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Problem with wraiths is they are gonna be either useless or op. AA combined with cloak and decent Atg attack is gonna give toss hard time. On the other hand banshee can have good atg attack.
Banshee is superior in every way. If you really want to change something then just make banshee faster and more fragile or give it small aoe dmg.
Well wraiths won't be meant to attack or fight against stalkers, but rather should be about picking up a few drones here and there, and then fly away to a new location. I don't see the theoretical argument for why that can't work.
Banshee is superior in every way. If you really want to change something then just make banshee faster and more fragile or give it small aoe dmg.
Well that would be a wraith if it was given anti-air damage and without moving shot And as I think vikings are kinda pointless, but still think terran needs something at startech that can shoot air, I prefer the wraith over the banshee.
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Banshee is also not supposed vs stalkers, and vs blink wraiths are exactly as shity as banshees, with that exception you need lot of themto kill anything before defences arrive.
Also combining AA with cloak is bad idea. Vs 4+ wraiths only defence will be cannon (which on the other hand is untouchable for wraiths) as observer will be oneshoted. And add to that strong AtG atack. No, bad idea. That's impossible to make them fit in pvt.
Instead of screwing fine unit it it would be better to focus on fixing bad one - viking.
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On April 26 2013 23:22 Danko__ wrote:
Banshee is also not supposed vs stalkers, and vs blink wraiths are exactly as shity as banshees, with that exception you need lot of themto kill anything before defences arrive.
Also combining AA with cloak is bad idea. Vs 4+ wraiths only defence will be cannon (which on the other hand is untouchable for wraiths) as observer will be oneshoted. And add to that strong AtG atack. No, bad idea. That's impossible to make them fit in pvt.
Instead of screwing fine unit it it would be better to focus on fixing bad one - viking.
Well the difference between wraiths and banshees in the midgame (assuming you have roughly 4) vs blink stalkers will be this;
Banshee: Kill 5-10 probes - Then he tries to escape when he sees the toss players blink stalkers. But in the proces he loses 1-2 banshees.
Wratihs (which should have shorter attack animation, higher acceleration and movement speed but less DPS and health): Kills 3-6 probes, but the terran player will only lose 0-1 wraiths vs a blink defense.
Obiviously there are advantages and disadvantages to both units, but I feel like wratihs (if done correctly) will reward more micro.
Regarding cloack: That ability can just be removed, and we can instead compensate the Wraith in a different way.
Instead of screwing fine unit it it would be better to focus on fixing bad one - viking.
You have any ideas? Personally I just don't think terrans need a strong anti-air unit at starport tech. Ground anti-air units like the Marine and Goliath are just more exciting.
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Unit test map "Starbow tester" Updated!
@Tempest
It seems to be too weak, but strong in large quantities.
@Upgrade
Costs and bt seem strange:
Stasis field: 50/150 bt 50
Consume: 50/100 bt 50
On sc2 the minor bt is 80 seconds. On this bt are normally associated costs 100/100.
Other cost are 150/150 with 110 or 160 bt.
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On April 26 2013 23:51 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 23:22 Danko__ wrote:
Banshee is also not supposed vs stalkers, and vs blink wraiths are exactly as shity as banshees, with that exception you need lot of themto kill anything before defences arrive.
Also combining AA with cloak is bad idea. Vs 4+ wraiths only defence will be cannon (which on the other hand is untouchable for wraiths) as observer will be oneshoted. And add to that strong AtG atack. No, bad idea. That's impossible to make them fit in pvt.
Instead of screwing fine unit it it would be better to focus on fixing bad one - viking. Well the difference between wraiths and banshees in the midgame (assuming you have roughly 4) vs blink stalkers will be this; Banshee: Kill 5-10 probes - Then he tries to escape when he sees the toss players blink stalkers. But in the proces he loses 1-2 banshees. Wratihs (which should have shorter attack animation, higher acceleration and movement speed but less DPS and health): Kills 3-6 probes, but the terran player will only lose 0-1 wraiths vs a blink defense. Obiviously there are advantages and disadvantages to both units, but I feel like wratihs (if done correctly) will reward more micro. Regarding cloack: That ability can just be removed, and we can instead compensate the Wraith in a different way.
My thoughts exactly, except for the last part. Losing Cloak would be a step backwards for a unit that had it in BW. If necessary, Wraith energy could be lowered, or the Cloak research cost increased, but I don't think it's broken. Cloak is actually much more OP on the Banshee than it ever was on a Wraith.
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Implying that Cloak is op.
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Have to agree. I don't like how cloak in WoL worked, it was far more a move of 'AHA, you don't have detection, therefore I win' rather than a form of map control or harass but not necessarily ending the game. Wraiths are cooler because they don't completely butcher mineral lines in that sense.
I like how burrowed roaches work, the moment you see them and you have no obs you have to pull back to your cannons but it's not like they end the game.
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It was discussed the topic banshee / wraith. Wraith not work because make few damage for his cost, besides in greats quantity, is op because can destroy easily fly detectors, and detectors build using vessel nerve jammer.
Banshee is more effective (of wraith) in his work, and can be useful in mid / late game to defend the expansions (from lurkers, reavers, tank), or to attack defenseless enemy bases (without antiair).
Bring back wraith is a step back.
@Antiair:
You have to understand how it is made up of anti-aircraft terrans. Viking, what it does? is the counter to the light units (in great mass as mutalisks) or is it an anti armor air units (as capital ship)?
And bc? what it does?
Currently i see that viking counter light and armor air units, while Bc is an useless unit. Yamato is a great ability for kill easily units more robust (with more hp).
Must be assigned to these 2 units more precise tasks.
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-. Warpin + Blink reduces greatly amount of time for terran to harass with wraiths.
-. One banshee is treat and has to be dealt with immediately. No matter if wraiths will get slight buffs to AtG, you will still need at least couple to really do something. In BW wraiths had equivalent sc2 8dmg with 1,72cd (almost 9sec to kill probe, 11 to kill drone, 13 to kill scv), even if we would buff it SIGNIFICANTLY to like 10dmg/1,5sec then still 2 wraths are less scary.
-. Have to agree. I don't like how cloak in WoL worked, it was far more a move of 'AHA, you don't have detection, therefore I win' rather than a form of map control or harass but not necessarily ending the game. Wraiths are cooler because they don't completely butcher mineral lines in that sense. You are wrong. Wraiths are even worse here. Zerg has no detection, wraiths will start sniping morphing ovies. Toss has no detection, Wraiths will just snipe observer and keep killing and terran will keep stacking more and more of them.
-. Wraiths are gonna be another unit completely nullified by static defences. And really only by static defences due to obs sniping potential. 2-3 banshees at least can try sniping buildings under construction or single static defences, so they can still be treat even to lightly protected bases.
-. We have tried already wraiths. I really was excited about adding them back then, but i changed my mind after really short time. Only viable way to play them was allining with them, massing more and more sniping obses/overseers. That was not even worth to build single wraith otherwise. Vultures were better and cheaper scouts. Goliaths and Vessels were better AA, their only real usage was to snipe warpprisms carring HTs/Reavers (they actually did that job quite well), but i dont think thats enough.
About vikings:
Maybe give them seeker-missle-like default attack? Not spell, but normal attack. So you can run from them, or split units. Dunno, just thought.
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It was discussed the topic banshee / wraith. Wraith not work because make few damage for his cost, besides in greats quantity, is op because can destroy easily fly detectors, and detectors build using vessel nerve jammer.
I've already replied to all those concerns.
One banshee is treat and has to be dealt with immediately. No matter if wraiths will get slight buffs to AtG, you will still need at least couple to really do something. In BW wraiths had equivalent sc2 8dmg with 1,72cd (almost 9sec to kill probe, 11 to kill drone, 13 to kill scv), even if we would buff it SIGNIFICANTLY to like 10dmg/1,5sec then still 2 wraths are less scary.
Is that neccarily worse design?
Only viable way to play them was allining with them, massing more and more sniping obses/overseers.
Yeh but with a DPS buff, removal of cloack and possible supply increase (if they become to good when massed), why wouldn't this work?
They are not really meant as a main AA, but they need antiair if vikings gets removed (because then wraith vs wraith openings in tvt would be ridicilous).
Maybe give them seeker-missle-like default attack? Not spell, but normal attack. So you can run from them, or split units.
Problem with that as a default attack is that it will require more skill to play against than to use.
Wraiths are gonna be another unit completely nullified by static defences. And really only by static defences due to obs sniping potential. 2-3 banshees at least can try sniping buildings under construction or single static defences, so they can still be treat even to lightly protected bases.
I imagine that Wraiths can minimize damage taken from static defenses with great micro as the Wraith should have very quick accelaration and short attack duration.
Also we can replace cloack upgrade with a range-upgrade, which will make static defenses even less efficient, and which will also make them somewhat decent at kite-attacking stalkers (if covered by a tank-line), hydras and marines.
Only viable way to play them was allining with them, massing more and more sniping obses/overseers. That was not even worth to build single wraith otherwise
IMO it sounds like Wraiths didn't work because stats weren't tweaked correctly (balance issue). From a design perspective (regarding viability) we have to ask this question;
Can we buff the wraiths in order to make it viable in a lot of situations without making it OP in other situations?
I think we can, though it will require quite a bit of tweaking to get them right.
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One banshee is treat and has to be dealt with immediately. No matter if wraiths will get slight buffs to AtG, you will still need at least couple to really do something. In BW wraiths had equivalent sc2 8dmg with 1,72cd (almost 9sec to kill probe, 11 to kill drone, 13 to kill scv), even if we would buff it SIGNIFICANTLY to like 10dmg/1,5sec then still 2 wraths are less scary.
Is that neccarily worse design?
Yes. With such unit it is. Units like this should offer some utility even if you will get one. What are you going to do with 1 wraith? Try to kill 1 worker? Its not even worth investment. For scouting its better to use scan/reaper/vulture (all cheaper, accessible earlier with additional utility).
Maybe give them seeker-missle-like default attack? Not spell, but normal attack. So you can run from them, or split units.
Problem with that as a default attack is that it will require more skill to play against than to use
Give it very long attack range but very short follow range. So vikings will try to get as close as possible, while mutas (as mainly vs that unit it would be used) will try to dance forcing rockets or dealing some damage. Also, microing vikings would allow to use missles separately, not wasting all at once.
Wraiths are gonna be another unit completely nullified by static defences. And really only by static defences due to obs sniping potential. 2-3 banshees at least can try sniping buildings under construction or single static defences, so they can still be treat even to lightly protected bases.
I imagine that Wraiths can minimize damage taken from static defenses with great micro as the Wraith should have very quick accelaration and short attack duration.
Also we can replace cloack upgrade with a range-upgrade, which will make static defenses even less efficient, and which will also make them somewhat decent at kite-attacking stalkers (if covered by a tank-line), hydras and marines.
Im not sure, but well, maybe range upgrade is not bad idea. Definitely something to consider (if wraiths are gonna be revived).
Yeh but with a DPS buff, removal of cloack and possible supply increase (if they become to good when massed), why wouldn't this work?
They are not really meant as a main AA, but they need antiair if vikings gets removed (because then wraith vs wraith openings in tvt would be ridicilous).
So, after range upgrade, long range, fast, flying sniper unit with some (AA) additional utility? I kinda like it, but would be cool to use different model. Wraiths are fast cloaked ships with primary role as AA.
Only viable way to play them was allining with them, massing more and more sniping obses/overseers. That was not even worth to build single wraith otherwise
IMO it sounds like Wraiths didn't work because stats weren't tweaked correctly (balance issue). From a design perspective (regarding viability) we have to ask this question;
Can we buff the wraiths in order to make it viable in a lot of situations without making it OP in other situations?
I think we can, though it will require quite a bit of tweaking to get them right.
Wraiths dont fit to starbow cause races are different than in BW now. Zergs have queens as (basically mandatory) very effective early game AA. Protosses have blink/warpin/recall. Only terran has no new tools, but stim marines, and turrets should deal with them just fine.
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Yes. With such unit it is. Units like this should offer some utility even if you will get one. What are you going to do with 1 wraith? Try to kill 1 worker? Its not even worth investment. For scouting its better to use scan/reaper/vulture (all cheaper, accessible earlier with additional utility).
So you can't do a lot of damage untill you have 3-5 wraiths, I agree, but I don't think its a huge concern. Besides, we can reduce building time to make it "easier/faster" for the terran to get this amount of wraiths out. This may sound crazy, but what about something really low like 20-25 second build time? Would that break anything?
So, after range upgrade, long range, fast, flying sniper unit with some (AA) additional utility?
It shouldn't be cost effective as AA, but I imagine that you can use it to kill overlords (which will give it a bit of utility untill you have enough to kill drones) and other wraiths. Vs protoss it will obviouusly be somewhat able to shutdown warp prism harass, which I am not sure I really like (because I like that protoss has a period in the game where they can harass in a "risk-free" way).
But on the other hand it will bring a bit more diversity to the game (assuming wraiths openings become viable) as it will now be the terran player who can harass in the early and early midgame.
Wraiths dont fit to starbow cause races are different than in BW now. Zergs have queens as (basically mandatory) very effective early game AA. Protosses have blink/warpin/recall
But that doesn't mean we can't adjust it a bit to make it work. Obviously the BW-wraith won't work, but I don't see the theoretical argument for why a modified version shouldn't work.
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How about leaving the banshee as it is and making the viking more "specialized"? Make it more expencive, have a good plash from the start and more hp. Also transform jsut so it can useful if you kill all your oppodent's air?
Any thoughts?
I have some thoughts on Ghost and Nullifier, I will share later, but most importantly: We need more games with the new MOD to specifically find "holes". Go play some games 
Also: Join the Tournament! We'll try to get some prize money, I just don't have any atm.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409742
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On April 27 2013 08:01 Xiphias wrote:How about leaving the banshee as it is and making the viking more "specialized"? Make it more expencive, have a good plash from the start and more hp. Also transform jsut so it can useful if you kill all your oppodent's air? Any thoughts? I have some thoughts on Ghost and Nullifier, I will share later, but most importantly: We need more games with the new MOD to specifically find "holes". Go play some games Also: Join the Tournament! We'll try to get some prize money, I just don't have any atm. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409742
1) I feel wraiths has more micro potential than banshee.
2) Strong anti is boring on air units unless they require a ridicilous amount of micro to work succesfully. Maybe Dankos suggestion can work, but I think the current version of it (even if you twist stats) will remain quite boring.
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@ Wraiths/Banshees
Yeah you need more than one Wraith to accomplish something, whereas a single Banshee has utility. But... that doesn't actually... mean anything? Wraiths are cheaper and easier to get than Banshees, plus can be built two at a time with Reactors. You can't accomplish anything with one Mutalisk either, does that make it a badly designed unit that you need to go all-in with to make useful???
With tweaks, Wraiths will be much more fun and micro-intensive than Banshees, and useful in more situations.
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I'm just gonna sneak in a post here.
You can't accomplish anything with one Mutalisk either, does that make it a badly designed unit that you need to go all-in with to make useful???
Yes, I would argue it is a badly designed phenomena in the game. Everything that needs to reach a certain kind of "critical mass" to even become useful contributes to dull gameplay. (Atleast what I consider dull gameplay in a RTS-game.) That does not mean that the Mutalisk itself is badly designed, rather is the game badly designed around the mutalisk :p
On the other hand, Starcraft is based on reaching a critical mass or number in oh-so-many-ways. But all mechanics in Starcraft are not good mechanics. I am convinced that the next generation of RTS-games will move past many of the classic ingredients in Starcraft and similar games.
Bla bla bla
Good night and keep up the good work!
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That's an odd way of thinking, in my opinion. I don't see a design problem at all with some units needing to achieve a certain quantity in order to become useful. That's how real war works. You don't send one soldier to accomplish a task that requires a battalion; you don't send one tank to secure a mountain pass. So, you don't send a single Mutalisk or Wraith to harass a defended mineral line. Needing multiple units to make an effective raiding squadron doesn't necessarily have relevance to dull gameplay. BW mutalisk micro is amazingly skill-intensive and extremely exciting to watch but it wouldn't work with just a couple of them, you need a stack.
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@Cloak
Suggestion/idea:
Make cloak with a duration time (as 30 sec) after activation. Finished the cloak effect you have to wait 60 seconds to be able to reuse the ability. Banshee can lose the energy bar if necessary, or add 50 energy for activation of cloak.
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No one want to play in the tournament ??? 
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On April 27 2013 08:01 Xiphias wrote:
How about leaving the banshee as it is and making the viking more "specialized"? Make it more expencive, have a good plash from the start and more hp. Also transform jsut so it can useful if you kill all your oppodent's air?
Any thoughts?
Sounds like what I've been saying since forever... Valkyrie <3 ... Minus the transforming part, of course *cough*
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EPT
