-The naturals are now the same size (the top was slightly bigger) -Aesthetic changes! -LoS blockers at one of the entrances to the third base. This was done to further encourage expanding to the 4th base, as there was very little 4-base play when I tested it extensively. -Middle has more water! The new water is pathable.
Meh, not much... -Main ramp changed so that it can be walled normally. -More doodads. -Slight retexturing -Natural expo choke decreased from 11 squares to 9 -Water!
As always, I'm looking for honest, constructive feedback. Please leave your two cents! Changes from 1.0: + Show Spoiler +
-Old ridge above third moved. -Some unpathable structure added, making the third easier to hold. The structure is not pathable. (unless I messed up...) -Rocks on third moved to gold. -Much less open. -Watchtower split into two and moved to thirds. -Corner expansions are slightly bigger. -Fixed an issue that a mineral patch on the blue 4th overlapped with a geyser. -The Natural expansion is bigger. -Added a hole near the gold bases to make it less open there. -Doodads added!
I also pm'd Barrin to ask him to change the thread title to [M](2)Korhal Brawl.
Naturals are 10 squares wide. You can either expand clockwise and take the third blocked by rocks -> high ground 4th --> High ground 5th or expand counterclockwise and risk the gold -->counterclockwise corner base and then take your blocked base. There's a ridge above the blocked third that allows you to position units there to guard your third more easily. You can wall off your main with 2 barracks/gateways. more?
UPDATE 9/16: Most, if not all changes have been addressed. The mains are larger, the fourth bases have been fixed (mineral issue), and the middle is less open. Mods, please change the thread title to [M](2)Korhal Brawl. The map: + Show Spoiler +
10/28ish update!
Toyed with the water, eventually removed it. Some more doodads. ..
Ok, I mainly just wanted to bump this, plus the deadline for the TL map contest is coming up, so...
Ok, I completely changed this map because I could. ^^ Less circle syndrome, islands, more accessable middle! + Show Spoiler +
-Added islands -Opened up paths into the middle to make it more accessable -Added islands -Created a backdoor path into the third -Removed the golds -Moved 4ths further up -Added another base between 4th and 5th -Made watchtowers less defensive. -Natural choke width reduced to 9 squares -Water :D -Tiny other aesthetic changes. -Map made bigger.
I would give a little more space at the 3 and 9 bases behind the minerals so it's not so hard to chase out drops and air harass. The open center isn't that bad, it's similar to Shattered Temple. Just include a couple small obstacles somewhere to help break up the space.
Your only big problem is that the main is way too small. Maybe shove the nat over a bit to expand the main to about 30CCs. 30-35 seems good for a map like this.
Also I don't understand why there are rocks on the protected 3rd. Why not just... not have rocks? Or if anything, put them on the gold.
Uh... sadly, this isn't the image I had in mind about a winding city... This is kinda makes me think of a mall with a wide open parking lot. :/
How short is it base to base? This almost looks as short as Steppes of War.
Think Shattered temple close air. And yeah, I'm changing the name soon. I was really tired when I made the map.
I would give a little more space at the 3 and 9 bases behind the minerals so it's not so hard to chase out drops and air harass. The open center isn't that bad, it's similar to Shattered Temple. Just include a couple small obstacles somewhere to help break up the space.
Your only big problem is that the main is way too small. Maybe shove the nat over a bit to expand the main to about 30CCs. 30-35 seems good for a map like this.
Also I don't understand why there are rocks on the protected 3rd. Why not just... not have rocks? Or if anything, put them on the gold.
The rocks are there because this is supposed to be blizzard-map-like :D I know the mains are too small. So, I think I'll put some extra space behind the current mineral line and rotate the mineral line and move it a bit. And I always have trouble with the middle, but I'll develop it. Going to add a name change poll to OP. Edit: done
As general feedback, and I used to do this too, your resource lines on the left and right expansions are way too close to the edge of the terrain, with no room behind the geysers. As a rule of thumb, use the building grid(ctrl+shift+H) and see if you can fit a spawning pool in 1 or 2 places behind the mineral lines, and at least 1 supply depot between the geyser and the wall.
On September 11 2011 01:51 MisfortuneS Ghost wrote: As general feedback, and I used to do this too, your resource lines on the left and right expansions are way too close to the edge of the terrain, with no room behind the geysers. As a rule of thumb, use the building grid(ctrl+shift+H) and see if you can fit a spawning pool in 1 or 2 places behind the mineral lines, and at least 1 supply depot between the geyser and the wall.
I'm well aware of what to do (See other maps of my creation) about that. It's just a matter of space, which I'll be fixing.
On September 11 2011 09:12 FlaShFTW wrote: this might be in one of those descriptions that you listed, but can tanks reach the nexus//hatch//cc fro m the ridges in the middle to the 3rd?
*facepalm* yes. I somehow manage to do that with literally every map I ever create.
This map is heavily favored toward zerg - not because of it's openness, but because zerg can EASILY grab the gold base as a 3rd expansion while protoss and terran have to turtle on 2-base for a short time. The only way for a protoss or terran player to win on a map like this (with this setup) is to win in the early game. As of right now, this map favors zerg macro by a mile, so I would put the rocks at the gold and open up the blue 3rd.
@IronManSC: Thank you for your feedback. I'm on it, as well as making the blocked thirds not seigable for zerg. The rocks will also be moved to the gold. @SidianTheBard: Could you elaborate a bit on the changes to the corner expansions and the middle? I'm all for making the nats bigger, but I don't see why the fourth/fifth need to be melded (creating a 10 base map).
I have another change for the middle, as I can't do lower ground than what I already have in the middle without raising the entire map up an elevation level, and I'm not doing that because I'm lazy .
Update! Edit: I did not take up most of Sidian's ideas because they didn't seem necessary. If he can explain why they are important/mine are bad then I probably will change them to what he suggests.
I like the new version. The path in the center is cool, it wouldn't be too useful in the early game but it causes the attack paths to be altered based on expansion patterns, it should be pretty dynamic. Overall quite a good map now.
On September 18 2011 05:38 Gfire wrote: I like the new version. The path in the center is cool, it wouldn't be too useful in the early game but it causes the attack paths to be altered based on expansion patterns, it should be pretty dynamic. Overall quite a good map now.
On September 18 2011 13:19 Barrin wrote: Oh wow lol. That was the biggest map improvement I've ever seen. Still needs some refinement, but it's looking good.
Thanks I will also work on the center pathway. Thank you! Edit: Also, you mention refinement being needed. Can you specify a certain area that could use some improvement? Or is it more of an aesthetic thing? etc.
here are my suggestions, if you want to take them: + Show Spoiler +
Misplaced Doodad: fairly obvious.
Add highground ridge: if you're still looking to change up the center path, then maybe you could do somethng like this. It would make the watchtowers a little harder to hold.
Awkward min/gas placement: the gas and minerals are kinda close to the middle of those ramps, which is a little weird and imo will be annoying to defend.
I'm a bit afraid of pylon warpins into the main from the dark concrete highground expos.
I think the main and natural could be readjusted somewhat. I think the nat choke is too small at 9. Both bases could be expanded into the air space quite a bit. This way, you could increase space between the main and the other high ground expo without sacrificing building area inside the bases, and be able to most the expo with the awkward resource placement.
On September 25 2011 01:36 Gfire wrote: I'm a bit afraid of pylon warpins into the main from the dark concrete highground expos.
It's too far for pylon range.
I think the main and natural could be readjusted somewhat. I think the nat choke is too small at 9. Both bases could be expanded into the air space quite a bit. This way, you could increase space between the main and the other high ground expo without sacrificing building area inside the bases, and be able to most the expo with the awkward resource placement.
I agree in principle but I'm not sure it's a big deal. I think the distance is large enough that more than 9 squares could be good for the nat choke so FE isn't obligatory. The lefthand 3rd is so open, it might be nice to have some kind of cover around the left side of the mineral line/geyser.
On September 25 2011 00:45 Namrufus wrote: here are my suggestions, if you want to take them: + Show Spoiler +
Misplaced Doodad: fairly obvious.
Add highground ridge: if you're still looking to change up the center path, then maybe you could do somethng like this. It would make the watchtowers a little harder to hold.
Awkward min/gas placement: the gas and minerals are kinda close to the middle of those ramps, which is a little weird and imo will be annoying to defend.
misplaced doodad: On it! Center: Why is the center bad? Every map has a highground/low ground middle. This map is actually somewhat original in the fact that you can prevent passage through the middle with ranged units like tanks from the watchtower and they can't see you. This makes the third easier to defend. The awkward placement of mineral lines: the third is placed like that to encourage expanding to the fourth base. The fourth base: Whats wrong with gas right next to the ramp?
Edit:
I think the main and natural could be readjusted somewhat. I think the nat choke is too small at 9. Both bases could be expanded into the air space quite a bit. This way, you could increase space between the main and the other high ground expo without sacrificing building area inside the bases, and be able to most the expo with the awkward resource placement.
While testing the map, I had a complaint that forge FE was too hard with 11 squares. I tested it with 11 overpool and almost broke in. I also came ahead economically. So, I reduced the width to 9.
Note to everyone: Please test this map if you are on NA.
On September 25 2011 06:27 Gfire wrote: 9 squares is way smaller than any mainstream map right now afaik. Players FFE on way more open maps and get away with it.
On September 25 2011 06:27 Gfire wrote: 9 squares is way smaller than any mainstream map right now afaik. Players FFE on way more open maps and get away with it.
ok. Should I widen it to 11 squares? 12? More?
I would say it's up to you, use your judgement. The primary metric is how many 3x3 buildings it will take, so 11 and 12 are kind of the same. But 13 is huge! Or you could leave it at 9...
On September 25 2011 06:27 Gfire wrote: 9 squares is way smaller than any mainstream map right now afaik. Players FFE on way more open maps and get away with it.
ok. Should I widen it to 11 squares? 12? More?
I would say it's up to you, use your judgement. The primary metric is how many 3x3 buildings it will take, so 11 and 12 are kind of the same. But 13 is huge! Or you could leave it at 9...
Is there a problem with 9? Because I will change it if it is a problem.
On September 25 2011 00:45 Namrufus wrote: here are my suggestions, if you want to take them: + Show Spoiler +
Misplaced Doodad: fairly obvious.
Add highground ridge: if you're still looking to change up the center path, then maybe you could do somethng like this. It would make the watchtowers a little harder to hold.
Awkward min/gas placement: the gas and minerals are kinda close to the middle of those ramps, which is a little weird and imo will be annoying to defend.
misplaced doodad: On it! Center: Why is the center bad? Every map has a highground/low ground middle. This map is actually somewhat original in the fact that you can prevent passage through the middle with ranged units like tanks from the watchtower and they can't see you. This makes the third easier to defend. The awkward placement of mineral lines: the third is placed like that to encourage expanding to the fourth base. The fourth base: Whats wrong with gas right next to the ramp?
I think the main and natural could be readjusted somewhat. I think the nat choke is too small at 9. Both bases could be expanded into the air space quite a bit. This way, you could increase space between the main and the other high ground expo without sacrificing building area inside the bases, and be able to most the expo with the awkward resource placement.
While testing the map, I had a complaint that forge FE was too hard with 11 squares. I tested it with 11 overpool and almost broke in. I also came ahead economically. So, I reduced the width to 9.
Note to everyone: Please test this map if you are on NA.
Open an image of your map in paint or photoshop. draw some arrows from the main to indicate how you would move your army to attack the other base. the issue is the middle area of your map will probably never see use as players would just run around it to get to where ever.
Open an image of your map in paint or photoshop. draw some arrows from the main to indicate how you would move your army to attack the other base. the issue is the middle area of your map will probably never see use as players would just run around it to get to where ever.
The middle is not supposed to be useful early to mid game, but when you have 5 bases, the middle provides a quicker and easier way to pressure your opponent's bases, traveling from your 5th and 4th bases.
On September 25 2011 02:26 TehTemplar wrote: Center: Why is the center bad? Every map has a highground/low ground middle. This map is actually somewhat original in the fact that you can prevent passage through the middle with ranged units like tanks from the watchtower and they can't see you. This makes the third easier to defend.
It was a suggestion to solve the problem percieved by other posters that the middle path would be unused. the idea behind the suggestion was that it would give players an incentive to control the middle in order to control access to the watchtowers. I didn't mean to say that the middle was "bad" as it is, it seems like you have put a lot of thought into how that area works .
The awkward placement of mineral lines: the third is placed like that to encourage expanding to the fourth base.
if that is intentional, that is really an interesting feature.
The fourth base: Whats wrong with gas right next to the ramp?
it makes the geyser more vulnerable, and with the resources and cc/hatch/nexus so close to the ramp, it might make it annoying to attack or defend there imo.
Bump! I tested this several times over the course of the last few weeks. The middle, I found, is used early-game as the shortest attack path. Edit: The main to main path does not go through the middle and is 150. The nat to nat distance does go through the middle and is 137.
I just played a game on this vs AI. The water looks really wierd and flat to me (using high graphics settings), I'm not sure if this is your intention. It looks as if you have set the the texture roughness and mesh roughness settings to zero or something.
On October 11 2011 10:37 Namrufus wrote: I just played a game on this vs AI. The water looks really wierd and flat to me (using high graphics settings), I'm not sure if this is your intention. It looks as if you have set the the texture roughness and mesh roughness settings to zero or something.
I really like the way you approach mapping "It don't need to be beautiful, it just need to be good". It's the same way that I approach it.
Generally I don't like this map as much as your other work. I don't know, it seems kind of... plain, next to some of the other stuff you've done. I don't like how the watch-towers cover the whole map, how hard the third is to take, and how super duper open the map is. It also seems a bit small... But I'm not sure without analyzer pics ^^
I think you could add a few clumps of doodads / holes / highground to adjust the openness, but this is generally good-looking! The 4/10oclock bases seem kind of extraneous and neutral with no definition / raison d'etre other than filling space. I would push them further towards the edge with some kind of tactical terrain feature so they are more clearly a distant 4th/5th going clockwise, more connected to the island in a possible line of expansion.
Also you might want to add a wider pod on the center walls to make a nice easy overlord spot with some margins.
I really like the way you approach mapping "It don't need to be beautiful, it just need to be good". It's the same way that I approach it.
Ty ^^
Generally I don't like this map as much as your other work. I don't know, it seems kind of... plain, next to some of the other stuff you've done.
The other one was even more boring xD I'll post a really odd map next to counteract the apparent boringness of this map.
I don't like how the watch-towers cover the whole map, how hard the third is to take, and how super duper open the map is. It also seems a bit small... But I'm not sure without analyzer pics ^^
It's quite big actually. I will move the watchtowers closer to the middle probably. A rock can be put into the backdoors into the third to make it easier to defend.
I think you could add a few clumps of doodads / holes / highground to adjust the openness, but this is generally good-looking! The 4/10oclock bases seem kind of extraneous and neutral with no definition / raison d'etre other than filling space. I would push them further towards the edge with some kind of tactical terrain feature so they are more clearly a distant 4th/5th going clockwise, more connected to the island in a possible line of expansion.
Yay a good map :p Tactical terrain feature... Hmmm
Also you might want to add a wider pod on the center walls to make a nice easy overlord spot with some margins.
The problem that I have with the watch-towers is that it's impossible to hold the third with them the way that they are. If you get A SINGLE TANK at the watch-tower, you're hooped, because you can shell to your hearts content. Watch-towers should offer vision, and through that information, but not a significantly insurmountable positional advantage (for terran, as tanks are the only unit that sees farther than they shoot). Notice how hard (read, impossible) it is to take golds on metal, or how hated XNC was because it was really hard to break a terran camping the towers.
In this version of the map, you can use the towers to bunnyhop, as they already overlap significantly, so that really needs to be fixed. And then you have the 'hard to hold third' that's gonna bug alot of people.
The problem that I have with the watch-towers is that it's impossible to hold the third with them the way that they are. If you get A SINGLE TANK at the watch-tower, you're hooped, because you can shell to your hearts content. Watch-towers should offer vision, and through that information, but not a significantly insurmountable positional advantage (for terran, as tanks are the only unit that sees farther than they shoot). Notice how hard (read, impossible) it is to take golds on metal, or how hated XNC was because it was really hard to break a terran camping the towers.
Oh I get it.
In this version of the map, you can use the towers to bunnyhop, as they already overlap significantly, so that really needs to be fixed. And then you have the 'hard to hold third' that's gonna bug alot of people.
You only use 2 terrain levels. Have you thought about making the pathway that is surrounded by walls into a lowground pathway surrounded by cliffs? You could then put ramps under the rocks. The watchtowers are too close to the naturals. You haven't posted the watchtower radius, but it looks like it completely covers all base entrances of a player. Which means two things: The watchtower usually doesn't help you scout early pushes, because it's too late when you see it. If the opponent applies early pressure and takes your watchtower, you're screwed. I would place the two watchtowers in the middle. X coord to the left and right side of the wall in the middle Y coord between the two rocks
I have a request: Could you try to create a map with the aim of being totally standard and generic? 4player 16base rotational symmetry or something like that where one would say this looks like X other maps. Because I think the result would be pretty good.
You only use 2 terrain levels. Have you thought You only use 2 terrain levels. Have you thought about making the pathway that is surrounded by walls into a lowground pathway surrounded by cliffs? You could then put ramps under the rocks.
I'd have to raise the entire map by one cliff level >_>
The watchtower usually doesn't help you scout early pushes, because it's too late when you see it. If the opponent applies early pressure and takes your watchtower, you're screwed. I would place the two watchtowers in the middle. X coord to the left and right side of the wall in the middle
Already considering that.
Y coord between the two rocks
What rocks? There are no rocks on this map.
Could you try to create a map with the aim of being totally standard and generic? 4player 16base rotational symmetry or something like that where one would say this looks like X other maps. Because I think the result would be pretty good.
It would have to wait until the weekend, as I don't have time to make a whole 'nother map until then.
EPT
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