There is an aesthetic update en route. I'll finish it at the latest by July 8th. I'm planning on cleaning up textures and making the cliffs actually have doodads that look more pleasing.
Modified Monlyth Title Set -Monlyth Bricks -Typhon Stone Tiles -Zhakul'Das Bricks -Xil Sand Cracked -Monlyth Cracked -Xil Sand -Monlyth White Sand -Xil Dirt Rocky
Playable Size: 110 x 132 Max Players: 2 Servers: NA
For this map I decided to use a custom title set. The last time I used one the mini-map was all black throughout the entire game, so I hope this one doesn't have the same problem (I haven't checked yet). I owe a lot of credit for the texture idea to Barrin for this thread.
The design is unique and centers around the three paths between the sides of the map. These paths can be used for flanking and counter-attacks to a great extent. The paths can merge together by destroying the large destructible rocks there. The center path has the largest choke, a 4x ramp, and the other two have a choke of 2x at the exit (natural) and 3x at the entrance (enemy fifth). It adds a lot of mobility in later game. The towers overlook the center path and each one overlooks one of the side paths respectively. The natural has a backdoor the size of one ramp that leads into the intended third and can be walled with a Pylon and a Gateway, or the equivalent of those buildings. I might change it to just a 3x choke, so it can be walled with just a Gateway, but I'm not sure how I feel about that yet.
looks extremly cool, but I have some concerns, because I don't see Zerg winning a battle on this map with those narrow paths + the ramp behind the gold minerals seems a little odd.
Ok, thanks for voicing your concerns. The golds will be changed (I don't know what to do with them at the moment), and the fourth will be moved further away from the center of the map (I'm going to increase the bounds a little to do this) and the towers will be removed to make the map less choked. Besides, they reveal too much.
I could just remove the gold expansions entirely, I think that would work best. There already are twelve bases, ten is fine. Pus it will add flanking areas.
I see the 5th base as a problem. Naturally you will take the one that's in the same direction as you're already expanding (for 12 o'clock spawn that would be the 5 o'clock base), also noone will late you take your expo next to their 4th that is right next to it on low ground. However if you now take the 5 o'clock base you'll have to defend 3 chokes that are veeeeery far apart. Without any towers your enemy can just freely move up and down in the middle and attack you at the weakest choke and you won't be ready for it.
On May 02 2011 00:10 FlopTurnReaver wrote: I see the 5th base as a problem. Naturally you will take the one that's in the same direction as you're already expanding (for 12 o'clock spawn that would be the 5 o'clock base), also noone will late you take your expo next to their 4th that is right next to it on low ground. However if you now take the 5 o'clock base you'll have to defend 3 chokes that are veeeeery far apart. Without any towers your enemy can just freely move up and down in the middle and attack you at the weakest choke and you won't be ready for it.
//thinks really hard//
Ok, I'm going to increase map bounds to make sure that towers are not OP, I can see that they are a necessity if I open up the gold path. I want the towers to cover only the center path and not the other gold paths. They will be able to see units coming down from the exit of the gold path, they'll just have less time to deal with it though. Hmm... I think I can decrease the middle ramps to 2x, so that all of the chokes that you have to cover are the same size, but far apart. Hmm...
Wow that middle is really cool. I love the creativity. Probably you're coolest map yet.
Right now I think the main issue is lack of open space. A lot of the expansions here, particularly the 3rd and 4th, are really choked off. Battles are really awkward without some open ground, and its easy to exploit choke points. The middle is pretty open, but there isn't a reason to put your army there since its low ground and choked on the sides.
The middle gold expansions seem really hard to hold, since the opponent is right next to yours. I think you could probably switch the side that they are on, and maybe open them up a bit. [edit] Before you change this, try to decide how each player will expand. Then make sure its possible without being too close to the opponent.
As a solution to the open space, I think the sides should be remade. You could probably increase the map bounds, and try to give more open space. I think the 3rd should stay lowground, but the wide ramp should be closer to the natural. Then I would rework the 4th and 5th side expos to allow more open space, but keep the nice flow you have here.
On May 02 2011 08:16 monitor wrote: Wow that middle is really cool. I love the creativity. Probably you're coolest map yet.
Right now I think the main issue is lack of open space. A lot of the expansions here, particularly the 3rd and 4th, are really choked off. Battles are really awkward without some open ground, and its easy to exploit choke points. The middle is pretty open, but there isn't a reason to put your army there since its low ground and choked on the sides.
The middle gold expansions seem really hard to hold, since the opponent is right next to yours. I think you could probably switch the side that they are on, and maybe open them up a bit. [edit] Before you change this, try to decide how each player will expand. Then make sure its possible without being too close to the opponent.
As a solution to the open space, I think the sides should be remade. You could probably increase the map bounds, and try to give more open space. I think the 3rd should stay lowground, but the wide ramp should be closer to the natural. Then I would rework the 4th and 5th side expos to allow more open space, but keep the nice flow you have here.
Thanks for your feedback, I just finished another version and didn't see this, sorry!
The new image is in the topic.
-Map size increased from 108 x 124 to 110 x 132. -Changed the fourths. -Removed the golds. -Increased the size of the mains. -Added LoSBs in the main (i.e. Metalopolis). -Increased the size of the middle. -Lowered the fifths. -Other minor stuff...
Feedback is still needed so that I can make this better!
I love the look of this map. I also like the layout, Though I would remove the rox from the middle, It seperates the map too much for the early game, and they probably wont be there in the late game. The XWT's cover so much ground anyway so limiting movement with the rox I think would ruin the flow/freedom of movement.
I'm also a little worried about FF's from P being OP in the narrow areas, coz it looks like there is alot of narrow areas. Maybe get it play tested in some Protoss matches, and see how much it gets abused.
Looks like a great map. Honestly I can't think of any balance suggestions to improve the map, it seems very solid. I hope it can get used in some kind of iccup event!
On May 02 2011 09:54 Archivian wrote: I love the look of this map. I also like the layout, Though I would remove the rox from the middle, It seperates the map too much for the early game, and they probably wont be there in the late game. The XWT's cover so much ground anyway so limiting movement with the rox I think would ruin the flow/freedom of movement.
I'm also a little worried about FF's from P being OP in the narrow areas, coz it looks like there is alot of narrow areas. Maybe get it play tested in some Protoss matches, and see how much it gets abused.
I disagree about the rocks in the middle. If they are not there, counter-attacks and some flanking can go unpunished. With the rocks there, it forces the player doing the counter-attack to commit to a route. Without the rocks they can easily traverse back to where they need to be if they get counter-attacked. The towers do not cover as much area as it looks. They cover the fourth and that's about it. You cannot see anywhere into the middle except for the top of the ramp, or anywhere into the third.
FFs could definitely be a problem; I'm still running tests
Thanks for your feedback!
On May 02 2011 10:15 Whiplash wrote: Looks like a great map. Honestly I can't think of any balance suggestions to improve the map, it seems very solid. I hope it can get used in some kind of iccup event!
That would be awesome! I think they only show games on their maps though. I'm glad you like it!
I put this on the MotM thread, but I figure I'd put it here too:
1) make main ramp normal, 1x wide (instead of the 2x it looks like now). Its just a kick in the balls to terran and protoss, because of the 6 pool. It doesn't really prevent turtling either, just is easy to baneling bust.
2) Open up the path from the 4th to 5th, and probably add another ramp down (to make it harder to turtle) That path is really small, and pretty easy to abuse. Making it wider would balance ZvP/ZvT, and adding a ramp would reduce turtling on the sides.
3) Move the XelNaga towers so they don't favor turtling (maybe no towers?). Right now taking it makes it easier to hold the 4th, which will increase turtling. I suggest either removing the towers, and making it a tower-less map, or you could put one in the center. That would allow more aggression, but it could mess up the flow too.
4) Add a ton of doodads. Everywhere. Try some ground decals, put some doodads against cliffs, and find some trees/foliage that fit. The textures are really nice right now, but its lacking the small details I think. The middle textures are actually a bit bland, you should add some different textures there.
On May 02 2011 13:36 monitor wrote: I put this on the MotM thread, but I figure I'd put it here too:
1) make main ramp normal, 1x wide (instead of the 2x it looks like now). Its just a kick in the balls to terran and protoss, because of the 6 pool. It doesn't really prevent turtling either, just is easy to baneling bust.
2) Open up the path from the 4th to 5th, and probably add another ramp down (to make it harder to turtle) That path is really small, and pretty easy to abuse. Making it wider would balance ZvP/ZvT, and adding a ramp would reduce turtling on the sides.
3) Move the XelNaga towers so they don't favor turtling (maybe no towers?). Right now taking it makes it easier to hold the 4th, which will increase turtling. I suggest either removing the towers, and making it a tower-less map, or you could put one in the center. That would allow more aggression, but it could mess up the flow too.
4) Add a ton of doodads. Everywhere. Try some ground decals, put some doodads against cliffs, and find some trees/foliage that fit. The textures are really nice right now, but its lacking the small details I think. The middle textures are actually a bit bland, you should add some different textures there.
Main ramp is 1x.
I'll open up that path, just gotta do some sim city with the fourth expansion.
I was thinking putting them in the center in the losbs. Thoughts?
On May 02 2011 13:36 monitor wrote: I put this on the MotM thread, but I figure I'd put it here too:
1) make main ramp normal, 1x wide (instead of the 2x it looks like now). Its just a kick in the balls to terran and protoss, because of the 6 pool. It doesn't really prevent turtling either, just is easy to baneling bust.
2) Open up the path from the 4th to 5th, and probably add another ramp down (to make it harder to turtle) That path is really small, and pretty easy to abuse. Making it wider would balance ZvP/ZvT, and adding a ramp would reduce turtling on the sides.
3) Move the XelNaga towers so they don't favor turtling (maybe no towers?). Right now taking it makes it easier to hold the 4th, which will increase turtling. I suggest either removing the towers, and making it a tower-less map, or you could put one in the center. That would allow more aggression, but it could mess up the flow too.
4) Add a ton of doodads. Everywhere. Try some ground decals, put some doodads against cliffs, and find some trees/foliage that fit. The textures are really nice right now, but its lacking the small details I think. The middle textures are actually a bit bland, you should add some different textures there.
Main ramp is 1x.
I'll open up that path, just gotta do some sim city with the fourth expansion.
I was thinking putting them in the center in the losbs. Thoughts?
Doodads. Everywhere. Got it!
Ah, okay, couldn't tell. Cool beans :p
Yeah, I think just make the level 0 lowground choke a bit smaller.
I think Xel'Naga Towers would be okay in the middle, but they might be a bit too close. Not really sure about this one. I'd probably go no towers.
Lol yes, Doodads. Everywhere. It sounds stupid, but can look pretty cool in-game.
I dislike how the Xelnaga's in the top right and bottom left cover almost all attack routes towards FOUR bases, this seems a little too turtle friendly... I might be wrong, but it seems like a Terran mech army or even a Protoss deathball could simply set up shop near the Xelnagas and cover most attack routes. Maybe move the Xelnaga to the center instead? That way its a much more exposed position but also more useful offensively.
EDIT: not to sound too negative, the rest of the map is really nice I like how you include several paths with nice expansions on either side, it reminds me of Matchpoint from Brood War.
I have a question about the XNW too: how far do they see towards the third bases? Are they actually able to see at least the close to them gas? Im just concerned that due to hatches spreading creep it might be that you can see creep there, so this way you would know that a zerg base is down there, while you cannot see a P or T base if you cannot see the vespene (better would be a mineral, best the CC,Nexus,hatch itself, or not even the fully spread creep of a hatchery) but the map looks really nice right now! I love the new 5th (non gold) bases, they look like they are hard to hold and you might consider to take your opponents 5th instead of you're own, which could be interesting in the lategame (especially in the siegeline-MUs TvT and TvZ)
On May 03 2011 15:27 YoureFired wrote: I dislike how the Xelnaga's in the top right and bottom left cover almost all attack routes towards FOUR bases, this seems a little too turtle friendly... I might be wrong, but it seems like a Terran mech army or even a Protoss deathball could simply set up shop near the Xelnagas and cover most attack routes. Maybe move the Xelnaga to the center instead? That way its a much more exposed position but also more useful offensively.
EDIT: not to sound too negative, the rest of the map is really nice I like how you include several paths with nice expansions on either side, it reminds me of Matchpoint from Brood War.
During test games, a Protoss player that was going for some sort of 4gate build would put a proxy outside the tower nearest your base, which is really hard to break out of, one of the reasons that I'm going to move them somewhere else.
On May 03 2011 16:46 Big J wrote: I have a question about the XNW too: how far do they see towards the third bases? Are they actually able to see at least the close to them gas? Im just concerned that due to hatches spreading creep it might be that you can see creep there, so this way you would know that a zerg base is down there, while you cannot see a P or T base if you cannot see the vespene (better would be a mineral, best the CC,Nexus,hatch itself, or not even the fully spread creep of a hatchery) but the map looks really nice right now! I love the new 5th (non gold) bases, they look like they are hard to hold and you might consider to take your opponents 5th instead of you're own, which could be interesting in the lategame (especially in the siegeline-MUs TvT and TvZ)
The towers see down the ramp of the third barely and no where else into the third. They cannot see the gas, though they probably will be able to see creep spread.
Changing the map's layout created the option to expand to that if you wanted to as an alternate third, or even alternate fourth, but if I move the towers, they might be revealed.
New version is up on Battle.net based on a few things suggested by monitor. The image is in the topic, along with the previous version's image.
-Larger mains. -Moved towers: towers now cover the center path and one outside path, and are relatively close to each other, yet cannot see each other and their sight overlaps barely in the center region. -More space in the fourths. -Increased the width of the fourth-fifth choke. -Removed some, but not all, LoSBs by the fourth. -Increased the LoSB area at the fifths. -Filled in the holes by the fifths and removed the LoSBs there. -Removed the LoSBs underneath the 6x6 destructible rocks. -Removed the drop zone in the main. -The mains can now by cliff-walked from the side paths, making Reapers a possible build on this map. This also increases the areas where Siege Tanks can cliff the main. -Doodads. Lots and lots of doodads.
Wow, thats pretty impressive. By far your best map! I like it a lot now.
Do you know if the main can be sieged from the lowground expo? If so, you should probably move the minerals a bit to prevent it.
Nice job on the doodads, it gives it a nice character. Not sure about so many of the decals, but its your choice. I think the man-made sections could use a bit more detail. Here is a mock-up image I did, just to give you an idea:
Wow, thats pretty impressive. By far your best map! I like it a lot now.
Do you know if the main can be sieged from the lowground expo? If so, you should probably move the minerals a bit to prevent it.
Nice job on the doodads, it gives it a nice character. Not sure about so many of the decals, but its your choice. I think the man-made sections could use a bit more detail. Here is a mock-up image I did, just to give you an idea:
WTF now I feel inferior...
What doodads did you use? I think I know about the bridge, crashed Phoenixes, and the supply crates, but where did you get the rubble on the ground by the minerals and those pipes? Those are cool! Also what is that center Protoss pad thingy?
I don't know if the main can be sieged from there, I'm going to have to check, I'll fix that soon though.
EDIT: I'm going online now to host some games on the current version btw.
EDIT 2: I wanted to go for more of a Xel'naga/Protoss look than a Terran/human look.
Wow, thats pretty impressive. By far your best map! I like it a lot now.
Do you know if the main can be sieged from the lowground expo? If so, you should probably move the minerals a bit to prevent it.
Nice job on the doodads, it gives it a nice character. Not sure about so many of the decals, but its your choice. I think the man-made sections could use a bit more detail. Here is a mock-up image I did, just to give you an idea:
WTF now I feel inferior...
What doodads did you use? I think I know about the bridge, crashed Phoenixes, and the supply crates, but where did you get the rubble on the ground by the minerals and those pipes? Those are cool! Also what is that center Protoss pad thingy?
I don't know if the main can be sieged from there, I'm going to have to check, I'll fix that soon though.
EDIT: I'm going online now to host some games on the current version btw.
Just look through the doodads! Heh, it's not hard to place. Just have to find what looks nice, and then put masses of stuff (but make sure it fits with the theme).
On May 04 2011 09:34 SidianTheBard wrote: Here's a picture of some ideas for you to think about. =) + Show Spoiler +
Good ideas here. I agree that you should probably make the natural choke a bit tighter. Also the middle would be nice to be more open, maybe put 2 rocks in a row and make the choke bigger?
Ok. I'm not going to make the choke as tight as it is in the image, that's too tight, but I will make it tighter. I forgot to re add those losbs outside the third and will add them tomorrow. I'll make it two rocks in the mid
On May 07 2011 06:09 Antares777 wrote: Too lazy for a change log...
Too lazy for a proper comment :p Go 4 it and submit ^^
Fine.
Change Log: -Natural choke is now 9 units wide, smaller than before. -The fourth is slightly larger because the high ground area was shrunk. -The high ground area mentioned above is now pathable. -The 6x6 rocks have been replaced with rocks that are much larger so that the choke could be widened. -I got rid of the fire. There's still some there, but as much. -Doodads. -Changed the main's mineral line so that the geysers and workers cannot be sieged from the fifths.
I sent the file last night, and hope that this will make it to the final five!
@Gara - I'm glad that you like the texturing and aesthetics, I have put a lot of time in just thinking about what I wanted the map to look like
@Sidian - Haha yeah the flow is a little awkward when you get your fifth expansion. The fifth expansion can be either yours or your opponents, which I always thought was a little interesting. Your idea for a fifth isn't a bad idea either. So far in test games no one has gotten a fifth base up, but expect changes if I feel they are necessary. One downfall of having an expansion there would be that Terran would be able to lock down that path with Siege Tanks, which I am not in favor of.
...and I was going to say something else but I somehow forgot...
EDIT: Remembered. Anyone willing to help me get analyzer pictures for this map? I only need openness, summary, main to main distances, and nat to nat distances.
Well done on MotM final 5. I had a strong feeling this map would make, I thought this map was aesthetically awesome from the start, and obviously it must play as well as it looks.
So I loaded this up to play a couple solitaires against the AI, and I am very impressed. I would love to get a real game on it. This is easily your best work yet. The flow is amazing. I am quite taken with all the little areas around the map available for the player to rearrange a fight in their favour, like the LosB L-walls.
Your attention to detail in the aesthetics really shows and the style is original but cohesive. I had my doubts about the CC boxes with the flashing lines but those are actually pretty sweet. ;D
My next offline practice games are gonna be on this map, it seems awesome! Do I just type in Hysteria to get this on the custom map search? I'm on the EU server by the way.
New version out! There's been a lot of aesthetic changes, so I'm just going to list the gameplay ones:
-Fifth expansion is now a gold. This should influence people to actually get a fifth expansion up and may even influence unusual expansion patterns, which should increase spectator value. -Fifth expansion can now no longer be sieged from the adjacent main. -The mineral line of the main has been moved slightly to make the space less awkward and allow for more building room. -The cliff outside of the natural in the middle is pathable and buildable. The other cliff is still unpathable and is marked by the glowing lines and other doodads.
I like that now every cliff level has it's own texturing. At least makes looking at the overview a lot easier^^ And those golds make sense. Still an awesome map
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/X7VQU.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nxuXY.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wkMvc.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PwcLO.jpg)
I like how you include several paths with nice expansions on either side, it reminds me of Matchpoint from Brood War.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qUjG3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/DWfYv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HvwTD.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pXnUA.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RT4UC.jpg)
