|
On March 11 2011 02:57 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place  . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t. Please don't. To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. This is getting kind of sad, it's like when your favorite dog dies and you get him stuffed instead of moving on. Why didn't Blizzard do this? Because they were trying to make a new game, this shit is unbelievable, Blizzard puts out another quality product after 10 years of research and development and all I hear is that it's either too much like BW or not enough like BW. Furthermore Blizzard employs the most talented game designers and artists in the f-ing world. Do you seriously think changing a couple of settings in the editor (THAT THEY BUILT!) is beyond them? Am I the only one who thinks micro is way more fun now? Battles look way way more impressive, Blizzard added a SHITLOAD of new mechanics, units, and content and still maintains a level of balance that is untouchable in the industry. But then someone changes a couple of settings and we get "ZOMG! SOMEONE TELL BLIZZARD WE FIXED THE GAME!" If blizzard made a balance patch like this people would shit their pants because the game would be completely broken and ten years of work would be for nothing. Sorry about the soap box, I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry.
There is no way you were into broodwar before starcraft 2. If you were, you would see right away how this deathball clusterf**k looks horrible and seems incredibly wrong. Micro more fun? What part of moving a huge ball of units together requires micro? Its definitely your opinion, but i just cant see how someone could have followed the bw scene, then sc2 comes out and they honestly think the deathball thing was a good move. Yes sc2 is its own game, and yes its fine if its different, but it should be different in the sense that it improves upon its predecessor, not just different for the sake of being different, even if its in the wrong direction. SC2 is where the future of esports is, and people like OP simply want the game to be as close to perfect as possible, and i strongly believe that his mod is an improvement. Deathball makes the game nooby, and makes it hard on the spectators.
And i love blizzard and i think they are amazing, but i also think they make mistakes just like anyone else. And honestly, for a complex game like sc2, I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T make any.
Anyways to OP, in your next version please choose a bigger map. With larger unit collision sizes, the maps are going to seem smaller and tighter, so a map like xelnaga won't do too well. I'd suggest one of the bigger more open blizzard maps.
Unit collision sizes I believe need to be toned down slightly. Right now the spacing seems a tad extreme. Also you talk about reducing the size of certain units like the stalker. Its funny because the stalker used to be smaller before blizz increased its size, did you know? Just thought I'd mention. Great work, keep it up.
|
On March 11 2011 02:57 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t. Please don't. To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. ... I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry.
He's not trying to make it into BW (that's SC2:BW). He's trying to make it into SC2 without deathballs. And I'm getting really tired of seeing every attempt at changing things up met with the old "why don't you go play BW" retort.
|
On March 11 2011 05:45 Cryosin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 02:57 Fateless wrote:On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t. Please don't. To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. This is getting kind of sad, it's like when your favorite dog dies and you get him stuffed instead of moving on. Why didn't Blizzard do this? Because they were trying to make a new game, this shit is unbelievable, Blizzard puts out another quality product after 10 years of research and development and all I hear is that it's either too much like BW or not enough like BW. Furthermore Blizzard employs the most talented game designers and artists in the f-ing world. Do you seriously think changing a couple of settings in the editor (THAT THEY BUILT!) is beyond them? Am I the only one who thinks micro is way more fun now? Battles look way way more impressive, Blizzard added a SHITLOAD of new mechanics, units, and content and still maintains a level of balance that is untouchable in the industry. But then someone changes a couple of settings and we get "ZOMG! SOMEONE TELL BLIZZARD WE FIXED THE GAME!" If blizzard made a balance patch like this people would shit their pants because the game would be completely broken and ten years of work would be for nothing. Sorry about the soap box, I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry. I think you're taking the intent of this mod the wrong way. The goal was not to make something "better", because better at this point is opinion. In "my" opinion(and clearly many others), the "deathball" mechanic of SC2 is not very fun to play. I am no trying to make this game more like BW(there is SC2BW mod, which is a great mod that does that). All i want is for the game to feel much more open and spacious, which again is personal preference. I think the mod community adjusting the game to their preferences is something blizzard actually wants. For example: ICCUP ladder was introduced by the community and was a big reason sc1 had its life prolonged so significantly. Im not gonna say that my mod is prolonging the life of SC2, but thats what the mod community should be doing, in whatever way they can.
Just to clarify, that wasn't directed at you. I understand that you were innocently making a legitimate mod that impacts gameplay significantly, and I noticed you were already evaluating the way it affected gameplay, so clearly you're doing something productive here that you enjoy.
I was more reacting to posts like the one I quoted and expressing a general dissatisfaction for the idea that SC2 is broken because it's not BW.
I hope you get tons of good feedback and an awesome community response.I have absolutely nothing against your mod, the idea is very compelling and could lead to some interesting gameplay. but the idea that this is the direction Blizz should take in balancing the game is just silly because it would completely defeat a lot of the new mechanics they worked so hard to implement.
|
Seeing the OP you kind of realise that 'balance' can be quite subjectiv 
Props to you for trying to make something even tough personally I never really understood what his wrong with closely packed units, I mean a line of roach will definitly beat the crap out of a ball of roaché
|
On March 11 2011 09:11 gun.slinger wrote:Seeing the OP you kind of realise that 'balance' can be quite subjectiv Props to you for trying to make something even tough personally I never really understood what his wrong with closely packed units, I mean a line of roach will definitly beat the crap out of a ball of roaché
Imagine a 200/200 army in SC2, which I'm sure you've seen before. Now imagine that same army with this mod, spread across half the map and engaging on multiple fronts. This mod will definitely allow those sort of epic battles to happen and that is something I'm sure many people would like to see. So far, no pro SC2 games I have watched have that large-scale feel because everything clumps so tightly. This mod seeks to change that.
|
The question I have is, is it possible at all to clump units?
This is some pic I found off of google, but it serves it's purposes. While units in BW would spread out quite naturally, you COULD still clump them up if you needed too very tightly. I'm sure you've seen Zerg's in BW clump up their groups of lings so that they take up less space, and tanks often would clump up into very tight groups.
If you can't have units to the point where they are actually touching then IMO it would take a small part of the game away and it might look a little strange. Obviously I have to play the map before I can comment on how natural it would play out in a normal game, but that's just one of my concerns.
|
I think you're right about the clumping in bw , unit could clump , but they couldn't move in a ball formation . I think it was a consequence of the pathing algorithm in broodwar , and the fact that units could only move in 8 directions, so it would be really hard to make things work like they did in broodwar. However it doesn't mean that increasing unit colision size is not a good idea , it might be enough to improve the gameplay.
Concerning the maps I think you should definitely try somes of the big gsl maps.
|
New version out. Just create a game and the update will download. Steppes of War is also available as a map.
Please check em out!
|
Battles look way way more impressive
If you're saying this based on the visuals, then ya I guess that makes sense but doesn't reflect gameplay at all.
I have no interest in the graphics when watching high level games. Lurker/ling/defiler's (and many other unit comp's) beauty in bw came from the difficulty in controlling the army, not how it looked or how smooth the units moved. A well executed flank or a great swarm is what I like to see, not how shiny the new units are.
|
i dont understand how people see deathball engagement as more impressive than a BW style unit spread that has several small scenarios going on where units are flanking, target firing in groups, kiting and retreating when weakened, moving out of each others way etc. Deathballs largely isolate small micro scenarios within fights in favour of huge 1a fests.
|
On March 11 2011 10:21 0mgVitaminE wrote:If you're saying this based on the visuals, then ya I guess that makes sense but doesn't reflect gameplay at all. I have no interest in the graphics when watching high level games. Lurker/ling/defiler's (and many other unit comp's) beauty in bw came from the difficulty in controlling the army, not how it looked or how smooth the units moved. A well executed flank or a great swarm is what I like to see, not how shiny the new units are.
But it DOES affect gameplay. Flanking and getting a good spread are way more important with this. With deathball, the spread doesnt matter, you can right click, 1a click, right click, a click, your ranged units forward and since they're so close they would all get shots in. Here a spread is necessary and melee units naturally benefit from it as well, which i think is a good thing.
|
Great idea OP, as someone who's only seen a few BW games, the multiple fronted micro battles were much more enjoyable to watch than the majority of current 1a style games I'm used to seeing in SC2, can't wait to give it a go in the morning!
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 11 2011 07:58 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 05:45 Cryosin wrote:On March 11 2011 02:57 Fateless wrote:On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t. Please don't. To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. This is getting kind of sad, it's like when your favorite dog dies and you get him stuffed instead of moving on. Why didn't Blizzard do this? Because they were trying to make a new game, this shit is unbelievable, Blizzard puts out another quality product after 10 years of research and development and all I hear is that it's either too much like BW or not enough like BW. Furthermore Blizzard employs the most talented game designers and artists in the f-ing world. Do you seriously think changing a couple of settings in the editor (THAT THEY BUILT!) is beyond them? Am I the only one who thinks micro is way more fun now? Battles look way way more impressive, Blizzard added a SHITLOAD of new mechanics, units, and content and still maintains a level of balance that is untouchable in the industry. But then someone changes a couple of settings and we get "ZOMG! SOMEONE TELL BLIZZARD WE FIXED THE GAME!" If blizzard made a balance patch like this people would shit their pants because the game would be completely broken and ten years of work would be for nothing. Sorry about the soap box, I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry. I think you're taking the intent of this mod the wrong way. The goal was not to make something "better", because better at this point is opinion. In "my" opinion(and clearly many others), the "deathball" mechanic of SC2 is not very fun to play. I am no trying to make this game more like BW(there is SC2BW mod, which is a great mod that does that). All i want is for the game to feel much more open and spacious, which again is personal preference. I think the mod community adjusting the game to their preferences is something blizzard actually wants. For example: ICCUP ladder was introduced by the community and was a big reason sc1 had its life prolonged so significantly. Im not gonna say that my mod is prolonging the life of SC2, but thats what the mod community should be doing, in whatever way they can. Just to clarify, that wasn't directed at you. I understand that you were innocently making a legitimate mod that impacts gameplay significantly, and I noticed you were already evaluating the way it affected gameplay, so clearly you're doing something productive here that you enjoy. I was more reacting to posts like the one I quoted and expressing a general dissatisfaction for the idea that SC2 is broken because it's not BW. I hope you get tons of good feedback and an awesome community response.I have absolutely nothing against your mod, the idea is very compelling and could lead to some interesting gameplay. but the idea that this is the direction Blizz should take in balancing the game is just silly because it would completely defeat a lot of the new mechanics they worked so hard to implement.
First - thumbs up to both of you, unlike many others on this site you were able to have a really civlized argument despite having very opposing positions. Nice to see that happen every once in a while.
I don't have much to say on the whole topic and the mod itself, just one thing to you fateless, while I do agree that SC2 is a new game and know that it will not ever be BW (BW can not be replicated, many things that made bw so balanced and great were actually because of the *bad engine* of broodwar - which others might call genius, a matter of opinion. ) I do think you should keep in mind that whatever makes this a better game is a step in the right direction - be it more bw-esque or not, if SC2 is broken or not, BW became as balanced and good as it was because people were open for change and discussed about stuff. Without change a game can not evolve. Sure it might've been someone who had the exact attitude you adressed, but it really shouldn't matter if it really improves the game, no? I'm a BW'er and if something that was in W3 got implemented to SC2 and made it a lot better game I would appreciate that as well for example.
That's pretty much all I wanted to add! 
Cheers
|
Wow. A mod that addresses my biggest problem with the game! Thanks so much.
Not that I think they would, but if blizzard implemented this (or at least spaced units out a bit more) the game would be so much better (though it probably would need balance adjustments).
Question: is your mod like BW where the units naturally stay spread, but you can micro them close together like zergling walls?
|
Nice job! I'll definitely check this out at some point. Units that ball up less is something SC2 really needs to make it more fun to both play and watch.
Also, maybe I missed it in the OP, but does this affect ramp blocking? Are you able to block the ramp with just 1 or 2 units like in BW?
|
Isn't there a more simple way to get rid of deathballs? Uhh like making a unit selection cap.
|
On March 12 2011 12:28 Essentia wrote:
Isn't there a more simple way to get rid of deathballs? Uhh like making a unit selection cap.
That might get rid of the ability to move a giant ball with just 1a, but it wouldnt change the fact that all units will still be super tightly clumped which is both bad for the game and bad for spectators.
|
A very novel idea for the BW fans, good to see someone trying to change the gameplay.
Like a previous poster said, I will agree that this should just stay a custom and not be implemented into the game itself. BW had the no-deathballing syndrome and unit selection cap due to the game engine back then, i'm sure it wasn't intentionally made to have 'huge scale' battles. Micro was more taxing and difficult just due to that- a limited game engine.
(If anything i find flanking to be more difficult in this game, it's harder to select just a few units in one box to spread out, rather than just grabbing a full control group from BW)
|
Dude. Seriously.
people keep saying starcraft 2 has no micro, and will have no micro.
I realize a lot of us are from different games and backgrounds, but here's a concept that I don't think is explained well enough, so I'm going to try:
starcraft 1 was not "figured out" within 1 year of beta... At this point, barring huge imbalances, people were figuring out unit mixes and the fastest way to move stuff out. War2 players had a vastly new engine to explore, physics were tight as a drum...there's 10 years of unexplored tactics and strategery for sc2, and this map is not moving us in the right direction
starcraft 2 micro:
+ Show Spoiler +micro in brood war was fairly straightforward: the AI is bad so you have to make up for that, meanwhile avoiding the 1 hit death units and splash damage. of course it's endlessly more complex, but the goals are obvious.
starcraft 2 micro so far often revolves around positioning and map abuse, better concaves and things like that. it's definitely more abstract.
|
On March 12 2011 16:53 jimmyjingle wrote:
Dude. Seriously.
people keep saying starcraft 2 has no micro, and will have no micro.
I realize a lot of us are from different games and backgrounds, but here's a concept that I don't think is explained well enough, so I'm going to try:
starcraft 1 was not "figured out" within 1 year of beta... At this point, barring huge imbalances, people were figuring out unit mixes and the fastest way to move stuff out. War2 players had a vastly new engine to explore, physics were tight as a drum...there's 10 years of unexplored tactics and strategery for sc2, and this map is not moving us in the right direction
starcraft 2 micro:
micro in brood war was fairly straightforward: the AI is bad so you have to make up for that, meanwhile avoiding the 1 hit death units and splash damage. of course it's endlessly more complex, but the goals are obvious.
starcraft 2 micro so far often revolves around positioning and map abuse, better concaves and things like that. it's definitely more abstract.
Are you implying BW doesn't have that? It has way more positioning, map abuse and other abstract concepts than sc2. Maybe you should watch some BW games some time. ;;
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://rakrent.com/rtsc/pix/scbw/scbw-melee.jpg)
