EPT[A] Starbow - Page 329
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Costs 50 energy now. It takes 7 seconds for the Null thing to be deployed. The Null thing lasts 150 seconds. It has an ability that is toggled to auto-cast. As soon as an enemy unit comes close, it will use the ability which fires a line of psionic stuff that damages/slows enemy units. (20 dmg vs light, 40 vs all. Slows speed and attack by 50% for 8 seconds.) When the Null thing has used its ability, it is destroyed. A player can deactivate the auto-cast of the spell by clicking on a button on the Null thing. Instead the player can manually cast the spell at target area (within the Null things range). Is it useful? Does it make sense? Are we on the right track? Need to test it more in play, IMO. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Don't know if you "fixed" it at all but it seems to "shoot" quite randomly sometime and not at the unit entering its sphere. It makes sense if it actually shoots at the first target that enters (if it's set on "auto"), and it seems very useful. Now that stalkers are slightly nerfed they can "catch" a group of mutalisks this way + several other nice uses. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On July 14 2013 18:31 Big J wrote: Hey, so this is still a Work in Progress, but any chance that people might like it? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/h4nOQDG.jpg) I hope natural to natural distance isn't too much of a problem, else I'm quite confident that this layout could work out. I don't know what size that map is and I can only assume the seemingly resource-free bases are the main bases and that they do actually have resources... but it certainly looks like the distances between other bases would be very close anyway. Everything looks extremely close by air, or by ground if you remove rocks. It would have to be a map with very large dimension to have a hope of working, but forcing something to work with close base designs and large map dimensions makes scouting even harder due to large map scale and empowers proxies/cheese by making them even harder to find. At a glance, without playing it, three thumbs down (one taken from the body of a warrior that fell to a proxy). | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Lets see how the game feels now with the two new units. (Hopefully they are somewhat balanced after the last patch.) PvZ from yesterday: PvZ: http://drop.sc/348948 I also bump Xiphias latest VOD: | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
It's because you swapped to HotS and had to remake everything/a lot and forgot to change it, right? Duality Charge makes more sense, if those things even exist.  EDIT: Oh that's so weird, haha. You're using that interesting arcane magic missile animation for a stalker's ground attack and the normal dual shots for anti-air. Oh, just FY Just remember these 2 range, 1.75 cooldown Starbow Archons are the weakest Corsairs have a cooldown of 1.25 in the game but the wiki says 1.2. Which one is intentional? You have Charge doing nothing but a speed boost that makes them only as fast as fast hydralisks? (3.00) Not 3.375 or 3.25 even? Zerg is still too mineral intensive and doesn't use much gas until maybe late game, even protoss could do with a little more minerals? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Pre-HoTS the Stalker had a single simple beam when it attacked. The upgrade was called Duality Charge, and once upgraded it gave the double beam animation. After HoTS, December added this new awesome single attack beam we see in the VOD above. Some players requested me to add a way to see if the Stalker had researched the range upgrade or not. So I let the standard dual beam animation be the starting attack. Once upgraded, the Stalker now gets the new single attack beam. Since the attack is changed from two beams to one beam, I decided to rename it into Singularity Charge. It is the same attack vs both air and ground units. @Corsair They have attack cooldown 1.25 seconds atm. December added the new Corsair micro feature a weak or two ago. Longer cooldown but higher dmg makes each burst stronger, which rewards players who manually micro their Corsairs in combat. (Burst, move away, burst, move away, burst.) @Archon Archon stats in Starbow: HP 10 Shield 350 Attack range 2 Attack cooldown 1.75 Damage 30 vs all Speed 2.81 Armored (Some argues this is unnecessary since it makes Hydras and Siege tanks very strong vs them.) Do Archons look so weak? @Charge Atm, the charge upgrade for Zealots give them the same movement speed as Hydralisks. If the speed is faster than Hydras, there is almost no point in microing the Hydras in combat. Zealots are so smart in SC2 so they run and attack at the same time. So if Z moves his Hydras away, the Zealots will always hit them as if the Hydras stood still. @Zerg and Protoss too mineral intensive? Not sure | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
Ahhhhhhhhhh! Right, yes! I just saw them attack overlords first and didn't really notice the attack otherwise and then saw the beam later. Does the fancy new graphic take any longer to hit? Without having tried to study it at all, I feel like it might take a tad longer to hit. Perhaps it is only an optical illusion. Archon Hydralisks dealt maximum damage to archons in BW so there is some history to them dealing large damage there, but Armoured just sound so wrong for archons. :| Not so weak, but still weaker than the other two, yes. Charge I wouldn't have the charge ability in it either, but I always found those relationships worked best when infantry can gradually catch foot soldier type units (range & not super fast). @Resources Yes, or not enough minerals in game. So much spare gas for zerg unless we focus on mutalisks, a lot of lurkers or rush to ultras, as far as I've seen/felt. Currently I think Vipers should cost more like 100/150, not 150/100. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On July 14 2013 18:31 Big J wrote: Hey, so this is still a Work in Progress, but any chance that people might like it? I hope natural to natural distance isn't too much of a problem, else I'm quite confident that this layout could work out. Hmm.. maybe work it so the two mineral only thirds become one with gas? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Also, it still says 10 seconds on the banshee tooltip and on the starport (?), but it actually lasts 15 sec now. And thanks for all the games yesterday. A lot of new players are entering Starbow which is always so thrilling!  Here are the games from yesterday (most of them): http://www.twitch.tv/kanban85/b/430969858 Sorry for some black moments. It should not happen again, I've fixed some stuff in OBS. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Streaming | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
watching (as I can't come online today) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
- PvZ between Hider and Solid. http://drop.sc/349263 (Sentinels vs Zerg) - PvZ between Hider and Solid. http://drop.sc/349262 (Immortals vs Zerg) - PvP between Hider and Desive http://drop.sc/349264 | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
Immortals don't have any special shield it seems, so I'm not sure how good Immortals can really be against lurkers Delay for units after using Rift was painful to watch on Xiphias' stream.  I'm not sure it's necessary. What is the delay at?Having a 1 second delay would be like unburrowing zerg units, so that is probably a good choice. Is the delay 3 seconds currently or something else? Personal opinion on Reavers is that they should one-shot hydralisks, especially given the cost of reavers and the fact that you've got them firing 20% slower than in BW (72 BW frames/4.05 SC2 seconds instead of 60 BW frames/3.375 SC2 seconds) and as far as I can tell (I could be wrong) the area of splash is slightly smaller by default. People (Solid, Xiphias too) complaining about banshees beating Stalkers one vs one confuses me. You kept banshees nerfed into the ground (grounded helicopters/planes aren't much use, by the way ), finally buff their range to 5, still with 120 life (SC2 banshees have 140 remember) and now it's suddenly too strong again?!Cooldown is short but I think a much more expensive unit that takes longer to make and is later in the tech tree (i.e. requires more initial investment) SHOULD beat a stalker one on one. Make a change more drastic and we'll be back to banshees being near useless after the first cloaked harassment. They don't deal more vs light or anything, so it's not like they're purely for harassing workers. Xiphias didn't get detection and didn't know about banshees until they arrived. Build order advantage, not imbalance, unless getting detection in time is too hard. If you do want to weaken banshees though, I would suggest 1.5 cooldown as any further would mean that it'll be too lenient on the stalkers (IMO). Keep in mind the production buildings required for banshees vs stalkers. If anything, I think the immortals weren't good enough. If you're going to have marauders and immortals, immortals need to really f@#$ up the marauders. It's not like they even have their Hardened Shield. Instead, the 75/25 marauders were beating the 125/50 stalkers 1 on 1. The ratio of stalkers:marauders is almost identical to that of SC2 only 1 - They kill each other more slowly and 2 - The marauders cost 25 less minerals So comparing Immortal details, once you get to larger numbers, it seems you'll pretty much need 2 marauders per immortal...which means only 150/50 vs the 150/100 of immortals! Immortals probably need to be a fair bit better against armoured, although, as I've said, I really don't think we need marauders in the game, but I think immortals could possibly be good for the game. I don't understand why banshees are armoured and have 1 armour now when they're like helicopter gunships minus the rotor (to me), or basically lightweight stealth planes that shoot rockets. It feels so wrong and I think the anti-air flyers all still deal decent damage to non-armoured, even if less. Just for the sake of checking strength, value etc., let's see how marauders would do against banshees currently, if marauders could detect and shoot air units: 100÷22=4.545 (5); 5×1.25 cooldown = Banshee kills marauder in 6.25 game seconds 120÷15=8; 8×1.5 cooldown = Marauder would kill banshee in 12 game seconds. 12÷6.25 = 1.92, but that always supposes only 1× the unit hit rate. So if "1.92 marauders" faced 1 "banshee on wheels", but 1 of the "1.92 marauders" had its back turned (wasn't firing) until its fellow died, it would be dead even. Once you take the increased hit rate of the fellow into account it gets more complicated and isn't perfectly worked out with any simple formula I know, but I've always found that taking the "1.45 root" (or whatever it would be called) works well for estimations: 1.45√1.92, also known as 1.92^(1÷1.45) = 1.568123... 1.6 marauders cost a neat 120/40, so we'll go with that. 120/40 to beat 150/100. Banshee can fly, banshee can cloak, but the banshee also takes longer to build, only comes from more expensive, later tech starports and cannot use Stim Packs. You were picking on the wrong unit. Detection timing and scouting are the main issues with banshees, even with only 1.25 cooldown. Marauders are just too strong right now. Overall similar to but weaker than roaches (not in Starbow), except still strong than they are vs armoured. Comparing Marauders to Hydralisks: - vs Light, hydras are a little better - vs Medium, pretty much even - vs Armoured, marauders are a little better - Hydralisks shoot air but marauders can stim ∴ On the ground, marauders get to be a lot stronger, but due to no AA attack, they are a little more specialised Marauders OP in Starbow, Immortals unsure of because of marauders, banshees may be a little too strong. If we keep marauders for longer, maybe buff Immortals (I would try ~35 versus armoured, personally, maybe something like 18+18 vs armoured) and ...I'm not sure zerg need anything to help out unless you made queens medium rather than armoured. 5-6 zerglings cost similar amounts minerals but no gas and, at least in a straight-up fight (with surround), should come out even. 8-12 in a worse situation for closer cost. Oh, if you do want a suggestion for how I would improve Archons if it seems like they need it, I would give them a base of 35 damage (+3 per upgrade probably) and change the cooldown to 1.5. Particularly helps versus zerglings without giving them better range, so that you can have too many behind many zealots, due to not having an entire 3 range more than them. Xiphias - please press 'H' on your queens more often. XD Thanks for the streams! I really think that for things like Ensnare and maybe Dark Swarm to be more useful, they should last longer. 15 for Ensnare is too little, at least. On the other hand, while we're not really seeing much of them (and they ARE hideous), a Defiler's Consume ability granting them 50 energy per creature gobbled up (instead of 25 energy) seems like it should be a bit too much. On the wiki: Mutalisk Weapon: Glave Wurm Damage: 9 (1st bounce) 5 (2nd bounce) 3 (3rd bounce) I'm not sure if that was reverted to 9-3-1 or not. I thought it was but I thought I'd ask rather than edit it (and then be wrong). On THAT MAP: + Show Spoiler + On July 15 2013 08:17 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: I don't know what size that map is and I can only assume the seemingly resource-free bases are the main bases and that they do actually have resources... but it certainly looks like the distances between other bases would be very close anyway. Everything looks extremely close by air, or by ground if you remove rocks. It would have to be a map with very large dimension to have a hope of working, but forcing something to work with close base designs and large map dimensions makes scouting even harder due to large map scale and empowers proxies/cheese by making them even harder to find. At a glance, without playing it, three thumbs down (one taken from the body of a warrior that fell to a proxy). Right, well, as well as base to base distances being too short, I forgot to point out what Xiphias stated: Stupidly long distance from the main to natural/any other base). It's just a terrible map. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
IF our banshee was just as slow (ar olmost as slow) then sure, it can beat a stalker 1v1, but a fast banshee like that we have now feels more like a wraith, and a wraith is NOT suppose to beat a stalker 1v1 (nor 2-shot workers). Delay on rift is fine since it used to be pretty much instant anti-harass. Also reavers not one-shotting hydras BEFORE DMG UPGRADE is also fine. They need support units before upgrade. They still 1-shot workers and deal a good amount of dmg. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
Reavers need support units after the upgrade too, assuming zerg doesn't just ball up to maximise damage taken. 1-shooting workers with reavers isn't that good given the investment, seemingly smaller splash radius (could be wrong about that) and the smaller numbers of workers at bases from what I've seen so far, so I'm not convinced that is enough. :p They will one-shot hydralisks that have no carapace upgrades but need the Plasma Charge damage upgrade to beat hydralisks that do have an carapace bonus. EDIT: Oh also, I forgot to mention: Reaver splash is actually 100%/50%/25% it seems, whereas in BW it was 100% in the entire area, which was what made it so strong. Without that, it's quite poor given the attack rate, the (normal) immobility of reavers. I actually think the splash with Plasma Charge should (at least with the damage upgrade) one-hit all hydralisks and marines in the area, or else they need to fire more quickly (which would change the feel of the Reaver). If you want Null Ward to be useful and an attractive option, I would make Null Spheres + Show Spoiler + (which should be called Null Wards, shouldn't they?) EDIT: OH, they do but just die THAT quickly, I see...or do they? I thought the queen must have killed it but slowing the replay down it seems to die 2-3 seconds after casting, or... So they do die when they cast Rupture, which makes them pretty terrible, think. They don't need much, just let them fire infinite times with a longer cooldown than the (unused) current 10 seconds, so 20 or maybe more, seeing as they only have 20 shields and 20 life anyway. Think of them as similar to (but lower tier) Widow Mines: 40 HP overall (need to be fairly fragile), only Psionic and with a cooldown of 20+ seconds, maybe the same 40 of Widow Mines. If you actually don't clear the threat of them, they can deal more damage. Are Null Wards flying or considered to be on the ground? The description of the Null Ward ability needs to mention the 8 second set-up time. Queens dealing more damage vs armoured seems to do little except make them slightly less terrible versus armoured anti-armour/high damage units like marauders, immortals and reavers. I don't really see the point in it. Maybe it's not very important but I think either 1 - making Queens medium with 2×4 per 1.25 game seconds or 2 - raising the damage versus all to 2×5 or 2×6 vs all per 1.25 game seconds or 3 - returning the damage and hit rate vs ground to 2×4 per 1.00 game second seem neater and/or just more useful/appropriate. Extra damage versus units that slaughter them doesn't last long, heehee! | ||
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