by an Arbiter. It got the Oracle death animation, even through its main model is based off the sentry.
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Amulet in BW only increased max energy. I actually never got why energy upgrades in SC2 increased starting energy as well. Combined with warp gates it really creates a bad situation.
I actually like Zealot/Stalker still being an option, and going for multiple robos whould just be one of many ways to play protoss ideally. The real benefit from having immortal on Robo is that protoss now has a unit that can be considered "core" on all production structures. This leaves a lot of room for build order choises that gives a really dynamic race to play and plan for.
I still could see robo being 150/50 with a tad longer build time if nessesary, but it would be better to test.
I also can still see Stalkers changed to light armor type - Mostly because this creates a really tense situation when they fight reapers and vultures, but also makes them better against Hydras (giving P a bit more leeway in ZvP).
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Ok, I can upload a small patch now
- Immortal moved to Robo facility, from the Gateway.
Build time 35 seconds, instead of 50 seconds, slightly higher damage, but lower attack speed. (Makes each shot more important.)
- Sentinel moved to Stargate, from the Robotic facility.
They can use both Null Ward and Safeguard from the start.
- Gateway and Warp gates can produce the same units now. They are currently as efficient at producing units. (Will probably be changed later. I have a couple of suggestions to look at.)
- HT Amulet upgrade removed. (Since HTs can be warped in again)
- Marauder gains +1 starting range. Slower attack speed, but higher damage. (Makes them more of a "burst unit", which might help to seperate the way they are controlled, compared to Marines.)
- Viper nest cost increased to 150/100 from 100/100. Some of you say that it is so cheap and easy for Zerg to tech straight to Hive. Now the requirement building becomes a little bit more costly.
This is how Protoss now looks:
+ Show Spoiler +Gateway and Warpgate: Zealot, Stalker, HT, DT
Robotic facility: Warp Prism, Observer, Immortal and Reaver
Stargate: Corsair, Scout, Sentinel, Carrier, Arbiter
As you see, only a rearrangement, and small changes. This is mostly a test to see how this will affect the game. If it sucks, it is easy to revert. If it is not good enough, we can continue to improve it. I take a small step this time.
I will upload this in 30 minutes. Any last words?
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If the sentinel is going to the Stargate lets just cut the chase and call it what it is, the Oracle.
Yes it is not an SC2 Oracle it is the Starbow Oracle. It harasses workers in a different way. Got different spells just like the Starbow Ghost and the Starbow infestor have.
It is mainly because the sentinel model is bugged as hell. It still turns all red when cloaked by an Arbiter. It got the Oracle death animation, even through its main model is based off the sentry.
I do not notice graphical bugs like that, since my computer can only play on lowest settings. (So please continue to report other issues) If the Sentinel ends up fitting the Stargate better than the Robotic facility, I might make a model and name swap later on. (Especially if I can not solve the graphical issues with the Sentinel model.)
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On July 22 2013 21:43 Kabel wrote:Ok, I can upload a small patch now - Immortal moved to Robo facility, from the Gateway. Build time 35 seconds, instead of 50 seconds, slightly higher damage, but lower attack speed. (Makes each shot more important.) - Sentinel moved to Stargate, from the Robotic facility. They can use both Null Ward and Safeguard from the start. - Gateway and Warp gates can produce the same units now. They are currently as efficient at producing units. (Will probably be changed later. I have a couple of suggestions to look at.) - HT Amulet upgrade removed. (Since HTs can be warped in again) - Marauder gains +1 starting range. Slower attack speed, but higher damage. (Makes them more of a "burst unit", which might help to seperate the way they are controlled, compared to Marines.) - Viper nest cost increased to 150/100 from 100/100. Some of you say that it is so cheap and easy for Zerg to tech straight to Hive. Now the requirement building becomes a little bit more costly. This is how Protoss now looks: + Show Spoiler +Gateway and Warpgate: Zealot, Stalker, HT, DT
Robotic facility: Warp Prism, Observer, Immortal and Reaver
Stargate: Corsair, Scout, Sentinel, Carrier, Arbiter As you see, only a rearrangement, and small changes. This is mostly a test to see how this will affect the game. If it sucks, it is easy to revert. If it is not good enough, we can continue to improve it. I take a small step this time. I will upload this in 30 minutes. Any last words?
This changes are not bad, seems that Starbow is becoming an alternative version of hots. This however is not a bad thing: new players will get more familiar with it.
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On July 22 2013 21:43 Kabel wrote:Ok, I can upload a small patch now - Immortal moved to Robo facility, from the Gateway. Build time 35 seconds, instead of 50 seconds, slightly higher damage, but lower attack speed. (Makes each shot more important.) - Sentinel moved to Stargate, from the Robotic facility. They can use both Null Ward and Safeguard from the start. - Gateway and Warp gates can produce the same units now. They are currently as efficient at producing units. (Will probably be changed later. I have a couple of suggestions to look at.) - HT Amulet upgrade removed. (Since HTs can be warped in again) - Marauder gains +1 starting range. Slower attack speed, but higher damage. (Makes them more of a "burst unit", which might help to seperate the way they are controlled, compared to Marines.) - Viper nest cost increased to 150/100 from 100/100. Some of you say that it is so cheap and easy for Zerg to tech straight to Hive. Now the requirement building becomes a little bit more costly. This is how Protoss now looks: + Show Spoiler +Gateway and Warpgate: Zealot, Stalker, HT, DT
Robotic facility: Warp Prism, Observer, Immortal and Reaver
Stargate: Corsair, Scout, Sentinel, Carrier, Arbiter As you see, only a rearrangement, and small changes. This is mostly a test to see how this will affect the game. If it sucks, it is easy to revert. If it is not good enough, we can continue to improve it. I take a small step this time. I will upload this in 30 minutes. Any last words?
Lurker play will be extremely unforgiving for any protoss that doesn't get 2 robos very early atm. I don't think this patch should be uploaded without giving the sentinel the oracles detection ability.
Also, how is the proces going with making nullsphre more reliable?
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Lurker play will be extremely unforgiving for any protoss that doesn't get 2 robos very early atm. I don't think this patch should be uploaded without giving the sentinel the oracles detection ability.
Also, how is the proces going with making nullsphre more reliable?
Sentinels now starts with Safeguard, which reduces over half the damage dealt from Lurkers. (Requires no extra investment in tech or upgrade to get the ability anymore.) I wanna see how it works before I add any extra detection abilities. If it is insane, then I fix it.
I have not done anything with Null Wards yet. Requires more work to fix them. I will try to do it in the near future.
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On July 22 2013 22:56 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +Lurker play will be extremely unforgiving for any protoss that doesn't get 2 robos very early atm. I don't think this patch should be uploaded without giving the sentinel the oracles detection ability.
Also, how is the proces going with making nullsphre more reliable? Sentinels now starts with Safeguard, which reduces over half the damage dealt from Lurkers. (Requires no extra investment in tech or upgrade to get the ability anymore.) I wanna see how it works before I add any extra detection abilities. If it is insane, then I fix it. I have not done anything with Null Wards yet. Requires more work to fix them. I will try to do it in the near future.
oh ok. didn't read that they started with it.
EDIT: does safeguard also reduce damage of ultralisks?
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Safeguard costs 75 energy and allows the Sentinel to channel a beam at target area. All friendly units within the targeted large area can not take more than 10 damage from any attack. The effect lasts up to 30 seconds, but is canceled if the Sentinel is destroyed.
Vs Zerg, it reduces damage from Lurkers, Banelings, Guardians, Ultralisks and Hydras if they have weapon upgrades.
Vs Terran, it reduces dmg from Spider mines, Tanks, Marauders, BC, Vultures vs Light, Goliaths vs ground
Vs Protoss, it reduces dmg from Stalkers, Immortals, Reaver, Archon, DT
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Unit test map "Starbow Tester" Updated!
I tryed new changes of the marauder, seems to work.
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Zealots now only take 75% damage if the opponent has a 50-50 mix of maurauder/marine which is a bit better. Still not sure whether that is completely enough. Maybe if we can combine this with my previous idea of a a manually activateable charge (on top of the movement speed of 3 charge currently provides) that lasts only 2 seconds and has a very high cooldown (like 60 seconds), it will then probably be quite a bit better in the midgame.
I expect protoss players to experiment a lot more with stargate tech in all matchups. Sentinels make the opening quite strong and versatile (esp if nullsphre attacks gets changed a bit) as you can follow up with corsairs if your opponent goes for mutalisks or scouts if the opponent goes bio (scouts are pretty good vs medi's).
It is likely that we still need some more refinement/balancing of the various units, but protoss tier 2 looks much stronger with more synergy between them protoss tier 1 units. Previously protoss tier 2 was just nonexistant which meant that protoss's had to rush for tier 3 units which kinda created lame games.
Regarding the marauder, I am not sure if it is different enough. Basically it almost feel like it has become more like the sc2 maurauder with a lower attack speed but exact same damage and range as the Sc2 version.
Would have liked to see it become even more seperate (higher range, maybe also higher burst damage vs armored, even higher cooldown and less HP perhaps).
Maybe immortal could have been tried as a normal type armor if this type of maurauder would be too good vs them. Then we could give the maurauder these stats;
- 10 vs light. 20 vs normal, 25 vs armored
- 2.5 attack speed (compared to the current 2 and 1.5 prepatch)
- 90 HP
- 7 range.
With these stats, the punishment for not target firing (but just-amoving vs zealots/lings) would be really high. With its higher range, lower HP and much slower attack cooldown it also becomes a unit that is better at picking of units --> retreating, rather than staying in the middle of the battle.
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On July 23 2013 02:01 Hider wrote:
Regarding the marauder, I am not sure if it is different enough. Basically it almost feel like it has become more like the sc2 maurauder with a lower attack speed (same damage and same range). Would have liked to see it become even more seperate (higher range, maybe also higher burst damage vs armored, even higher cooldown and less HP perhaps).
+1
Marauder should be fragile, maybe 90 hp and 7 weapon range?
Also add a special skill, that may not overlap with the effects StimPack:
High caliber barrel:
weapon +100% cooldown and +150% damage for 20 sec
Cooldown of 30 sec.
If use this ability, marauder cannot use stimpack. If you stimpack, marauder cannot use Hight caliber barrel.
This ability becomes less effective with large masses of marauders, cause of the lost damage.
I believe this can give exciting game.
Edit:
I have tryed and seem work.
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I took a small step for the Marauder with this patch. Mainly because I did not have enough time to explore, play around and try different variations or "larger" changes with it. More might come in the near future.
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Long range, less hp... Let's just be careful to not make another ghost
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EPT
