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Good morning, I have a couple of free hours now that I will devote to the editor. If I manange to fix all the stuff on my "to-do list" I will try to have the patch uploaded later tonight, since I have some more free hours during the evening/night.
On December 08 2012 18:00 Danko__ wrote:
Corsair: better vs ligh/worse vs armored/no gravitron beam?
Wouldnt that make him useless in pvt and pvp (right now they are already quite situational)?
If I put it like this:
How can the Scout and Corsair co-exist in the game while both units still have their role, purpose and meaning in the game?
Its not a rhetorical question. Im curiously asking. Can both units be adjusted to actually fit into the game without making one of them useless? If so, how?
(Again, its only an exploration of the possibilities.)
@Danko
Cooldowns on energy based abilities like lockdown or storm. 1. Makes energy management much easier (units which have casted spell already wont waste more energy, which leads to optimal energy usage distribution), 2. Lowers units potential and forces skill to be enough strong to make up for time you cant use it. You cant choose with ghost to disable 1 unit for 40 sec or 4 units for 10sec. You cant choose with ht to cover more ground with storms and waste more energy, and as opponent you wont force toss to waste 2 storms if single ht defends.
I agree that cooldown on spells can limit the options for players. They can not shoot 2 lockdowns at the same time etc. So I will remove cooldown on most spells. I do hesitate to do it on psi-storm since its so easy to cover an entire battlefield in storms. 5-10 HT can go from 0% dmg output to 100% dmg output in a HUGE area in a blink of an eye. It just did not feel fun or fair earlier in the MOD when P could win entire battles with just storm blankets. Hm Hm Hm..
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couple of balance/design-thoughts:
i cannot figure out a stable way to play PvZ since i have no terms of scouting vs a good zerg that gets quick speed, simply because the current hydra's and zerglings are too strong earlygame. This means i have no way to scout for what's coming next: hydrabust/banelingbust/quick lurker(with or without drops)/muta's/... . It's extremely risky to not make any gateway units in case of an early bust, but then you can't really tech up. The best way i've found to play pvz is going double stargate with a lot of cannons and eventually transitioning into carriers, i hardly think this should be the way to play the matchup.
I beg you, decrease ling health and remove standard 5 range on hydra's and either remove the +20hp upgrade or move it lair/hive-tech, i cannot test the nullifier if i cannot scout when i might be able to use it. might wanna revert the zealot/marine hp aswell to keep things fair.
science vessel with irradiate dominates tvz, while that isn't so bad at all, there should be some way to deal with em, which should be the scourge, but they seem too weak to get close at all, maybe a slight buff for scourge hp?
I believe the zerg should focus on keeping the vessel count low, because when it gets out of hand there is just no stopping them. Might need to test some more before changing.
On the same topic, if a small unit gets irradiated, it's hard to isolate it, maybe increase visuals on it?
Mech tvp feels much better so far.
I must agree with other people about benign units, feels out of place.
I strongly dislike vortex, even if it's just on small units. And getting a statis off on a mech army with nullifier seems pretty much impossible without messing with game engine and making it benign. I'd like to see statis back on arbiter and simply remove vortex.
plague is very weak atm.
edit: @No cooldown on storms:
If the radius is a bit smaller it would be easier to dodge one and you wouldn't be able to blanket whole screen with a few HT. Besides, storm is mainly vs ling/hydra/muta, which are all fast units, you should be able to bait out some storms and dodge them. More micro in the game, profit!
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Good, remove the cooldowns. How about leaving the cooldown on ht's storm at the moment since the storm numbers will be fixed soon anyway and see if it should be removed later.
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But whats wrong with covering whole battlefield with storms? Just back off for few seconds and attack again when hts are out of energy.
Problem with PvZ is not lack of scouting. Speedlings early are necessary if z want to cheese. Queens wont deny scouting of 3rd. Its big investment. Problem is that after that investment zerg bust is still very strong due to long range hydras without upgrade and cannons wasting lots of time killing lings. Nerf to these will make it bit more even with cheesiest cheeses and safer ones :D.
Science vessels imho are way too massable and accessible too early. I would really love to see one more building before them (like in BW). There is very, VERY small window when z has lurks and t doesn't have vessels (and has to rely on scans). Also, lategame mass vessels vs zerg is fucking imba. Its not like scourges cant get close cause they have too small hp pool. Vessels are just too fast and have insane acceleration.
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Btw:
Science vessel time/resources required to get:
starbow:
500minerals/200gas (rax+fact+starport+techlab)
~250sec +69sec each vessel.
vessel: 100mins/200gas
irradiate: 100mins/100gas (but more expensive cast)
broodwar:
650/400 (rax+fact+starport+control tower + science facility)
205sec +55sec each vessel.
vessel: 100/225
irradiate: 200/200 (cheaper cast)
They are cheaper. Are in game much faster and are easier to control. And also i have feeling like their acceleration is way too good.
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I think corsairs should keep graviton, and scouts should do bonus armored and maybe have some kind of detection ability? I mean, their name IS scout. Why not give them some ability to scout, maybe a really large vision range? Detection would allow Protoss to go for stargate builds without requiring a robo for detection, thereby making the Obs on Nexus change needless.
Corsairs are anti light unit with harass ability and lockdown with splash attack, whereas Scouts would be anti-capital ships with ground attack and detection? That's different enough that they don't overlap, I think. It might be too good at lurker and minefield destruction, though.
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Honestly, corsairs were always better scouts than scouts  . Maybe they could have some form of detection. But if so then very limited.
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Make them air supiriority fighters. Long vision (with detection spell that depleets their shields perhaps?) fairly fast, but with short attack range. Getting many Scouts should be the ultimate way of saying: "I'm controlling the skies, and you need to get something ground based to beat this". Unlike Corsairs, they should not be hit and run raiders, but comitting to fights.
Upgrades could be to vision range/detection and to unlock thier ground attack.
This leaves Corsairs to be a reactionary unit for mass mutas or banshees, while being a harassment and raiding unit at the same time. The Scout is a unit you build to get control of the skies by beating everything in air to air combat.
In short, a fast heavy hitting beefy air fighter with short range for direct air engagements. Kinda like the Zealots of the skies.
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On December 08 2012 19:39 Danko__ wrote:
Problem with PvZ is not lack of scouting. Speedlings early are necessary if z want to cheese. Queens wont deny scouting of 3rd. Its big investment. Problem is that after that investment zerg bust is still very strong due to long range hydras without upgrade and cannons wasting lots of time killing lings. Nerf to these will make it bit more even with cheesiest cheeses and safer ones :D.
Too many cheeses that all require a different reaction, so without completely changing zerg the problem lies in not dieing to the earliest rushes while making robo or stargate early to scout the techrushes. Yes, dealing with 100 hp/5 range hydra's that early in the game is a pain in the ass.
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Different reactions? Not exactly. And you can respond in many ways. And basically you gotta only identify if zerg is getting 3rd/lair/hydra den
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Would be nice if we could get a player group together on EU. At what time can you all come online today?
I think I can get the new patch up fairly soon, maybe 2 hours from now. And I am not doing anything tonight so I can be online during the evening too. Instead of me sitting in the editor and theory-craft the ultimate patch I can upload a decent one with the changes made so far. So we can try it and see how it feels. I will release a patch note soon.
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@corsair
without radius graviton can not be used as arass
@scout
the work of the scout is what he had to do voidray.
@voidray
to remove it, without trying to change it a couple of times. My idea was to make voidray, a unit anti air (armored), Also a disturber. + Show Spoiler +Removing the attack vs ground units and adding a special attack vs. buildings (high dps), but only a void at a time can attack the same construction.
For each patch the game seems to want to take the directions of bw, more than sc2. When it should be, the good sc1 things and the good sc2 things. It seems that there is nothing good sc2.
I hope that these changes will benefit.
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There is nothing good left to copy/port over from sc2. Warpgate, creep spread, chronoboost, blink, techlab/reactor mechanic, broodlord. Anything else cool in sc2?
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The fundamental problem with Void ray is the way the attack works. It must attack a long time on a unit to deal high damage. Units that can attack, move back, attack etc are often more interesting since it allows for more micro and back and forth combats. Even if Voidrays could only attack air units and buildings, I don´t see how it would really improve the unit. It would be good vs large air units, like it is now. It would be good vs buildings, like it is now.
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I expressed myself badly when I gave the attack and damage values, I meant also to eliminate the charge capacity of the attack and give a fixed damage. 20 damage (example) makes them the first attack, same thing against buildings.
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On December 08 2012 21:18 Danko__ wrote:
Different reactions? Not exactly. And you can respond in many ways. And basically you gotta only identify if zerg is getting 3rd/lair/hydra den
ling/banelingbust : solid wall + extra cannons
hydrabust: extra cannons + stalkers (which get softcountered by hydra's btw) and rebuilding the buildings of the wall - or i should blindly rush for a reaver...
dropplay: some gateway units + extra cannons in main, possible obs if there are lurkers with them
muta: lots of stalkers (let's face it, stalkers don't trade well with muta's), extra cannons, possible corsairs are needed for backup and tech for storm/archons and you still aren't sure if zerg will keep massing mutas or techswitch after 10 mutas. Meanwhile you need to try to get a third up while needing to defend your main and nat, pretty hard on most maps. + archons are fat thus easely get stuck between buildings. Other possibility to hold it off is going double stargate pretty early.
Those are the most used rushes, all can be deadly and currently you have no way of scouting either one until they hit you. Atm i have to blindly pick a build and hope it doesn't suck too bad versus what you're doing. Most importantly, after holding off the initial pressure you have to be ready for the techswitch if it comes.
Best thing to do is double stargate and rely on imbaness of massed corsairs.
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On December 08 2012 21:48 Danko__ wrote:
There is nothing good left to copy/port over from sc2. Warpgate, creep spread, chronoboost, blink, techlab/reactor mechanic, broodlord. Anything else cool in sc2?
Thors maybe? Terran Factory seems a bit lonely. But what purpose can Thors bring? Anti building? Can we turn into a mech caster maybe? No clue.
Terran drops are kind of boring atm, and the Speed Boost upgrade that HotS has could be really cool.
Seeker Missile is the single best idea in sc2 imo.
I like the Colossi model, a redesign to make the unit fun would be nice.
Reaper, Marauder, and Roach could maybe be used, though they'd need huge redesigns.
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You can defend early hydra/bling with same thing. Wall+cannons+units.
If you scout lair you can expect lurk/drop/muta so you make cannon in mineral line and get sairs or blink.
Later busts you get either ht or reaver.
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New patch uploaded on EU!
Before I do any more work I need to try this.
First of all let me present the three larger changes. I will be cruel to this stuff. If it does not work it will be reverted very soon again. I just want to try it.
- Dragoon has replaced Stalker. It has NOT blink. (I could not get blink to work as intented so I try it without Blink.) The Dragoon will now depend more on other forms of mobility - Warp in and Arbiters. It is a little bit stronger than Stalkers.
- Scout has replaced Void ray. Scouts work as in BW but are a bit cheaper now. Maybe will the combination of Corsairs anti-gravity be nice together with Scouts high dmg vs single targets. Maybe can the scout be a good air-snipe-unit. 4-5 can easiliy snipe warp prism, vessels, arbiters, swarm guardians etc.
- Nullifier has been reworked. As long as it has shield there will be a visible bubble around it. It will be "benign" and will not be auto-attacked by the enemy. If it looses its shield it can be attacked as normal. As long as the Nullifier attacks any unit that unit will have its attack disabled. It has three spells:
- It can cast Null Field at an area. All units and buildings who are in that area becomes benign.
- It can upgrade Feedback with AoE dmg at robo bay.
- It can upgrade Stasis Field at robo bay.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vdhNJ.jpg)
Ok, these are the most experimental changes. If it sucks it will be reverted to Stalker and Void Ray soon again. If the benign stuff of the Nullifier turns to be extremely annoying and odd I will scrap all that and just make it simple... Maybe an air unit or something.. Or just bring back the Dark Archon and stop being a dick >.<
Ps. In terms of lore, the Nullifier has a "shield bubble" around its body that prevents it from being detected by enemy weapons .. ^^
Other changes
Frenzy still increases move and attack speed by 20%. But frenzied units takes 20% more damage AND frenzy can effect enemy units too.
Spider mines have been reworked. Its hard to explain how. Simply they unburrow, stand still for 1 sec and are benign. After that, they move fast towards the enemy and they can be auto-attacked during that time. Try it in game to better understand it.
Combat shield upgrade reduces splash dmg by 25%. (Lets see how it turns out. Will this make marines more played in TvT and TvP and will it be good for the game?)
A High ground system with 50% miss chance has been sent to me from decemberscalm <3
(For some reasons I get error messages when I add the trigger to old Starbow maps. So this system is ONLY added to the new map Abaddon Blaze so far.)
Auto-Turret no longer benign (Its a Protoss thing instead)
High templar cast Psi storm and starts with Hallucination.
Stats changes
As I said, I would not do any drastic or major stats changes in this patch. But I have adjusted some of the most critical things people have reported.
- Plague buffed. It deals 150 dmg over 30 seconds instead of 120 dmg over 60 seconds. (Twice dmg vs massive units)
- Hydra range decreased by 1.
- Archons armored
- Vessel acceleration and movement speed reduced
- Psi storm dmg reverted to its old value.
I have NOT:
- managed to fix some kind of Corsair moving shot
- fixed the reaver. Its decent, but not perfect
- reworked the spells of Ghost and Vessel. (I looked at som variants and possible line-up of spells. I experimented with EMP removes energy AND disables mechanical units abilities.. or move speed.. But nothing of this made it into the game yet.. )
I think thats it.
Ps. New map being uploaded too: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385595
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So hydras just have 4 range now?
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From a first aspect, the patch I like it, even if i am contrary with the addition of dragoons and the removal of the blinkers (stab to the heart). Alternatively, move the dragon's attack to the stalker. The replacement of the void in favor of the scout it does not make me hot and cold it, both play the same job. (voidray) just add some motivation to use, how to make it useful to annoy the opponent.
Nullifier, I've always liked from the first appearance, unit full of potential to discover.
@patch
+1
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EPT
