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Why does no one care that we all lost an extra layer of the game some people never even knew about!?
"Compared to BW, I feel that it is much simpler to scout in StarCraft 2 due to the way the entire map is essentially revealed at the start and that there is no black fog of war. I personally have no problem with this as the black fog of war always made me feel a little more claustrophobic. But for competitive purposes, does this take a lot of the skill and importance of scouting out of StarCraft? I haven't heard much opposition to this rather simple change. But essentially this can make unit positioning much easier and much more precise... when you haven't even scouted out an area. What do you guys think?"
What he said, ver bettom! (well... the feeling was not the same, I loved it!)
+ Show Spoiler +This was a quote from a previous thread: + Show Spoiler +Forum index > Closed ForKvatch United States. June 29 2010 02:18. Posts 50 PM Profile Quote # Compared to BW, I feel that it is much simpler to scout in StarCraft 2 due the way the entire map is essentially revealed at the start and that there is no black fog of war. I personally have no problem with this as the black fog of war always made me feel a little more claustrophobic. But for competitive purposes, does this take a lot of the skill and importance of scouting out of StarCraft? I haven't heard much opposition to this rather simple change. But essentially this can make unit positioning much easier and much more precise (i.e. position siege tanks exactly where you want them) when you haven't even scouted out an area. What do you guys think? They call me fork. + Show Spoiler +Old Post
Plexa Administrator June 29 2010 02:19. PM Profile Blog Quote #
We had a massive discussion about this... use search first!
~ Spirit will set you free ~
Old Post
I used it and found discussions about the fog yes...(search yourself for fog or black fog...) , but none about the Black!)
My real question is, has anyone published a functional Black Fog map ...?!?
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On December 28 2010 13:15 baskerville wrote:
My real question is, has anyone published a functional Black Fog map ...?!?
An 11-Legged Chair
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arrête ton char ben hur
edit: + Show Spoiler +apparently that's the name of a map... so easy to confuse it for ....?? a pun perhaps
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I am very glad they got rid of the black fog. It made playing a map for the first time a lot less annoying. It should make it possible to switch maps more often even at the lower levels - too bad the map pool is so stagnant thus far.
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Personally, it does make things extremely simplistic, but in a sense of "competetive" play it does take some skill out of it. It gives someone more perception and thus giving them more room to "breathe" and play stronger with a better gamesense.
In my opinion they should leave it up to the map makers to create fog of war or not. Maybe map pool 2 maps fog of war 8 maps 6-8 without. Just to switch things up, btw I like the quote inside the quote which was inside a quote that was inside another quote that you quoted.
Merlin
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They removed the Black fog because it made playing new maps really confusing. And it also makes scouting more precise. No more accidently clicking on high ground and making your units go somewhere completely else. It's a really good change IMO.
It isn't fully gone though, you can still have custom games with black fog. And there's also black fog in the campaign.
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so Blizz dumbing it up then? Or are we? Players mapmakers..??
I respectfully disagree with Terr and wholeheartedly agree with MERLIN's notion that it would behoove players to be able to master this extra feature, he says at least used on or off (I'd say every game of mine).
However I insist that players should have to scout not re scout..!!!
This taken into account the ladder pool.... triple lol with facepalm included... you guys have played the maps so many times you'd like rediscovering the feeling to play them... trust me.
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Lack of black fog of war gave me a lot of confidence from starting out from a player who couldn't beat a computer in SC1 to a platinum level player in SC2. And at the higher levels, it isn't even really that necessary, as they know the maps well enough.
Having black fog just seems to turn away lower level players, and not mean much further up. Having most maps without black fog is a much better system, in my opinion. However, for a few maps for flavor, it might be nice.
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Q-Who killed Black Fog?
A-Some one practical and forward looking.
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All black fog does is ensure that people who've played the map before/more have an advantage. How is that at all skill or strategy related? That's just purely rote memorization on the most robotic level.
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Q-How do you determine practical people these days
A-By taking away any type of innovation and creativity so that everyone can generally know exactly what to do or where to go, let us all be conformists because its "practical".
To Terin's comment, I generally agree fog of war is "scary" to new players, they should then perhaps have the pool division orientated? Bronze - Gold no FogofWar, Plat and up with?
That is a bit outlandish, but like I said and that you agreed with. A few would be nice.
Merlin.
To edit, if you were to ask any higherlevel gamer, meaning above 50 diamond (thats even stretching it) might wanna go farther up the ladder to 25+ but if you were to ask all of them to take a poll of which is generally harder to play on, they'd obviously say fog of war. I promise that we know the map off by hand, but it adds just a tiny bit of scouting need, making sure your army is on the right path, making sure the expos are scanned.
Point is, if you are trying to say Fog of War has no effect on upper-level gamers... You are flat out incorrect.
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On December 28 2010 15:17 MERLIN. wrote:
Q-How do you determine practical people these days
A-By taking away any type of innovation and creativity so that everyone can generally know exactly what to do or where to go, let us all be conformists because its "practical".
To Terin's comment, I generally agree fog of war is "scary" to new players, they should then perhaps have the pool division orientated? Bronze - Gold no FogofWar, Plat and up with?
That is a bit outlandish, but like I said and that you agreed with. A few would be nice.
Merlin.
To edit, if you were to ask any higherlevel gamer, meaning above 50 diamond (thats even stretching it) might wanna go farther up the ladder to 25+ but if you were to ask all of them to take a poll of which is generally harder to play on, they'd obviously say fog of war. I promise that we know the map off by hand, but it adds just a tiny bit of scouting need, making sure your army is on the right path, making sure the expos are scanned.
Point is, if you are trying to say Fog of War has no effect on upper-level gamers... You are flat out incorrect.
"no FogofWar" - Are you sure you're addressing the thread subject specifically? It's not about fog of war, it's about black fog. So repeating my previous question, how does preexisting knowledge of the map layout have ANYTHING to do with skill or strategy? All that black fog does is ensure that people who've simply played the map before or more frequently have an advantage, which is flatout rewarding rote memorization on the basest level. This is wholly distinct from things like Build Orders, which must be strategically chosen based on race matchup, opponent's play-style, and often must be adapted to win when in-game circumstances shift, rather than the muscle memory of knowing to click one degree to the left at this one spot.
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all my SC2BW maps use Black Mask.
it's actually kinda necessary since without it you can drone drill without having to scout up the ramp...
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"taking away any type of innovation and creativity so that everyone can generally know exactly what to do or where to go, let us all be conformists because its "practical"
Thanks Merlin, I 'm however not sure everyone will get the degree to which this conformity affects us all everyday of our o so short lives... or even get your second in your post.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 28 2010 15:33 Barrin wrote:
Map ->
Options ->
Unexplored Areas ->
change "Grey Mask" to "Black Mask"
note: as Terr mentioned, this makes the map 'custom' instead of 'melee'
I have never decided how I feel about the change TBH. I probably don't think it's a bad thing though.
Thank you for editor tips, I'm aware.. still it probably needed typing, every leak might be eye opener to some, so I gather you have not done any Black fog maps then, sensible if you feel it's not needed.
MavercK: "all my SC2BW maps use Black Mask."
yippi I'm not the only one to think that it's worth fighting for it then!
I thought drone drillin had been banned from blizzland as of 1.2?
To respond :
1/how does knowing the map by heart even enter the fray? Players learning the maps by heart is what we got right now, and is probably what most players will always be doing...
However there is such a thing as the random map playing + Show Spoiler +(it survived until w3 but is no more?)
You only need a fair start point, a GOOD map... that's the real rts...improv have no fear never surrender always be aware in "contact" and dishin 100% commitment, not like me getting good at how to pile up dishes quietly or polish m' boy's ass proper just cause I been doing it for so long!
2/specifics out the window, the black mask or black fog of war is a feature (how many to follow?) that was sacrificed on the altar of mediocrity (it f..ing should be in ladder... it's more compelling, favours playing lots of different of maps, raises your skill ceiling... I don't ask for all units to have attack move capabilities that'd be absurd, I'd like one for each race for instance.. that's widening the game... that's entertainment...
3/skill is subjective, I for one feel it takes more corones to comfortably jump into an unknown map that's all (the memory shite I care not about)... I think it's too easy the way it is in ladder (like I said a lot: I don't like people downsizing my fun (I get that to hook up addicts you have to give the first dose for free thank you (but past 30 fun has to be real fun, otherwise it's not (plus you open more parentheses than you might end up being able to close)))
4/I for one feel that in a 100 playable maps for a ladder pool, 50 should be featuring black fog for the first weeks that they are added... the argument that frequent flyer get frequent flyer miles is like arguing the egg and chicken routine...
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Black fog serves no purpose other than to reward the player who has played that map more. Sure, top players know the map, roughly, but the grey fog allows them to double check exactly where to send their troops.
Drone drilling doesn't work anyways.
There's no reason for it to be in ladder, other than to, again, give advantage to mass gamers.
It's only in the editor for the hardcore BW people and for UMS (to hide certain sections of the map).
If you want to play on black FoW maps, make them and play them with people who want to. Please don't constantly post about it (post in Questions, post asking why no one responded, others).
Also, please stop making random analogies. They really don't add to your argument, and really just left me confused as to what your actually point was.
Leaving out the run-on sentences would help as well.
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iGrok, thank you for posting, I again respectfully disagree..black fog has several important purposes:
leaving a trail for both players (marvelous for replays)
gives an authenticity to the deployment of your units
looks cool, it's the darkest black of the editor (!?)
makes scouting more important then producing workers and set them to multiple ralies around and around to mine some gold... + Show Spoiler +snow white is cute but i'm not a dwarf... if you don't get ANY of my analogies perhaps discussing the matter at hand would be more useful for everyone than discussing said metaphors... you dish out the op's discussion's intent like you've never even tested it...?
ahhh I'll redirect you to my previous posts.. the game is dumbed down without it.. progamers... who gives a toss? you are missing out without it..; I won't go on...
To answer your points, If you've read a little sun zu: I want everyone to play black fog maps..
I'll settle for what the community does.
About UMS, I haven't been very thorough in searching, however I feel you are misinformed on the real (huge) difference there is between melee and ums as put into Black fog perspective... Black fog requires no "meddling", no prior tutoring to use or anything, black fog is about as not ums as they come, as far as features go.
As for "Leaving out the run-on sentences would help as well."... well I guess not.
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On December 28 2010 18:14 baskerville wrote:"taking away any type of innovation and creativity so that everyone can generally know exactly what to do or where to go, let us all be conformists because its "practical" Thanks Merlin, I 'm however not sure everyone will get the degree to which this conformity affects us all everyday of our o so short lives... or even get your second in your post. + Show Spoiler +On December 28 2010 15:33 Barrin wrote:
Map ->
Options ->
Unexplored Areas ->
change "Grey Mask" to "Black Mask"
note: as Terr mentioned, this makes the map 'custom' instead of 'melee'
I have never decided how I feel about the change TBH. I probably don't think it's a bad thing though.Thank you for editor tips, I'm aware.. still it probably needed typing, every leak might be eye opener to some, so I gather you have not done any Black fog maps then, sensible if you feel it's not needed. MavercK: "all my SC2BW maps use Black Mask." yippi I'm not the only one to think that it's worth fighting for it then! I thought drone drillin had been banned from blizzland as of 1.2? To respond : 1/how does knowing the map by heart even enter the fray? Players learning the maps by heart is what we got right now, and is probably what most players will always be doing... However there is such a thing as the random map playing + Show Spoiler +(it survived until w3 but is no more?) tribe filled with a certain caliber of player who PREFER to play maps that they discover ingame! You only need a fair start point, a GOOD map... that's the real rts...improv have no fear never surrender always be aware in "contact" and dishin 100% commitment, not like me getting good at how to pile up dishes quietly or polish m' boy's ass proper just cause I been doing it for so long! 2/specifics out the window, the black mask or black fog of war is a feature (how many to follow?) that was sacrificed on the altar of mediocrity (it f..ing should be in ladder... it's more compelling, favours playing lots of different of maps, raises your skill ceiling... I don't ask for all units to have attack move capabilities that'd be absurd, I'd like one for each race for instance.. that's widening the game... that's entertainment... 3/skill is subjective, I for one feel it takes more corones to comfortably jump into an unknown map that's all (the memory shite I care not about)... I think it's too easy the way it is in ladder (like I said a lot: I don't like people downsizing my fun (I get that to hook up addicts you have to give the first dose for free thank you (but past 30 fun has to be real fun, otherwise it's not (plus you open more parentheses than you might end up being able to close))) 4/I for one feel that in a 100 playable maps for a ladder pool, 50 should be featuring black fog for the first weeks that they are added... the argument that frequent flyer get frequent flyer miles is like arguing the egg and chicken routine...
#1: [it's really two-parted]
Re: "it's already done now"
A) You have causality reversed. It only happens now as an effect of people playing frequently, not as a motivating cause as to why people would play frequently. This distinction is important because in the status quo, it doesn't really play a role in winning if one already can know the general map layout regardless of memorization.
B) Even then, black fog would exacerbate the problem by making gameplay more contingent on their ability to memorize. The fact that people can see layout without memorization would make up for not having memorized every last detail of the map, whereas if black fog existed, there's a 100% discrepancy between the person with memorized data and the one without.
Re: Random Map Playing/Playing maps neither player knows about
This is also problematic in a ton of ways.
A) this ups the influence of randomness a TON. Scouting your opponent becomes contingent on your chance ability to click some random point on the black minimap more accurately than your opponent. Especially given SC2's greater emphasis on scouting and strategic builds [ie needing to scout air as a Zerg to properly respond, needing to scout cheese, etc.], this threatens to crucially throw the game off balance.
B) There would be nowhere near enough mapmaking to satisfy demands, especially with "quality" maps. Under such a system, once a SINGLE game is played on that map, it goes in the trash bin.
C) The only real claim to "skill/strategical" benefit here is that it in essence forces players to become more adaptable [in the context of new surroundings]. But adaptability is already embedded in the system in i. reacting to opponent builds, along with ii. reacting/adapting in terms of your opponent's positioning [for instance, TvT tank battles]. Reacting to seeing a funky doodad in a random spot really has no significance then. So while there's little to gain, on the other hand there's a pretty significant factor of arbitrariness under the previous points mentioned.
[I'll address rest tomorrow, gotta go for the moment]
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Current fog also leaves a trail in replays, but you can see the terrain under it -> better for replays. Viewers can see both the terrain AND where a player has been.
It's "authentic"... just think like you have an overhead map. Which you do because in the lobby there's one.
Ok, it looks cool. But i'd rather see all the terrain that people are starting to really spend a lot of time on.
Scouting is never more important than producing workers. Ever. Even in SC/BW. Unless you're reacting to something, executing a specific BO that requires you to cut workers, or you've saturated 2-3 bases, you keep producing workers throughout the game.+ Show Spoiler +I understood most of your analogies...eventually. But they really just distract. Just make your point, and people will agree or not. Regarding the OP, the entire thread has moved beyond "has anyone published a BF map" to "BF: Good or bad?". My comments were a response to your previous post.
And as to "you haven't even tested it", I'm just going to rely on 11 years experience as an SC/BW gamer, and 9 years as a mapper.
The game is not dumbed down without it. Grey fog requires less wasteful apm, which allows better macro and micro. And better micro definitely isn't boring.
Re: Sun Tzu - Post the quote you're referring to, please.
Regarding UMS, you misunderstood me. Black Fog is useful in UMS games where the creator wants to keep unexplored terrain hidden on the minimap.
Yes, it would. Try it.
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@ LlamaNamedOsama
In every case, repetition in maps get's you an advantage... we have too much knowledge of Kulas Ravine (I picked the first name to come to mind, it's too much about every blizz map)... because no other melee maps are played (OVERALL %wise and other sugar coated ways of saying "most of us")).
There are no more advantages with black fog than with the gray discovered down scaled current ladder fog, people with a good eye for layouts will always catch on quicker and leave it at that, that's the case regardless on any layout type game.
Furthermore "accepted" black fog maps would be a MAPMAKER'S WORTHY CHALLENGE to produce... not to mention a delight to see uncovered by high level of play.. it'd take a lot of guts to declare your map "fair" wouldn't it?
"there would be nowhere near enough mapmaking to satisfy demands", you kidding right? have been to get a headcount on the number of maps done after less than a year...? I'm not saying quantity is quality, I just mean loads of good mappers, some have been doing it for 2 decades.
"Under such a system, once a SINGLE game is played on that map, it goes in the trash bin"
no, it rotates to the back of your own random map pool
"...forces players to become more adaptable", if you mean in a general I agree, the new would be newish never unknown, it's always sc2 melee not astrophysics, the reaper always needs a supply depot + Show Spoiler +(seeing how non progressive you guys all are is jaw breaking)
I feel it would benefit everyone!
I so agree with the positioning bid: "reacting/adapting in terms of your opponent's positioning", andddd alas I agree that it does steer away from something "purer", but I'm entirely sure that only one style is not what I want... what most people want ?
Most people've yet to fully realize what they could do to further their own exponential addict needs, once that awareness has been reached, it'll be pure gold to be a part of this community, prevalent or not.
"Reacting to seeing a funky doodad in a random spot really has no significance then", have you heard of the doodad on Xelnaga caverns (thread about a doodad making him loose the game... I smiled for a half hour, like someone you've just given his full loaded wallet back to, we should give the doodad a name: + Show Spoiler +
@iGrok
can't wait to duke it out, I'll be na sometime in january (long postal delay), I feel you crushing me will not convince you that I'm wrong, on the contrary! Cause you'll have more fun playing back and forth with me (probably too old for any of you diamond I got time on my hands players apm wise) than you would with "standard" play...I hope. Until then, we'll argue on semantics: i think it's more important to scout then to get one extra guy, what you'd favor... honestly I'm just happy we're discussing the issue... and hopefully will be doing so a lot, hope you'll join me in admitting that the fun part is play and it's many natures...
I don't quote japonese sorry. I'm sure the jist would be: in order to win, others must loose... don't enter the arena of combat without purpose to win, otherwise you've lost already... maybe the first is from "the prince" from Machiavelli ..??!
"better micro", all for it mate, I think black fog requires more "intelligent" micro, and that's why I wanna see how idrA scouts in a map he's never "been in", would we see iceman finally sacrifice a drone?
I'll try to refrain on the cacophony, but it does not make any difference, I'd hope passion would wake up some of them lurkers, wrong!
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EPT
