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No Deathballs - Xel Naga - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Denis Lachance
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada162 Posts
March 08 2011 12:04 GMT
#21
This is awesome! This is one of the long-running problems I've always had with SC2. I told myself since release: This cant possibly stay this way.. they're going to have to change the pathing...

It seems it wasn't an issue within blizzard, which is a big mistake on their part IMO.


What you did seems pretty darn good.
Eppur si muove
aka_star
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United Kingdom1546 Posts
March 08 2011 12:05 GMT
#22
I have high hopes for this, keep up the good work dood. I'm gonna try it out later today. Sounds like an awesome idea, my only query going in would be how well ramp blocking is going to be.
FlashDave.999 aka Star
Pulzlulz
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany412 Posts
March 08 2011 12:12 GMT
#23
On March 08 2011 21:05 aka_star wrote:
I have high hopes for this, keep up the good work dood. I'm gonna try it out later today. Sounds like an awesome idea, my only query going in would be how well ramp blocking is going to be.

That would add a huge factor to the defender's advantage so it's a step in the right direction. Keep up the work!
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
March 08 2011 12:26 GMT
#24
Reminds me of BW so much. I think that this type of change would require extensive rebalancing, but would eventually be productive.
White-Ra fighting!
Jetaap
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France4814 Posts
March 08 2011 12:44 GMT
#25
I really can't wait to see it in EU , you need to find someone to publish it for you !
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
March 08 2011 12:48 GMT
#26
This looks like a brilliant way of jury-rigging and improving the game engine to produce the BW-esque gameplay we all love. The deathball mechanic does seem to be quite detrimental to the current state of the SC2 metagame, and it will be difficult to address game balance with its existence.

Unfortunately, I think the "ball" formation mechanic is an offshoot of the improved pathfinding that Blizzard attempted to implement into SC2. IMO, the pathfinding AI and unit control in SC2 feels much more comfortable and fluid compared to BW or any other recent RTS. As someone said previously in the thread, increasing collision size might have detrimental effects on the unit pathing, especially through chokes.

It's interesting to see that early in SC2's development, a lot of the early preview screenshots did not show too many symptoms of the dreaded deathball. This mod's screenshots replicate those early images, and in a good way.

Nevertheless, I'm just really worried about the problems that this may cause to unit pathing. I've already suffered enough with trying to micro retarded Dragoons and Goliaths in BW.

Also, have you tried contacting Maverick for possibly implementing this into the SC2BW mod? It seems like it would be a good option to have there.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
Denis Lachance
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada162 Posts
March 08 2011 17:02 GMT
#27
Unfortunately, I think the "ball" formation mechanic is an offshoot of the improved pathfinding that Blizzard attempted to implement into SC2. IMO, the pathfinding AI and unit control in SC2 feels much more comfortable and fluid compared to BW or any other recent RTS. As someone said previously in the thread, increasing collision size might have detrimental effects on the unit pathing, especially through chokes.


With this in mind, it is always possible to fix the problematic ''death ball'' directly through the pathing algorythms­. For example, in SCBW it was impossible to make 2 units in the same selection touch eachother. It just could not be done. If you told both units to move to a point precisely in between, they would always leave a space.

I haven't done any extensive research in the matter, but I do believe there are more of these types of specific rules all throughout the BW pathings. I myself believe that SC2 would benefit greatly from having a more breathe-friendly pathing system, similar to the one described in OP and in SCBW.

It would probably unbalance the game, which would be subject to further balancing, but in the long run it can only be good for the game as a whole. It's funner to watch, and it's easier to visualise exactly what's happening to a more realistic setting.

If you see 5 stalkers fighting 2 siege tanks, with adequate distance in between, you can easily visualise from the game what that must look like in person.

However, if you see a giant deathball of stalker/colossus fighting a giant ball of thor/siegetank (Not that this would ever happen but for thoughtcrafting purposes only) it's difficult to really see how that is...

The thor pathing in perticular is quite unfriendly to visual extrapolation. If you have 10 thors in a ball fighting it just makes no sense.. each one has it's face hugging another thor's backside.

In this map, this is greatly remedied.. Though this solution is not perfect, it is definitely a huge eye-relief.
I
Eppur si muove
febreze
Profile Joined April 2010
167 Posts
March 08 2011 18:04 GMT
#28
Intriguing concept!

Good luck on the pro mod, I'll try this map out once I'm in game. I also wish there was a search function in joining games as there is in creating them.
Beauty in truth, deception with dogma, meaning through life.
Shiladie
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1631 Posts
March 08 2011 18:35 GMT
#29
Definitely a good map concept, My opinion is that deathballs are the number one thing wrong with the game right now, making it inferior both to play and to watch vs BW. I don't think blizz will take action to fix this unfortunately, but this map looks like an interesting solution to it.
Sirion
Profile Joined August 2010
131 Posts
March 08 2011 18:56 GMT
#30
Nice idea, to bad I cannot test it out on EU. While I am not convinced that this improves the game, I am very curious as to the different feel in game play.
orotoss
Profile Joined September 2010
United States298 Posts
March 08 2011 18:58 GMT
#31
Really cool idea. I'm wondering if you might want to balance units specifically for this variant, considering that the game has already been balanced around clumping. Playing this way would strongly discourage banelings, hellions, fungal growth, storm, siege tanks, and colossi. There would have to be a way to give those units/spells a role in this variant.
BLARRGHGHH
laLAlA[uC]
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada963 Posts
March 08 2011 19:04 GMT
#32
Omg I'm excited (:
Now if only we could combine this with the Obs version... d:
I'm an old man now
Hilberer
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden64 Posts
March 08 2011 19:04 GMT
#33
Marines would be imba cause banelings/colosses wont hit much
Cryosin
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States182 Posts
March 08 2011 21:40 GMT
#34
On March 08 2011 20:52 Saracen wrote:
Wow, that actually looks much nicer than the current SC2 unit sizes. You can actually see individual units like in BW. Just to be clear, it looks like the units stayed the same size, but they don't clump as much. Is that right?


Essentially, yes.

Map will be on EU by tonight(or tomorrow) thank you Woozie.

As for the Ramp situation:

Similar to SC1, it is very easy to block a ramp. You will have to actually move units out of the way if you want all of your units to move up a ramp.
Tarot
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada440 Posts
March 08 2011 22:17 GMT
#35
These changes are great and they really should get considered by Blizzard.
I always thought it looked so bad when large units started fumbling around and clipping through each other.
febreze
Profile Joined April 2010
167 Posts
March 09 2011 07:14 GMT
#36
I just played a game on your map, and zerg seems OP. Terran MM gets stuck a lot by mass speedlings or BL. Basically zerglings can now hold their own since collision walls are created in engagements which favours swarmy playstyles.

Marines could do well with smaller collision sizes.
Beauty in truth, deception with dogma, meaning through life.
Cryosin
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States182 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-09 07:53:34
March 09 2011 07:38 GMT
#37
On March 09 2011 16:14 febreze wrote:
I just played a game on your map, and zerg seems OP. Terran MM gets stuck a lot by mass speedlings or BL. Basically zerglings can now hold their own since collision walls are created in engagements which favours swarmy playstyles.

Marines could do well with smaller collision sizes.



thank you for your feedback! could you please post a replay?

I am not saying its your play that is the matter, but a replay will help with many things(this is for everyone) such as:

1) How much bigger/smaller marines need to be

2) What situations favor zerglings over marines.

3) Other fine details that may cause imbalance issues.

I knew ahead of time that Zerg might be a bit overpowered, but replays would tremendously help me fine tune the mod.
woozie
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden53 Posts
March 09 2011 08:09 GMT
#38
I just published it on EU under the name "No Deathballs - Xel Naga - By Cryosin 'n Alongschlong".

... but I think Alongschlong got shafted, because when I checked the map after upload, "Alongschlong" wasn't part of the name anymore Too long map name I guess.
Cryosin
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States182 Posts
March 09 2011 08:12 GMT
#39
On March 09 2011 17:09 woozie wrote:
I just published it on EU under the name "No Deathballs - Xel Naga - By Cryosin 'n Alongschlong".

... but I think Alongschlong got shafted, because when I checked the map after upload, "Alongschlong" wasn't part of the name anymore Too long map name I guess.



Thank you for uploading! I will update the OP.
woozie
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden53 Posts
March 09 2011 08:39 GMT
#40
On March 09 2011 17:12 Cryosin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2011 17:09 woozie wrote:
I just published it on EU under the name "No Deathballs - Xel Naga - By Cryosin 'n Alongschlong".

... but I think Alongschlong got shafted, because when I checked the map after upload, "Alongschlong" wasn't part of the name anymore Too long map name I guess.



Thank you for uploading! I will update the OP.

I've tested it out now, and It's pretty cool mod! Gotta try against some friends later, but for now I've had a couple of matches against AI.

If anyones interested, replays below
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/455671/No Deathballs Replays.zip
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