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![[image loading]](http://www.cacaouete.net/sc2/editor020.jpg)
Why does no one care that we all lost an extra layer of the game some people never even knew about!?
"Compared to BW, I feel that it is much simpler to scout in StarCraft 2 due to the way the entire map is essentially revealed at the start and that there is no black fog of war. I personally have no problem with this as the black fog of war always made me feel a little more claustrophobic. But for competitive purposes, does this take a lot of the skill and importance of scouting out of StarCraft? I haven't heard much opposition to this rather simple change. But essentially this can make unit positioning much easier and much more precise... when you haven't even scouted out an area. What do you guys think?"
What he said, ver bettom! (well... the feeling was not the same, I loved it!)
+ Show Spoiler +This was a quote from a previous thread: + Show Spoiler +Forum index > Closed ForKvatch United States. June 29 2010 02:18. Posts 50 PM Profile Quote # Compared to BW, I feel that it is much simpler to scout in StarCraft 2 due the way the entire map is essentially revealed at the start and that there is no black fog of war. I personally have no problem with this as the black fog of war always made me feel a little more claustrophobic. But for competitive purposes, does this take a lot of the skill and importance of scouting out of StarCraft? I haven't heard much opposition to this rather simple change. But essentially this can make unit positioning much easier and much more precise (i.e. position siege tanks exactly where you want them) when you haven't even scouted out an area. What do you guys think? They call me fork. + Show Spoiler +Old Post
Plexa Administrator June 29 2010 02:19. PM Profile Blog Quote #
We had a massive discussion about this... use search first!
~ Spirit will set you free ~
Old Post
I used it and found discussions about the fog yes...(search yourself for fog or black fog...) , but none about the Black!)
My real question is, has anyone published a functional Black Fog map ...?!?
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On December 28 2010 13:15 baskerville wrote:
My real question is, has anyone published a functional Black Fog map ...?!?
An 11-Legged Chair
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arrête ton char ben hur
edit: + Show Spoiler +apparently that's the name of a map... so easy to confuse it for ....?? a pun perhaps
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I am very glad they got rid of the black fog. It made playing a map for the first time a lot less annoying. It should make it possible to switch maps more often even at the lower levels - too bad the map pool is so stagnant thus far.
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Personally, it does make things extremely simplistic, but in a sense of "competetive" play it does take some skill out of it. It gives someone more perception and thus giving them more room to "breathe" and play stronger with a better gamesense.
In my opinion they should leave it up to the map makers to create fog of war or not. Maybe map pool 2 maps fog of war 8 maps 6-8 without. Just to switch things up, btw I like the quote inside the quote which was inside a quote that was inside another quote that you quoted.
Merlin
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They removed the Black fog because it made playing new maps really confusing. And it also makes scouting more precise. No more accidently clicking on high ground and making your units go somewhere completely else. It's a really good change IMO.
It isn't fully gone though, you can still have custom games with black fog. And there's also black fog in the campaign.
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so Blizz dumbing it up then? Or are we? Players mapmakers..??
I respectfully disagree with Terr and wholeheartedly agree with MERLIN's notion that it would behoove players to be able to master this extra feature, he says at least used on or off (I'd say every game of mine).
However I insist that players should have to scout not re scout..!!!
This taken into account the ladder pool.... triple lol with facepalm included... you guys have played the maps so many times you'd like rediscovering the feeling to play them... trust me.
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Lack of black fog of war gave me a lot of confidence from starting out from a player who couldn't beat a computer in SC1 to a platinum level player in SC2. And at the higher levels, it isn't even really that necessary, as they know the maps well enough.
Having black fog just seems to turn away lower level players, and not mean much further up. Having most maps without black fog is a much better system, in my opinion. However, for a few maps for flavor, it might be nice.
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Q-Who killed Black Fog?
A-Some one practical and forward looking.
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All black fog does is ensure that people who've played the map before/more have an advantage. How is that at all skill or strategy related? That's just purely rote memorization on the most robotic level.
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Q-How do you determine practical people these days
A-By taking away any type of innovation and creativity so that everyone can generally know exactly what to do or where to go, let us all be conformists because its "practical".
To Terin's comment, I generally agree fog of war is "scary" to new players, they should then perhaps have the pool division orientated? Bronze - Gold no FogofWar, Plat and up with?
That is a bit outlandish, but like I said and that you agreed with. A few would be nice.
Merlin.
To edit, if you were to ask any higherlevel gamer, meaning above 50 diamond (thats even stretching it) might wanna go farther up the ladder to 25+ but if you were to ask all of them to take a poll of which is generally harder to play on, they'd obviously say fog of war. I promise that we know the map off by hand, but it adds just a tiny bit of scouting need, making sure your army is on the right path, making sure the expos are scanned.
Point is, if you are trying to say Fog of War has no effect on upper-level gamers... You are flat out incorrect.
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On December 28 2010 15:17 MERLIN. wrote:
Q-How do you determine practical people these days
A-By taking away any type of innovation and creativity so that everyone can generally know exactly what to do or where to go, let us all be conformists because its "practical".
To Terin's comment, I generally agree fog of war is "scary" to new players, they should then perhaps have the pool division orientated? Bronze - Gold no FogofWar, Plat and up with?
That is a bit outlandish, but like I said and that you agreed with. A few would be nice.
Merlin.
To edit, if you were to ask any higherlevel gamer, meaning above 50 diamond (thats even stretching it) might wanna go farther up the ladder to 25+ but if you were to ask all of them to take a poll of which is generally harder to play on, they'd obviously say fog of war. I promise that we know the map off by hand, but it adds just a tiny bit of scouting need, making sure your army is on the right path, making sure the expos are scanned.
Point is, if you are trying to say Fog of War has no effect on upper-level gamers... You are flat out incorrect.
"no FogofWar" - Are you sure you're addressing the thread subject specifically? It's not about fog of war, it's about black fog. So repeating my previous question, how does preexisting knowledge of the map layout have ANYTHING to do with skill or strategy? All that black fog does is ensure that people who've simply played the map before or more frequently have an advantage, which is flatout rewarding rote memorization on the basest level. This is wholly distinct from things like Build Orders, which must be strategically chosen based on race matchup, opponent's play-style, and often must be adapted to win when in-game circumstances shift, rather than the muscle memory of knowing to click one degree to the left at this one spot.
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all my SC2BW maps use Black Mask.
it's actually kinda necessary since without it you can drone drill without having to scout up the ramp...
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"taking away any type of innovation and creativity so that everyone can generally know exactly what to do or where to go, let us all be conformists because its "practical"
Thanks Merlin, I 'm however not sure everyone will get the degree to which this conformity affects us all everyday of our o so short lives... or even get your second in your post.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 28 2010 15:33 Barrin wrote:
Map ->
Options ->
Unexplored Areas ->
change "Grey Mask" to "Black Mask"
note: as Terr mentioned, this makes the map 'custom' instead of 'melee'
I have never decided how I feel about the change TBH. I probably don't think it's a bad thing though.
Thank you for editor tips, I'm aware.. still it probably needed typing, every leak might be eye opener to some, so I gather you have not done any Black fog maps then, sensible if you feel it's not needed.
MavercK: "all my SC2BW maps use Black Mask."
yippi I'm not the only one to think that it's worth fighting for it then!
I thought drone drillin had been banned from blizzland as of 1.2?
To respond :
1/how does knowing the map by heart even enter the fray? Players learning the maps by heart is what we got right now, and is probably what most players will always be doing...
However there is such a thing as the random map playing + Show Spoiler +(it survived until w3 but is no more?)
You only need a fair start point, a GOOD map... that's the real rts...improv have no fear never surrender always be aware in "contact" and dishin 100% commitment, not like me getting good at how to pile up dishes quietly or polish m' boy's ass proper just cause I been doing it for so long!
2/specifics out the window, the black mask or black fog of war is a feature (how many to follow?) that was sacrificed on the altar of mediocrity (it f..ing should be in ladder... it's more compelling, favours playing lots of different of maps, raises your skill ceiling... I don't ask for all units to have attack move capabilities that'd be absurd, I'd like one for each race for instance.. that's widening the game... that's entertainment...
3/skill is subjective, I for one feel it takes more corones to comfortably jump into an unknown map that's all (the memory shite I care not about)... I think it's too easy the way it is in ladder (like I said a lot: I don't like people downsizing my fun (I get that to hook up addicts you have to give the first dose for free thank you (but past 30 fun has to be real fun, otherwise it's not (plus you open more parentheses than you might end up being able to close)))
4/I for one feel that in a 100 playable maps for a ladder pool, 50 should be featuring black fog for the first weeks that they are added... the argument that frequent flyer get frequent flyer miles is like arguing the egg and chicken routine...
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Black fog serves no purpose other than to reward the player who has played that map more. Sure, top players know the map, roughly, but the grey fog allows them to double check exactly where to send their troops.
Drone drilling doesn't work anyways.
There's no reason for it to be in ladder, other than to, again, give advantage to mass gamers.
It's only in the editor for the hardcore BW people and for UMS (to hide certain sections of the map).
If you want to play on black FoW maps, make them and play them with people who want to. Please don't constantly post about it (post in Questions, post asking why no one responded, others).
Also, please stop making random analogies. They really don't add to your argument, and really just left me confused as to what your actually point was.
Leaving out the run-on sentences would help as well.
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iGrok, thank you for posting, I again respectfully disagree..black fog has several important purposes:
leaving a trail for both players (marvelous for replays)
gives an authenticity to the deployment of your units
looks cool, it's the darkest black of the editor (!?)
makes scouting more important then producing workers and set them to multiple ralies around and around to mine some gold... + Show Spoiler +snow white is cute but i'm not a dwarf... if you don't get ANY of my analogies perhaps discussing the matter at hand would be more useful for everyone than discussing said metaphors... you dish out the op's discussion's intent like you've never even tested it...?
ahhh I'll redirect you to my previous posts.. the game is dumbed down without it.. progamers... who gives a toss? you are missing out without it..; I won't go on...
To answer your points, If you've read a little sun zu: I want everyone to play black fog maps..
I'll settle for what the community does.
About UMS, I haven't been very thorough in searching, however I feel you are misinformed on the real (huge) difference there is between melee and ums as put into Black fog perspective... Black fog requires no "meddling", no prior tutoring to use or anything, black fog is about as not ums as they come, as far as features go.
As for "Leaving out the run-on sentences would help as well."... well I guess not.
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On December 28 2010 18:14 baskerville wrote:"taking away any type of innovation and creativity so that everyone can generally know exactly what to do or where to go, let us all be conformists because its "practical" Thanks Merlin, I 'm however not sure everyone will get the degree to which this conformity affects us all everyday of our o so short lives... or even get your second in your post. + Show Spoiler +On December 28 2010 15:33 Barrin wrote:
Map ->
Options ->
Unexplored Areas ->
change "Grey Mask" to "Black Mask"
note: as Terr mentioned, this makes the map 'custom' instead of 'melee'
I have never decided how I feel about the change TBH. I probably don't think it's a bad thing though.Thank you for editor tips, I'm aware.. still it probably needed typing, every leak might be eye opener to some, so I gather you have not done any Black fog maps then, sensible if you feel it's not needed. MavercK: "all my SC2BW maps use Black Mask." yippi I'm not the only one to think that it's worth fighting for it then! I thought drone drillin had been banned from blizzland as of 1.2? To respond : 1/how does knowing the map by heart even enter the fray? Players learning the maps by heart is what we got right now, and is probably what most players will always be doing... However there is such a thing as the random map playing + Show Spoiler +(it survived until w3 but is no more?) tribe filled with a certain caliber of player who PREFER to play maps that they discover ingame! You only need a fair start point, a GOOD map... that's the real rts...improv have no fear never surrender always be aware in "contact" and dishin 100% commitment, not like me getting good at how to pile up dishes quietly or polish m' boy's ass proper just cause I been doing it for so long! 2/specifics out the window, the black mask or black fog of war is a feature (how many to follow?) that was sacrificed on the altar of mediocrity (it f..ing should be in ladder... it's more compelling, favours playing lots of different of maps, raises your skill ceiling... I don't ask for all units to have attack move capabilities that'd be absurd, I'd like one for each race for instance.. that's widening the game... that's entertainment... 3/skill is subjective, I for one feel it takes more corones to comfortably jump into an unknown map that's all (the memory shite I care not about)... I think it's too easy the way it is in ladder (like I said a lot: I don't like people downsizing my fun (I get that to hook up addicts you have to give the first dose for free thank you (but past 30 fun has to be real fun, otherwise it's not (plus you open more parentheses than you might end up being able to close))) 4/I for one feel that in a 100 playable maps for a ladder pool, 50 should be featuring black fog for the first weeks that they are added... the argument that frequent flyer get frequent flyer miles is like arguing the egg and chicken routine...
#1: [it's really two-parted]
Re: "it's already done now"
A) You have causality reversed. It only happens now as an effect of people playing frequently, not as a motivating cause as to why people would play frequently. This distinction is important because in the status quo, it doesn't really play a role in winning if one already can know the general map layout regardless of memorization.
B) Even then, black fog would exacerbate the problem by making gameplay more contingent on their ability to memorize. The fact that people can see layout without memorization would make up for not having memorized every last detail of the map, whereas if black fog existed, there's a 100% discrepancy between the person with memorized data and the one without.
Re: Random Map Playing/Playing maps neither player knows about
This is also problematic in a ton of ways.
A) this ups the influence of randomness a TON. Scouting your opponent becomes contingent on your chance ability to click some random point on the black minimap more accurately than your opponent. Especially given SC2's greater emphasis on scouting and strategic builds [ie needing to scout air as a Zerg to properly respond, needing to scout cheese, etc.], this threatens to crucially throw the game off balance.
B) There would be nowhere near enough mapmaking to satisfy demands, especially with "quality" maps. Under such a system, once a SINGLE game is played on that map, it goes in the trash bin.
C) The only real claim to "skill/strategical" benefit here is that it in essence forces players to become more adaptable [in the context of new surroundings]. But adaptability is already embedded in the system in i. reacting to opponent builds, along with ii. reacting/adapting in terms of your opponent's positioning [for instance, TvT tank battles]. Reacting to seeing a funky doodad in a random spot really has no significance then. So while there's little to gain, on the other hand there's a pretty significant factor of arbitrariness under the previous points mentioned.
[I'll address rest tomorrow, gotta go for the moment]
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Current fog also leaves a trail in replays, but you can see the terrain under it -> better for replays. Viewers can see both the terrain AND where a player has been.
It's "authentic"... just think like you have an overhead map. Which you do because in the lobby there's one.
Ok, it looks cool. But i'd rather see all the terrain that people are starting to really spend a lot of time on.
Scouting is never more important than producing workers. Ever. Even in SC/BW. Unless you're reacting to something, executing a specific BO that requires you to cut workers, or you've saturated 2-3 bases, you keep producing workers throughout the game.+ Show Spoiler +I understood most of your analogies...eventually. But they really just distract. Just make your point, and people will agree or not. Regarding the OP, the entire thread has moved beyond "has anyone published a BF map" to "BF: Good or bad?". My comments were a response to your previous post.
And as to "you haven't even tested it", I'm just going to rely on 11 years experience as an SC/BW gamer, and 9 years as a mapper.
The game is not dumbed down without it. Grey fog requires less wasteful apm, which allows better macro and micro. And better micro definitely isn't boring.
Re: Sun Tzu - Post the quote you're referring to, please.
Regarding UMS, you misunderstood me. Black Fog is useful in UMS games where the creator wants to keep unexplored terrain hidden on the minimap.
Yes, it would. Try it.
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@ LlamaNamedOsama
In every case, repetition in maps get's you an advantage... we have too much knowledge of Kulas Ravine (I picked the first name to come to mind, it's too much about every blizz map)... because no other melee maps are played (OVERALL %wise and other sugar coated ways of saying "most of us")).
There are no more advantages with black fog than with the gray discovered down scaled current ladder fog, people with a good eye for layouts will always catch on quicker and leave it at that, that's the case regardless on any layout type game.
Furthermore "accepted" black fog maps would be a MAPMAKER'S WORTHY CHALLENGE to produce... not to mention a delight to see uncovered by high level of play.. it'd take a lot of guts to declare your map "fair" wouldn't it?
"there would be nowhere near enough mapmaking to satisfy demands", you kidding right? have been to get a headcount on the number of maps done after less than a year...? I'm not saying quantity is quality, I just mean loads of good mappers, some have been doing it for 2 decades.
"Under such a system, once a SINGLE game is played on that map, it goes in the trash bin"
no, it rotates to the back of your own random map pool
"...forces players to become more adaptable", if you mean in a general I agree, the new would be newish never unknown, it's always sc2 melee not astrophysics, the reaper always needs a supply depot + Show Spoiler +(seeing how non progressive you guys all are is jaw breaking)
I feel it would benefit everyone!
I so agree with the positioning bid: "reacting/adapting in terms of your opponent's positioning", andddd alas I agree that it does steer away from something "purer", but I'm entirely sure that only one style is not what I want... what most people want ?
Most people've yet to fully realize what they could do to further their own exponential addict needs, once that awareness has been reached, it'll be pure gold to be a part of this community, prevalent or not.
"Reacting to seeing a funky doodad in a random spot really has no significance then", have you heard of the doodad on Xelnaga caverns (thread about a doodad making him loose the game... I smiled for a half hour, like someone you've just given his full loaded wallet back to, we should give the doodad a name: + Show Spoiler +
@iGrok
can't wait to duke it out, I'll be na sometime in january (long postal delay), I feel you crushing me will not convince you that I'm wrong, on the contrary! Cause you'll have more fun playing back and forth with me (probably too old for any of you diamond I got time on my hands players apm wise) than you would with "standard" play...I hope. Until then, we'll argue on semantics: i think it's more important to scout then to get one extra guy, what you'd favor... honestly I'm just happy we're discussing the issue... and hopefully will be doing so a lot, hope you'll join me in admitting that the fun part is play and it's many natures...
I don't quote japonese sorry. I'm sure the jist would be: in order to win, others must loose... don't enter the arena of combat without purpose to win, otherwise you've lost already... maybe the first is from "the prince" from Machiavelli ..??!
"better micro", all for it mate, I think black fog requires more "intelligent" micro, and that's why I wanna see how idrA scouts in a map he's never "been in", would we see iceman finally sacrifice a drone?
I'll try to refrain on the cacophony, but it does not make any difference, I'd hope passion would wake up some of them lurkers, wrong!
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How does black fog require more "intelligent" micro?
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Sweden33719 Posts
Not this shit again -______- Black fog adds nothing.
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Thanks.
Its nice for nostalgia. But in game, its just annoying.
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To each his own, you're just missing out...
Bravo for tl favorites' insights, I'd much rather have a thread link from any of the people who've declared all high and mighty that they've had to withstand "this shit" once already... excuse me for impeding on something so tiresome (bet the worker to the unbeknown destroyed rocks was more flashy, still it was useful discussing it..no?).
Well I'll still be happy with what I got.
Oh iGrok, what I meant by "intelligent" micro was just my way of saying just plain "early micro", cause there sure as hell is not a lot of micro when you indeed know the layout by heart and your job is lessened by worker scouting ai (who knows the layout already, even with black mask) ..and you're having no fun in your game unless everything is reassuring and as it should be... it's more interesting micro for the same inverse reason that keeping multiple queued actions is good for the game, because it's (again) steering the game towards the most interesting and varied array of gameplay... you were less cozied in at the start of the game, you are more on edge when trying to find out where your opponent spawned... that's the equalizer in rts... the fear of fear itself, I like that and there's less of it for us that do enjoy it.
I'll stop ranting with this post + Show Spoiler +, don't worry the thread'll get buried soon enough... lurkers forever on tl.
Just this..., I wanted to know what people thought. I know what some of you guys think now, so thank you... euhhh no... for everyone thank you, exept Jinro... I don't see anything remotely useful in what he said, explaining why this such a shitty discussion for him would have been easy, but that's not how tl rolls and that's probably why he's as rude as most of the tl juvenile posters are regularly and this on all kind of subjects.
The agrro in sc2 i love, the agrro on tl makes me banned... see ya or rather read ya.
edit: Yay the thread is dead (on page 2), much rejoicing Yay!
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It's easier because it gives me (a diamond player who doesn't play all that much) a better grasp on the strategic layout of the map since I havn't played the map 1000 times and I don't know it inside out. If I know he's going drops I can see with ease where I might be able to interceptor or where I should build a turret. Or which attackroute is he most likely to use with the tech he have, Or is this chasm over here a good place to hide my dark shrine?
Bottom line: I think seeing the entire map just creates an overview that I'm very comfortable with, and most people who plays the same amount as me will agree. It's pretty noobfriendly which is probably also the purpose of the design.
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I'm with Jinro on this one.
Black fog matters zip in pro, cuz ppl are gonna have played the same map so many times they know every nook and cranny. Same goes for anyone who has played 100+ games (unless you're a slow learner... sorry). The lack of complete obscurity makes it easier for people to get into new maps (so you don't see a wall of "1v1 Python newbs only!!" when you hit alt+j) and anybody who is remotely half decent at the game is going to figure out the map after a game or two anyway. If you're the kind who has to rely on your opponent not knowing maps in order to win, then... go back to copper league... or something...
that's my two cents.
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there's a white fog emitter and you might be able to change its texture color inside editor
(not sure how coding it to do special effects would work..like giving it cloaking/phasing)
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i thought this thread had something to do with the black fog on lost for a second hahaha
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On December 28 2010 21:07 baskerville wrote:@ LlamaNamedOsama In every case, repetition in maps get's you an advantage... we have too much knowledge of Kulas Ravine (I picked the first name to come to mind, it's too much about every blizz map)... because no other melee maps are played (OVERALL %wise and other sugar coated ways of saying "most of us")). There are no more advantages with black fog than with the gray discovered down scaled current ladder fog, people with a good eye for layouts will always catch on quicker and leave it at that, that's the case regardless on any layout type game. Furthermore "accepted" black fog maps would be a MAPMAKER'S WORTHY CHALLENGE to produce... not to mention a delight to see uncovered by high level of play.. it'd take a lot of guts to declare your map "fair" wouldn't it? "there would be nowhere near enough mapmaking to satisfy demands", you kidding right? have been to get a headcount on the number of maps done after less than a year...? I'm not saying quantity is quality, I just mean loads of good mappers, some have been doing it for 2 decades. "Under such a system, once a SINGLE game is played on that map, it goes in the trash bin" no, it rotates to the back of your own random map pool "...forces players to become more adaptable", if you mean in a general I agree, the new would be newish never unknown, it's always sc2 melee not astrophysics, the reaper always needs a supply depot + Show Spoiler +(seeing how non progressive you guys all are is jaw breaking) , I feel it would benefit everyone! I so agree with the positioning bid: "reacting/adapting in terms of your opponent's positioning", andddd alas I agree that it does steer away from something "purer", but I'm entirely sure that only one style is not what I want... what most people want ? Most people've yet to fully realize what they could do to further their own exponential addict needs, once that awareness has been reached, it'll be pure gold to be a part of this community, prevalent or not. "Reacting to seeing a funky doodad in a random spot really has no significance then", have you heard of the doodad on Xelnaga caverns (thread about a doodad making him loose the game... I smiled for a half hour, like someone you've just given his full loaded wallet back to, we should give the doodad a name: + Show Spoiler +@iGrok can't wait to duke it out, I'll be na sometime in january (long postal delay), I feel you crushing me will not convince you that I'm wrong, on the contrary! Cause you'll have more fun playing back and forth with me (probably too old for any of you diamond I got time on my hands players apm wise) than you would with "standard" play...I hope. Until then, we'll argue on semantics: i think it's more important to scout then to get one extra guy, what you'd favor... honestly I'm just happy we're discussing the issue... and hopefully will be doing so a lot, hope you'll join me in admitting that the fun part is play and it's many natures... I don't quote japonese sorry. I'm sure the jist would be: in order to win, others must loose... don't enter the arena of combat without purpose to win, otherwise you've lost already... maybe the first the prince from Machiavelli ..??! "better micro", all for it mate, I think black fog requires more "intelligent" micro, and that's why I wanna see how idrA scouts in a map he's never "been in", would we see iceman finally sacrifice a drone? I'll try to refrain on the cacophony, but it does not make any difference, I'd hope passion would wake up some of them lurkers, wrong!
So first I'll quickly note for your #3 and 4: your main point really is solely that it would be "cool."
Inserting randomness into the system, while creating a sense of novelty, is not suitable for a level of ladder play which is focused on skill. Feel free to go ahead and do it with UMS, but your arbitrary conception of "coolness" is not a sufficient reason to destabilize a system that wants to focus on balance and the encouragement of skill-based play.
You said that skill is subjective, but that's absolutely not true - if that were so, neither brood war nor sc2 would have even remotely developed to the extent they have now with professional tournaments and players. Heck, why let people choose races then instead of forcing everyone to always play random?.
You're also not responding to my statements. You're just repeating that "right now people who play the maps more frequently already have an advantage." No, they do not have an advantage because all someone less familiar has to do is USE THEIR EYES and they will see that map layout. If there was black fog, THEN that pre-memorized map familiarity actually has a role because players would actually use it. There's zero advantage to someone being familiar with metalopolis when a n00b can see the exact same layout by scrolling to that same part of the map.
There is a difference between knowledge of how to implement a strategy on kulas ravine [for ex, nazguls blink stalker use against idra in MLG] versus simple knowledge of its actual layout. Despite newness to the game, any smart player can utilize cliffs strategically [see one of Boxer's early VoDs against IdrA where he parked tanks on the cliff in Xelnaga Caverns - despite the fact that opponents had long played that map before him, all it took was his intelligence and a quick glance at the terran to utilize that strategy in that way].
Furthermore "accepted" black fog maps would be a MAPMAKER'S WORTHY CHALLENGE to produce... not to mention a delight to see uncovered by high level of play.. it'd take a lot of guts to declare your map "fair" wouldn't it?
Again, all you're doing is saying "IT'D BE REALLY COOL" in more words. I'm addressing maps specifically in the next part of your post:
"there would be nowhere near enough mapmaking to satisfy demands", you kidding right? have been to get a headcount on the number of maps done after less than a year...? I'm not saying quantity is quality, I just mean loads of good mappers, some have been doing it for 2 decades.
Of course you're not saying quantity is quality, and that's exactly my point - you can't. Out of a 1,000 maps produced, maybe a dozen might be suitable for use in ladder. How many custom maps have you seen that have been determined good enough to use by tournaments? Look at reality, bud. Even if you totaled all of the bw iccup maps ever made [over what, a decade?], you would have nowhere near the number of maps necessary to always keep them fresh within a year. Even if you had 100 maps, top-levels gamers who regularly play more 1,000 games in 3 months would be familiar.
it rotates to the back of your own random map pool
A random map pool would be entirely different from having black fog. Hell, you could implement a random map pool, even ask for more diversity in custom maps [aka what everyone has already said a million times, specifically wondering if more iccup maps could be used], and that would solve your problem. Black fog in itself would be pointless.
Also, that's kinda already what happens in battle.net. You get a random map from the pool. If you want that pool to CONSTANTLY CHANGE, then again you need thousands upon thousands of BALANCED maps. That is not a "challenge," that is a high-level standard because while you're thinking about how "cool" it'd be, there are pro-gamers who maintain living based on competitive play premised upon fair circumstances.
If anything, this line of yours sums it all up:
but I'm entirely sure that only one style is not what I want... what most people want ?
This is just some random idea that you think is cool because it throws in "randomness" which gives it the illusion of novelty, but by definition, "randomness" means arbitrariness rather than skill or strategy, which is the vital bedrock that surrounds the Brood War quality gaming you're appealing to in the OP.
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What? How was black fog a good thing? Playing on new maps is always such a pain in the ass untill you learn them too with black fog...
Removing it is a step forward, end of story
On December 28 2010 21:07 baskerville wrote:+ Show Spoiler +(seeing how non progressive you guys all are is jaw breaking)
All of us are non-progressive, but you who wants to return to an old system which gives a person whos memorized a map even more advantage over someone who has no clue whats where than they already would have based on things like knowing where to tank drop?
Quit trolling
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don't worry the thread'll get buried soon enough
This is a good idea. Lets just all let this thread die now, mmk?
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On December 29 2010 02:41 lurkerbelow wrote:
there's a white fog emitter and you might be able to change its texture color inside editor
(not sure how coding it to do special effects would work..like giving it cloaking/phasing)
Nice, thanks for posting, I'd like to pick your brain, you get access to mine anytime.
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Going back to SC1 after playing SC2 for a while, I couldn't remember where anything was on Lost Temple because of the black fog.
But Starcraft 2 Brood War (by MavercK) does have black fog.
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Before getting SC2 (today lol) I played the SC and BW campaign to get the story. I also played a few games against the AI , and that black fog is extremly annoying. Not knowing where is the closest natural , where the enemy may spawn , and also the ugly black. They did well removing the black fog imo.
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wtf, whats the point of black fog? this sounds like more people who are just hopelessly nostalgic for BW
for pro games, people memorize maps well enough for it not to matter. for non pro players, all itll do is make people practice in single player mode until theyve memorized it enough to not worry about black fog. black fog unnecessarily punishes the newest players based purely on memorization. it adds no strategic or excitement value to the game
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if I looking for fog
him name is hopkin black fog
P.S. I'll find my fog
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Who killed Black Fog?
I did.
My real question is, has anyone published a functional Black Fog map ...?!?
Not that I know of.
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United States10100 Posts
personally, when i played a map i havent played in a while, or havent played a lot in sc1, i blind scout with like my 8th worker. i dont even know where the natural is and stuff. however, to incorporate that in sc2 right now, where the "NoBlackFog" has been here for months, people could begin to really hate Blizzard. what im trying to say, is that people are used to sc2 with no black fog. lets not change it.
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So basically, everyone except for a few dissenters agrees. So... time for it to die?
Lets just all let this thread sink please? No reason to keep bumping it up.
And no I didn't bump, was already the #1 thread.
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EPT
