EPTWho killed Black Fog? - Page 2
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
Its nice for nostalgia. But in game, its just annoying. | ||
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baskerville
541 Posts
Bravo for tl favorites' insights, I'd much rather have a thread link from any of the people who've declared all high and mighty that they've had to withstand "this shit" once already... excuse me for impeding on something so tiresome (bet the worker to the unbeknown destroyed rocks was more flashy, still it was useful discussing it..no?). Well I'll still be happy with what I got. Oh iGrok, what I meant by "intelligent" micro was just my way of saying just plain "early micro", cause there sure as hell is not a lot of micro when you indeed know the layout by heart and your job is lessened by worker scouting ai (who knows the layout already, even with black mask) ..and you're having no fun in your game unless everything is reassuring and as it should be... it's more interesting micro for the same inverse reason that keeping multiple queued actions is good for the game, because it's (again) steering the game towards the most interesting and varied array of gameplay... you were less cozied in at the start of the game, you are more on edge when trying to find out where your opponent spawned... that's the equalizer in rts... the fear of fear itself, I like that and there's less of it for us that do enjoy it. I'll stop ranting with this post + Show Spoiler + or indeed in any threads Just this..., I wanted to know what people thought. I know what some of you guys think now, so thank you... euhhh no... for everyone thank you, exept Jinro... I don't see anything remotely useful in what he said, explaining why this such a shitty discussion for him would have been easy, but that's not how tl rolls and that's probably why he's as rude as most of the tl juvenile posters are regularly and this on all kind of subjects. The agrro in sc2 i love, the agrro on tl makes me banned... see ya or rather read ya. edit: Yay the thread is dead (on page 2), much rejoicing Yay! | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
Bottom line: I think seeing the entire map just creates an overview that I'm very comfortable with, and most people who plays the same amount as me will agree. It's pretty noobfriendly which is probably also the purpose of the design. | ||
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unbal3
Korea (South)131 Posts
Black fog matters zip in pro, cuz ppl are gonna have played the same map so many times they know every nook and cranny. Same goes for anyone who has played 100+ games (unless you're a slow learner... sorry). The lack of complete obscurity makes it easier for people to get into new maps (so you don't see a wall of "1v1 Python newbs only!!" when you hit alt+j) and anybody who is remotely half decent at the game is going to figure out the map after a game or two anyway. If you're the kind who has to rely on your opponent not knowing maps in order to win, then... go back to copper league... or something... that's my two cents. | ||
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lurkerbelow
United States13 Posts
(not sure how coding it to do special effects would work..like giving it cloaking/phasing) | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On December 28 2010 21:07 baskerville wrote: @ LlamaNamedOsama In every case, repetition in maps get's you an advantage... we have too much knowledge of Kulas Ravine (I picked the first name to come to mind, it's too much about every blizz map)... because no other melee maps are played (OVERALL %wise and other sugar coated ways of saying "most of us")). There are no more advantages with black fog than with the gray discovered down scaled current ladder fog, people with a good eye for layouts will always catch on quicker and leave it at that, that's the case regardless on any layout type game. Furthermore "accepted" black fog maps would be a MAPMAKER'S WORTHY CHALLENGE to produce... not to mention a delight to see uncovered by high level of play.. it'd take a lot of guts to declare your map "fair" wouldn't it? "there would be nowhere near enough mapmaking to satisfy demands", you kidding right? have been to get a headcount on the number of maps done after less than a year...? I'm not saying quantity is quality, I just mean loads of good mappers, some have been doing it for 2 decades. "Under such a system, once a SINGLE game is played on that map, it goes in the trash bin" no, it rotates to the back of your own random map pool "...forces players to become more adaptable", if you mean in a general I agree, the new would be newish never unknown, it's always sc2 melee not astrophysics, the reaper always needs a supply depot + Show Spoiler + (seeing how non progressive you guys all are is jaw breaking) I feel it would benefit everyone! I so agree with the positioning bid: "reacting/adapting in terms of your opponent's positioning", andddd alas I agree that it does steer away from something "purer", but I'm entirely sure that only one style is not what I want... what most people want ? Most people've yet to fully realize what they could do to further their own exponential addict needs, once that awareness has been reached, it'll be pure gold to be a part of this community, prevalent or not. "Reacting to seeing a funky doodad in a random spot really has no significance then", have you heard of the doodad on Xelnaga caverns (thread about a doodad making him loose the game... I smiled for a half hour, like someone you've just given his full loaded wallet back to, we should give the doodad a name: + Show Spoiler + I'd choose ninô. @iGrok can't wait to duke it out, I'll be na sometime in january (long postal delay), I feel you crushing me will not convince you that I'm wrong, on the contrary! Cause you'll have more fun playing back and forth with me (probably too old for any of you diamond I got time on my hands players apm wise) than you would with "standard" play...I hope. Until then, we'll argue on semantics: i think it's more important to scout then to get one extra guy, what you'd favor... honestly I'm just happy we're discussing the issue... and hopefully will be doing so a lot, hope you'll join me in admitting that the fun part is play and it's many natures... I don't quote japonese sorry. I'm sure the jist would be: in order to win, others must loose... don't enter the arena of combat without purpose to win, otherwise you've lost already... maybe the first the prince from Machiavelli ..??! "better micro", all for it mate, I think black fog requires more "intelligent" micro, and that's why I wanna see how idrA scouts in a map he's never "been in", would we see iceman finally sacrifice a drone? I'll try to refrain on the cacophony, but it does not make any difference, I'd hope passion would wake up some of them lurkers, wrong! So first I'll quickly note for your #3 and 4: your main point really is solely that it would be "cool." Inserting randomness into the system, while creating a sense of novelty, is not suitable for a level of ladder play which is focused on skill. Feel free to go ahead and do it with UMS, but your arbitrary conception of "coolness" is not a sufficient reason to destabilize a system that wants to focus on balance and the encouragement of skill-based play. You said that skill is subjective, but that's absolutely not true - if that were so, neither brood war nor sc2 would have even remotely developed to the extent they have now with professional tournaments and players. Heck, why let people choose races then instead of forcing everyone to always play random?. You're also not responding to my statements. You're just repeating that "right now people who play the maps more frequently already have an advantage." No, they do not have an advantage because all someone less familiar has to do is USE THEIR EYES and they will see that map layout. If there was black fog, THEN that pre-memorized map familiarity actually has a role because players would actually use it. There's zero advantage to someone being familiar with metalopolis when a n00b can see the exact same layout by scrolling to that same part of the map. There is a difference between knowledge of how to implement a strategy on kulas ravine [for ex, nazguls blink stalker use against idra in MLG] versus simple knowledge of its actual layout. Despite newness to the game, any smart player can utilize cliffs strategically [see one of Boxer's early VoDs against IdrA where he parked tanks on the cliff in Xelnaga Caverns - despite the fact that opponents had long played that map before him, all it took was his intelligence and a quick glance at the terran to utilize that strategy in that way]. Furthermore "accepted" black fog maps would be a MAPMAKER'S WORTHY CHALLENGE to produce... not to mention a delight to see uncovered by high level of play.. it'd take a lot of guts to declare your map "fair" wouldn't it? Again, all you're doing is saying "IT'D BE REALLY COOL" in more words. I'm addressing maps specifically in the next part of your post: "there would be nowhere near enough mapmaking to satisfy demands", you kidding right? have been to get a headcount on the number of maps done after less than a year...? I'm not saying quantity is quality, I just mean loads of good mappers, some have been doing it for 2 decades. Of course you're not saying quantity is quality, and that's exactly my point - you can't. Out of a 1,000 maps produced, maybe a dozen might be suitable for use in ladder. How many custom maps have you seen that have been determined good enough to use by tournaments? Look at reality, bud. Even if you totaled all of the bw iccup maps ever made [over what, a decade?], you would have nowhere near the number of maps necessary to always keep them fresh within a year. Even if you had 100 maps, top-levels gamers who regularly play more 1,000 games in 3 months would be familiar. it rotates to the back of your own random map pool A random map pool would be entirely different from having black fog. Hell, you could implement a random map pool, even ask for more diversity in custom maps [aka what everyone has already said a million times, specifically wondering if more iccup maps could be used], and that would solve your problem. Black fog in itself would be pointless. Also, that's kinda already what happens in battle.net. You get a random map from the pool. If you want that pool to CONSTANTLY CHANGE, then again you need thousands upon thousands of BALANCED maps. That is not a "challenge," that is a high-level standard because while you're thinking about how "cool" it'd be, there are pro-gamers who maintain living based on competitive play premised upon fair circumstances. If anything, this line of yours sums it all up: but I'm entirely sure that only one style is not what I want... what most people want ? This is just some random idea that you think is cool because it throws in "randomness" which gives it the illusion of novelty, but by definition, "randomness" means arbitrariness rather than skill or strategy, which is the vital bedrock that surrounds the Brood War quality gaming you're appealing to in the OP. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
Removing it is a step forward, end of story On December 28 2010 21:07 baskerville wrote: + Show Spoiler + (seeing how non progressive you guys all are is jaw breaking) All of us are non-progressive, but you who wants to return to an old system which gives a person whos memorized a map even more advantage over someone who has no clue whats where than they already would have based on things like knowing where to tank drop? Quit trolling | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
don't worry the thread'll get buried soon enough This is a good idea. Lets just all let this thread die now, mmk? | ||
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baskerville
541 Posts
On December 29 2010 02:41 lurkerbelow wrote: there's a white fog emitter and you might be able to change its texture color inside editor (not sure how coding it to do special effects would work..like giving it cloaking/phasing) Nice, thanks for posting, I'd like to pick your brain, you get access to mine anytime. | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
But Starcraft 2 Brood War (by MavercK) does have black fog. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Xswordy
United Kingdom425 Posts
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
for pro games, people memorize maps well enough for it not to matter. for non pro players, all itll do is make people practice in single player mode until theyve memorized it enough to not worry about black fog. black fog unnecessarily punishes the newest players based purely on memorization. it adds no strategic or excitement value to the game | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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catamorphist
United States297 Posts
him name is hopkin black fog P.S. I'll find my fog | ||
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EffectS
Belgium795 Posts
Who killed Black Fog? I did. My real question is, has anyone published a functional Black Fog map ...?!? Not that I know of. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10153 Posts
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