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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
On July 14 2013 00:37 SmileZerg wrote: Pure bio should not be viable. Ever. It's just Tier 1.5 units coming out of Terrans first production structure. There shouldn't BE such a thing as a "bio" player. w00t?  then i misunderstood SB conception | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
:-O | ||
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Izerman
Sweden99 Posts
did it break?` | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On July 13 2013 18:53 Hider wrote: In theory that does sound interesting, however what actually happened was that the protoss player could "turtle" outside the terran players base and kite him constantly with stalkers which made attacking as bio/moving out on the map a bad strategy. You could make two arguments here; 1) Bio players should learn to adopt, refine drop-based builds (solid's POV). 2) We could change stats of stalker/zealot/marine/speedling. I don't think it's too bad for toss to get a contain with early pressure, that happened a lot with 2 gate goon range builds in BW and I thought it was great.  Now that wasn't against bio, but mech was capable of pushing it out with longer range units (tanks) and/or enough vultures chasing them away by placing mines near the goons and buildings up vulture numbers etc.In the case of bio though, it should be fine so long as 1) Stim grants enough of a speed advantage to the marines over the dragoons/stalkers 2) Stim lasts long enough so that they can chase and damage stalkers for more than just a very brief period of time What is the current effect and duration of Stim Packs? If it is 50%, the difference is 3.375÷2.95=~14% faster. Do Stim Packs last long enough for that to make the difference? I always thought that bio against stalkers should be centred around stim not giving them a HUGE speed advantage over Stalkers, but enough, for long enough, so that they can kill of many stalkers with their DPS and ability to chase if the Stalkers overcommit to the contain while Protoss' gas income is probably more limited on one base than terran's mineral income, so that terran can outproduce the protoss in the long run, meaning the contain should only ever have a timed life anyway, assuming the terran doesn't waste too many units with poor control. On Stalker strength, the most strong they should be vs light is 12 per hit to zerglings, I think, though cooldown comes into it. Time to kill 1 zergling with ... 10 damage & 1.44 cooldown (SC2) = 4 hits to kill, 5.76 game seconds 12 damage & 1.75 cooldown (current Starbow vs armoured amount) = 3 hits to kill, 5.25 game seconds 12 damage & 1.44 cooldown (Hybrid) = 3 hits to kill, 4.32 game seconds. Now starting off with 12 damage and only 1.44 cooldown makes it too strong to begin with, but either 11 damage (so that they get to that with a +1 upgrade advantage over zerg) and 1.44 cooldown or 12 damage and 1.75 cooldown may well make them quite a lot stronger against zerglings than default SC2 stalkers are, without going overboard. They don't NEED to be anti-light, nor do I think they should be. So I suggest that their base damage and cooldown are, as said, either: 11 damage & 1.44 cooldown = 4 hits to kill, 5.76 secs, +1 means 12 damage & 1.44 cooldown = 3 hits to kill, 4.32 secs. 12 damage & 1.75 cooldown = 3 hits to kill, 5.25 game seconds For the record, +0 dragoons would kill zerglings with 4 hits, at 1.6875 cooldown, for 6.75 game secs (at least a bit too long for stalkers IMHO). These VS marines: 11 damage & 1.44 cooldown = 5 hits to kill, 7.2 secs, +1 means 12 damage & 1.44 cooldown = 3 hits to kill, 5.76 secs. 12 damage & 1.75 cooldown = 4 hits to kill, 7 game seconds For the record, +0 dragoons would kill hydralisks with 5 hits, at 1.6875 cooldown, for 8.4375 game secs (way too long for stalkers IMHO). These VS Hydralisks 11 damage & 1.44 cooldown = 8 hits to kill, 11.52 secs, +1 means 12 damage & 1.44 cooldown = 7 hits to kill, 10.08 secs. 12 damage & 1.75 cooldown = 7 hits to kill, 12.25 game seconds For the record, +0 dragoons would kill hydralisks with 6 hits, at 1.6875 cooldown, for 10.125 game secs (any faster would be far too good for stalkers IMHO). Now how strong you want to make them vs armoured is not something I'm as sure about right now, but I'm happy with them being BETTER against armoured, so long as it's not too much strong. Whether you keep immortals or not, I think stalkers function better if they are neither 'antilight' or worse vs armoured. I think 14 vs light and medium is overkill for stalkers, too strong against things that zealots and splash damage are meant for. I would suggest either somewhere from 11-14 with 1.44 cooldown vs armoured or 12-15 & 1.75 cooldown vs armoured. I think Marauders should be completely scrapped, especially after reading all of this, namely the emboldened section: On July 14 2013 01:05 SmileZerg wrote: Then I'm not sure what the Marauder is doing in the game, because it doesn't fulfill any role that either Siege Tanks or the Matrix spell don't already take care of. Ghosts and reapers are much cooler if you want additional interesting bio units to add to marines & medics. If you want to make bio viable in some way, do it through them (and I am happy with reapers at the moment. I at least think that if they need a change for whatever reason, do it after sorting this other stuff out). | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
The rest of the balance suggestions seems fine for now. Also. I have a small beef with PF's. If protoss is to kill a PF they can make immortals or just snipe workers with reavers out of range. If Terran wants to kill a PF they can outrange with tanks. But, if a zerg player wants to kill a PF he has to almost sacrifice his whole army.... Sure you can "lure out" an attack first, but there should be a unit composition that can take care of PF without "luring" like toss and terran's got. I suggest that Dark Swarm somehow takes care of this. IT DOES NOT ATM! since most of planitaries dmg is splash dmg. How about reducing dmg from splash by 50% under swarm? I don't think SB dark swarm is too broken already. Teching to hive should have it's advantages. I just LOVE the concept of making 20 cracklings, bring a defiler and have a "kill poorly defended expansion" crack squad. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
If no detection is there or you can knock it out, lurkers, though terran can obviously scan. I have forgotten how far the Viper's minions can move, but they could help out (or at least kill turrets ).EDIT: Oh, right, I became a Lurker four posts ago! ♥ | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On July 13 2013 08:40 Kabel wrote: @Solid + Show Spoiler + I think I am just horrible at explaining my intentions and what I try to reach, by adding the Immortal/Marauder. : / I think we see this in a very different way. I agree that the metagame, strategies and multitasking skills etc players use play an important role. We can not detail design everything. But that is not what I, we, you, all of us are trying to do. I will try and clarify my stance on some of the points you made: Also you cannot force multitasking in a game by design, if 2 players wish to sit on their asses till lategame and focus on their build instead of microing drops/banshees/ w/e, then you wont see action. I assume players play the game with the intention to win. All I can do via the design is make sure that fun and interesting play-styles are better and more efficent compared to "boring" play styles. IF the best "strategy" is to turtle the whole game and push out with a large army 20 minutes into the game, then players will do so. Especially if that helps them to win the game. That is why I have tried to punish deathball play, punish turtle play, encourage multitasking, encourage harassment, encourage smaller skirmishes... Since day one of Starbow... I can not force anything. I can only encourage it. Why can this not be done via design? Isn´t that what we do and have done all the time? O_O yes, but this entirely dependent on the players capability to multitask and his position in the game, like if i see a ton of lings out on the map, i will not risk moving out due to fear of a huge counterattack, i will wait for a decent reavercount to move out. On July 13 2013 08:40 Kabel wrote: But this is not what I do at all.................................. Or anyone in this thread? The balance is not the major concern. The problem is NOT that a race wins too much. The problem is HOW races win. For example: You mention in your text that it is incredible lame to watch WoL Terran just A-move and kill Protoss at the 10 minute mark with a bio ball. You seem to consider that a problem since it creates lame gameplay. In the same way, I try to design/shape what I consider problems in the Starbow match-ups. I do NOT mean only balance problems. Rather game dynamic problems - aka, stuff that leads to boring gameplay. Agreed, i know your intentions are right, but consider that WoL had tons of games played, figured out styles and now we had 2 optimal builds vs each other and 1 of them just rolled over the other due to the toss guessing the wrong angle where the dropships would land. We can safely say this is a balanceproblem. On the other hand, starbow has not many games played (and more importantly, not many games of players of the same skilllevel, a stronger player will win regardless of balance), so my point is that you jump too fast to conclusions. Anyway, i'll lay low for a while cuz you're clearly getting pissed off. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
where/under which name do I find those "destructable minerals" in the editor? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Great post above! This is exactly what we need more off - breakdown of numbers. @Xiphias Splash damage is reduced by 50% to units under Dark Swarm already. Is it not good enough atm? @Guardian I am not sure if I wanna buff them yet. We have not seen many games with them? @Solid Sorry if I sounded harsh. I am not upset at you or at anyone else. I wrote my post 3 am last night, and I just wanted to make myself clear. @Big J Search for "Regenerative Mineral Field" | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
They are kinda cute, though, and probably make the Terran feel uneasy or panic, even though there is really no reason, seeing as how Goliaths, Science Vessels, Goliaths Vikings and even Goliaths really rape them. I'd like to say that I've won some ZvMech despite having built Guardians, not cause I have built them. *This post is referring to ZvT Guardians, dunno about ZvP | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Every once in a while a larger change like this is implemented into the game. Something that is quite radical. The reason I still add stuff like this is simply because we have no other idea of knowing if it will work, besides testing it in game. Starbow is still a project under development. I get a lots of suggestions from you all, and there is not time to try everything. I can only choose what I think has the highest potential to improve the game. Hider, Sumadin and some other players have for the last two weeks presented a good theorethic base for the Marauder/Immortal, and I think it made enough sense in theory to be worth a try. I know many of you do not like it. And I am willing to revert the changes after some more testing, if we find that games do not become more exciting/dynamic. (Which is the purpose of the new units.) I do of course not mind if we continue to discuss this. In fact, I think it is important. I have aimed to be as open as possible with the development, just because opinions/thoughts/ideas/critiscm from all of you who play and observe tha game are important. Without all of your help with playtesting, Starbow would have been dead a long time ago. And I know we all want the game to become as good as possible. We just have different views on how to get there. Thank you for your patience regarding this. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=327#6538 | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/h4nOQDG.jpg) I hope natural to natural distance isn't too much of a problem, else I'm quite confident that this layout could work out. | ||
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On July 14 2013 07:20 Kabel wrote: Don´t miss to comment on the next patch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=327#6538 Sorry! I will be gone in next week btw with only limited options to comment and no options to watch games. That said right now I got the options. So Feedback time! Oracl... I mean Sentinel fixes. Sounds fine brings it more in line with what we want from it. Ultralisk... Buff seems fine, also considering both protoss and Terran just got a new anti-armor tool. Viking change is fine. Rift: I think you might also wanna try to decrease the "stun time" of rifted units. Makes it better anti-drop. AOE turrets: No no NOOOOO! Alright in case I didn't make my stance clear with my previous feedback to Hider here is my response on this. This is a terrible idea. It will essentially allow mech players to make their "no-fly zones" out on the map even more powerful than they are now. Completely shutting down air counters to tanks with stuff that doesn't cost supply. I will be honest, I don't mind turret-rings. It is one of the best way to place a timer on the bio player and force the transition to higher tier support units. I wouldn't mind if we got to a place where pure bio is viable through its drop capabilities but is forced to transition once the turret defenses gets too strong. If we want to make this drop play happen more, buff drops. If we want to increase the timer for drop based play then (slightly) increase the cost of static defense. In SC2 only the PF got AOE out of all static defense. It works because it is bulky and costs 550min/150gas. Everything else is single target and is so for a reason. Pure protoss gateway units are supposed to have hard time without late tier support, that is how having such strong late-tier units like the reaver is balanced. When Stalkers gets 2 shot by tanks and Yamato does 300 damage AOE, then we can come back and talk about if pure protoss gateway should beat bio. Gateway/Warp gate dynamic? It is dumb, stupid and confusing. Throw it out and put the immortal on the robotics if it is too strong to be warped in. Feedback done | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I do continue with the Gateway/Warpgate mechanic atm. There are some bad aspects too it, but there are also some things I like with it. So I do not change it now. I am uploading the new patch now and I will write the patch notes here. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
- Immortal starts with 2 extra damage. (17 vs light, 22 vs all, 27 vs armored) - Marauder has 1 less damage. (10 vs all, 15 vs armored) After some testing in the unit test map, these values seems to be somewhat decent. The extra Immortal dmg is enough to make them kill Hydras and Marauders in one less shot. - Increase Null Wad energy cost from 25 to 50. - Decrease Sentinel damage from 8 to 6. - Removed the Ultralisk Charge ability - Ultralisk damage up from 20 to 30. - Decreased Viking speed movement from 3.5 to 3.35 (Same as Scout and Devourer.) - Increased the amount of units Rift can teleport to the Nexus by 2. (It can teleport 5 units now.) - Guardian damage increased from 20 to 25. - High Templar can research 25 extra staring energy. Bug fixes! I think this was everythig.. Hmm.. Edit: I also upload Jays new map since Canyon get removed. There are some more maps waiting to be tested that might come in the future. But atm, since I upload patches quite frequently, and we explore the Marauder/Immortal dynamic, I would prefer to not have too large map pool. It is so time consuming for my slow computer to patch every map. : / | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Edit: lol, me and Dec are on the ball! | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Archon attack range got buffed in the last patch. Their damage got buffed in the patch before that. I compared to the old Archon we had pre-HoTS, and the stats are almost similar. Not sure why the Archon seems to be so underused atm. It rarely sees play. @Null explosion I let it remain as a line attack. It allows more manual play from Protoss, since they can actually select the Null sphere (Null ward? I have to decide on a name T_T) and target enemy units. An explosion might make it feel just like a Protoss Spider mine. Any specific reasons you would prefer to see it as an explosion? (Apart that it would be less bug free and easier to make..) | ||
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