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On July 10 2011 23:18 Archvil3 wrote:
I personally think 4 maps were uncontested the 4 best maps: Green Harvest, Antiga Prime,Core Delta and Odyssey.
To me the 5th spot were between LoS_Novaria, Ignition Point, Monsoon Valley and Razed, I wasnt sure which one I would choose but I think either of those could have made it and I really really doubt it have been due to any kind of bias that it was Monsoon Valley that was chosen.
lol, wow. I just looked at the maps and thought hm I would have picked the same final 5... maybe not Monsoon Valley and instead Razed, Ignotion Point or LoS_Novaria but I think Monsoon Valley was the most interesting...
Very cool to see how much we all agree about maps now 
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TPW Judicator Caste
Balance: 7.3
Aesthetics: 7.0
Intangibles: 7.7
Average: 7.3
that was a close call i guess^^...but i can live with that
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TPW Antiga Prime
Balance: 6.8
Aesthetics: 7.1
Intangibles: 7.7
Average: 7.2
I must've been chosen last >.>
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Heh I got 6.5 for mine, highest point for aesthetics, 7.0.
I've gotta try harder!
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7.4 LoS_Novaria 7.3 7.8 7.2
6.3 LoS Desolation 5.9 6.5 6.7
I got a better average than Antiga prime for Novaria and Antiga was chosen for finalist.
Could I know why?
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On July 11 2011 00:09 Icetoad wrote:
7.4 LoS_Novaria 7.3 7.8 7.2
6.3 LoS Desolation 5.9 6.5 6.7
I got a better average than Antiga prime for Novaria and Antiga was chosen for finalist.
Could I know why?
Yes kinda , also i dont think that you should take the ratings seriusly.
Antiga Prime and Odyssey are just TPW promoting bs while clearing being far from finals material.
I also wont give my top 5 but clearly those 2 dont belong in top 5 about Green Harvest im not to sure maybe close for 5th but also not sure if in .
Weird orginisation to good that im no professional mapmaker woulda have thought now that this contest is full of persons that dont know what realy mattters for a map.
I also think no one realy understands How the gameplay could be on some of the maps.
They are just not experienced players and thus create without wrong basics not okish stuff ,
that is ment to this TPW thingy same for Sc2 ICCUP both have just 1-2 strong points in some catergories but the overall is missing.
Even if BW map making is simpler it clearly overpowered atleast laddder maps.
looking in this thread and top 5 wont contest even ladder maps except for 2.
Also this is no directly hate / frustration response i am kinda viewing this whole thing rational as a proffessional player.
I realy like that how IGrok supports this whole project but what is missing is people with understanding.
So far.. take this as criticism and try to overcome your overall heavily missing ingame knowledge in highlevel . Otherwhise this whole project will be just a funny little contest every month without any affect on the ladder.
Thanks for bringing this opertunity up to allow my wall o text flatter behind ur little sting.
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*Weird orginisation to good that im no professional mapmaker woulda have thought now that this contest is full of persons that dont know what realy mattters for a map.*
What the hell dude....i wont argue here because ur are clearly wrong. gonna end in a flamewars if i would
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Points don't say anything. Points just help the jury to get a pool of ~15 maps and out of those they pick the 5 maps which most likely will lead to cool games in the tourney. And you know that f.e. LSPrime is within the jury.
And tell us your top 5 and stop that TPW rant.
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@Serashin are you a pro player?
I agree that you shouldnt take the ratings too seriously - there is obviously more thought and discussion among the judges that desices the top 5 other than score.
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Maybe you guys shouldn't lable your maps with TPW next time to make it less obvious 
And yes, I'm gonna take the #5 maps down, haven't done it so far because I didn't need the slots yet (20 slots now crazyyyyyy).
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On July 11 2011 00:31 Serashin wrote:
So far.. take this as criticism and try to overcome your overall heavily missing ingame knowledge in highlevel . Otherwhise this whole project will be just a funny little contest every month without any affect on the ladder.
First of all, if you think MotM wants to promote TPW then you are full of shit imo. I guess they don't really want to pick 5 TPW maps, those maps just so happened to be the best...
I think it's really a shame that no high level player is involved in judging, I don't know how much effort goes into finding pros willing to share their opinion about maps but it would definitely be better if there were more pros doing that. Part of the problem imo is that the MotM tournament is only in NA, when NA clearly has the least amount of high level players. On EU or KR we would probably see a lot more high level players attending, making the quality of the tournament and the feedback better.
Btw did you ever try to contact TLO for judging maps? I mean he was random for quite some time and since he is full time pro but can't play cause of his carpal tunnel I bet he could be willing to do something for the map community?!
Anyway, this month motherfucking LSPrime was judging maps and you talk about lack of knowledge....
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[edit] Ha, some vociferous defense above me. We should take the discussion seriously, even if it started in emotional reaction, if only to meditate on how to be as excellent as possible. [/edit]
The scores are just a quick rubric to sort out top contenders and maps that can be set aside from consideration--judge staff have explained this before. The average score is sort of a "first impression" score.
MotM definitely has a certain style that it promotes, but that is the synthesis of the inputs of everyone here in the map forums and the personal thoughts of 5 judges, a body of demonstrably strong mappers whose membership is always in flux. It's hard to say they have an agenda. TPW swept the finals because they all had aesthetically polished maps with superb proportions and a measure of originality.
That said, the judges tend to value certain aspects (and you can count on this if you are aiming to get your map picked). The TPW guys all gravitate toward a similar mapping paradigm to the MotM judging values, which is perfectly sensible since those two groups are constantly in conversation here.
In principle I completely agree that MotM will always be short of perfection because we don't have grandmaster players to test or share ideas. Isn't that true of any map making effort, though?? And in any case, while top players can give good feedback about the current game, I believe that the strong mapmakers exhibit a forward-thinking insight that outstrips the progress in play of the game. If you let tournament players make maps, you would stagnate very quickly. Mappers see beyond current trends into the world of possibility, and the fruit of the art is the result of complex judgements of which we cannot be fully conscious, and the final quality of which we cannot appreciate for years, maybe even ever.
In this way, mapping is a tragic art because the craft by its nature will never be fully experienced. This is acutely true for maps that never get picked for use in a community event and fall into the dust bin of history. Everyone who makes maps shares this pain. The beauty is that, with efforts like this event, there's always next month. =)
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I hate to attack ones credibility as an argument and I really want to avoid that we flame each others maps here, but really Serashin, when I look at your contribution this month I really dont think you are in a position to judge anyones maps.
I don't think that MOTM would be biased towards certain map makers, but of course it could be possible that they prefer certain styles. Everyone has their own preferences and of course they judge based on what they feel is right. That is why it is so great that we have a team of judges and not just 1 person. Now that LS is a judge we see it from a whole new perspective as well. Brining in more judges would broaden the perspectives but I don't see how it could influence the results this month. The winners all deserved it and while maybe 2-3 maps that didnt make it could possibly have made it, it is really hard to choose just 5 when you have 7-8 maps that are of that quality.
I like the idea of bringing in a pro judge though. The first name that comes to mind is Morrow. He has made maps himself and been involved with map making community with interviews and opinions before so I am thinking he would be interested if it could fit in his schedule to be a guestjudge. Make it happen iGrok!
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i agree that having an actual pro player in the jury would be great, not just for picking the best maps, but also for getting valuable feedback and some publicity of course
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I personally like Antiga Prime the best out of all the maps submitted, but I'm a scrubby player so that doesn't mean much.
Having one or two high level players look over these maps could definitely be a boon to the selection process. I'm sure Pokebunny, MrBitter, maybe even Morrow would be willing to help.
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OK, without any frustration (as it was pretty clear that my map would not be top5  ), here are my top5 (note that I clearly didn't spend as much time on thinking about those than the jury did...):
-) Broceliande
+ Show Spoiler +due to alphabetical order I'm starting with the last map I chose for my top 5 great aesthetics, and I like how the long rush distance and the far away 3rd base interact with the possibility to take the gold as your third, if you are playing as T/P vs Z. The goldbase might need some rocks and the natural should be a little bit narrowed to make it easier for Protoss in PvZ. Else: definatly better than half of the ladder maps.
-) Los_Novaria
+ Show Spoiler +said it on page2: this map was one of my biggest favorites; really nice looks and for me it looks like an improved Xel'Naga Caverns. Better third, better 4th, similar gold base
-) TPW Antiga Prime
+ Show Spoiler +good looks, good map. Maybe a little bit hard for zergs once the narrow paths get blocked by expansions. But all in all, looks really nice.
-) TPW Core Delta
+ Show Spoiler +good looks if you like that kind of style (which I'm not extremly sure of). I really like the natural. Like shakuras plateau but with the rock backdoor, which makes PvZ forge expands a little harder, because you need an extra pylon and canon (as shakuras is a great map, but the PvZ statistical balance is a little bit off currently), could use a second XNW, but all in all, really nice
-) TPW Razed
+ Show Spoiler +that's maybe because it is based around the same basic layout idea as my latest map (Siege Canyon) and I think it could result in a lot of great games with the big lowground path in the middle and the smaller highground pathes around. also the aesthetics are really good imo
all-in-all summary: great maps, hard to really choose 5! Only real critizism: I think the mapmakers should try more experimental stuff and less of "1-2-3 bases + a gold + a place to siege + a place to overrun + a rock": I know that lots of maps are/were imba because of new stuff, but some of the things they used were rebalanced and used in other great maps (backdoor expension in jungle basin --> Crevasse; "low ground mainbase" on Kulas Ravine --> Tel'darim Altar, Bel'shir Beach) and others that didn't lead to imbalance are still exclusive features of those maps (double wide ramp on Scrap Station, Mineral Rocks on Testbug, Watchtower Rocks on Testbug).
So I really think that those great mapmakers (like from LoS and from TPW) should be able to figure out something new and exciting, that is balanced (on the map were they use it).
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Wow, just woke up and things got heated i guess?. Congrats to the winners, I think you guys did deserve it. I knew my map had about zero chance this month with all of the great maps submitted. I feel like the only solution is for every mapper to delete the galaxy editor for next year and play until everyone is in grandmaster. On a serious note I think that, while probably unintended, the formation of more mapping teams is kinda fracturing the TL mapping forum a bit. Also instead of seeking pro players as judges it might be more reasonable to ask some non-pro but still really high level players to judge. Pro players would be sweet to have as judges but realistically I find it unlikely any would be willing to take 5-6 days off to judge an amateur mapping contest. I don't see why even players in masters league wouldn't be able to properly judge if a map is balanced or looks good. I have no problem with the current judging, they seemed pretty fair. Logically if all the best mappers on TL make a team then it follows that that team's maps would win. If you got 5 willing masters or higher players to judge I think it might be a bit more fair in other people's eyes. I mean it is guaranteed TPW judge next month, who will be judging TPW maps, which will probably win. Just to reiterate, I do think the winners this month deserved it. But unless something changes this will probably become the TPW in-house map competition in a few months.
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what a fucking joke if you arent going to use the scores than why even bother with that
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Gz to all the winners
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
On July 11 2011 02:22 WniO wrote:
what a fucking joke if you arent going to use the scores than why even bother with that
So you never ever understood the system?
Scores are just an indication. All judges discuss the top 15 (chosen b the score) to choose a top 5. Sometimes a judges just missed a small imbalance / design flaw / ... but a other judge caught this one and a map which was maybe at spot 4 in scores drops out.
Still it would be awesome that the winner of the last motm tourney (the player not the winning mapper) gets the judge spot.
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EPT
